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Links: Japan Goes for Cat & Chocolate, Munchkin Heads for Target & How Much Scoring Is Too Much?

W. Eric Martin
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Game news, weekend edition:

• Which game beat out Power Grid, Race for the Galaxy, Le Havre and Thunderstone in best game of the year voting? Ryo Kawakami's Cat & Chocolate. Yes, really.

The voting was for the 2010 Japan Boardgame Prize, and while you might think that hometown pride played a role in which game ended up on top, the write-up on U-more.com notes that 2010 is the first time that a native Japanese game has won the prize. The four titles listed above came in second through fifth. Cat & Chocolate was released in Japan by Qvinta Essentia and distributed globally by Japon Brand; a French edition will appear in late 2011 from Moonster Games as Texas Zombies.

• In 2006, North Star Games was able to get Wits & Wagers into a small number of Target stores as a sales test, a test that the game subsequently passed, leading to the game being sold through the chain nationwide, even five years on.

Now Steve Jackson Games is trodding that same path with Munchkin. As noted in a March 31, 2011 Illuminator post, "selected Target locations will be carrying special Munchkin sets during the month of April. These locations are a test; if Munchkin sells well, more Target stores might pick up Munchkin..." As one might expect if one knows the history of Munchkin, these Target-bound sets will include special Munchkin-related goodies available nowhere else.

• On MeepleTown, in an article titled "Complex Scoring and 7 Wonders", Derek Thompson uses this Antoine Bauza design as an example of what not to do when constructing a scoring system:

Quote:
I liked 7 Wonders; it's fast and the gameplay is unique and fluid, but I did feel a sense of "idiocy" regarding the scoring. I didn't know what I was doing, but neither did anyone else. All I had figured out was that military seemed strong and I didn't understand science, so I didn't bother. But even for an experienced gamer like me, one aspect of the scoring was so unclear at the beginning that I simply ignored it, and that's not good game design.

I get what Thompson is saying – especially since the rules explanation for 7 Wonders combined with scoring seems to take as long as the game itself – yet after 30+ plays I do have a sense of how I'm doing during the game, as well as how my neighbors are doing and what they're trying to achieve. You get a sense for the game's flow and what you need to do in the next turn or two to prepare for the next age. You learn the composition of the decks and which cards you can pass on the assumption that another might be coming. Not everyone will want to give a game thirty tries to gain that insight, though, especially for a game lasting more than 30 minutes.

In some ways, 7 Wonders compares with Agricola in that the satisfaction from playing comes from building your own world/farm. You decide whether you want, say, huge pastures or a strong military presence based on both your style of play and the opportunities left to you by other players, then you try to make the most of each action to put the shine on everything. In Agricola, sometimes you look at your farm and know it pales in comparison to someone else's, with the scoring only serving as an official way to record this difference; 7 Wonders comes across the same way. Thoughts?

• GameZebo interviews Milton Soong from Zabu Studio, which has produced Facebook versions of three designs from Reiner Knizia: Lost Cities, Pickomino and Poseidon's Realm, this last design being a Bejeweled-style of game and something new for Facebook and not a solo adaptation of a previously released game. The next title from Zabu for Facebook is Take it Easy!, with a few more Knizia games in the pipeline.

• Canadian publisher FoxMind has overhauled its website, with special sections for newly released and upcoming games, as well as its most popular titles. A fair number of the game listings include downloadable rules, with a select few having rule videos. More rules please!

• French site Tric Trac has posted a slew of photos from the 2011 GAMA Trade Show.
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Subscribe sub options Sat Apr 2, 2011 7:02 pm
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C Sandifer
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But even for an experienced gamer like me, one aspect of the scoring was so unclear at the beginning that I simply ignored it, and that's not good game design.

I'm not a 7 Wonders fan by any stretch (check my rating ), but it seems odd to equate "mathy scoring that I don't care for" with bad design.

One could argue, minimally, that the problem is with the 7 Wonders rulebook (better scoring examples? more clarity?) rather than the scoring system itself.

Or if the problem was with someone explaining the rules poorly, then sit down with someone else who is a better rules 'splainer. I've been subjected to a truly endless number of horrible rules explanations, but the games themselves weren't at fault.
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  • Edited Sat Apr 2, 2011 8:06 pm
  • Posted Sat Apr 2, 2011 7:45 pm
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Lee Fisher
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I was going to compare it to Ra, but apparently he thinks Ra scoring is OK.

I really don't see any issue with the 7W scoring. After you play it once it is pretty clear. The only thing somewhat confusing is the science, but it is still fairly easy to explain, and not uncommon to other games.
And then there are the guilds, but you can usually figure them out towards the end.

Otherwise, blue cards - easy, money - easy, military - clear... I think the system gives plenty of feedback.
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  • Posted Sat Apr 2, 2011 7:56 pm
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Brian Leet
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I think the challenge with 7 Wonders scoring is one of scale. The scoring complexity seems surprisingly high given the game play complexity and duration. In my experience it does cause players to feel like they don't know what they are doing during play, which is where the rubber hits the road. I haven't had a personal problem with it, but understand the critique.

I also just have to say that I love we are in such a global village that a Japanese company would produce a game called Cat & Chocolate which would get picked up by in French and called Texas Zombies. That is a world without borders!
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  • Posted Sat Apr 2, 2011 7:59 pm
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Tiwaz Tyrsfist
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How is scoring in 7 Wonders hard?
Add up military points.
Add one point per three coins you have.
Add printed points from your wonder and any buildings with VP on them.
Add points from Guilds.
Add points from science*.
- A) Count how many Matching symbols you have of each of the three symbols, Square it. Add them all up.
- B) Find how many sets of all three symbols you can make. Multiply that by 7.


Frankly, Scoring in 7 wonders seems easier than scoring in Ticket to Ride.

EDIT: Then again, I'm the sort who does recreational Math so maybe I'm just over estimating the amount of math the average person can do quickly in their head. But honestly, it doesn't seem that hard or confusing to me.
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  • Edited Sat Apr 2, 2011 8:44 pm
  • Posted Sat Apr 2, 2011 8:43 pm
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The facebook version of lost cities gave my computer a virus...
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  • Posted Sat Apr 2, 2011 8:44 pm
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W. Eric Martin
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PghArch wrote:
I also just have to say that I love we are in such a global village that a Japanese company would produce a game called Cat & Chocolate which would get picked up by in French and called Texas Zombies. That is a world without borders!


I'm looking forward to combining the two to play Texas Cat & Chocolate Zombies.
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  • Posted Sat Apr 2, 2011 9:01 pm
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TiwazTyrsfist wrote:
How is scoring in 7 Wonders hard?


I don't think the OP is saying that 7 Wonders scoring is hard, so much as that the scoring is opaque – meaning that players have little feedback during the game as to what has value and which actions will be worth something at game's end.

This is why the scoring in Ra works for him; twice during that game, you cash in most of what you hold and get a sense of where you stand relative to everyone else. "Okay, I scored eight, but he scored twelve and she's right behind me with six. I need to keep him from grabbing X in the next round to tighten the scores." This is probably why military in 7 Wonders seemed strong on the first play: Players received their points immediately, and it was clear that some players were on top of others. Intermediate development due to potential free buildings or money advantage or wonder advancement is less clear when compared to points on the table.
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  • Posted Sat Apr 2, 2011 9:08 pm
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I think the problem with 7 Wonders from a beginner's perspective is much like that of many other games: you don't know what bonus cards are in the third age deck, so you don't know how to optimize your tableau to score well. Maybe this is a game-explaining problem: those cards should probably be laid out at the beginning, "This is what is going to decide the game in the last round." At least it is fairly convenient to explain 7 Wonders in such a way.
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  • Posted Sat Apr 2, 2011 9:11 pm
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Sam Collard
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TiwazTyrsfist wrote:

Frankly, Scoring in 7 wonders seems easier than scoring in Ticket to Ride.

EDIT: Then again, I'm the sort who does recreational Math so maybe I'm just over estimating the amount of math the average person can do quickly in their head. But honestly, it doesn't seem that hard or confusing to me.


You're far from the only maths nerd around (hi), but I'm not sure that this is to do with that. I agree with the OP somewhat - in fact, almost exactly, down to ignoring science - with regards to 7W scoring; it's not that the actual sums involved are hard, but just the things that go into the score are so varied, with little similarity between them that it becomes hard to internalise what is and isn't a good idea. Having more science is better than having no science, but in the middle of the game is having more science better than having more military? You can sit and work this out, and admittedly this is where a large part of the game lies, but I personally find it hard to develop an intuitive sense of what to do.
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  • Posted Sat Apr 2, 2011 9:40 pm
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Derek Thompson
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My main problem is the little amount of in-game feedback for such a complex system, and that's why I think Ra is okay, even though it's scoring is about as weird. I'm mostly speaking from experience - 7 Wonders is quickly becoming a 10 for me - but every single time I have explained the game, when I explain the scoring someone's eyes glaze over. Maybe I'm just bad at explaining.

One quick math trick that helps explaining science - instead of saying you score the square of the amount you have, you can say "Each symbol is worth how many you have of that symbol." So tablets are worth 1 if you have 1, 2 each if you have 2, and so on. It's the same thing.

I am actually working on my PhD in math, so I know it sounds dumb that I'm griping about it, but you know, it's a family game for everybody, not to mention I do math all day at school...

Edit: Should have read comments better, Eric beat me to it
 
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  • Edited Sat Apr 2, 2011 11:11 pm
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Lee Fisher
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I guess another aspect is, if you've played a lot of fairy tale, the scoring seems pretty natural.
 
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  • Posted Sat Apr 2, 2011 11:11 pm
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Tall_Walt wrote:
Maybe this is a game-explaining problem: those cards should probably be laid out at the beginning, "This is what is going to decide the game in the last round." At least it is fairly convenient to explain 7 Wonders in such a way.


Funny thing is, after at least a half-dozen takes on explaining the rules to 7 Wonders, I now mostly ignore the guilds when I talk about scoring as they're effectively the straw breaking the camel's back. Not only does a new player have to absorb how to play the cards and build the wonder and buy resources and handle military scoring and put together valuable science packages, but now they have an overlaying scoring system that worries about all those things together – and not all of the cards will even be available, so try to fit that in your calculations, newbie!

Instead I point out that you can find resource cards only in the first two ages. In the third age, you instead find guild cards that provide bonuses mostly based on what your neighbors are doing. Don't worry about those now, and ask your right-hand neighbor about them when the time comes.

Of course at my house we really stress the "learning" in a learning game. My motto is "just do something, then see what happens". While most players seem receptive to learning on the fly and preparing for game #2, I'm sure that style of teaching would drive others crazy!
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  • Posted Sat Apr 2, 2011 11:33 pm
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I think Ra is a good example of a game with relatively complex scoring that makes the probabilities and scoring utterly clear, simply by printing them on the board. This is much easier for an "orthogonal" game like Ra--a game that has a regular order to its cards/tiles that you can lay out in a simple (orthogonal) table. Games like 7 Wonders, Glory to Rome, or Race for the Galaxy have far too many unique cards for such an approach. As you point out, it would lead to information overflow: if you try to explain everything, you explain nothing.
 
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  • Edited Sun Apr 3, 2011 4:19 am
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Scott
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  • Posted Sun Apr 3, 2011 2:59 am
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I don't think complicated scoring is bad design.

What I do think is undesirable design, and which 7 Wonders suffers a serious case of, is high up-front complexity. That is, a game where you're asked to make high-stakes decisions very early in the game when the only thing that realistically is going to help you make those decisions is experience. This is bad from the point of view of managing tension; you want to build up to the high-stakes decisions. And it's bad from the point of view of making the game engaging, in that players feel like they are flailing without context and will have a hard time engaging with the game unless they are pre-comitted.

7 Wonders has other compensating virtues, especially for the gamer-types, but these are definitely serious problems; early hands are crucial while the later hands play themselves. By the end of the second era, all your major decisions are made. Newbies are appropriately hammered for no good reason, and even experienced gamers feel the tension drain out of the game.

This is not to say that 7 Wonders is a bad game, or that other compensating aspects might make a game with these features work out in the end. Rules are made to be broken. But it's clear to me that these features - high up-front complexity and high-stakes decisions made too early in the game - are definitely undesirable.

Games like Ra and Modern Art avoid this problem by pacing themselves and escalating tension. The stakes go up as the game goes on, so early mistakes aren't going to punish you too much and as the game develops you get a feel for it.
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  • Edited Sun Apr 3, 2011 5:25 am
  • Posted Sun Apr 3, 2011 5:21 am
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Jeffrey Allers
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Although there are many "compensating factors" to 7 Wonders that make it a great filler game for gamers (and for up to 7 players), I'm afraid the weaknesses mentioned will probably keep it from being awarded the Spiel des Jahres main award this year.

I've seen the same issues when trying to teach the game, although I take a stance similar to Eric's, using the first game as a strict learning game, and following it up with another one right away.

I still think it's a great game and have played it more than any other single game since it was released. And I think that the timing of the SdJ Jury's new annual award, for "best complex game" will work in the game's favor.
 
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  • Posted Sun Apr 3, 2011 8:29 am
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W Eric Martin wrote:
I'm looking forward to combining the two to play Texas Cat & Chocolate Zombies.


Or Texas Chocolate & Cat Zombies
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  • Posted Sun Apr 3, 2011 8:32 am
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The Target exclusive Munchkin set will contain.

1: The Munchkin (fantasy) base game, current full-color edition.
2: One booster pack: Munchkin Reloaded
3: An exclusive d6
4: An exclusive Bookmark

The base set is MSRP $25, and the booster is $5.
The Target set (including both) will be only $25.

However, Target will not carry any expansions or other genres.

The exclusive d6 and bookmark are indeed exclusive. Even the MIBs will not get them, unless they buy a Target set themselves.
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  • Posted Sun Apr 3, 2011 9:38 am
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The main issue I have with 7 Wonders is scoring is that is is very difficult to tell, at a glance who is winning. I think that type of feedback is very important in a game like this. The actual calculation of the scores is not that bad, and you can usually tell for yourself what your best action is. But, especially with 7 players, it's quite hard to look around the table and see who is really ahead.

Geoff
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  • Posted Sun Apr 3, 2011 12:34 pm
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There are few game mechanics I hate more than "scoring millions of different things in different ways at the end of the game" (the one exceptions being Android, but there, at least for me, winning the game is less important than seeing the story unfold, setting certain minigoals for myself and fulfilling them). It generally feels annoying and anticlimactic, and it also makes in-game evaluation of your position almost impossible, especially with many players. Sadly, the current trend of Eurogames seems to favor this kind of design. I wish there were more games like e.g. Settlers, where the game ends with one player suddenly achieving the (or, in other games, one of the) winning condition(s), which I find much more exciting.
 
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  • Posted Sun Apr 3, 2011 1:40 pm
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engelstein wrote:
The main issue I have with 7 Wonders is scoring is that is is very difficult to tell, at a glance who is winning. I think that type of feedback is very important in a game like this. The actual calculation of the scores is not that bad, and you can usually tell for yourself what your best action is. But, especially with 7 players, it's quite hard to look around the table and see who is really ahead.

Geoff


Is it really much worse than Ticket to Ride? Maybe they should have a score track to track your blue cards and military.

Jeff if the new "Complex" SdJ gets used for something like 7 Wonders, I think a lot of people will be upset.
 
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  • Posted Sun Apr 3, 2011 3:00 pm
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Patrick C.
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Labyrinth: The War On Terror is historically inaccurate & politically biased. It's the one popular game that violates BGG's requirements to keep politics out of gen. discussion. And yet it receives special treatment =US-centric views of this site.
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jeffinberlin wrote:
W Eric Martin wrote:
I'm looking forward to combining the two to play Texas Cat & Chocolate Zombies.


Or Texas Chocolate & Cat Zombies


If this new attention results in more copies being made of the original game I hope they'll be made available to US buyers.

Note to all online stores: If you pick this up there are people who want the original over the idiotic American zombie re-theme!
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  • Posted Sun Apr 3, 2011 9:03 pm
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travvller wrote:
jeffinberlin wrote:
W Eric Martin wrote:
I'm looking forward to combining the two to play Texas Cat & Chocolate Zombies.


Or Texas Chocolate & Cat Zombies


If this new attention results in more copies being made of the original game I hope they'll be made available to US buyers.

Note to all online stores: If you pick this up there are people who want the original over the idiotic American zombie re-theme!


x2 -- I'd buy a copy of the original in one second. The re-theme, definitely not.
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  • Posted Sun Apr 3, 2011 9:31 pm
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Quote:
GameZebo interviews Milton Soong from Zabu Studio, which has produced Facebook versions of three designs from Reiner Knizia [snip] The next title from Zabu for Facebook is Take it Easy!, with a few more Knizia games in the pipeline.


That would be Peter Burley's Take it Easy!.
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  • Posted Sun Apr 3, 2011 11:24 pm
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W. Eric Martin
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EYE of NiGHT wrote:
Quote:
GameZebo interviews Milton Soong from Zabu Studio, which has produced Facebook versions of three designs from Reiner Knizia [snip] The next title from Zabu for Facebook is Take it Easy!, with a few more Knizia games in the pipeline.


That would be Peter Burley's Take it Easy!.


Didn't mean to imply otherwise – I suppose I took it for granted that Take it Easy! is a known quantity and everyone knows who designed it. Bad call on my part.
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  • Posted Mon Apr 4, 2011 3:29 am
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Steve Duff
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engelstein wrote:
The main issue I have with 7 Wonders is scoring is that is is very difficult to tell, at a glance who is winning.


Why? you can't do anything about it anyway. Especially with 7 players.
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  • Posted Mon Apr 4, 2011 5:13 am
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Jan Bażyński
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I also think that 7 Wonders scoring is not so complex. Yes, it usually someone will need to explain him science a second time, but after that everything is clear, even playing with people who rarely play board games.
 
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  • Posted Mon Apr 4, 2011 5:53 am
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Quote:
But even for an experienced gamer like me, one aspect of the scoring was so unclear at the beginning that I simply ignored it, and that's not good game design.


This is silly. It's difficult the first time you play, but many games are like that and last a whole lot longer. I've never seen anyone have any trouble with 7 Wonders after the first play.
 
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  • Edited Mon Apr 4, 2011 5:33 pm
  • Posted Mon Apr 4, 2011 5:33 pm
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Spencer Egart
United States
Independence
Kentucky
Ugh, why zombies? Why can't I just have Cat & Chocolate?
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  • Posted Mon Apr 4, 2011 11:18 pm
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Justin
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I can only pray for a joint UN resolution declaring a no-fly zone over anyone that takes issue with 7 Wonders' scoring.
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  • Posted Tue Apr 5, 2011 4:31 am
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Steve S
United States
Rockford
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SJG says they're getting Munchkin into Target stores in hopes of picking up new gamers (ie pretty much every current gamer who gives a crap about this game has it, so they need to expand their market to keep the money train rolling in).
I think it's going to be a tough sell though - $25 for a card game, which will be sharing shelf space with other card games that run $4-7, will seem obnoxiously expensive to a typical non-gamer shopper who likely has never heard of the game before.
 
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  • Posted Tue Apr 5, 2011 1:51 pm
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Derek Thompson
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Beech Grove
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7 Wonders was just meant to be an example, so I'd encourage you read the article with a game in mind which you personally think has unreasonable scoring, or try to understand the points without that frame of reference. I only picked it because of my repeated experiences explaining the game - for gamers like us, it all becomes clear by the 2nd game for sure, but for my non-gamer friends who are willing to entertain me, they're not always going to be willing to go through a 2nd play to get it right.
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  • Posted Tue Apr 5, 2011 3:53 pm
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V L
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TiwazTyrsfist wrote:
How is scoring in 7 Wonders hard?
Add up military points.
Add one point per three coins you have.
Add printed points from your wonder and any buildings with VP on them.
Add points from Guilds.
Add points from science*.
- A) Count how many Matching symbols you have of each of the three symbols, Square it. Add them all up.
- B) Find how many sets of all three symbols you can make. Multiply that by 7.


Frankly, Scoring in 7 wonders seems easier than scoring in Ticket to Ride.

EDIT: Then again, I'm the sort who does recreational Math so maybe I'm just over estimating the amount of math the average person can do quickly in their head. But honestly, it doesn't seem that hard or confusing to me.



I haven't played 7 wonders yet, but I understood you until the science part. But I don't know that much about the game and haven't seen the cards, science or not, and haven't seen a scoring example.

Also, I'm picking it up today.
 
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  • Posted Wed Apr 6, 2011 2:23 pm
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V L
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Lost cities has kinda "funny" scoring. It's not hard though.
 
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  • Posted Wed Apr 6, 2011 2:24 pm
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Jeremy Wolford
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Henrietta
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I find it interesting that you think Carcassonne scoring isn't opaque; almost every time I have new players in the game, gamers or non, they ignore fields unless I intentionally plop a farmer down on one of my first few turns and they ask "Now why would you do that?". The immediate feedback of the other scoring often causes people to ignore the fields entirely, or at least assume they're just something to throw meeples down on in the last few turns and not really worth much - which sounds similar to your complaint about 7 Wonders.

I think part of the problem is that 7 Wonders isn't really a good "gateway", in my opinion. I'm pretty good at explaining games (I even had a friend buy me a game once because he knew I liked it, wanted to try it and wanted me to be the one to explain it to him), but I have not had much success trying to explain how card drafting works to people who have never seen it before. I know it's not that complicated (you take a card and pass the rest to the left, repeat), but the concept of not having "your own hand" is mind-boggling for some. I didn't find the scoring any more opaque than any other card game where you don't know what's going to come up your first play.

Having said that, I do see your main point. Stephensons Rocket is like that for me; the scoring is so complex that at times you're tempted to make semi-random decisions just to keep the game moving. I'm sure consequences become more clear after repeated plays, but that first play is rough.
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  • Posted Wed Apr 6, 2011 3:19 pm
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kevin long
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lfisher wrote:
I was going to compare it to Ra, but apparently he thinks Ra scoring is OK.

I really don't see any issue with the 7W scoring. After you play it once it is pretty clear. The only thing somewhat confusing is the science, but it is still fairly easy to explain, and not uncommon to other games.
And then there are the guilds, but you can usually figure them out towards the end.

Otherwise, blue cards - easy, money - easy, military - clear... I think the system gives plenty of feedback.


That's what i was going to ask! I haven't played 7 Wonders but i can't imagine the scoring being any more convoluted than any of Knizia's 30 minute games. If the scoring drives the decision making then it is legitimate design. But preference wise i hate weird mathy scoring mechanisms used to drive the game. I am a theme junky! Remind me to make some scoring cheat sheets for this when it comes in the mail...
 
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  • Posted Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:21 pm
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