The Hotness
Games|People|Company
Dominion: Dark Ages
Fantastiqa
Mage Knight: Board Game
Total War
Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)
Eclipse
Mice and Mystics
Dungeon Fighter
Collapsible D: The Final Minutes of the Titanic
Lords of Waterdeep
Agricola: All Creatures Big and Small
Libertalia
Android: Netrunner
Virgin Queen
The Lord of the Rings: Nazgul
A Game of Thrones: The Board Game (Second Edition)
Dominion
Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures Game
Infiltration
The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game
Among the Stars
Twilight Struggle
The Swarm
Agricola
1989: Dawn of Freedom
Goa
7 Wonders
Glory to Rome
Arkham Horror
Village
Ora et Labora
Battles of Westeros: House Baratheon Army Expansion
Through the Ages: A Story of Civilization
Thunder Road
Trajan
Zombicide
The Castles of Burgundy
7 Wonders: Cities
Ace of Spies
War of the Ring
Skyline
Space Alert
Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective
City of Horror
Race for the Galaxy
Dungeon Command: Sting of Lolth
Twilight Imperium (third edition)
Kingdom Builder
Le Havre
Battlestar Galactica

ekted's brain dump

Not as article-based as my real blog. Not as stream-of-consciousness-based as Twitter. Let's see how this goes...
Recommend
86 
 Thumb up
2.80
 tip
 Thumb up

Fighting Formations: Is it my ASL-lite?

Jim Cote
United States

Maine
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In the midst of a two-week-long effort writing an essay on real-time simulation in tactical wargames, Fighting Formations leaped onto my radar thanks to GMT's new Facebook presence. Although a rookie with Advanced Squad Leader, I am a huge fan, and for years have been looking for a lighter version of it to play with those not inclined to learn even the modest Starter Kit #1 ruleset. Combat Commander is too lateral/euro a design to be a contender, and Tide of Iron and Conflict of Heroes miss the mark with their handling of defensive fire, among other things.

So let's walk through a list of the ASL sequence of play, and other design concepts, to see how FF compares. Any differences noted are not intended to be criticisms, just comparisons. If you know ASL, this will help you understand FF, and vice versa. I am hopeful that FF will become my ASL-lite.

Phase Structure: ASL has a 2-player-turn, 8-phase structure. Various things happen automatically in many phases. Almost every action in FF happens by executing orders, which may occur in any order, and may be intermixed with the opponent's actions.

Total Unit Actions Over Time: In ASL, a given infantry unit may fire at full OR move and fire at half (during a player's half of a full turn), and then fire at full+ (during the opponent's half of a full turn). Given the right circumstances, every infantry unit could potentially fire 2+ times, or move and fire at 1.5+ times, during a full turn. The philosophy here is that everything is happening in real-time (and sort of simultaneously), so every unit is always doing something (if the player wishes it to). In FF, the ability of units to act is defined by command. The philosophy is that units not under command are more difficult to direct. More complex commands cost more initiative. Initiative goes back and forth as players spend it, which determines who acts next. This very similar to the time track in Thebes.

Rally Phase: In ASL, both players may attempt to rally all their broken units on each player's rally phase. In FF, rally occurs as an order, and is limited by command range and initiative costs. FF has no notion of broken units, simply units with hit markers on them (which have random penalties, as in CoH). In both games, it's easier to rally successfully in cover and with leadership.

Prep Fire Phase: In ASL, this is where every unit may fire on your player turn. Units that do fire may not move or fire later in that player turn. In FF, any units (within command/initiative limits) may fire during a fire attack order. And since units are not deactivated in any way, they may continue to fire for all future fire attack orders unless they acquire a hit marker preventing it.

Movement Phase: In ASL this is where almost all normal movement occurs. All units that didn't prep fire may move. Maximum distance is determined by leadership, terrain, and if the unit is using double-time. The opponent may use defensive fire during movement. This allows 1 fire attack per defending unit per movement POINT spent. Subsequent fire attacks have less effect and more restrictions. Fire attacks ONLY affect moving units. In FF, movement is by order. The opponent may use defensive fire during movement. This allows 1 fire attack per defending unit per movement ACTION taken (pivot, new hex). Defending units may continue to fire as the moving units act until they fail Rate of Fire (below). Fire attacks affect ALL units in the target hex.

Defensive Fire Phase: In ASL, this is after all movement is completed. The defender may now fire with any units that didn't fire during the movement phase (or still have fire opportunities remaining). This is irrelevant in FF, since fire attacks and defensive fire (Op Fire) are handled elsewhere. See Rate of Fire (below) for more detail on the overall balance of defensive fire.

Advancing Fire Phase: In ASL, units that did not prep fire (ie units that might have moved) may now fire at half their firepower. Units with certain inherent weapon types (Assault Fire Capability) get a bonus. In FF, a player may use the Assault order to move and fire in combination, at the cost of fewer movement points.

Rout Phase: In ASL, this is where broken units must/may move to cover from vulnerable positions. In some cases, the player has no control over where the units move. Units that cannot rout according to the rout rules are eliminated/captured. FF has no notion of routing. Units (with or without hit markers) may be repositioned at will using orders (assuming they have no hit marker that prevents movement).

Advance Phase: In ASL, most units may now move a single hex without any possibility of defensive fire. This notion is maintained almost exactly in FF, although it is an order, not a phase.

Close Combat Phase: In ASL, units in the same location now exchange fire, trying to eliminate each other outright. This is handled differently from fire attacks. Again, this notion is maintained almost exactly in FF, although it is an order, not a phase.

Rate of Fire: In ASL, most fire attacks allow for ROF on weapons that have them. If a given weapon has a ROF number, and the colored die (ASL uses a colored d6 and a white d6) used for the attack roll is less than or equal to that number, the weapon is considered NOT to have fired. ROF applies to Prep Fire and Defensive Fire, so units with such weapons have an unknown extra number of fire attacks possible.

In FF, ROF only applies to Op Fire (multiple attacks against moving units) and Return Fire (a single attack against a firing unit). Every unit has a ROF number. If EITHER die used for the attack roll is less than or equal to that number, after resolving the fire attack, the unit is spent for the duration of this order. Moving multiple units in a single order, therefore, splits the opponents attention. If he makes ROF with each Op Fire shot, he could fire at each moving unit with all of his units. But even with a ROF of 3, a unit has a 50% chance of being spent after each shot. Also (as I have just been corrected), some units have a higher defense value on their inactive side, which mitigates Op Fire against their hex when they are not moving.

Thus, in both games, ROF serves the same purpose and has similar effect in both extra firepower as well as the difficulty in choosing when and where to use a unit effectively.

Leadership: In ASL, leaders are actual counters with various numerical properties. They permit rally attempts, squad deployment, allow additional movement for squads they move with, have (usually) positive effects on fire attacks and morale checks (see Fire Attacks), and participate in Close Combat (melee). They may move alone or with other units.

In FF, leadership has been abstracted into markers that may be placed into play in any hex and at any time. The current command radius of the given player determines how far away from EVERY marker that units may be activated for the current order. Thus if all your units are within command range, you may activate them ALL to move with a single move order. Command markers have 2 sides: mission and tactical. Command markers go from an available box, onto the board as mission command, then flipped to tactical command, then moved to the pending box, then back to the available box, at the end of each game turn. Units under mission command activate for free. Units under tactical command activate for 1 additional initiative. Units not under command activate an additional 2 initiative. In summary, you can order a lot of units every order if you have a few command markers in play.

Fire Attacks: In ASL, an infantry fire attack has 2 basic values: firepower and modifiers. The firepower is the left number on the unit's chit (or the sum of the firepowers of all the units and support weapons forming a fire group). The FP may be halved (long range, subsequent defensive fire, advancing fire phase, etc), or doubled (point blank). This number is then rounded down to the column less than or equal to the firepower on the Infantry Fire Table (IFT). The modifiers are a sum of leadership, hindrances, target terrain, and movement penalties. Leadership is simply the leader's bonus (could be a penalty). The hindrance total is the SUM of every intervening hindrance from the source to the target hexes, exclusive (except for smoke). The target terrain modifier is based on the location of the target (woods, stone building, etc). Infantry is more vulnerable when it is moving and gets cumulative penalties for moving in the open and NOT using assault movement. 2d6 are rolled, and the total modifiers are applied. The result is looked up in the applicable FP column on the IFT. The most common kind of result is some kind of morale check (MC). This means that the target unit(s) much each roll 2d6 less than or equal to their morale or be broken. Only extreme circumstances result in units being outright eliminated (see Taking Hits for more detail).

In FF, the default fire attack roll for any unit is 2d10. This is modified up and down (auto-miss ... 2d6 ... 2d8 ... 2d10 ... 2d12 ... 2d20) by various conditions: unit using assault, range of target, fire arc and pivoting issues). The hindrance of the shot is the SINGLE LARGEST hindrance value of every intervening hindrance from the source to the target hexes, exclusive (except for smoke). If either die rolled for the attack is less than or equal to the hindrance, the shot automatically misses. Otherwise, each unit in the target hex, including friendly units, must roll 2d10 and add its defense value and the cover value for the hex. If the attack is greater than the defense, a hit marker is drawn for that unit (see Taking Hits for more detail).

In ASL, the magnitude of the attack (firepower and resulting die roll) affects the chance of a hit, and the kind of result. That is, the more firepower and the lower the roll (lower is better), the greater the penalties on the morale checks, and the greater the chance of an automatic break/kill. In FF, the chances to hit increase with firepower and dice roll total, but the best you can hope for it a hit.

Both games recognize the differences between armor piercing (AP) ammo and high explosives (HE). FF limits the effects of AP to units with armor, and HE to units with morale. That is, AP attacks cannot affect infantry, and HE attacks cannot affect tanks. I have limited experience in this area with ASL, but I believe it allows all types of attacks against all types of units, but the obvious mismatches occur with severe penalties.

Taking Hits: In ASL, there are 2 basic infantry sizes: full squads and half-squads. A unit may be broken, which prevents it from doing anything other than routing until it rallies. Units have a quality value (elite, 1st line, 2nd line, green/conscript). When a squad is "hit", it most often breaks. If a broken squad is hit again, it is replaced with a broken half-squad. Certain morale check failures can also result in a unit losing a level of quality. For example, an elite squad becomes a (broken) 1st line squad, with a numerical loss in one or more of its properties.

In FF, there are platoons and squads. A platoon can be viewed as composed of 3 squads. If any unit takes a hit, it acquires a random hit marker which affects it's abilities (no move, no fire, etc). This marker can be removed with a rally order by rolling 2d10 (adjusted up or down) greater than or equal to the rally number on the marker. In some cases, failure to rally results in elimination. Acquiring a second hit market eliminates a unit. Eliminated squads are removed from play. Eliminated platoons are converted into 2 squads, placing the existing hit marker on one of them.

Fire Arcs: Both games have the notion that some units (vehicles and guns) have an inherent facing, and that turning is not an instant thing. The costs and penalties for turning units with loose fire arcs is lower, and with strict fire arcs is higher. FF does not seem to have vehicles with turrets that rotate separate from their motion.

Snipers: In ASL, each scenario specifies what value triggers a sniper for each side. Every time you take a shot, you run the possibility of a sniper event occurring. This provides a small disincentive to taking unlikely shots. If a sniper is triggered, a sniper chit on the board is moved in a random direction and distance, and the closest enemy occupied hex is "attacked". A die roll of 1 or 2 has various results: pin/break a squad, wound/kill a leader, etc.

In FF, the sniper marker is always set to one player's side. Executing a sniper order flips this marker to your side (and allows you to take another order below sniper). At the end of each full turn, the player whose side is face up on the sniper chit gets to "take a shot". He selects a command marker on the board, and must roll less than or equal to the total number of command markers on the board. If he does, the opponent must either remove the selected marker, or lower is command range by one. Given the abstracted nature of leadership in FF, this is a pretty thematic solution.

Stacking: In ASL, a given location may contain (without penalty) 3 squads and 4 leaders. In FF, there is no limit of any kind except for vehicles in a column (on a road in otherwise impassable terrain).

Buildings: In ASL, buildings may have multiple floors (resulting in multiple locations within each hex), stairwells, etc. There's no mention of this in the FF series rules, but it's possible that the playbook (or future expansions) will add more such features.

Cards: ASL has no special cards for events. Various extreme situations (eg heat of battle) are triggered by extreme die rolls. Concepts like Off Board Artillery are specified by the scenario. FF adds scenario-defined side-specific cards. These cards are called Assets, and may be drawn (by order) and played (by order, by reaction, or as a cost).


Summary: At this point, there are no red flags for me. There were originally two (unit actions per turn, and the strength of defensive fire), but more reading, some thought, and some good discussions in the FF forums have addressed my concerns. I still wonder if FF is too much for those who are afraid of or overwhelmed by SK1, but at least it should be easier to explain and remember, while still feeling like a true wargame.


Discussion is encouraged. Please correct any factual errors I have made.
Twitter Facebook
59 Comments
Subscribe sub options Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:49 am
Post Comment
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
Avatar
mbmbmb
It is interesting to see the evolution of wargames from old school very rule-heavy structured phases to more modern fluid (and streamlined!) interleaved types of systems.

Based on my enjoyment (and respect for the quality of design and care taken in the rules) of CC I'm interested in FF. (I.e. although it's not at all the same system, it's in the same spirit by the same designer, and I find his approach more appealing than the old school "thick rulebook" approach of ASL.)
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:14 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Pierce Ostrander
United States
Deale
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

Five Thousand Scenarios - 25 years of developement - Tournaments everywhere, all year long.

Nothing can touch it.
13 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:27 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Scott Henshaw
United States
East Bridgewater
Massachusetts
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Great read Jim! Glad you kept at it and dug into it deeper, if for no other reason, we got to read this in depth analysis.
Another WWII tactical game is coming out from Worthington Games. Band of Brothers: Screaming Eagles is designed by Jim Krohn and he has really studied tactical WWII. His design blog on Consim World, http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?14@1016.4bVYbhtZbPC.10@.1dd..., goes into his rational behind the design. I found his discussion interesting and have taken a chance and pre-ordered this game also.
I have played Advanced Squad Leader: Starter Kit #1 once on the simple scenario, but played Squad Leader many times and still recommend the 1st scenario, The Guards Counterattack, as the ultimate entry into WWII tactical gaming.
For the record, I own the following WWII tacticals:
Squad Leader - Loved it years ago would play today
Advanced Squad Leader, Beyond Valor: ASL Module 1 Would play simple small scenarios
Valor & Victory- Need to play some more, Interesting and free
Tide of Iron - simple. flexible. More game than history.
Combat Commander: Europe, Combat Commander: Pacific (All of it really)Enjoy this.
Advanced Squad Leader: Starter Kit #1 (sold 2 & 3)- Played one simple scenario. Was fun.
Up Front, Banzai _ Just a fun game that really can make you sweat!
Retro: Tactical WWII Wargame Variant Rules - Never tried, but thought it might make ASL more accessible for others.
Action Front! Watchtower - Never played. Seems really simple,
Coming soon:
Fighting Formations: Grossdeutschland Motorized Infantry Division
Band of Brothers: Screaming Eagles

Slightly larger in scale (Platoon vs, Squad level)
PanzerBlitz, Panzerblitz: Hill of Death & Panzer Grenadier: Eastern Front

Now that I listed it, it is a much larger group than I had figured.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:40 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Ryan Powers
United States
Marble
Minnesota
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
fubar awol wrote:

Five Thousand Scenarios - 25 years of developement - Tournaments everywhere, all year long.

Nothing can touch it.


So you're going with a variation on the "too big to fail" argument. Always a hallmark of quality.
19 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:18 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
Avatar
mbmbmb
fubar awol wrote:

Five Thousand Scenarios - 25 years of developement - Tournaments everywhere, all year long.

Nothing can touch it.

Well, Go has several thousand years of development, and far more tournaments everywhere, all year long.

But OK, I guess there are more scenarios in ASL.
13 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:27 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Mark Buetow
United States
Du Quoin
Illinois
Best game company ever?
badge
GMT Games, of course!
Avatar
mb
Chad has always said he designs games HE wants to play. He is an ASL player himself and I don't think he is trying to "touch " ASL at all. FF is a game he wants to play, the way he wants to play it.

One thing that was hinted at with stacking limit discussion above but not specifically addressed was scale. I think, depending on the scenario, that the scale in FF can be much larger, thus the no stacking limit and "platoon " sized units.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:28 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Chris Montgomery
United States
Joliet
Illinois
Dear Geek: Please insert the wittiest comment you can think of in this text pop-up. Then times it by seven.
badge
The Coat of Arms of Clan Montgomery - Scotland. Yes, that's a woman with the head of a savage in her hand, and an anchor. No clue what it means, but it's cool.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Very nice comparison. I wish there were more reviews like this. I think my mind works and understands things much better with comparisons.

I tried ASLSK#1 and I could not for the life of me understand the rules booklet. I did play several scenarios solo, but kept thinking that I was playing something wrong. I read the five (!) tutorials (which were awesome!) and got a handle on the game. Ultimately, the game would be great if it were going to be the only game I played, but since I know that's not going to happen, and the rules were pretty dense, I backed off.

I dabbled in CoH, CC, Tide of Iron and others, utlimately settling on CC as a great tactical system that's playable in an acceptable amount of time and simulates the things I am interested in.

Considering my penchant for completeness, it's probably a GOOD thing I didn't get into ASL. I'd never have a complete set!

As for FF, I am very pumped.

Cheers.

Chris
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:52 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Pasta Batman
United States
Tustin
California
Avatar
mbmb
ekted wrote:
Although a rookie with Advanced Squad Leader, I am a huge fan, and for years have been looking for a lighter version of it to play with those not inclined to learn even the modest Starter Kit #1 ruleset. Combat Commander is too lateral/euro a design to be a contender, and Tide of Iron and Conflict of Heroes miss the mark with their handling of defensive fire, among other things.

Fighting Formation is advertised at six hours. Light or not, that alone would make it a dust collector on my shelf. CoH can be taught in 10 minutes and played under two hours. I'd be interested to hear more on why you dismiss it.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:10 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Pup Teevo

Seattle
Washington
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
When you remove the Table of Contents, Index, List of Counters and so forth the total rules for FF are only 20 pages. This really surprises me because that means that the rules for FF are shorter than the rules for Combat Commander even though CC is Infantry only and FF adds all the intricacies of vehicles.

FF falls into the "easy to learn, easy to play" category of tactical level games. It may end up being the absolute best in that category. But I don't really think it can be compared to ASL in a meaningful way. The two systems are light years apart in terms of detail, complexity, difficulty and focus.

It makes much more sense to compare FF to Conflict of Heroes. Both systems seem to be striving to hit the same sweet spot in a game with low counter density and ease of play.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:44 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jim Cote
United States

Maine
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
pastabatman wrote:
Fighting Formation is advertised at six hours. Light or not, that alone would make it a dust collector on my shelf. CoH can be taught in 10 minutes and played under two hours.

240 minutes is 4 hours. That's a light wargame for me.

pastabatman wrote:
I'd be interested to hear more on why you dismiss it.

Defensive fire in tactical wargames can be one of the defining concepts in a given design. In both CoH and ToI, defensive fire is all-or-nothing. They each handle it differently, but the general design is such that if you use a unit to fire at another moving unit, that unit is 100% done for the turn. In ToI, you must pre-designate units that want to do this. If so, they cannot move. In CoH, you have the option of using command to activate a "spent" unit, but it's just not enough.

FF (like ASL) allows for defensive fire pretty much all the time. The bottom line is that one cannot expect to move their units unchallenged in LOS of enemy units. One way to look at it is that units using defensive fire get "extra actions", much like Attacks of Opportunity in D&D. ASL "solves" this problem by allowing every unit to get defensive fire shots (during or after movement). FF "solves" this problem by using ROF as a mitigator in conjunction with move orders that allow multiple units to move, and requiring extra initiative for tactical/no command per defensive fire shot. Both of these are not only reasonable, but also fair and fun.

Neither solution is perfect. Getting extra shots should mean that your attention and firepower are split. But solving this in a "realistic" way would mean tracking micro-actions (shoot a little over here, shoot a little over there), and increasing the granularity of time, movement, and maybe unit damage.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:03 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jim Cote
United States

Maine
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ASLNoob wrote:
It makes much more sense to compare FF to Conflict of Heroes. Both systems seem to be striving to hit the same sweet spot in a game with low counter density and ease of play.

I wasn't trying to find 2 equivalent games; I was trying to find a game that filled the gap between non-wargamers and ASL. I was comparing the two in my mind as I was working through the FF rules, so I decided to post my findings.
9 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:06 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jim Cote
United States

Maine
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Although this doesn't pertain to a comparison with ASL, I should also mention that the Fate Card mechanism--carried over from CC--is the single most simple, yet brilliant mechanism I have seen in any game. Was CC the first use of it? For those who don't know how it works:

At any given time, one player controls the Fate Card. After any die/dice roll, that player may give the Fate Card to the opponent and force a re-roll. This applies to rolls for attack, defense, filling the order matrix, and even sudden death checks. It also acts as a final tie breaker.

The effect of this is that for "normal" rolls, the use of the Fate Card is risky. Say you are making a desperate fire attack (2d6) with a 4 hindrance (not sure if there are such hindrances in FF yet). If either die is less than or equal to 4, then your shot automatically misses. You roll 3 and 6, a miss. The chances of a miss in this way are 89%. So if you use the Fate Card to get a re-roll, you will still likely miss.

Now consider the case where your opponent is making a 2d6 shot through full smoke (5 hindrance). He must roll two 6's to get past the hindrance. If he does, using the Fate Card now is perfect since there's less than a 3% chance that he will roll two 6's (again). Of course, you still have the tough decision of whether it's worth using the Fate Card now, or saving it for a more crucial future event.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:43 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Joel Tamburo
United States
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Actually ASL Defensive Fire is not really "all the time".

The first use of Defensive Fire (in the game turn) causes the units to marked with a "First Fire" marker unless it is a weapon with a Rate of Fire and the appropriate number was rolled to retain Rate of Fire.

Once marked with First Fire, subsequent shots have two handicaps:

a) They are reduced in strength.

b) They can only fire at a target at the same or less range than the first unit was fired at.

This shot gets you marked Final Fire. While shots are still possible when marked Final Fire, there are major restrictions and penalties.

And yes, a viable ASL "trick" (especially in scenarios where a group of units are trying to "run the gamut") is to run one unit up close to a defensive position. If they fire at it and get marked First Fire then everyone else can dance around without harm from that position. If they decline to shoot then another unit does the same and you are typically fairly well setup for Advancing Fire and potential Close Combat.

By contrast, "Reactive fire" in Fighting Formations is unresricted. A unit can shoot and shoot until they miss their Rate of Fire. Missing it stops their shotting only for the duration of the active player order not the player turn. This resembles Combat Commander Op Fire in that a unit activated for Op Fire can keep shooting without restriction for the entirety of the Move Order that was played by the other player.

Thus, the two systems are rather different. ASL is more flexible than other systems (like CoH) but is still structured to give units a practical limit of 2-3 shots per player turn. FF and CC are more free wheeling, where a unit can easily get large numbers (5+) of defensive shots in a turn.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:27 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Mike Sherwood
United States
Arundel
Maine
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ekted wrote:
I should also mention that the Fate Card mechanism--carried over from CC--is the single most simple, yet brilliant mechanism I have seen in any game. Was CC the first use of it?


The first place I saw it was in backgammon and called a "roll over." It's referenced here as "new" in 1974:
http://www.bkgm.com/books/Goren-ModernBackgammonComplete.htm...
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:30 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Brad Miller
United States
Seattle
Washington
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The Fate card seems to owe it's pedigree to the "Advantage" from Storm Over Arnhem and its descendants.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:32 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Nick Avtges
United States
Bridgewater
Massachusetts
CONCEALED -3
badge
Brrrrrr!!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ekted wrote:
Although this doesn't pertain to a comparison with ASL, I should also mention that the Fate Card mechanism--carried over from CC--is the single most simple, yet brilliant mechanism I have seen in any game. Was CC the first use of it?


A similar concept was used in the area-impulse games Turning Point: Stalingrad, Breakout: Normandy, and Monty's Gamble: Market Garden. In these games it is called the "advantage" and it can sometimes be wrested from your opponent through highly successful attacks. It also usually counted as a victory point in those games, which meant it was rarely used, typically only once or twice during a game. It also differed from the initiative in that it could not be used more than once per die roll, and actually could not be used more than once per turn (a turn consists of many impulses).

I believe Chad was inspired by that mechanic when he created the Fate Card mechanism. He did brilliantly change it so that it could be used more than once for the same dice roll, which can lead to some exciting exchanges in CC.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:39 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jim Cote
United States

Maine
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks, Joel. I was reluctant to go into that much detail over defensive fire in ASL.

Joelist wrote:
This resembles Combat Commander Op Fire in that a unit activated for Op Fire can keep shooting without restriction for the entirety of the Move Order that was played by the other player.

Failing ROF marks the unit as spent for the remainder of the order. And it looks like infantry ROF numbers are typically 3 or 4. I haven't seen the full counter sheets yet. So if you issue a move order to a bunch of units at once, the defender is still going to have to choose what's important. This is very much like ASL.

Joelist wrote:
Thus, the two systems are rather different. ASL is more flexible than other systems (like CoH) but is still structured to give units a practical limit of 2-3 shots per player turn. FF and CC are more free wheeling, where a unit can easily get large numbers (5+) of defensive shots in a turn.

As I said above, if you want unlimited Op Fire in FF, you need to convince the opponent to move units one at a time using separate orders. It's definitely different from ASL, but it seems in the same ballpark assuming an equal degree of careful play from both sides.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:43 am
  • Posted Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:41 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jim Cote
United States

Maine
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
nix342 wrote:
He did brilliantly change it so that it could be used more than once for the same dice roll, which can lead to some exciting exchanges in CC.

Been there. I believe it was used 4 times for the same roll in one game I played. It was a fairly important result with about 50/50 chances.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:46 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Joel Tamburo
United States
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Possibly.

Two things though:

1) An order is far different from a turn. An order typically involves only a portion (frequently small) of the units on one side. The nature of the Command System mitigates against ordering up vast hordes of units all at once.

2) The ROF numbers on units in FF are muddier than those in ASL because the type of die being rolled is not constant. For example, an attack using a d6 with an ROF of 4 has a 33% chance of retaining ROF. The same unit firing with d12 has a 60% chance of retaining ROF.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:50 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jim Cote
United States

Maine
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It's tough to compare the games at the turn level.

In ASL, over a full game turn, each normal unit can either 1) prep fire, advance, defensive fire, or 2) move, advancing fire, advance, defensive fire. And they can be fired upon while moving once for every movement point (technically, movement factor) expended by each able/willing enemy unit (as you detailed above).

In FF, you could potentially move a single unit (or any combination within command/initiative limits) many times in a row within the same game turn. And each time a unit moves, it may be fired upon. In ASL terms, this would take place over many turns, but each move still gets a matching defensive fire opportunity. Also, in FF you may only fire once per hex moved, not per movement point expenditure. That mitigates it a bit.

This is a good discussion.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:09 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Asher D.
United States
Lexington
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ekted wrote:
Although this doesn't pertain to a comparison with ASL, I should also mention that the Fate Card mechanism--carried over from CC--is the single most simple, yet brilliant mechanism I have seen in any game. Was CC the first use of it? For those who don't know how it works:

At any given time, one player controls the Fate Card. After any die/dice roll, that player may give the Fate Card to the opponent and force a re-roll. This applies to rolls for attack, defense, filling the order matrix, and even sudden death checks. It also acts as a final tie breaker.

The effect of this is that for "normal" rolls, the use of the Fate Card is risky. Say you are making a desperate fire attack (2d6) with a 4 hindrance (not sure if there are such hindrances in FF yet). If either die is less than or equal to 4, then your shot automatically misses. You roll 3 and 6, a miss. The chances of a miss in this way are 89%. So if you use the Fate Card to get a re-roll, you will still likely miss.

Now consider the case where your opponent is making a 2d6 shot through full smoke (5 hindrance). He must roll two 6's to get past the hindrance. If he does, using the Fate Card now is perfect since there's less than a 3% chance that he will roll two 6's (again). Of course, you still have the tough decision of whether it's worth using the Fate Card now, or saving it for a more crucial future event.


Excellent article, Jim. I too am looking for a game lighter than ASL but that still doesn't suffer from the "panzer bush" problem that started as early as Panzerblitz; i.e. moving in plain sight of the enemy with them doing nothing but sitting on their hands. From your comparison, FF sounds very promising.

The fate card mechanic is not new to CC, Breakout:Normandy has it and calls it the Advantage chit, and it's really tricky to use well. The main issue is that not only are you using it now instead of some other time, from here on it's available to your opponent to use. In BKN it was also worth a VP to hold at the end of the game IIRC.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:01 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Martí Cabré

Terrassa
Catalonia
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Excellent article. I'd also like to have a "light ASL" for players who won't even step into the SK.

BTW, in ASL normal units get 2-3 shots per turn but thingies like HMG or AT guns can get to 6 or 7, using the same rules. ASL has a wide arc of results for every type of weapon. I don't know if the other games also handle these differences.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:02 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Michael Dorosh
Canada
Calgary
Alberta
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
fubar awol wrote:

25 years of developement


Is that really the case, though?

I don't think so. At all.

In some ways, the rules have regressed. Witness the bridge TEM flip-flop. The 2.0 rulebook was not without controversy. Didn't some rules sections actually get longer and more intensive instead of streamlining them?

The IIFT, which could have been made standard, is subject to rounds of pointless and silly debate - going on decades now. I sort of understand the issues involved - "concealment stripping" being one of them. But there have been no bold moves to reconcile these things; stuff like the IIFT gets meekly shoved into the pantheon as "optional" rules.

Is the British mortar an 81mm or a 76mm? I can't keep track. They mentioned something - where? The back flap of the Journal? About changing it. I can't remember if I have to read a "Perry sez", check the website - where I don't recall - download a "sticky errata", wait for the next Journal, or all, some, or none of the above for the official answer to that.

I don't mean to diminish what has been done - an impressive number of products, and a certain streamlining of operations that is itself impressive for a part-time company with a sprinkling of full time staff. The rationalization of the full time modules will be something impressive once finished. The ASLSK were very clever.

But the game system itself is not something that, to me, seems to reflect 25 years of intensive living rules development.

If you really feel it does, I'd be most interested in knowing why.
9 
 Thumb up
0.04
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:05 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
Avatar
mbmbmb
Michael Dorosh wrote:
fubar awol wrote:

25 years of developement


Is that really the case, though?

I don't think so. At all.

A possible resolution to that paradox is that "development" does not always mean "progress" or "improvement".

Kind of like how it often is in software "development".
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:29 am
  • Posted Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:29 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
H G
United States

Virginia
ASL Defensive Fire and how it works within the opponent's turn was design genius. Nothing has come close to how the game works. A poster above mentions that you can lock up a unit's ability to fire at other units by getting close and once it fires it can only fire at the closest unit for the rest of the phase. This is a very simplified version of what can really happen and while partially true, it is misleading and nowhere near the whole story. In ASL you are able to lay down residual firepower, Fire lanes from MG's, and a unit's inherent Firepower (rifles, SMG, Assault Rifles, Grenades, etc) are separate from their SW's (MG, BAZ, PF, PSK, etc.) and may be fired discretly.
ASL is the best, all the rest are wannabes.
There has been a lot of talk from folks who see the rulebook and run away screaming in terror. Those rules are 85% not needed to play every scenario, the vast majority of the rules are to cover special situations (Paras, Gliders, Amphibious craft, Landing Craft, Aircraft, AFV's, etc. etc).
I have played CC, COH and BoB (not FF, yet) and all of them leave me with a feeling of something is missing, or something is broken. None of them will ever take the spot of the best game of this type from ASL. They will all fade away when ASL is still being played. JMHO.

BTW, the SK rules are much easier to read and understand than the CC rules with both being about the same length (CC is a little more to read), and anyone who tells you different is not being truthful.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:46 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Michael Dorosh
Canada
Calgary
Alberta
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
russ wrote:
Michael Dorosh wrote:
fubar awol wrote:

25 years of developement


Is that really the case, though?

I don't think so. At all.

A possible resolution to that paradox is that "development" does not always mean "progress" or "improvement".

Kind of like how it often is in software "development".


True, and it's a good point. The OP may be correct by that definition. There was, though, a certain amount of stagnation towards the end of Avalon Hill's stewardship.

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:22 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Nick Avtges
United States
Bridgewater
Massachusetts
CONCEALED -3
badge
Brrrrrr!!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Arbukel wrote:
There has been a lot of talk from folks who see the rulebook and run away screaming in terror. Those rules are 85% not needed to play every scenario, the vast majority of the rules are to cover special situations (Paras, Gliders, Amphibious craft, Landing Craft, Aircraft, AFV's, etc. etc).


This statement, often used to defend ASL, is actually what made me finally put the game down. While you don't need all the rules for every scenario, every scenario needs its own subset of the rules. So every time I play, I have to consult the rulebook on the details particular to this scenario. The game just became too much studying of the rules for me because of that.

The counter example here is Combat Commander. It does not have the scope of ASL, nor does it try to cover every possible situation in its core rules. There are many things that are simply not included and special situations of importance are left to be covered by SSRs. But I can sit down and be playing with a newbie in 15-20 minutes. With an experienced player, we can get through a scenario in 2-3 hours. And with very little, if any rules lookups. And it's a ton of fun! That's what I'm looking for, and why CC is my WWII tactical game of choice.

FF looks like it may offer an alternative to me. The core rules are easily absorbed and understood. I don't know how detailed the game specific rules may be, but I'm guessing there's not that much there. It does offer a slightly larger experience and includes tanks! For all those reasons, I'm looking forward to it hitting my table.
11 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:44 pm
  • Posted Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:43 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
H G
United States

Virginia
nix342 wrote:
Arbukel wrote:
There has been a lot of talk from folks who see the rulebook and run away screaming in terror. Those rules are 85% not needed to play every scenario, the vast majority of the rules are to cover special situations (Paras, Gliders, Amphibious craft, Landing Craft, Aircraft, AFV's, etc. etc).


This statement, often used to defend ASL, is actually what made me finally put the game down. While you don't need all the rules for every scenario, every scenario needs its own subset of the rules. So every time I play, I have to consult the rulebook on the details particular to this scenario. The game just became too much studying of the rules for me because of that.

The counter example here is Combat Commander. It does not have the scope of ASL, nor does it try to cover every possible situation in its core rules. There are many things that are simply not included and special situations of importance are left to be covered by SSRs. But I can sit down and be playing with a newbie in 15-20 minutes. With an experienced player, we can get through a scenario in 2-3 hours. And with very little, if any rules lookups. And it's a ton of fun! That's what I'm looking for, and why CC is my WWII tactical game of choice.

FF looks like it may offer an alternative to me. The core rules are easily absorbed and understood. I don't know how detailed the game specific rules may be, but I'm guessing there's not that much there. It does offer a slightly larger experience and includes tanks! For all those reasons, I'm looking forward to it hitting my table.


Every scenario DOES NOT need its 'own subset' of the rules, in fact, most scenarios need only chapter A (Infantry) and Chapter B (Terrain) to play. And this would be true of ANY scenario imported from CC (excepting the ones with Guns included, for that you would need ASL Chapeter C as well).

I have introduced several dozen players to ASL, and after a brief description of the sequence of play and unit capabilities (about 10 mins tops) we are playing ASL..and with no rules look ups either, especially when we are playing infantry only, ala CC, scenarios.
The characterization of ASL as some unknowable monster is just simply not true. In fact, everyone I have introduced to ASL and to CC have much prefered ASL, all of them saying that ASL was more intuitive and easier to understand. The mechanics of ASL makes sense unlike the mechanis of CC.
But, to each his own. If you enjoy CC by all means continue to play it. I'll do the same with ASL.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:46 pm
  • Posted Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:44 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Sean McCormick
United States
Brooklyn
New York
mbmbmb
The 1st edition Conflict of Heroes rules did have that problem you mentioned with defensive fire, but they were neatly resolved in the second edition. Now, a unit gets the same amount of defensive fire as it would offensive fire, because you activate simultaneously. So a German LMG will get a minimum of 3 shots at a moving target, and that's before you factor in additional shots through CAP or card usage.

The defensive fire rules actually work very nicely now, and with no rules overhead at all. I recommend giving the series another look.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:14 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Mike Bertucelli
United States
Fresno
California
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I have them all and played them all ( ASL, CoH and FF on Vassal ). I prefer Fighting Formation then ASL and in a pretty far third CoH. Lets have no misunderstanding the ASL rule book is so much more difficult then FF, ASL is a great game but it almost is a full time job to play it. When FF comes out with more expansions it will definitely be my game of choice, I have been playingtesting FF for over a year now and the game play on the map and with everything that is going on with the order matrix makes for a very fun and fulfilling game experience. I did a demo for GMT last August on Vassal with a Mp3 file you can go to the GMT website and check it out to give you a feel for the game. The graphics are playtest and some thing have changed sense that recording but not much just a couple of small things so feel free to check it out.

Mike
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:16 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Take joy from you wins; take lessons from your losses.
United States
38.978164N 76.486881W
Maryland
Avatar

    Mr. Cote, have you played Valor & Victory?

             S.


6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:57 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Sean McCormick
United States
Brooklyn
New York
mbmbmb
Arbukel wrote:
ASL Defensive Fire and how it works within the opponent's turn was design genius. Nothing has come close to how the game works. A poster above mentions that you can lock up a unit's ability to fire at other units by getting close and once it fires it can only fire at the closest unit for the rest of the phase. This is a very simplified version of what can really happen and while partially true, it is misleading and nowhere near the whole story. In ASL you are able to lay down residual firepower, Fire lanes from MG's, and a unit's inherent Firepower (rifles, SMG, Assault Rifles, Grenades, etc) are separate from their SW's (MG, BAZ, PF, PSK, etc.) and may be fired discretly.
ASL is the best, all the rest are wannabes.
There has been a lot of talk from folks who see the rulebook and run away screaming in terror. Those rules are 85% not needed to play every scenario, the vast majority of the rules are to cover special situations (Paras, Gliders, Amphibious craft, Landing Craft, Aircraft, AFV's, etc. etc).
I have played CC, COH and BoB (not FF, yet) and all of them leave me with a feeling of something is missing, or something is broken. None of them will ever take the spot of the best game of this type from ASL. They will all fade away when ASL is still being played. JMHO.

BTW, the SK rules are much easier to read and understand than the CC rules with both being about the same length (CC is a little more to read), and anyone who tells you different is not being truthful.


I agree that ASL's defensive fire rules are very good. In fact, I think they are probably the only area where ASL manages to improve on the original 24 pg. Squad Leader rulebook. (And once I realized that SL was better than ASL, I simply ported in the defensive fire rules and was good to go.)

That said, I don't think the defensive fire rules are so far above other solutions to defensive fire as to make ASL "the best" and any competitors "wannabes." They can't really be, as ASL's mechanics to model fire and the effects of fire with its ordered/broken dichotomy are fundamentally gamey and inaccurate, so the solid interpretation of defensive fire is mired within a broader framework of a faulty system. A game like Fields of Fire does a much better job of laying out how a firefight actually works over time, and new games like the upcoming Band of Brothers: Screaming Eagles have rules that look to capture the qualities of fire exchanges, including defensive fires, with at least as much accuracy as ASL, and with 1/100th the rules overhead. (We'll see how the game plays out in practice.)
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:16 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Sean McCormick
United States
Brooklyn
New York
mbmbmb
Joelist wrote:
Thus, the two systems are rather different. ASL is more flexible than other systems (like CoH) but is still structured to give units a practical limit of 2-3 shots per player turn. FF and CC are more free wheeling, where a unit can easily get large numbers (5+) of defensive shots in a turn.


CoH is actually more flexible at this point, as a defensive unit would activate and fire with its full complement of APs, and that goes without including using CAPs or cards to activate spent units for additional fires.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:21 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
H G
United States

Virginia
seanmac wrote:
Arbukel wrote:
ASL Defensive Fire and how it works within the opponent's turn was design genius. Nothing has come close to how the game works. A poster above mentions that you can lock up a unit's ability to fire at other units by getting close and once it fires it can only fire at the closest unit for the rest of the phase. This is a very simplified version of what can really happen and while partially true, it is misleading and nowhere near the whole story. In ASL you are able to lay down residual firepower, Fire lanes from MG's, and a unit's inherent Firepower (rifles, SMG, Assault Rifles, Grenades, etc) are separate from their SW's (MG, BAZ, PF, PSK, etc.) and may be fired discretly.
ASL is the best, all the rest are wannabes.
There has been a lot of talk from folks who see the rulebook and run away screaming in terror. Those rules are 85% not needed to play every scenario, the vast majority of the rules are to cover special situations (Paras, Gliders, Amphibious craft, Landing Craft, Aircraft, AFV's, etc. etc).
I have played CC, COH and BoB (not FF, yet) and all of them leave me with a feeling of something is missing, or something is broken. None of them will ever take the spot of the best game of this type from ASL. They will all fade away when ASL is still being played. JMHO.

BTW, the SK rules are much easier to read and understand than the CC rules with both being about the same length (CC is a little more to read), and anyone who tells you different is not being truthful.


I agree that ASL's defensive fire rules are very good. In fact, I think they are probably the only area where ASL manages to improve on the original 24 pg. Squad Leader rulebook. (And once I realized that SL was better than ASL, I simply ported in the defensive fire rules and was good to go.)

That said, I don't think the defensive fire rules are so far above other solutions to defensive fire as to make ASL "the best" and any competitors "wannabes." They can't really be, as ASL's mechanics to model fire and the effects of fire with its ordered/broken dichotomy are fundamentally gamey and inaccurate, so the solid interpretation of defensive fire is mired within a broader framework of a faulty system. A game like Fields of Fire does a much better job of laying out how a firefight actually works over time, and new games like the upcoming Band of Brothers: Screaming Eagles have rules that look to capture the qualities of fire exchanges, including defensive fires, with at least as much accuracy as ASL, and with 1/100th the rules overhead. (We'll see how the game plays out in practice.)


Advanced Squad Leader is a much better and more organized game than Squad Leader. I've played both quite a bit, and the only folks I find that have the opposite view are those that can't quite get over the feeling that AH 'screwed them over' with the dropping support of SL for ASL.
Of course there are 'gamey' aspects to ASL, after all it's a game. However, overall ASL works better than anything I have tried, and I've tried them all. (BTW, Fields of Fire is a joke compared to even CC, and is completly outclassed by SL and infinitely moreso by ASL. Hell Up Front is a better game as well if you wanna play with cards.)
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:17 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
H G
United States

Virginia
seanmac wrote:
Joelist wrote:
Thus, the two systems are rather different. ASL is more flexible than other systems (like CoH) but is still structured to give units a practical limit of 2-3 shots per player turn. FF and CC are more free wheeling, where a unit can easily get large numbers (5+) of defensive shots in a turn.


CoH is actually more flexible at this point, as a defensive unit would activate and fire with its full complement of APs, and that goes without including using CAPs or cards to activate spent units for additional fires.


If you believe this, then you have never played ASL, don't understand what flexibility means, or don't understand how game mechanics work.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:19 pm
  • Posted Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:17 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Sean McCormick
United States
Brooklyn
New York
mbmbmb
Arbukel wrote:
seanmac wrote:
Arbukel wrote:
ASL Defensive Fire and how it works within the opponent's turn was design genius. Nothing has come close to how the game works. A poster above mentions that you can lock up a unit's ability to fire at other units by getting close and once it fires it can only fire at the closest unit for the rest of the phase. This is a very simplified version of what can really happen and while partially true, it is misleading and nowhere near the whole story. In ASL you are able to lay down residual firepower, Fire lanes from MG's, and a unit's inherent Firepower (rifles, SMG, Assault Rifles, Grenades, etc) are separate from their SW's (MG, BAZ, PF, PSK, etc.) and may be fired discretly.
ASL is the best, all the rest are wannabes.
There has been a lot of talk from folks who see the rulebook and run away screaming in terror. Those rules are 85% not needed to play every scenario, the vast majority of the rules are to cover special situations (Paras, Gliders, Amphibious craft, Landing Craft, Aircraft, AFV's, etc. etc).
I have played CC, COH and BoB (not FF, yet) and all of them leave me with a feeling of something is missing, or something is broken. None of them will ever take the spot of the best game of this type from ASL. They will all fade away when ASL is still being played. JMHO.

BTW, the SK rules are much easier to read and understand than the CC rules with both being about the same length (CC is a little more to read), and anyone who tells you different is not being truthful.


I agree that ASL's defensive fire rules are very good. In fact, I think they are probably the only area where ASL manages to improve on the original 24 pg. Squad Leader rulebook. (And once I realized that SL was better than ASL, I simply ported in the defensive fire rules and was good to go.)

That said, I don't think the defensive fire rules are so far above other solutions to defensive fire as to make ASL "the best" and any competitors "wannabes." They can't really be, as ASL's mechanics to model fire and the effects of fire with its ordered/broken dichotomy are fundamentally gamey and inaccurate, so the solid interpretation of defensive fire is mired within a broader framework of a faulty system. A game like Fields of Fire does a much better job of laying out how a firefight actually works over time, and new games like the upcoming Band of Brothers: Screaming Eagles have rules that look to capture the qualities of fire exchanges, including defensive fires, with at least as much accuracy as ASL, and with 1/100th the rules overhead. (We'll see how the game plays out in practice.)


Advanced Squad Leader is a much better and more organized game than Squad Leader. I've played both quite a bit, and the only folks I find that have the opposite view are those that can't quite get over the feeling that AH 'screwed them over' with the dropping support of SL for ASL.
Of course there are 'gamey' aspects to ASL, after all it's a game. However, overall ASL works better than anything I have tried, and I've tried them all. (BTW, Fields of Fire is a joke compared to even CC, and is completly outclassed by SL and infinitely moreso by ASL. Hell Up Front is a better game as well if you wanna play with cards.)


By SL, I mean the original SL, not Cross of Iron, Crescendo of Doom, etc, etc. Basic SL. The additional material added a lot of noise, but didn't really say anything new about the system's take on infantry combat. Anyway, I never collected the old SL gamettes. I kept up with ASL through West of Alamein but then bailed and stopped playing tactical games altogether (with one notable exception) until the recent generation of designs came out.

Fields of Fire is a game that I don't especially enjoy, but it's a much superior simulation to ASL. It has an actual design focus (command and control, and the concept of simultaneous fire accruing over time), and it requires players to make decisions that are appropriate to the level of command. As for Up Front, I would probably list it as the single greatest wargame ever made, certainly as far as providing an experience commensurate with what it is trying to simulate. So I guess it's different strokes for different folks.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:57 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Sean McCormick
United States
Brooklyn
New York
mbmbmb
Arbukel wrote:
seanmac wrote:
Joelist wrote:
Thus, the two systems are rather different. ASL is more flexible than other systems (like CoH) but is still structured to give units a practical limit of 2-3 shots per player turn. FF and CC are more free wheeling, where a unit can easily get large numbers (5+) of defensive shots in a turn.


CoH is actually more flexible at this point, as a defensive unit would activate and fire with its full complement of APs, and that goes without including using CAPs or cards to activate spent units for additional fires.


If you believe this, then you have never played ASL, don't understand what flexibility means, or don't understand how game mechanics work.


I'll, um, keep that in mind.
12 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:58 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Iain K
United States
Arvada
Colorado
Avatar
ekted wrote:

I wasn't trying to find 2 equivalent games; I was trying to find a game that filled the gap between non-wargamers and ASL. I was comparing the two in my mind as I was working through the FF rules, so I decided to post my findings.


This is a good discussion and I like your analysis ... but what I don't see is your conclusion on whether FF fills the gap between non-wargamers and ASL.

Does it in your opinion?

That's a huge gap by the way. If you see FF as filling the gap, are you proposing it as an introductory wargame? i.e. you see yourself introducing a newcomer to the hobby (a non-wargamer) to wargames using FF?

I get the sense that FF is more complex / less approachable.


As for the scale comments, I agree. I see why you took the tack you did Jim, but I like to compare FF to TCS or the Grand Tactical System used in Where Eagles Dare for example as my understanding is they are all the same scale.

Thanks!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:39 pm
  • Posted Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:39 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jim Cote
United States

Maine
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
citizen k wrote:
This is a good discussion and I like your analysis ... but what I don't see is your conclusion on whether FF fills the gap between non-wargamers and ASL.

Does it in your opinion?

That's a huge gap by the way. If you see FF as filling the gap, are you proposing it as an introductory wargame? i.e. you see yourself introducing a newcomer to the hobby (a non-wargamer) to wargames using FF?

I get the sense that FF is more complex / less approachable.

Well, I suppose the game needs to fulfill two goals: it must be simple enough not to scare away non-wargamers, and it must be acceptable to me.

I don't play games with non-gamers. But the average heavy gamer has a shot at enjoying light to medium wargames. As I have moved more and more into heavier games, I have found wargames to be a natural direction. It's tough comparing, say, euros and wargames on BGG because the weight scale does not realistically cross game genres, but I would compare FF (light wargame) to maybe something like Caylus in terms of complexity. In that respect, FF is a fine choice.

FF also limits your choices to one of 10 orders when it is your turn. Four of those orders relate to drawing/playing asset cards, four are moving and/or shooting, and the last two are sniper and rally. This is much simpler than wanting to do something, but having to wait until the proper phase. That requires more planning and more understanding of the big picture of the turn structure.

Part of my exploration of FF was to find any red flags that would be a deal breaker for me. I am not looking at FF as a gateway wargame. It's a game I hope that I can enjoy for myself. There were many things that could have been deal breakers, but as it stands now, there are no issues. Only playing it will tell for sure, but I hope that FF is the kind of game that I can break out, teach, and play in an evening with just about any interested gaming friend.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:06 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Iain K
United States
Arvada
Colorado
Avatar
ekted wrote:
I hope that FF is the kind of game that I can break out, teach, and play in an evening with just about any interested gaming friend.


Ok that's what I was wondering. As a wargamer for many decades surrounded by curious Euro, CCG, etc gamers I am always on the lookout for such a game so I understand your quest completely. Cheers!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:03 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Mike Bertucelli
United States
Fresno
California
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I feel that FF is much more than a light wargame just because the rules are easy to understand doesn't mean the decision are easy to make in the game and that is the beauty of the game. Sometimes I think the decisions are tougher than in ASL sometimes. The whole Order Matrix can make for some very difficult and interesting decisions, remember that you can take a order cube from say the 8 spot (battalion Support) and spent it for a lesser costing order like fire (2 cost for the Germans) this will be very costly in initiative because you will be spending 8 for a 2 you my have to do this because 8 may be the smallest order left, so how bad do you want to shoot. This and many more situations make for a really fun but difficult game.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:04 pm
  • Posted Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:40 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Sean McCormick
United States
Brooklyn
New York
mbmbmb
citizen k wrote:
ekted wrote:

I wasn't trying to find 2 equivalent games; I was trying to find a game that filled the gap between non-wargamers and ASL. I was comparing the two in my mind as I was working through the FF rules, so I decided to post my findings.


This is a good discussion and I like your analysis ... but what I don't see is your conclusion on whether FF fills the gap between non-wargamers and ASL.

Does it in your opinion?

That's a huge gap by the way. If you see FF as filling the gap, are you proposing it as an introductory wargame? i.e. you see yourself introducing a newcomer to the hobby (a non-wargamer) to wargames using FF?

I get the sense that FF is more complex / less approachable.


As for the scale comments, I agree. I see why you took the tack you did Jim, but I like to compare FF to TCS or the Grand Tactical System used in Where Eagles Dare for example as my understanding is they are all the same scale.

Thanks!


I would agree with this. Combat Commander and Conflict of Heroes (and Lock n' Load, to a lesser extent) seem like much better midpoints to ASL, as the scale is more comparable. (CC hexes are 20 meters across versus 40 meters for COH and ASL, but still.) FF looks to go up against the platoon level games.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:55 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jim Cote
United States

Maine
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hobiecat wrote:
The whole Order Matrix can make for some very difficult and interesting decisions, remember that you can take a order cube from say the 8 spot (battalion Support) and spent it for a lesser costing order like fire (2 cost for the Germans) this will be very costly in initiative because you will be spending 8 for a 2 you my have to do this because 8 may be the smallest order left, so how bad do you want to shoot. This and many more situations make for a really fun but difficult game.

This could have well been a red flag. This is a euro mechanic, and not a wargame mechanic. If I pick fire for 2, you will have to spend 7 if you want to fire? Not buying it. But it's minor enough that I can overlook it, and the idea of initiative (ie spending time/attention) is thematically/metaphorically connected to the wargame itself. CC's deck of actions is way over the line for me, and breaks the whole "I'm playing a wargame" mindset.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Fri Apr 1, 2011 12:30 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
Avatar
mbmbmb
ekted wrote:
This is a euro mechanic, and not a wargame mechanic. If I pick fire for 2, you will have to spend 7 if you want to fire? Not buying it.

By chance, I read Chad's comment about this specific issue yesterday:
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/3865203#3865203
FWIW:
Chad Jensen wrote:
The change from individual Matrices to a single shared Matrix was instigated by player feedback -- both my own and that of innumerable playtesters and demoees. Every person who has played both versions has stated the shared Matrix to be superior.

It works better (read: easier and faster) and is no more "gamey" than it was before.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Fri Apr 1, 2011 9:03 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Iain K
United States
Arvada
Colorado
Avatar
The argument that it is "no more 'gamey' than it was before" doesn't address whether such a mechanic was 'gamey' in the first place, and doesn't comfort me one bit.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Fri Apr 1, 2011 3:35 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Brandon Pennington
United States
Springfield
Missouri
flag msg tools
designer
If your orange juice doesn't burn on the way down, then you need more vodka!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
BTW, the SK rules are much easier to read and understand than the CC rules with both being about the same length (CC is a little more to read), and anyone who tells you different is not being truthful.


sorry, you can call me a liar if you want, but I actually bought and tried to learn ASLSK before I ever attempted Combat Commander, and I thought and still think that CC's rules are probably the easiest to understand and reference of any wargame I have.

17 
 Thumb up
0.10
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:34 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Scott Henshaw
United States
East Bridgewater
Massachusetts
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Interesting comments from a dedicated ASL player (check out his microbadges!)
Link to thread
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:49 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jim Cote
United States

Maine
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TGov wrote:
Quote:
BTW, the SK rules are much easier to read and understand than the CC rules with both being about the same length (CC is a little more to read), and anyone who tells you different is not being truthful.

sorry, you can call me a liar if you want, but I actually bought and tried to learn ASLSK before I ever attempted Combat Commander, and I thought and still think that CC's rules are probably the easiest to understand and reference of any wargame I have.

I'm with you, Brandon. The CC rules were a pleasure to read. They are better than many euro game rules. I completely understand why people are turned off by the SK rules.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:59 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Chadwik
United States
Santa Rosa
California
flag msg tools
designer
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
citizen k wrote:
The argument that it is "no more 'gamey' than it was before" doesn't address whether such a mechanic was 'gamey' in the first place, and doesn't comfort me one bit.

What Russ quoted wasn't the entirety of the post. Here's the remainder of what I wrote, in case it might be of some help:

Quote:
Example: previously, because I happened to roll a 10 and you didn't I got to draw 3 cards guaranteed -- and I got to choose the timing of it so that the Initiative hit was mitigated. Now when a single 10 is rolled either player has the chance to take this powerful action ... but perhaps at great cost in Initiative if acted upon too rashly.

"Do I really need to call in preparatory arty right now and waste precious time? Or can my boys take that bunker with a short surprise assault through the woods?"
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:08 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Scott Rose
United States
Redding
California
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
russ wrote:
It is interesting to see the evolution of wargames from old school very rule-heavy structured phases to more modern fluid (and streamlined!) interleaved types of systems.

Based on my enjoyment (and respect for the quality of design and care taken in the rules) of CC I'm interested in FF. (I.e. although it's not at all the same system, it's in the same spirit by the same designer, and I find his approach more appealing than the old school "thick rulebook" approach of ASL.)


I think your comments highlight the beauty of Chad Jensens designs. Although ASL remains one of my favorite games, I like the fact that Chads games are well written, easy to reference, low in complexity (rules), and a lot of fun. I've yet to own FF though.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:37 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Tom Davies
Australia

What about Advanced Tobruk System as an ASL lite?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Fri May 6, 2011 3:09 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Sean McCormick
United States
Brooklyn
New York
mbmbmb
That's obviously a much closer comparison.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Fri May 6, 2011 1:16 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Keith Medlin
United States
Holly Springs
North Carolina
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

Joelist wrote:
Thus, the two systems are rather different. ASL is more flexible than other systems (like CoH) but is still structured to give units a practical limit of 2-3 shots per player turn. FF and CC are more free wheeling, where a unit can easily get large numbers (5+) of defensive shots in a turn.


ASL is representing a concrete "shot" whereas FF seems to be representing the Volume of Fire that a unit can direct which is somewhat less concrete. Both have their merits and fit their scale and scope.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Fri May 6, 2011 6:38 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jim Cote
United States

Maine
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Played maybe half of scenario 0 tonight, and it was my first game. Here are my gut reactions:

- For the lightness of the game, it's pretty physically cumbersome. Constantly flipping counters to activate them, or merely to look at the reverse to check activated values is a pain, more so when they have hit markers on them (or "in column" markers, which can accidentally flip to "spent").

- It didn't flow smoothly. This may clearly be my familiarity with ASL, but Fire, Move, Rally, Assault, Fire, Advance, etc. just doesn't feel very amenable to any sort of planning, even within a single turn. This is further exaggerated by the order/cube system.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Thu May 19, 2011 7:31 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Pierce Ostrander
United States
Deale
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Joelist wrote:
.....And yes, a viable ASL "trick" (especially in scenarios where a group of units are trying to "run the gamut") is to run one unit up close to a defensive position. If they fire at it and get marked First Fire then everyone else can dance around without harm from that position. If they decline to shoot then another unit does the same and you are typically fairly well setup for Advancing Fire and potential Close Combat.

...By contrast, "Reactive fire" in Fighting Formations is unresricted...

Thus, the two systems are rather different. ASL is more flexible than other systems (like CoH) but is still structured to give units a practical limit of 2-3 shots per player turn. FF and CC are more free wheeling, where a unit can easily get large numbers (5+) of defensive shots in a turn.


Teddy - Great summary of ASL here and really well-written comparison.

Joelist sites one of the many, many "tricks" of ASL. These “tricks” are part of what make ASL so deep and what make it a game that can separate player’s skill levels over a broad continuum. Some games, you are either “good” (and have mastered the few things that will make you a good player) or “poor” and haven’t. With ASL, there are so many levels of novice, so many levels of journeyman and so many levels of expert that you can be learning and growing forever.

Expert players use these techniques and many other skill sets to “take power from the dice” (reduce the randomness of the game) and allow their superior experience and skill to win.

I’ve played CoH, ToI and several other lighter tactical WW2 wargames. Although I have not tried FF, it is hard for me to image it satisfying a person over the long haul in the way that ASL does.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:01 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
dave vicks
United States
Westmont
Illinois
mbmbmb
How does FF compare to TCS by the Gamers?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:52 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Sean McCormick
United States
Brooklyn
New York
mbmbmb
Same unit scale, but otherwise totally different. Maps in FF are at 1/2 the scale, and turns are somewhere in the vicinity of 5 minutes rather than 20. Despite the platoon scale, FF plays very much like a squad-level game, while there is a much stronger feel of organization and command control in TCS. TCS also takes much, much longer.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:47 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
dave vicks
United States
Westmont
Illinois
mbmbmb
OK How does AP's Panzer Grenadier series compare to FF?

I also heard that the maps in PzG are poor.

I would rather be playing VG's PANZER COMMAND.cool

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:41 pm
  • Posted Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:38 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
H G
United States

Virginia
Joelist wrote:
Actually ASL Defensive Fire is not really "all the time".

The first use of Defensive Fire (in the game turn) causes the units to marked with a "First Fire" marker unless it is a weapon with a Rate of Fire and the appropriate number was rolled to retain Rate of Fire.

Once marked with First Fire, subsequent shots have two handicaps:

a) They are reduced in strength.

b) They can only fire at a target at the same or less range than the first unit was fired at.

This shot gets you marked Final Fire. While shots are still possible when marked Final Fire, there are major restrictions and penalties.

And yes, a viable ASL "trick" (especially in scenarios where a group of units are trying to "run the gamut") is to run one unit up close to a defensive position. If they fire at it and get marked First Fire then everyone else can dance around without harm from that position. If they decline to shoot then another unit does the same and you are typically fairly well setup for Advancing Fire and potential Close Combat.

By contrast, "Reactive fire" in Fighting Formations is unresricted. A unit can shoot and shoot until they miss their Rate of Fire. Missing it stops their shotting only for the duration of the active player order not the player turn. This resembles Combat Commander Op Fire in that a unit activated for Op Fire can keep shooting without restriction for the entirety of the Move Order that was played by the other player.

Thus, the two systems are rather different. ASL is more flexible than other systems (like CoH) but is still structured to give units a practical limit of 2-3 shots per player turn. FF and CC are more free wheeling, where a unit can easily get large numbers (5+) of defensive shots in a turn.


ASL units leave residual Fire markers and Fire Lane markers for all those shots they take. The Residual Fire markers remain throughout the Movement Phase and attack any units entering their (the RFP/FL markers) location..same for Fire Lanes (which can be cancelled under certain circumstances)...ASL is a much more flexible game that either CC or FF.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:28 am
  • Posted Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:25 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.