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Designer Diary: Oz – Searching for Great, Avoiding the Terrible

Emanuele Ornella
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Over the past few years I've read a lot of kids' novels, both classic stories and modern ones, to my daughter Alice and son Leonardo. One of the classic stories that I've always liked is L. Frank Baum's The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, mostly for the action in the story, which is often not present in other classic novels for children.

A few years ago, I played an interesting game by Leo Colovini called Masons, and while the game had some neat elements, the overall play experience was just okay. For me, the brilliant idea was players being challenged to use different scoring cards that best match the current situation on the game board.

My attempt to blend these two ideas resulted in the design of the new card game Oz from Ystari Games. The game – simple but at the same time challenging – uses two kinds of cards: character cards and story cards.

• Character cards show the main players in The Wonderful Wizard of Oz: Dorothy and her little dog Toto; the Lion, the Scarecrow and the Tin Man, who join Dorothy on her quest to the Emerald City; and of course the fantastic characters of the Wicked Witch, the Good Witch, and the Wizard of Oz himself!

Prototype story card

• Story cards are used for scoring at the end of the game based on the character cards you've collected.

Example of a story card as published

It looks simple, doesn't it? So where's the interesting part? Each round character and story cards are drawn and placed together in sets, with two characters and one story in a set; the number of sets laid out in a round is one greater than the number of players. When a player chooses what to take, he must take the entire set. As a result, you're often forced to choose between the best story card that matches the characters you've already collected or vice versa. The ideal choice, in which both character and story cards will be of great advantage to you, is of course a rare occurrence.

Oz is so simple and fast that even with four players, a game can be played in just 15 minutes.

I presented this game to Ystari's Cyril Demaegd in Essen at Spiel 2010. We hadn't scheduled an appointment prior to the fair – just agreed that I'd pass by at some point – and he happened to be free when I arrived, so we moved to the cafeteria. "I'm sorry," I said, "but I do not have any game to show you this year. I have only simple card games." His reply surprised me: "I've been thinking of starting a line for Ystari with card games."

We started to play Oz, and he was interested immediately. The nice thing with a simple card game is that you can explain it and even play in a few minutes, which is handy when you're trying to grab the attention of a publisher. Cyril was enthusiastic from the first game, and after the second game he decided to publish it – which he did in just a few months!

Two of the eight characters

As for the look of the game, when Cyril showed me Maliki's website, I was hesitant at first. Why adopt a manga-style artwork for Oz? But that hesitation lasted only a few seconds as I soon realized that Cyril had a wonderful idea. Several games have already been themed in the Oz universe, and Disney is aiming to release an Oz movie prequel in 2013 – Oz: The Great and Powerful – so any "conventional" artwork would have been less interesting for being common and expected. To depict this fantastic world in the style of a Japanese cartoon is something original and appealing!

Not everyone agrees with the look of Oz, particularly the sexy style used for some of the illustrations, but in my opinion fantasy games already have so many illustrations of sexy realistic-looking women that the look of Oz should not disturb anyone. And honestly, I don't find the images shocking at all!

Emanuele Ornella
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Subscribe sub options Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:30 am
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Mario Brunelli
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Can I hope to see an italian edition?
 
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  • Edited Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:49 am
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David desJardins
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emaorny wrote:
in my opinion fantasy games already have so many illustrations of sexy realistic-looking women that the look of Oz should not disturb anyone


As has been pointed out repeatedly in the thread you linked to, the drawings of anatomically exaggerated women are definitely not realistic. If you think so, you should measure some actual women.
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  • Edited Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:04 am
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Tim Norris
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DaviddesJ wrote:
emaorny wrote:
in my opinion fantasy games already have so many illustrations of sexy realistic-looking women that the look of Oz should not disturb anyone


As has been pointed out repeatedly in the thread you linked to, the drawings of anatomically exaggerated women are definitely not realistic. If you think so, you should measure some actual women.


Nothing I've seen has "shocked" me. I look forward to this game being available.
 
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  • Posted Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:17 pm
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David desJardins
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greyelephant wrote:
Nothing I've seen has "shocked" me.


Me neither. What does that have to do with whether the drawings are realistic?
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  • Posted Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:23 pm
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Mark Thomason
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Looks like a great game, and I think the Manga style artwork is a good choice, but I do question why the witch has a cleavage-hole thing in her shirt. It's not a big sexualization thing, but it definitely adds a certain amount of sex to a game that is clearly being marketed towards younger folk.

The problem as I see it is that in art, if one is adding something in that might offend people, they should do it for a reason. The point of the art is to make the game look appealing, and since the little bit of sex in one card isn't going to draw anyone in to considering the game because of it, why thrown in that little bit of sex? What purpose does it serve? It's obvious from discussions on the geek that there are potential customers that will refuse to purchase it because of the perceived sexuality, so what point is made by putting it in there? If the target market were teenage or older males, it makes sense to throw some sex in. But if that's the idea, it's failed as well, since there's so little of it.

Assuming that's Dorothy, I have less concerns about any sexuality than I do about what the picture is supposed to be - it looks like her right shoulder is out of its socket or something, or there's a shoulder-like white object stuck in her hair? It looks kind of sloppy to me, no offense.

You can sex Dorothy up all you want, depending on your version of the Oz story, but do keep in mind that throughout the original book, Dorothy is referred to as a 'little girl'. Do we really want to encourage the idea that little girls are appropriate objects of desire? Really? Yeah, fantasy artwork is rife with sexual objects, both on the male and female side of things. Unlike most fantasy literature, fantasy artwork has traditionally combined the concept of fantasy as in 'fantastical, imaginary world' and fantasy as in 'unreachable desire' so I see what you're saying about
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fantasy games already have so many illustrations of sexy realistic-looking women that the look of Oz should not disturb anyone. And honestly, I don't find the images shocking at all!


But that said - Frank Baum's Oz series is not fantasy in that tradition. It is, and was at the time, and was always intended by the author, to be children's stories, and modern fairy tales. This is why in the entire series there are always pre-pubescent heroes and no overt sexuality in any of the 14 books he wrote.

I disagree that the artwork is 'realistic-looking women' as you say, but it doesn't disturb me. I don't find the images shocking at all, either. But I do find them somewhat sexual, which makes me less inclined to play a game like that with impressionable children, and it makes me unwilling, regardless how good the game might be, to recommend it to people who have children, because they might not want that kind of imagery being promoted to their children, and would not be happy with me for recommending such.

As this is going to be the case, I have to ask again. Why include the little bit of sexualization, as it's clear it will harm sales, however minimally, unless you have a point you're trying to make with it? What does having the cleavage and big chest on the witch gain you? Why does a little girl named Dorothy have a chest at all? It's a deviation from what the original story was, so you should have a reason behind those choices - that's what good art is. Good art doesn't make alterations and challenge people's taste without cause, it does it for a purpose. And as far as I can tell, unless you expect BGG controversy to stir up enough publicity to sell more units, (which seems unlikely) the only thing that aspect of the artwork is doing is reducing your market.

Not saying the manga artwork is a bad choice - you point out some good reasons to do something a little different - but just because it's manga style doesn't mean little girls have to have breasts and adult women have to have big boobs with visible cleavage. Were it me creating this game, I'd be asking the publisher and/or artist to consider redoing those cards a bit to make them less likely to upset prospective buyers with young children.
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  • Posted Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:10 pm
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Wow, some serious reactions here... surprise

All I want to say is that I think the artwork is great looking and distinctive. Definitely liking it, so that's one vote of support here!
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  • Posted Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:01 am
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Love Oz. Love the art. Rules seem interesting. Will buy.

That said, Dorothy doesn't look any more endowed than my wife or my neighbors so maybe I'm just desensitized. As for the wicked witch, she looks like an anime-cuddly version of what I learned a witch is supposed to BE.

Edit: Just in case
 
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  • Edited Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:56 pm
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David desJardins
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awakeneddragon wrote:
That said, Dorothy doesn't look any more endowed than my wife or my neighbors


It seems a bit strange to compare your wife to a 10-12 year old girl. But, even so, does your wife have a 16-inch waist, like the drawing?
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  • Edited Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:35 pm
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Ken H.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
It seems a bit strange to compare your wife to a 10-12 year old girl.


That's obviously not what he's doing. Just because she was a "little girl" in the novel doesn't mean she has to be a little girl in every variation of the story. There are countless examples of creators changing the age of a pre-existing character (see HBO's Game of Thrones or the recent Red Riding Hood film for two current examples).
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  • Posted Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:15 pm
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Ralph T
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There are a lot of styles in manga and anime. Picking a manga style was a creative move, but I'm not sure picking a sexualized children's style works. Maybe the boardgaming community will love it, like they did with Yomi, but I think there's room for different manga styles, and with so many choices in games, I can avoid the ones that my wife is not going to play because of the art direction. For a change of pace, I'd like a designer to not assume there's just one form of manga and look at a manga like Nodame Cantable for style, whether the female characters are pretty and realistically proportioned rather than hyper-cute and well-endowed?
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  • Edited Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:11 pm
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Patrick C.
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Labyrinth: The War On Terror is historically inaccurate & politically biased. It's the one popular game that violates BGG's requirements to keep politics out of gen. discussion. And yet it receives special treatment =US-centric views of this site.
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I just showed these images to my gf who has kids, including two girls, and asked her what she thought. Exact same impression: sexual and unrealistic. The large breasts and tiny wasit of the witch do not reprsent women except in the fantasy world of males.

And that is the point. Ok, so the game art is for males. That's within the publisher's right. But stop trying to say it's not for boys. Stop saying it's "realistic." And stop saying people who don't like the art are somehow wrong.

The publisher lost some sales because of this choice. Again, their right to make that choice. And my right to express my disapproval of that choice.
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  • Posted Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:14 pm
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Brian Jones
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Ugh - a game and theme that sounded great, but after seeing the choice of art I am no longer interested. I'm not all that concerned with the sexualization (although I do understand why someone else could be), it's just that the "manga" style is overdone and is not a good fit for the world of Oz in my opinion.

Take a look at the Oz comics by Eric Shanower (both his art and the new Marvel series with art from Skottie Young) - wish we could have seen art more along these lines for the game



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  • Posted Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:32 pm
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Scott Nelson
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What is it with Oz lately? 2 in one year.

As for the other dorothy pic - I'd say it is much more realistic.


 
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Yours Truly,
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ropearoni4 wrote:
What is it with Oz lately? 2 in one year.

As for the other dorothy pic - I'd say it is much more realistic.




More realistic, yes.
But also more ordinary and much less visually striking.
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  • Posted Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:29 pm
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Tim Stellmach
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Quote:
Not everyone agrees with the look of Oz, particularly the sexy style used for some of the illustrations, but in my opinion fantasy games already have so many illustrations of sexy realistic-looking women that the look of Oz should not disturb anyone.

The fact that this tripe is commonplace does not mean it's not tripe.
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  • Posted Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:54 pm
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Scott Nelson
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Since L. Frank Baum is dead, and this is his creation, do you think this is giving justice to his stories and the others who took over for him after his death? Wasn't it his own infant daughter Dorothy was named from, in memorandum?
This must be the Alternate OZ, from Anime-land. Something in the water there sure does something to their bodies and clothes.

You are trouncing on a lot of memories a lot of kids have had when reading those 40 books that were written about Oz.
 
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  • Edited Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:26 am
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I'm normally quite frustrated by games being 'sanitized' for our U.S. market. Particularly silly things like covering a breast on a reprint in a sophisticated adult game.

However, this sounds like a game that would playable in a family setting, and I have to admit that the art gives me pause as to whether I'd make it a gift to my friend and his two daughters. I can take the style, but the cleavage and blowing skirt is just enough to make me feel it not quite appropriate as a gift for a pre-tween.

Won't stop my personal enjoyment (or not) of the game, but probably cost a sale.
 
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  • Posted Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:59 am
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Scott Slomiany
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JohnnyDollar wrote:
ropearoni4 wrote:
What is it with Oz lately? 2 in one year.

As for the other dorothy pic - I'd say it is much more realistic.




More realistic, yes.
But also more ordinary and much less visually striking.


I disagree. It's MUCH more evocative of Oz stories than the same old sexed-up manga-styled art that seems to be everywhere. NOTHING strikes me as being OZ-like in the images that were submitted at the start of this thread...they appear to me to be your standard run-of-the-mill DeviantArt manga hobbyist handiwork. Because it's "edgy," I guess. Personally, I'm really tired of that look.

I guess the other question would be that if you are deliberately choosing to go with a more unusual style for Oz, why not go all the way and create a truly new vision of Oz (granted, not as morbid as the Todd McFarlane S and M Oz figures from a few years back)? Just poking around on google image search for Oz and I've found a couple of neat and interesting style people have come up with that still feels like Oz.

Here's a nice link to some Oz interpretations:
http://abduzeedo.com/wonderful-illustrations-wizard-oz

The sad part is that you can do evocative anime-styled artwork without resorting to the typical nerdisms of "tiny waisted big boobed girls in awesome comic book cover poses." Some of the Studio Ghibli movies are fantastic in this regard. The sample images just look like the "easy way out" and I would not have known they were actually for an Oz themed game unless I was told so.
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  • Edited Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:24 am
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ropearoni4 wrote:
You are trouncing on a lot of memories a lot of kids have had when reading those 40 books that were written about Oz.


I never read the Oz books when I was young, but I did read The Wonderful Wizard of Oz in my late 20s and thought the writing was terrible. Maybe I'd have a different take if I read it to my son now...
 
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  • Posted Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:27 am
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ghostOfChristmas wrote:


Here's a nice link to some Oz interpretations:
http://abduzeedo.com/wonderful-illustrations-wizard-oz

The sad part is that you can do evocative anime-styled artwork without resorting to the typical nerdisms of "tiny waisted big boobed girls in awesome comic book cover poses." Some of the Studio Ghibli movies are fantastic in this regard. The sample images just look like the "easy way out" and I would not have known they were actually for an Oz themed game unless I was told so.


Well said Scott and my thoughts exactly. Thanks for posting that link, I had looked around a bit but couldn't find anything this good. Many of the pics there are the work of Skottie Young from Marvel's Oz books, which are obviously manga/anime inspired, but are also original and appropiate for all ages.

And I agree with Eric that I do not find the Oz books all that well written or entertaining by todays standards, but we should remember that he was very much a Victorian and writing for an audience of that time. The world that he created has lived on to inspire many other creative works, some of them perhaps better than his original tale (Gregory Maguire and Wicked, I'm looking at you)
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  • Edited Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:34 am
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If you really want to learn about L. Frank Baum and what the meaning of The Wonderful Wizard of Oz then check this out:

http://www.themoneymasters.com/mm/

You can also listen to the audio of The Secret of Oz here:

http://www.archive.org/download/TheSecretOfOz/TheSecretsOfOz...
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JohnnyDollar wrote:
ropearoni4 wrote:
What is it with Oz lately? 2 in one year.

As for the other dorothy pic - I'd say it is much more realistic.




More realistic, yes.
But also more ordinary and much less visually striking.


If by "less visually striking" you mean I don't need to worry about getting an eyeball poked out by one of her boobs, then I wholeheartedly agree.
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  • Posted Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:57 pm
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One other thing I was thinking about, having worked on my different licensed products in the past...

The whole reason you use a pre-existing IP is to help capture warm-fuzzies of something that is familiar to whoever the product is being catered to. It should be trying to build off the trust and known quantities of the familiarity of that brand.

Anyone shopping for the OZ brand would just find this product completely ridiculous at best...or a cheap chinese knockoff at worse. If you really wanted to do a manga Sailor Moon-ish game, I almost feel that since the artwork will only attract manga fans, you might as well have gone balls-out on that aspect and don't bother with the Oz branding. The game sounds simple enough, and that there's nothing seemingly specific about it being Oz, there's probably no reason to shoehorn the Oz branding on to this.


I didn't even realize that the storybook image was supposed to be Glinda; she doesn't even come off as a witch but some sort of strange butterfly- fairy-nymph hybrid until I took a closer look at the text.
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  • Posted Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:03 pm
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ghostOfChristmas wrote:
One other thing I was thinking about, having worked on my different licensed products in the past...

The whole reason you use a pre-existing IP is to help capture warm-fuzzies of something that is familiar to whoever the product is being catered to. It should be trying to build off the trust and known quantities of the familiarity of that brand.


Maybe from a business/marketing/publisher angle, but if you read this designer diary that doesn't seem to be why this designer picked OZ, he was simply inspired by the stories and saw an interesting way to incorporate them into a game.

I would say the dynamics you describe helps sell a game, but I wouldn't go so far as calling that "the whole reason" a pre-existing IP is used. It would be depressing if THAT was the only spark of inspiration that ever starts a designer off on a new game: "oooh, THIS pre-existing IP will sell, this'll bring the warm fuzzies, I'll go with this, let me figure out a game off of this theme" Maybe it's a bit of wishful thinking but I like the purity of game design for its own sake, like art.
 
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  • Posted Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:03 pm
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Well, ok, maybe I'm being a little harsh, but there is a difference in "designing" a game, and "producing" one. From a design angle, sure, you may want to use pre-existing IP to play around in a world that you enjoy. And clearly, certain IPs will inspire certain different game designs ( you probably won't be seeing a chit-based squad-level war-game based on My Little Pony any time soon).

But when it comes to making a product, one that you have to sell in order to keep the doors open on an operation where people expect to get paid, you are hoping that by attaching that IP to your product you are going to make more money than you would otherwise without it.

Oz is kind of an interesting case, as the books are in public domain, and free, but the movie isn't...so you have to be careful with it because the "vision" of Oz that most people have with it are derived from the movie. and if you veer too far away from it, people are going to question it. Heck, in the original book, the slippers weren't ruby, and the head of the witches guard apparently has a bigger part tha the wicked witch. Wicked gets away with it since it's not Dorothy's story, but the witch, and most people know it from the play, which ties more closely to the movie than the book does.

There's probably not too many IPs in the public domain that have kind of strangeness to it ( where a lot of the touchstone cultural references are known from a dirivitive of a work, as opposed to the original). Most people probably know "Alice in Wonderland" (and really, most of the Grimm fairy tales) through Disney films. "Christmas Carol" would be kind of interesting in this regard, except that there isn't as singular cultural reference for it; all the CC movies are fairly similar to the original in most respects. Maybe some of the Jules Verne classics? Bela Legosa's Dracula maybe? Sherlock Holmes?

On another tangent, I am left wondering how well the Kosmos "famous book" series is selling versus their non-IP fare. Would anyone think that "Pillars of the Earth" would sell more or less if it was just "Build a Cathedral?" I know they've got some game out that is based on the "Godfather," which seems very worker placement, take control of the city mafia style kind of think. But I never got the sense that that was what the Godfather was about...it was more about the family relationships than performing actual crimes.

Guess I'll stop rambling now.
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  • Posted Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:59 pm
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W. Eric Martin
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JohnnyDollar wrote:
ghostOfChristmas wrote:
The whole reason you use a pre-existing IP is to help capture warm-fuzzies of something that is familiar to whoever the product is being catered to. It should be trying to build off the trust and known quantities of the familiarity of that brand.


Maybe from a business/marketing/publisher angle, but if you read this designer diary that doesn't seem to be why this designer picked OZ, he was simply inspired by the stories and saw an interesting way to incorporate them into a game.

I would say the dynamics you describe helps sell a game, but I wouldn't go so far as calling that "the whole reason" a pre-existing IP is used... Maybe it's a bit of wishful thinking but I like the purity of game design for its own sake, like art.


Alan Moore incorporated Dorothy (and Wendy and Alice) into Lost Girls because of "the familiarity of that brand", but he played off that familiarity and sent readers into an entirely different direction. Plenty of other artists want to put their own spin on the familiar, and I'd include Cyril's take on the look of Oz in that category.
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  • Posted Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:21 am
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Sam hudson
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If you include Button Bright I'm so outta here! I bought the whole series for the Nook and read the first five... I needed a break. They are very formulaic and quite dull. Hey, they are kiddie books afer all.
 
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  • Edited Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:10 pm
  • Posted Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:07 pm
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