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The Gaming Group Veto

Geoff Thomas
United Kingdom
Enfield
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My gaming time has been at a premium recently so when I do get a chance to sit down and play some games, I try to play games that I really like. Unfortunately as a gaming group we have eclectic tastes and while we mostly enjoy the same games, some stuff just doesn't go over at all well with some of the group. For example, I really enjoy Cosmic Encounter but one of my friends really doesn't like it. Consequently, I don't often suggest it since I know he doesn't like it.

Now there are a few games that I don't really like to play and most of them are shared by my group, but there are some that my friends really like and I don't. Glenn Drover's Empires: The Age of Discovery is one of those games. Unfortunately, as a gaming group we're quite an undecisive bunch and since one of my friends suggested a preference towards playing Age of Empires I reluctantly agreed to play. Now Age of Empires does a lot of things right and would be a great worker placement game except for two fatal flaws. The discovery mechanic and the initial turn order.

Now I'm not trying to use these as an excuse for my poor gameplay since I didn't lose because of them, but I feel my friend did. He was last on the first turn whereby almost everyone's first action is to take a building. Now in subsequent turns you can move yourself up the turn order to get first pick, but randomly choosing the turn order to begin the game just seems like a unfair advantage for getting the best buildings. Why they couldn't have implemented some sort of bidding system to allow you to bid to go first is beyond me.

Secondly is the horrid discovery mechanic. For a game built around completely open information, Age of Empires decided to implement a huge luck based element. So yes, while I can appreciate that there is an element of risk/reward, it just doesn't fit into the rest of the game whereby the only risk you take is not grabbing a set action first. We already play with an adjusted rule whereby you only lose half your points worth of troops it still feels like Lady Luck is playing too much of a part. My friend must have missed 4 discoveries by only 1 person each time and lost 10 or so VP because of it which may have won him. Not only that, some of the discoveries are simply better than others while equally difficult (I appreciate there is a difference between the cards and chits, but each subset has ones which are better than others in it). If you are going to have random elements, at least balance out the gain from the similarly difficult elements so one discovery isn't clearly better than another.

The more I play Age of Empires, the more I dislike the game. I feel bad "vetoing" it and refusing to play because I just feel like I'm a small child throwing my toys out of the pram but equally I really don't enjoy playing it and would rather be doing something else. But it would be hypocritical to veto a game I don't want to play and then be upset when others veto games they don't like. I don't know what the answer is, all I know is that the black ships in Cosmic Encounter: Cosmic Conflict look really cool and I want to play with them...
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Subscribe sub options Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:07 pm
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Harold Coleman
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Geoff, I agree with you about the two flaws in the game, but that doesn't prevent me from liking AoE III. Although I have only played the game twice, I have read most of the posts and I think I have a good feel for it. Let me briefly discuss each of your issues:

1. Going last in turn order in a 5-player game doesn't mean you're out of it after Turn 1. While the other players are getting buildings, jump on the merchant and first (or later) turn initiative. This will give you the money you need ($14 for going 5th, $5 for placing the merchant in the colonization space Turn 2 and $1+ for initiative) to buy TWO buildings in Turn 2 when no one else has enough to buy any. You can wait to place your last Turn 2 colonists on two build spaces (since no competition there) AND you have free choice of 4 new buildings compared to those who chose late in turn 1. I think this more than makes up for the fact you did not get a building in Turn 1.

2. I agree the Discovery mechanic is flawed. However, it is not without its fun and suspense. I usually use 4 colonist strength to discover the initial territories and 5 to discover the cards, thus minimizing the chance of not succeeding but still taking a small amount of risk. I like your idea of allowing half the colonists to remain in the Discovery box if the mission fails. I also have another variant idea worthy of consideration: If you have any colonists in excess of what it takes to defeat the natives on a card, you get to place them in the colony IN ADDITION to the one you're normally allowed. So if you go for five colonist strength for an initial territory and there are only 3 natives, then you get to place THREE colonists, immediately gaining the resource and qualifying for victory points without having to place any other colonists there. This also compensates for the bad luck when you send five colonists only to find a measly two natives with fewer VPs and gold. If you think that's too great an incentive, limit the colonists to simply the excess left over after defeating the natives (i.e. not include the normal 1 colonist). With this variant, you could send 6-7 colonists to the region, leaving those in excess of the amount needed to defeat the natives. This variant would put a greater emphasis on Discovery, making the game a better one in my opinion. Of course, it changes the game a bit, too. Still, those players putting too many colonists in Discovery leave juicy actions for the others. What do you think? I may post this in the variant section of AoE III.
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  • Posted Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:08 pm
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Harold Coleman
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By the way, I guess I'm more aligned all the way around with the rest of your group... I HATE Cosmic Encounter. My reasons? The game is over too quickly for my tastes and I simply HATE the allying aspect of the game. In the second game I played, 3 out of the 5 players "won" because they all simultaneously scored their 5th outpost. Also, while I agree the characters are fun, they change the rules too much for my tastes. There is so much chaos in the game that it's hard to manage any sort of strategy. And if you draw good cards and combos, it's nearly impossible to keep you from winning.
 
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  • Posted Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:13 pm
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Geoff Thomas
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hgcoleman wrote:
1. Going last in turn order in a 5-player game doesn't mean you're out of it after Turn 1. While the other players are getting buildings, jump on the merchant and first (or later) turn initiative. This will give you the money you need ($14 for going 5th, $5 for placing the merchant in the colonization space Turn 2 and $1+ for initiative) to buy TWO buildings in Turn 2 when no one else has enough to buy any. You can wait to place your last Turn 2 colonists on two build spaces (since no competition there) AND you have free choice of 4 new buildings compared to those who chose late in turn 1. I think this more than makes up for the fact you did not get a building in Turn 1.


Harold, thanks for the great comments. You make a good point here. I do think this is the lesser of the two problems and the strategy you outline does indeed balance it out somewhat. While generally this is the case, there is the uncommon situation where the "Immediately gain $20" building comes out during the first turn. The player who takes this is then always going to compete on the second turn for a building.

This also on works in 5 player when you only need the 1 coin from initiative. In 4 players this breaks down since you now need 2 coin from going second. We had a situation arise later in our game whereby 2 of us needed 2 coin from the initiative action. However, neither of us got it because each of the other players knew going first would give us a building.

I don't think my problem is that it's that significant. I think I just feel like your starting position pushes you towards a particular strategy depending on which building you get.

hgcoleman wrote:
2. I agree the Discovery mechanic is flawed. However, it is not without its fun and suspense. I usually use 4 colonist strength to discover the initial territories and 5 to discover the cards, thus minimizing the chance of not succeeding but still taking a small amount of risk. I like your idea of allowing half the colonists to remain in the Discovery box if the mission fails. I also have another variant idea worthy of consideration: If you have any colonists in excess of what it takes to defeat the natives on a card, you get to place them in the colony IN ADDITION to the one you're normally allowed. So if you go for five colonist strength for an initial territory and there are only 3 natives, then you get to place THREE colonists, immediately gaining the resource and qualifying for victory points without having to place any other colonists there. This also compensates for the bad luck when you send five colonists only to find a measly two natives with fewer VPs and gold. If you think that's too great an incentive, limit the colonists to simply the excess left over after defeating the natives (i.e. not include the normal 1 colonist). With this variant, you could send 6-7 colonists to the region, leaving those in excess of the amount needed to defeat the natives. This variant would put a greater emphasis on Discovery, making the game a better one in my opinion. Of course, it changes the game a bit, too. Still, those players putting too many colonists in Discovery leave juicy actions for the others. What do you think? I may post this in the variant section of AoE III.


I do think this would be an interesting variant. I might suggest it to my group if we ever play again. I forgot to mention originally that we also use a variant whereby failed discoveries are replaced rather than remains face up since it is too easy for those following up a discovery action.

I still dislike however how equally difficult discovery cards give uneven rewards. My friend discovered a 4 difficult card and I think got 3 base money, 2 per soldier with 5 VPs. I on the other hand got a 4 difficulty with 2 base money, 1 per soldier and 4 VPs. I really don't like this luck approach.

hgcoleman wrote:
By the way, I guess I'm more aligned all the way around with the rest of your group... I HATE Cosmic Encounter. My reasons? The game is over too quickly for my tastes and I simply HATE the allying aspect of the game. In the second game I played, 3 out of the 5 players "won" because they all simultaneously scored their 5th outpost. Also, while I agree the characters are fun, they change the rules too much for my tastes. There is so much chaos in the game that it's hard to manage any sort of strategy. And if you draw good cards and combos, it's nearly impossible to keep you from winning.


Interestingly the reasons you list for hating the game are precisely why I love it. I'm a great fan of 3 hour long strategic games but Cosmic Encounter is 30 minutes of pure chaos. I don't think I've laughed as hard as I have in any other game than in Cosmic Encounter. I think you have to look at it as a social game rather than any sort of strategy game.
 
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  • Posted Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:35 pm
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Tim
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For me the issue is not about AOE 3 specifically but about the ability of a game group to veto a game.

And the short answer to this is compromise.

I am going to make some assumptions here.
You have a regular game group.
You play with the same people (roughly) and it is not a club so you are only playing one game at a time with that group.

Lets play out two different scenarios.
1) Anyone can veto a game
2) There is no veto allowed - or "suck it up, smile and enjoy the game"

Lets look at scenario 1.
With veto allowed you may end up playing a game that everyone can half enjoy but no one really loves. And I think this happens more often than not.
Lets use game ratings as an example.
Everyone wants to play their 10 game, but someone in the group will think it is a 5 game, so veto. This continues until everyone agrees on a game that is usually in the 6-7 range for everyone.
The pool of available games diminish and are all within the 6-7 range.

Time for scenario 2
It's now your turn to pick a game. Go pick it. You save time by not making decisions about which game to play. You get to play a 10 game and someone at the table is really enjoying it.
So its not your turn to pick. To be able to play your 10 game, you need to allow others to play theirs so at this point in time, shut up, smile and do your best. Again someone at the table is really enjoying this game.

I suggest you talk about it with your game group and let them decide which scenario they want to use. We have been going with scenario 2 for about a year after doing scenario 1 for the first year. I much prefer scenario 2.
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  • Posted Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:16 pm
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Harold Coleman
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Yes, I had thought of the "$20 building" and also of the 4 player issues you mentioned. At least in a 4p game, the 4th player WILL get a building in turn 1, or maybe wait to get the "best" of those in turn 2 if nothing grabs his fancy. Yes, in my 5p scenario, he will have competition in turn 2 with the player who got the $20 building, but it still (arguably) compensates for not getting a building in turn 1. Concerning your comment that "your starting position pushes you towards a particular strategy depending on which building you get," isn't it rather the building you get regardless of starting position pushes you towards a particular strategy? However, I see your point, first player gets his choice of buildings, so he can more easily choose one that matches his choice of strategies.

Ah, I forgot to address your issue with uneven rewards for the Discovery tiles and cards. I'm not sure of the reason for this. At least the victory points are consistent for the number of natives, i.e. 4 VP's for 1-2 natives, 5 VP's for 3, 6 VP's for 4 and 7 VP's for 5. It's only the money that varies per type of tile and it makes it pretty speculative for placing a soldier on Discovery. The only thing I could see to even it up is that if you get fewer coins for the Soldier than the number of natives on the card, that the soldier could be one of the "extra" colonists that remain for "over-discovering" per my variant. I kind of feel this issue is secondary to the others and my solution may over-complicate the variant. Of course, this does not even address the different base coin reward differences (though minor) for a particular number of natives. I just don't know why the designer did this???

What I've found about boardgaming is that someone's poison is another player's potion. Not very game suits every player. But there are a lot of games out there to choose from, and some mechanics suit me where others don't. For example, I just got Egizia and love the mechanics, but a game like Taj Mahal with similar great mechanics of its own just doesn't grab me. I'm more of a strategist. I can't stand games like Munchkin or Bang, for example, and Cosmic comes closer to those than it does a strategy game. If I want to play a quick 30-45 minute game, I'll suggest Dominion or RftG.
 
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  • Edited Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:31 pm
  • Posted Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:28 pm
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Russell Dewhurst
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Quote:
Why they couldn't have implemented some sort of bidding system to allow you to bid to go first is beyond me.


Appendix 1 in the rulebook does detail an auction system for bidding for turn order. It's labelled "for expert players only" presumably because the first couple of times you play it's hard to know what to bid.
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  • Posted Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:54 pm
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Geoff Thomas
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red turtle wrote:
For me the issue is not about AOE 3 specifically but about the ability of a game group to veto a game.

And the short answer to this is compromise.

I am going to make some assumptions here.
You have a regular game group.
You play with the same people (roughly) and it is not a club so you are only playing one game at a time with that group.


Great comments Tim. I've always been hesitant to go for the scenario 2 route but perhaps it's time to discuss it with my group. I think my problem stems from the fact that while we don't have an agreed veto, there's that social "rule" whereby we don't want to upset each other and force them to play something they don't like. The problem with this is that we each have our own view on what's socially "acceptable" so some people will be more forceful in saying what they will and won't play while others will be much more passive (which is where I believe I sit) and it's this disparity which causes issues.

I think the problem with scenario 2 is that some people might feel marginalised. Some might say that if you don't enjoy many games with your gaming group then you should find a new gaming group but that's not always possible. But if you're the outlier of a group, you may only get a game you like every 4th game whereby the other 3 choose games they all like and 75% of the time are playing a fantastic game. As such, you're spending the majority of your time playing games you don't really like, so why bother turning up?

I don't know what the answer is, perhaps just biting the bullet and going for scenario 2 will work out or perhaps I just need to a bit more forceful in saying what I want to play.
 
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  • Posted Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:06 am
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Geoff Thomas
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hgcoleman wrote:
What I've found about boardgaming is that someone's poison is another player's potion. Not very game suits every player. But there are a lot of games out there to choose from, and some mechanics suit me where others don't.


Totally agreed. Unfortunately though we can't all find a gaming group who have the same poisons and potions and as Tim aluded to, should it be a case where you occassionally drink some poison so you can have your favourite potion or should you all try and drink some mild potion?

To complicate things further, it's not a binary of like and don't like. Some things you enjoy more than others and when you overlap it's not always to the same degree and you've got multiple people, all overlapping with each other trying to make everyone happy.

Perhaps someone should design a game modelling the social interaction of playing boardgames whereby our goal is to maximise the total happiness. Perhaps then we could work out an answer.
 
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  • Edited Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:13 am
  • Posted Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:11 am
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Geoff Thomas
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angelgabriel wrote:
Quote:
Why they couldn't have implemented some sort of bidding system to allow you to bid to go first is beyond me.


Appendix 1 in the rulebook does detail an auction system for bidding for turn order. It's labelled "for expert players only" presumably because the first couple of times you play it's hard to know what to bid.


I never knew. Thanks Russell, I shall have to investigate next time.
 
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  • Posted Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:14 am
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Tim
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AdmiralGT wrote:

I think the problem with scenario 2 is that some people might feel marginalised. Some might say that if you don't enjoy many games with your gaming group then you should find a new gaming group but that's not always possible. But if you're the outlier of a group, you may only get a game you like every 4th game whereby the other 3 choose games they all like and 75% of the time are playing a fantastic game. As such, you're spending the majority of your time playing games you don't really like, so why bother turning up?


I think you raise a fantastic point and there is no right answer to that. You have to find your own path on what you are prepared to compromise on. Supply and demand is a factor.
If you prefer ameritrash and your group in general are eurogamers then I can see that can become as issue. Not an easy issue to solve.

If you are committed to the group for other reasons then maybe those reasons are a bigger priority anyway, so again smile, play nice and have fun.

Interesting dilemma.
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  • Posted Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:01 am
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Les Haskell
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red turtle wrote:
For me the issue is not about AOE 3 specifically but about the ability of a game group to veto a game.

And the short answer to this is compromise.

I am going to make some assumptions here.
You have a regular game group.
You play with the same people (roughly) and it is not a club so you are only playing one game at a time with that group.

Lets play out two different scenarios.
1) Anyone can veto a game
2) There is no veto allowed - or "suck it up, smile and enjoy the game"

Lets look at scenario 1.
With veto allowed you may end up playing a game that everyone can half enjoy but no one really loves. And I think this happens more often than not.
Lets use game ratings as an example.
Everyone wants to play their 10 game, but someone in the group will think it is a 5 game, so veto. This continues until everyone agrees on a game that is usually in the 6-7 range for everyone.
The pool of available games diminish and are all within the 6-7 range.

Time for scenario 2
It's now your turn to pick a game. Go pick it. You save time by not making decisions about which game to play. You get to play a 10 game and someone at the table is really enjoying it.
So its not your turn to pick. To be able to play your 10 game, you need to allow others to play theirs so at this point in time, shut up, smile and do your best. Again someone at the table is really enjoying this game.

I suggest you talk about it with your game group and let them decide which scenario they want to use. We have been going with scenario 2 for about a year after doing scenario 1 for the first year. I much prefer scenario 2.


Since I know very little about either of the games being discussed, I was also thinking more about the veto. I was thinking, what is worse: having to play a game I don't like as much or never playing a specific game because others don't like it as much. I think I would rather play the non-favored game than never get to play a favorite of mine.

So I was thinking about a system (Scenario 3?) that would allow everybody a chance to at least play the games they want even if others don't like them as much. What I was thinking attaches a value to the veto. Here's a general idea of how I think it could work:

You propose a game. The group votes on whether to play it or not. If the game gets voted down, the person who proposed it gets an extra vote the next time you vote on a game. Not every game needs to be voted on this way, but if you are proposing a game that is likely to be voted down you would invoke the special veto rule. Eventually you will build up enough votes to override the veto and play the game. Of course, since the group has already agreed to this special veto rule, they will happily play your proposed game. And maybe people will be less likely to vote down a game so as to not let someone accumulate votes (accumulated votes used later on your proposed game that fails again are retained - they are spent if used in other votes). I'm sure that most of the time the special veto rule will not even be invoked.
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  • Edited Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:14 pm
  • Posted Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:34 pm
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Tim
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interesting idea.

That kind of rule system brings up some questions for me.
Are you playing with friends or just gaming acquaintances?
Does the group you play understand what is required for the long term health of their gaming group?
Is the group happy with one member of your group not playing games they really enjoy?
How much do you each as individuals care about the enjoyment of the other players?

compromise and sacrifice and then balance
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  • Posted Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:07 am
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Gerald Katz
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hgcoleman wrote:
By the way, I guess I'm more aligned all the way around with the rest of your group... I HATE Cosmic Encounter. My reasons? The game is over too quickly for my tastes and I simply HATE the allying aspect of the game. In the second game I played, 3 out of the 5 players "won" because they all simultaneously scored their 5th outpost. Also, while I agree the characters are fun, they change the rules too much for my tastes. There is so much chaos in the game that it's hard to manage any sort of strategy. And if you draw good cards and combos, it's nearly impossible to keep you from winning.


The chaos and different rules breaking is the point of the game. As for alliances, everyone inviting everyone and everyone allying with 4 ships is novice play. Players with more experience don't always invite, don't go for joint victories, and don't always ally. Powers that affect alliances have their influence.

You're not supposed to have one particular strategy for every game. Each individual game is to have its own strategy based upon the powers in play and cards you have. Personally, I play with no strategy at all. I just adapt to circumstances.


 
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  • Posted Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:28 pm
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