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On Game Art and Objectification, Part II

Jason Beck
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Or: How I learned to stop worrying and love chainmail bikinis

This is the second post in the imaginatively-titled "Game Art and Objectification" series that is intended, somewhat unsurprisingly, to deal with art in games and sexualized objectification as it pertains to such. The first post dealt with whether or not this was even a queer issue and, though some of my commenters appeared to disagree, I do think it is. This post will be dealing with whether or not this kind of objectification spills over into our hobby (that is, the playing of games).

Whether or not sexualized objectification spills over into gaming is, I think, a question with a fairly obvious answer: Yes, of course it does. Sex is pervasive and, really, there isn’t any reason to think that it wouldn’t spill over into gaming. Video games provide startlingly obvious examples of this (Tomb Raider, Dragon Age, Soul Caliber, the list of video games with attractive female characters in various states of undress is fairly lengthy), but board games aren’t immune to this, either.

Many of the games that feature artwork with attractive, clearly-sexualized women seem to have been influenced at least a little by the fantasy genre. The genre itself is actually an excellent example of this kind of sexualized objectification: women in fantasy tend to fall into fairly specific tropes (powerful sorceress, bewitching temptress, damsel in distress, &c.), tropes that frequently sexualize women, often in unrealistic ways. The armor that women wear in these tropes, for example, is often ridiculous: no one is going to run into battle wearing a chainmail bikini.

Female figures themselves are often voluptuous or otherwise extremely "feminine", even if they are martial characters, carrying sword and shield into battle. More "masculine" looking women are rarely presented in these works (and this is very applicable to RPGs, too, not just to literary representations or video games), despite the fact that female warriors would require the kind of training and musculature to go into battle that might render them less classically "feminine" and therefore attractive. (A notable exception to this being the character of Brienne of Tarth in George RR Martin’s A Song of Ice and Fire, though he goes out of his way to describe how truly, truly ugly she is.)

This spill-over is readily apparent in even a cursory examination of board games (and, as I noted, is stunningly obvious in both video and role-playing games). Munchkin may be an interesting example of this trope insofar as it attempts to poke fun at it (and therefore acknowledges its existence), though Red Dragon Inn is, I think, a better one. In the base game, there are two male and two female characters: a priestess and a warrior/tank.

The priestess herself has enormous breasts and is, insofar as these things are possible, attractive. The warrior is attractive, too, and one of her cards even makes reference to chainmail bikini jokes. You may reasonably assert that this game is a send-up of the genre as well (and not be unreasonable in doing so), but, again, making fun of a topic requires the topic’s existence.

There are, of course, plenty of other examples of this, so let’s move on to a different genre. Last Night on Earth (yes, I’m returning to it again, but I usually only pick on games that I like) has a style of art that is deliberately evocative of B-level zombie movies and the women in it are photographed in a manner fitting said style. Interestingly, you can actually buy pin-ups of the women (though not of the men). And yes, of course, this is deliberate, but it is spill-over into the hobby.

This trend of sexualized objectification is not just limited to these specific instances. Twilight Imperium features a race of, uh, snake women, I guess (the Naalu) who, somewhat inexplicably, have breasts. Is there a reason for this aside from objectification? I’m not really sure that there is.

The point, though, is that this kind of objectification can spill over because of genre, because of well-worn tropes, because of imitation, or for other reasons.

Behind this spill-over is, I suspect (that is, aside from the usual "sex sells" argument), the ongoing (or at least lingering) notion that these things (games, fantasy, and so on) are mostly for heterosexual males. And, indeed, there is some truth to this stereotype (at least to an extent, though an ever-diminishing truth, I should think), so it remains unsurprising that sexualized imagery should be inserted into the hobby in such a fashion.

The art for men can, of course, be sexualized too, but it often seems to be sexualized in a different manner. That is, the picture of a strong, virile male/knight rescuing the beautiful (but ultimately helpless) lady/princess isn’t one that necessarily evokes a vibe of, "This man is being sexualized so that people will be attracted to him" so much as a vibe of, "This man is being sexualized so that people will want to be him." Who, after all, wants to be a beautiful (but helpless) damsel? But, then, who wouldn’t want to be the effortlessly-muscular hero who saves the world, gets the girl, and probably subverts some troublesome social norms (he is probably a Commoner Who Gets to Become Royalty) in the process?

So the short answer is this: Yes, sexualized objectification spills over into "our" hobby. It does this for a variety of reasons, and is, to an extent, so "normal" or "acceptable" that most people probably don’t even give it a second thought. There’s a sorceress in the game? Check. And she has large breasts? Check. Our work here is done? Check.
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Mc Jarvis
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Quote:

The art for men can, of course, be sexualized too, but it often seems to be sexualized in a different manner. That is, the picture of a strong, virile male/knight rescuing the beautiful (but ultimately helpless) lady/princess isn’t one that necessarily evokes a vibe of, "This man is being sexualized so that people will be attracted to him" so much as a vibe of, "This man is being sexualized so that people will want to be him." Who, after all, wants to be a beautiful (but helpless) damsel? But, then, who wouldn’t want to be the effortlessly-muscular hero who saves the world, gets the girl, and probably subverts some troublesome social norms (he is probably a Commoner Who Gets to Become Royalty) in the process?


I think this touches on societal respect for men and disrespect for women more than it touches on how sexuality is expressed. The art tells us women are in need of saving. It also projects a subtle message that they are incapable of saving themselves, perhaps.

This is why Shrek is the best knight story ever told.
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  • Edited Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:34 pm
  • Posted Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:29 pm
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Quote:
The art for men can, of course, be sexualized too, but it often seems to be sexualized in a different manner. That is, the picture of a strong, virile male/knight rescuing the beautiful (but ultimately helpless) lady/princess isn’t one that necessarily evokes a vibe of, "This man is being sexualized so that people will be attracted to him" so much as a vibe of, "This man is being sexualized so that people will want to be him." Who, after all, wants to be a beautiful (but helpless) damsel?


This is the difference between sexualization and objectification. The man is sexualized, it becomes a trait amongst many that he has. The women is objectified, she is acted upon and manipulated by the subject (in this case, a man who is rescuing her).

Frequently it is mistakenly believed by men that because women don't want to be objectified, they don't want to be sexualized. Likely because the vast majority of men, having never been objectified, don't know what it is, and so, trying to understand what it is, they look through their own life experiences and presume that objectification means sexualization (something they have experienced (or, in some cases, wish to experience)), even though the two are referring to completely different actions.
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  • Edited Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:51 pm
  • Posted Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:31 pm
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McJarvis wrote:
This is why Shrek is the best knight story ever told.


Uhhhh... huh? Care to explain this?
 
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  • Posted Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:41 pm
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I find the comments on this picture interesting (from a certain perspective, from another perspective, I red Xed a lot of them).

First because it's a card with three women on it, but one of the women isn't recognized as such because her breasts aren't large enough, she has short hair, and her jaw line is too strong. All of which are traits that many many women have, leading someone else to suggest (quite accurately) that if women aren't presented visually as highly sexualized, it will be presumed that they are actually men (because why else would they be there if they weren't highly sexualized, amiright?).

Second, because even though this is clearly meant to represent a powerful woman, and she isn't dressed provocatively, she still gets reduced by the men on these boards to being just a pair of breasts.

And finally, because someone actually states that because it's three women on the card (and no men) that it's Feminist Imperialism, and while I've seen many many representations of governments in games with all men, I have never heard them referred to as Masculist governments (it also happens to be three whites on the card, but the poster didn't say that it was White Supremacist Imperialism).

Uhhh... that last point isn't relevant here, I just needed to blow off some steam I think.
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  • Edited Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:10 pm
  • Posted Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:48 pm
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Mc Jarvis
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chearns wrote:
McJarvis wrote:
This is why Shrek is the best knight story ever told.


Uhhhh... huh? Care to explain this?


Princess Fiona was a "damsel in distress" who actually didn't need to be saved. (In a "saved from the tower" sense, anyway.) This was shown later in the film when she took out Robinhood pretty single-handedly.

edit-

More to the point, I suppose: she was not merely a plot device. She was a fleshed out character who maintained her gender identity while still demanding respect from the viewing audience. (in my opinion, of course) The more a princess in a knight story resembles a football that male leads pass back and forth between themselves, the less I'm interested.
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  • Edited Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:07 pm
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McJarvis wrote:
Princess Fiona was a "damsel in distress" who actually didn't need to be saved. (In a "saved from the tower" sense, anyway.) This was shown later in the film when she took out Robinhood pretty single-handedly.


And yet she was saved. Now, I suspect that possibly what they were trying to say is that society has convinced women that they will only be desired sexually if they are helpless (or pretend to be, as she did).

But the movie also includes an ending where she, now a full Troll, is shown to be weaker than Shrek, requiring fewer humans to keep her held down than Shrek does, and also includes a scene where one non-human (female) is in love with another non-human (male), and the female literally gets treated like a dog.

I've had many discussions about the movie Shrek. I think it does some stuff right (although people have argued with me that it's too subtle a message if that's what they really intended, and that most likely they simply wanted her to appear bad ass without giving her any actual agency in the story; they have a point) and some stuff wrong.
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  • Posted Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:06 pm
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Mc Jarvis
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I'd hate to derail the discussion, so I'll just say I think the dragon's boyfriend was kind of an ass.
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  • Posted Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:09 pm
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chearns wrote:
McJarvis wrote:
Princess Fiona was a "damsel in distress" who actually didn't need to be saved. (In a "saved from the tower" sense, anyway.) This was shown later in the film when she took out Robinhood pretty single-handedly.


And yet she was saved. Now, I suspect that possibly what they were trying to say is that society has convinced women that they will only be desired sexually if they are helpless (or pretend to be, as she did).

But the movie also includes an ending where she, now a full Troll, is shown to be weaker than Shrek, requiring fewer humans to keep her held down than Shrek does, and also includes a scene where one non-human (female) is in love with another non-human (male), and the female literally gets treated like a dog.

I've had many discussions about the movie Shrek. I think it does some stuff right (although people have argued with me that it's too subtle a message if that's what they really intended, and that most likely they simply wanted her to appear bad ass without giving her any actual agency in the story; they have a point) and some stuff wrong.


I love this blog. Jason's sense of humor is appealing, he makes good points in a consistently interesting way, and he writes informatively about from a viewpoint I agree with but (as a straight man) can't occupy myself. I enjoy reading his posts and the conversations that follow, but lately I find myself dreading the "new comments" flag in my subscriptions because of comments like this one that suck every last bit of fun out of every mundane thing with over the top agenda politics. About the only good thing I can say about this kind of discussion is that it's made me realize why so many moderate conservatives see progressives as shrill, implacable, and hysterical.

Edited to be less personal and more general, the rest I stand by.
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  • Edited Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:13 pm
  • Posted Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:28 pm
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More to the point of the post, a question for Jason:

Do you think boardgames are more or less sexualized than society/consumer goods in general? My tendency is to think of geeks as fairly progressive and liberal as a group, possibly just because that's the bent of my game group and friends. I'm wondering because I'm curious--if boardgames are less sexualized than say video games, is it because of some intrinsic quality of the target audience or just the nature of the products? That is, are gamers more mature and less interested in silly sexual stereotypes and tropes, or is it just that train games have less places to put the chain-mail bikini types?
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  • Posted Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:43 pm
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
but lately I find myself dreading the "new comments" flag in my subscriptions because of your unique ability to suck every last bit of fun out of every mundane thing with your over the top agenda politics. About the only good thing I can say about this kind of discussion is that it's made me realize why so many moderate conservatives see progressives as shrill, implacable, and hysterical.

For another viewpoint - I find this criticism to be over the top harsh (and far more over the top than the comment you're complaining about).
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  • Posted Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:05 pm
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russ wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
but lately I find myself dreading the "new comments" flag in my subscriptions because of your unique ability to suck every last bit of fun out of every mundane thing with your over the top agenda politics. About the only good thing I can say about this kind of discussion is that it's made me realize why so many moderate conservatives see progressives as shrill, implacable, and hysterical.

For another viewpoint - I find this criticism to be over the top harsh (and far more over the top than the comment you're complaining about).


I apologize if anyone thought this was harsh, though I don't think it to be so. I also apologize if it came off as personal, and I've changed it to be less so.

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  • Posted Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:14 pm
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That said, I stand by the point I was trying to make. Counting how many humans it takes to hold down a female ogre vs. a male ogre is exactly the kind of quibbling criticism that reinforces the opinion that the fight for equal rights is a silly, easily dismissed footnote.

Shrek is a good example, because I think the general message of the movie is positive on a number of levels. The princess is only captive because she believes she needs to be rescued by a man. She wants this in particular because she believes she needs to keep her superficial good looks in order to be worthy. The "lesson" of the movie is that she doesn't need those things--she's capable of rescuing herself, for one thing, and does so on several occasions. She also learns that her "ugly" self is an ok self to be, and that falling in love with someone who doesn't fit your narrow view of what your ideal partner should be is ok as well. We learn that even when people haven't been nice to you, it's ok to let the walls down because some people will still like you for who you are. We learn that a man who expects a woman to fall in love with him just because he's in charge may be sorely disappointed. The whole movie is about turning tropes on their ears and pointing out the subtle holes in "fairy-tale" logic.

And yes, it's subtle in making those points, because it's an entertainment, not a propaganda piece. The point of the movie was to make a huge pile of money, not to change the way people thought about gender politics. That doesn't diminish the social value of an entertainment that subverts some traditional expectations. So if my choice is between having my kids watch Shrek and learning some of those things or having them watch Cinderella wait around for Prince Charming, I'm going with Shrek every time. And they did it while being funny, telling a good story, and generally making a good film.

When someone holds up an example of steps in the right direction, even if they're baby steps, our side would do well to encourage them, not pick them apart. You're not going to get some arch-conservative to take their kids to see a "Shrek" film that has a blatant, over-the-top, politicized agenda. They'll avoid it like the plague, and blast you for your insidious attempt to "corrupt" their children. If you want to effect change you have to punch a million little holes in the dam, not try to knock the thing over. How many kids saw Shrek and changed their viewpoint on the world and gender politics a little bit for the better?

That said, if they made a joke of treating the dragon like a dog, isn't it entirely possible that the joke was about the fearsome, vicious, man-eating dragon of fairy-tale fame having an unlikely crush on an undersized talking donkey, not "woman = dog?" And that it was a cute funny moment in a movie full of cute funny moments?
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  • Posted Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:34 pm
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I don't think board gamers are a more progressive lot than the average person. I think you're right when you say trains and chainmail bikinis don't go very well together.

As to Jason's blog post itself, I think your summary paragraph at the end has it right on the money.
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  • Posted Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:39 am
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Let's take say, the original Soul Blade videogame as an example: you've got the warrior woman in tiny skirt (Sophitia), the lycra-clad demon slayer (Taki) and the cure lass (Seung Mina).

However the guy line-up (which is longer as usual as all fighting games pretty much have more males) mixes together the mad (Voldo), with the hard man (Rock) but also with handsome types who I think are portrayed as "sexually" as the women - Sigfried who is the hero of the series is a blonde, Germanic character....then you've got the Korean and Japanese swordsmen too who also have a lot going for them in that respect. I think numerous fighting and RPG games are overtly sexual with male characters as well (all rugged handsomeness, muscles and chiseled chins) but if this is being based on how skimpy armour is then you've got a point.

Male characters in this game are drawn from thousands of years of fighting and wars - the historical armour stylised, their ruggedness enhanced. Female characters are drawn more from legendary warriors or characters like the Valkyries, witches and sorceresses.

To take Mass Effect 2 as an example, the standard male Commander Shepherd (if you don't mess with his face at the start) is an attractive, handsome fella right? I wouldn't mind looking like him, that's for sure. Also, I'm pretty certain that Miranda is kinda pushed as the primary love interest in that game - but I went for Jack because of a background which is more interesting, seemed more challenging and "wooing" her would seem more rewarding.
 
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  • Posted Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:29 am
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chearns wrote:


I find the comments on this picture interesting (from a certain perspective, from another perspective, I red Xed a lot of them).

First because it's a card with three women on it, but one of the women isn't recognized as such because her breasts aren't large enough, she has short hair, and her jaw line is too strong. All of which are traits that many many women have, leading someone else to suggest (quite accurately) that if women aren't presented visually as highly sexualized, it will be presumed that they are actually men (because why else would they be there if they weren't highly sexualized, amiright?).



This is the first time I have seen this picture. In your thumbnail, without reading the description, I saw 2 women and 1 man. The man being on the left. When I clicked on the pic and saw it in a larger size I realized that the man was actually a woman.

Reading your post and looking at the image further, it seems to me that the artist has drawn a rather manly looking woman. The hairstyle, the facial structure, and the uniform all seem masculine to me. However, if you look closely, you will see that her breasts are about the same size as the womans on the right. Because of the way she is drawn, I had no problem at all noticing that she was a woman even in your thumbnail. I don't think that women need to be highly sexualized in order to appear as women, I simply think that this artist purposefully drew this particular woman to look rather masculine. For what reason I cannot say, but I would guess it has to do with her representing some form of military power just by going off of the uniform she is wearing. The uniform reminds me strongly of the Imperial uniforms from Star Wars.

To me, the woman on the right, while immediately recognizable as a woman does not appear to be overly sexualized. She could be any woman you see on the street or in an office on a daily basis. The woman in the center? She is much more typical of the type of art that OP is discussing in his blog.
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  • Posted Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:38 am
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Jason Beck
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Commenters are gently reminded that being nice is super duper. Some comments pop up, from time to time, that are a bit unkind, but for the most part I leave everything up unless it's a direct, malicious attack.

That is why, for example, there are plenty of comments on other posts of mine that are nakedly condescending (to me, usually, but sometimes to others) that I have left up.

Strident disagreement is, of course, acceptable; sometimes coming at an issue from very cross-purposes is a key to the development of ideas, and I have very little interest (as I've said before) in flat-out censorship, even if I disagree with the content of a post.

However, if you'd like to direct ad hominem attacks at me, I'd like to kindly ask you to put them into a GeekMail instead.

This has a couple of benefits: First, I get a GeekMail notification, and it makes me feel sexy and popular when I have them. Second, you still get to be a jerk to me (and who doesn't want to do that, amirite?). Third, it saves me the trouble of having to delete your post. It's a win-win-win!

(Edit: This is not directed at anyone in particular, but I did have to delete a post this morning, which is why I am bringing it up. On the whole the discussions on this blog have been fairly reasonable, something for which I am very appreciative.)
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  • Edited Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:53 pm
  • Posted Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:51 pm
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
More to the point of the post, a question for Jason:

Do you think boardgames are more or less sexualized than society/consumer goods in general? My tendency is to think of geeks as fairly progressive and liberal as a group, possibly just because that's the bent of my game group and friends. I'm wondering because I'm curious--if boardgames are less sexualized than say video games, is it because of some intrinsic quality of the target audience or just the nature of the products? That is, are gamers more mature and less interested in silly sexual stereotypes and tropes, or is it just that train games have less places to put the chain-mail bikini types?


This is actually a really interesting question and, rather than post a wall of text about it here, I may discuss it in a future post.

I will, in short, say a few things about it:

First, that I don't think board gamers are necessarily more liberal or conservative than their respective societies are, though I have only anecdotal evidence to support this. (Incidentally, I am planning a future post to discuss why I think board gamers ought to be more socially progressive, but that is a side point.)

Second, that I think the answer is basically that it depends on both the audience and the medium. In a video game, you usually have a character; this is not necessarily the case in a board game. You don't need to make trains sexy, after all. So I would agree with the assertion that the medium of board games lends itself less to sexualization than that of video games.

I think there are some elements of the audience and context mattering, too, though right not my thoughts are not articulated sufficiently that I want to go down that rabbit hole. Sorry, I know that's kind of a cop-out. whistle
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  • Posted Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:02 pm
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I love a good friendly discussion, one of my favourite things in life. Sadly I can only see things properly through my own eyes but reading responses on blogs like this help to create a rounder understanding of issues and.....STUFF!
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  • Posted Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:03 pm
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Colonial One wrote:

First, that I don't think board gamers are necessarily more liberal or conservative than their respective societies are.


This. Due to living in a strongly conservative area of the country for much of my life and then moving to a more liberal area of the country, I have had the opportunity to be shocked that individuals in both areas consider "intelligent" people more likely to agree with them. (It's worth noting that the experiment that is my life has confirmed that both conservatives and liberals are decidedly pro-fun, and thus fans of boardgames).

I highly recommend finding someone you respect who happens to disagree with you. It's a real eye opener to the basic value of humanity. (and humbling too)

edit-

Colonial One wrote:

You don't need to make trains sexy, after all.


Nothing needs to be made sexai, but it does make things oh-so good.

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  • Edited Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:23 pm
  • Posted Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:18 pm
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McJarvis wrote:
I have had the opportunity to be shocked that individuals in both areas consider "intelligent" people more likely to agree with them.


If the other side is less intelligent than you are, it's easy to dismiss their arguments.
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  • Posted Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:24 pm
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Strident disagreement is, of course, acceptable; sometimes coming at an issue from very cross-purposes is a key to the development of ideas, and I have very little interest (as I've said before) in flat-out censorship, even if I disagree with the content of a post.


Wow, you deleted my post.

Really? This is twice now...this article and the last blog "segment".
 
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  • Edited Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:19 pm
  • Posted Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:37 pm
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
Counting how many humans it takes to hold down a female ogre vs. a male ogre is exactly the kind of quibbling criticism that reinforces the opinion that the fight for equal rights is a silly, easily dismissed footnote.


That was one part of a larger argument. The fact you only have that to point at while you insist that you're right and not insulting anyone pretty much shows your post as the offensive horsehit it was.
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  • Posted Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:38 pm
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
And that it was a cute funny moment in a movie full of cute funny moments?


The card This Could be our Last Night on Earth was a nod to B-Horror film tropes in a game full of nods to B-Horror film tropes. I think that talking about that card at all reinforces the opinion that the fight for equal rights is a silly, easily dismissed footnote.

Listen, I said it before and I'll say it again, Shrek gets some things right and some things wrong.

I think the message that women can be loved and capable is a good one.

But the movie doesn't even pass the Bechdel Test. It doesn't even make it to the basic requirement of having two female characters with names. And the Bechdel test isn't even about if the movie is progressive, it really just asks do you have anything remotely close to the real world in your representations of gender.

You want me to defend a movie that makes baby steps? Give me actual baby steps. Give me at least more than one named female character in your movie.

Especially because the message you are saying the movie espouses, is the plot B. Plot A is about Shrek. He's the lead character (I'd also note that the movie, like almost all movies, passes the reverse Bechdel test). And what he learns in the movie is something completely different, and it's also the main focus of the movie.

Which, curiously, while historically fairy tales about princesses being rescued was told mostly from the female's perspective, this movie turns it on it's head by... wait for it... telling the story from the man's perspective. Wow, how progressive is that, taking the tiny slice of fiction that women had as the primary characters and making them the secondary characters.

And for all the talk of her being a strong woman who could have rescued herself from the dragon had she so wished, she can't prevent Shrek from rescuing her (no agency for Fiona), she goes along with Farquaad because of Shrek's failure to tell her how he feels (no agency for Fiona), and finally she ends up back with Shrek, because he decides to prevent the marriage and rescue her (no agency for Fiona).

I fail to see how that is all that different from similar tales of women as trophies fought over by men.

And this is also me avoiding pointing out that Fiona's goal throughout the entire film is to be with a man and that she can only accept herself as an Ogre once she gets a man's approval, prior to that she can only see herself as hideous.

Another note about the ending of the movie is to point out that, for love to work between Shrek and Fiona, Shrek gets to stay exactly who he is, but Fiona has to change. How's that for a message.

But still, it gets some stuff right. And I bet that if Fiona was the plot A (in other words, she was the principal character and the movie was called Fiona, and not Shrek) instead of the plot B, and if the movie passed the Bechdel test, then it would probably not have the elements that undercut the plot B message (like she's bad ass, but not when it counts, or she can fight, but at the end of the movie, she still needs to be rescued).

You want to believe that Shrek is progressive when it comes to gender? Fine, you are free to do so. But that doesn't make it so. Shrek teaches exactly the same rigid gender roles as Sleeping Beauty does (women will find fulfillment in marriage, women can't make decisions on their own, women need a man, women should be nurturing, they need a man's approval on their appearance...). It's just better at hiding it.
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  • Posted Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:43 pm
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Magic Pink wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
Counting how many humans it takes to hold down a female ogre vs. a male ogre is exactly the kind of quibbling criticism that reinforces the opinion that the fight for equal rights is a silly, easily dismissed footnote.


That was one part of a larger argument. The fact you only have that to point at while you insist that you're right and not insulting anyone pretty much shows your post as the offensive horsehit it was.


I apologized for being offensive to CS, and edited my post to keep it from being a personal attack or directed at an individual. I will not apologize for my opinion, though you are welcome to disagree. I will continue to insist that I'm right unless someone convinces me otherwise because that's how a discussion works--I have an opinion, someone else has an opinion, we talk about our opinions of each other's opinions, and hopefully come away with a better understanding of each other and possibly even a somewhat amended opinion. I am sorry I made it personal, CS didn't deserve that. I am not sorry I called the opinion hysterical and the position implacable. I think if progressives create a culture of criticism where no one can ever do it "right" then "mainstream" society will increasingly dismiss progressive opinions as fringe and extremist rather than taking them seriously. I think that's a bad thing for everyone.
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  • Posted Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:07 pm
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Dave,

I agree that it's important to highlight when something gets it right.

When I talk about games I often speak of games like Pandemic or Ghost Stories that get it right. Or the upcoming Atlantis Rising game (where the creator of the game was harsher than I was on the representation). Or even Castle Ravenloft (which is not perfect, but pretty good, and when compared to either the rest of D&D, or Fantasy in general, it's groundbreaking).

But all of that doesn't mean that I have to pretend that something gets it right when it doesn't.
 
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  • Posted Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:18 pm
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Gary Simpson


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I agree that it's important to highlight when something gets it right...Castle Ravenloft


So having an obvious sexual icon (vampire) that is also a homicidal male aristocrat on the box cover is completely ok.



Along with a card called "Gray Hag" used for promotion...

I guess at the end of the day, I'm missing the point.

 
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  • Posted Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:36 pm
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chearns wrote:
but pretty good, and when compared to either the rest of D&D


D&D is a game where you invent your own character however you want. You make all of the choices.

My female D&D characters are pure assbeat. The last one happened to also be dumb as a post, but she played the hand she was dealt. (This usually involved beating people with said post.)

 
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  • Edited Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:43 pm
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My problem with this is that you're making the comparison between Shrek and "perfectly balanced gender-neutral film" and saying Shrek comes up short. I'm making the comparison between Shrek and "Cinderella" and saying it comes up looking like a vast improvement.

To address some of your points specifically:

cshearns wrote:
Especially because the message you are saying the movie espouses, is the plot B. Plot A is about Shrek. He's the lead character (I'd also note that the movie, like almost all movies, passes the reverse Bechdel test). And what he learns in the movie is something completely different, and it's also the main focus of the movie.


Shrek's "lessons" are certainly one of the main focuses of the movie. He's the titular character and all. Are they generally bad lessons, though? Are the lessons Shrek learns (that it's good to be ok with yourself, good to rely on your friends and not wall people out just because some people are bullies, and good to stand up for yourself when someone treats you badly) inherently bad or demeaning to women? You could argue that Shrek's "ogreness" and the resultant torch-and-pitchfork responses is analogous to being gay, or an ethnic or religious minority, or just being geeky, and I would say in any and all those cases the lesson is still good: be who you are, and find people who love you enough not to care.

cshearns wrote:
Which, curiously, while historically fairy tales about princesses being rescued was told mostly from the female's perspective, this movie turns it on it's head by... wait for it... telling the story from the man's perspective. Wow, how progressive is that, taking the tiny slice of fiction that women had as the primary characters and making them the secondary characters.


This is an example of where I feel like some of this criticism is totally impossible to answer effectively. While I think you'd largely argue that the historical "fairy tale" treatment of women is pretty demeaning, you'll also argue that subverting that stereotype is somehow robbing women of their place in fiction? Also, I think that this is an oversimplification, as they also turn that trope on its ear by having Fiona rescue Shrek from the outlaws.

cshearns wrote:
And for all the talk of her being a strong woman who could have rescued herself from the dragon had she so wished, she can't prevent Shrek from rescuing her (no agency for Fiona), she goes along with Farquaad because of Shrek's failure to tell her how he feels (no agency for Fiona), and finally she ends up back with Shrek, because he decides to prevent the marriage and rescue her (no agency for Fiona).


She doesn't prevent Shrek from rescuing her because she's incapable, she doesn't prevent him because at the time that's what the character thinks she wants to happen. I don't think saying that she didn't do what you would have liked her to do is the same as saying she was incapable of action or meaningful decisions. I would also venture to suggest that since it's a children's movie you would find the agency of any of the characters to be somewhat lacking.

cshearns wrote:
And this is also me avoiding pointing out that Fiona's goal throughout the entire film is to be with a man and that she can only accept herself as an Ogre once she gets a man's approval, prior to that she can only see herself as hideous.


I think you're conflating two "lessons," if we'll call them that. She wants a man because she thinks she's living the stereotypical fairy tale life. To subvert that in the end (which was the goal of the movie, if not for agenda's sake but because it made it a more interesting movie) it had to be established as convention within the story. As for the ogre bit, I think you're spinning it pretty hard. She thinks she's hideous as an ogre for the same reasons Shrek thinks of himself that way. The point is not that she gets approval from a man, it's that she realizes just like Shrek does that it's ok to be an ogre, whatever being an ogre means in your life. That you won't be excluded from love or friendship just because you're different. I also think that this can be seen as encouraging kids to learn that it's ok to just love whomever you want, regardless of whether they're the one you're "supposed" to love. I think that's valuable. Even if this particular case is about humans and ogres, it's the same lesson I want my kids to learn about homosexual couples, interracial couples, etc.

cshearns wrote:
Another note about the ending of the movie is to point out that, for love to work between Shrek and Fiona, Shrek gets to stay exactly who he is, but Fiona has to change. How's that for a message.

This is another "oh, come on" moment for me. If Shrek had to become human, for instance, would it be better? Wouldn't that message be "superficial traits are far more important than what's on the inside?" That also ignores all the ways in which Shrek has to change in his character arc for Fiona to love him--he has to be kind, to open up, to accept help from friends, etc. Again, none of those seems to me to be an inherently bad message.

And I appreciate you saying that Shrek gets some things right. I think we just have starkly different opinions on how important those little things are. Again, I see Shrek as an innocent piece of mass-market children's entertainment. If there are some small good lessons to be taken from that and a couple million kids saw it and took something positive away from it I think it's far more valuable in making progress than an "activist" film espousing a progressive social agenda that nine people will ever see.

So I'll agree with you--if the progressive binary here is "perfectly balanced, gender neutral, sex-positive, female-empowering, not heteronormative film" or "failure," then Shrek fails to be progressive.
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  • Edited Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:51 pm
  • Posted Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:48 pm
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jdludlow wrote:

My female D&D characters are pure assbeat. The last one happened to also be dumb as a post, but she played the hand she was dealt. (This usually involved beating people with said post.)



This just cracked my shit up.

I would also add that in my tabletop RPG experience the characters are only as well-rounded as the players at the table make them, and in my group the female characters are generally far more than chain-mail bikinis or beautiful sorceresses.
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  • Posted Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:53 pm
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
I will continue to insist that I'm right unless someone convinces me otherwise because that's how a discussion works...


I approach a discussion differently. I will say what my opinion is, but I will also be open to the idea that I am wrong. I do not insist I am right. I have an opinion, and I understand that it is based off of my experiences. Others will hold their opinions based off of their own experiences. They might be equally as valid as my own, or more so!

Usually less so, because I'm usually right.

djgutierrez77 wrote:
...I have an opinion, someone else has an opinion, we talk about our opinions of each other's opinions, and hopefully come away with a better understanding of each other and possibly even a somewhat amended opinion.


This does not seem to align with the first part of the statement.

But that's just my opinion.
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  • Posted Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:56 pm
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downeymb wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
I will continue to insist that I'm right unless someone convinces me otherwise because that's how a discussion works...


I approach a discussion differently. I will say what my opinion is, but I will also be open to the idea that I am wrong. I do not insist I am right. I have an opinion, and I understand that it is based off of my experiences. Others will hold their opinions based off of their own experiences. They might be equally as valid as my own, or more so!

Usually less so, because I'm usually right.

djgutierrez77 wrote:
...I have an opinion, someone else has an opinion, we talk about our opinions of each other's opinions, and hopefully come away with a better understanding of each other and possibly even a somewhat amended opinion.


This does not seem to align with the first part of the statement.

But that's just my opinion.


I was being a little facetious, but I think it does align. What I'm trying to say is I never come to a discussion thinking my opinion is wrong. If I did, it wouldn't be my opinion. I think I'm right, that's sort of inherent to having an opinion. I'm not saying it can't be swayed or changed or sometimes reversed completely, but I don't think the fact that other people have opinions makes mine any less right. There's also a difference between validity of an opinion and "rightness" of an opinion. If your opinion is that apples are a meat product, and my opinion is that they are a fruit, your opinion isn't valid and it's also wrong. If your opinion is that all men are rapists, that's not an invalid opinion, but that doesn't mean I'll agree that you're "right."

So yes, I see more of CS's point after reading the last post. I still disagree with much of it, but the discussion of it has certainly helped clarify and change my opinion a bit.
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  • Posted Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:05 pm
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Thanks a lot, everyone. Now I have to go watch Shrek.
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  • Posted Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:24 pm
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Geese wrote:
Thanks a lot, everyone. Now I have to go watch Shrek.


If you haven't seen it, you're in for a treat. It's a very fun movie.

Coincidentally, I watched PCU for the 100th time last night. I thought about this thread more than once.

 
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  • Posted Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:27 pm
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jdludlow wrote:
Geese wrote:
Thanks a lot, everyone. Now I have to go watch Shrek.


If you haven't seen it, you're in for a treat. It's a very fun movie.

Coincidentally, I watched PCU for the 100th time last night. I thought about this thread more than once.



Man, I barely made it through PCU the one time. 100 times is impressive.
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  • Posted Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:37 pm
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
What I'm trying to say is I never come to a discussion thinking my opinion is wrong.


Now this I agree with! (Or should I say this is something with which I agree? Stupid preposition rules)

I know of a gentlemen who ends every statement in an argument/discussion with "...and that's why you're wrong and I'm right."

I read the previous way of stating it as more active and it reminded me of that guy.

Trust me, you don't want to be that guy.

 
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  • Posted Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:42 pm
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chearns wrote:

But the movie doesn't even pass the Bechdel Test. It doesn't even make it to the basic requirement of having two female characters with names.

[...]

Especially because the message you are saying the movie espouses, is the plot B. Plot A is about Shrek. He's the lead character (I'd also note that the movie, like almost all movies, passes the reverse Bechdel test). And what he learns in the movie is something completely different, and it's also the main focus of the movie.


To chirp in after following this discussion but not commenting until now. I find this type of bright line rule to be unhelfpul, and ultimately harmful. Whatever your idea of positive gender roles are (and I suspect that there is relatively little diversity on this question among readers of this blog), drawing simplistic lines such as this one serves only to separate an enlightened minority from the masses. I think most social problems are best dealt with through more diversity of expression, not less, and this test seems to serve to narrow the range of acceptable expression.

In my ideal world, a lot of things are different, but movies primarily about dudes and with no important female characters can still exist. That isn't really important right now, because such films aren't really at risk. But my larger point is that it is a bad enterprise to set out and divide the world into things that are ok and things that are not. It is a position that rather than embracing some positive vision of what a good world looks like, identifies the bad and seeks to ostracize it. This practice goes against my idea of what the good is.

I have two more specific reasons why I think blunt tests of media are bad. First, separating the good from the bad is never so simple, and I think the disagreement over Shrek supports that meaning is not simple. Second, when you draw lines making some material not acceptable, 99 time out of 100, it's the disempowered group that is going to suffer. Here's an example--only a bit over a decade ago, the apparent consensus among the most outspoken feminists was that pornography was universally bad and harmful. A minority of both straight and gay feminists sought to embrace their various sexualities through porn, and were largely ostracized from mainstream feminism and relegated to fringe groups. These groups attempts at expression and agency were opposed by the larger movement in a striking parallel to others' negative reactions to feminism.

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  • Edited Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:53 pm
  • Posted Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:50 pm
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chearns wrote:
But the movie doesn't even pass the Bechdel Test. It doesn't even make it to the basic requirement of having two female characters with names. And the Bechdel test isn't even about if the movie is progressive, it really just asks do you have anything remotely close to the real world in your representations of gender.


Other movies that don't pass the Bechdel Test: Most, if not all, of the movies listed here.

I'm not sure what your point is. The Bechdel Test is a measure that some people (or at least some characters in 1980's comics) use to filter the entertainment they are willing to watch, but it's by no means some sort of objectively dispositive method for judging the value of entertainment. It's not even a good measure of whether the film is a net positive or negative in terms of gender messaging. It is possible for a film to pass the Bechdel Test and still be misogynistic and/or anti-feminist.

Quote:
You want to believe that Shrek is progressive when it comes to gender? Fine, you are free to do so. But that doesn't make it so. Shrek teaches exactly the same rigid gender roles as Sleeping Beauty does (women will find fulfillment in marriage, women can't make decisions on their own, women need a man, women should be nurturing, they need a man's approval on their appearance...). It's just better at hiding it.


I'm not sure anybody claimed that Shrek is progressive on gender issues. In fact, what Dave said was:
Quote:
I think the general message of the movie is positive on a number of levels. [...] The whole movie is about turning tropes on their ears and pointing out the subtle holes in "fairy-tale" logic.

And yes, it's subtle in making those points, because it's an entertainment, not a propaganda piece. The point of the movie was to make a huge pile of money, not to change the way people thought about gender politics.


On a comparative basis with most other Disney-style fairy tales, Shrek ends up being progressive, just by virtue of flipping those tropes around, even though it wasn't intended specifically to address gender issues.

I think it's kind of funny that you say "Shrek teaches exactly the same rigid gender roles as Sleeping Beauty does. ... It's just better at hiding it." At what point do those lessons become so well-hidden that the children they are allegedly indoctrinating don't actually learn them? (Also, I think your litany of gender role reinforcement is just wrong; Dave pointed out where the traditional roles of the fairy tale genre - so clear in Sleeping Beauty, for instance - are undermined and overturned.)
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  • Posted Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:56 pm
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Golux13 wrote:

I'm not sure anybody claimed that Shrek is progressive on gender issues. In fact, what Dave said was:


Some un-enlightened individual said:

McJarvis wrote:

I think this touches on societal respect for men and disrespect for women more than it touches on how sexuality is expressed. The art tells us women are in need of saving. It also projects a subtle message that they are incapable of saving themselves, perhaps.

This is why Shrek is the best knight story ever told.


He obviously was saying that Shrek is a shining example of feminist expression. Maybe he was confused and thought Shrek was a girl?

Though, re-reading what he said it's also possible he was specifically addressing one aspect of Shrek in comparison to other films in the same genre (fairy tale movies)

edit- I'm vaguely sorry for introducing Shrek into this conversation at all, since it's turned into a discussion about feminism instead of the OP's original topic.
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  • Edited Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:37 pm
  • Posted Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:32 pm
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CS Hearns
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McJarvis wrote:
I'm vaguely sorry for introducing Shrek into this conversation at all, since it's turned into a discussion about feminism instead of the OP's original topic.


Trust me when I say I'm at definitely disappointed that I followed up on why you mentioned Shrek.
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  • Posted Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:48 pm
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I think you need to pick your battles Jason. You are going off on the women, when you could just as easily gone off about the men who are depicted as ideals too. I've seen girls choose a guy token because he's ripped... And how many barbarians are out there in a state of undress with their rugged lines and square jaws? I would never go into a dungeon in nothing but fur skivvies and boots up to my calves!
Who is this for?


P
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  • Posted Sat Apr 16, 2011 5:30 am
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Phil of Mars wrote:
I think you need to pick your battles Jason. You are going off on the women, when you could just as easily gone off about the men who are depicted as ideals too. I've seen girls choose a guy token because he's ripped... And how many barbarians are out there in a state of undress with their rugged lines and square jaws? I would never go into a dungeon in nothing but fur skivvies and boots up to my calves!
Who is this for?


P


I wish you were right and that it was just as easily about male objectification, but for every hot guy in a game, there's about 10 hot women. For example, take the often used Last Night on Earth: all the women are attractive, but there's only one ripped guy. For every Johnny, there's a Jake and Father Joseph.
And for every one instance of actual homoerotic male art, there's probably many many more pictures of homoeroticized women.
These figures are just guesses based on my experiences. I'd love to see your list of games with hot guys in them.
 
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  • Posted Sat Apr 16, 2011 3:23 pm
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Depends what you mean by hot. Video game-wise just looking at my shelf I could list:

Ezio (Assassin's Creed 2)
Altair (Assassin's Creek)
Nathan Drake (Uncharted)
Chris Redfield (Resident Evil)
Leon whateverhisnameis (Resi Evil - seems to be popular)
John Marston (Red Dead Redemption)
The guy from No More Heroes
Commander Shepherd (Mass Effect 2)

Though of course most of these are "straight friendly" I guess as they're guys that male gamers are happy to be cos they're cool. Still, I hear TERRIBLE rumours that some women like to play as the attractive female characters like Lara Croft, Jill Valentine or Faith from Mirror's Edge.
 
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  • Posted Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:18 pm
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HamsterOfFury wrote:
Depends what you mean by hot. Video game-wise just looking at my shelf I could list:

Ezio (Assassin's Creed 2)
Altair (Assassin's Creek)
Nathan Drake (Uncharted)
Chris Redfield (Resident Evil)
Leon whateverhisnameis (Resi Evil - seems to be popular)
John Marston (Red Dead Redemption)
The guy from No More Heroes
Commander Shepherd (Mass Effect 2)

Though of course most of these are "straight friendly" I guess as they're guys that male gamers are happy to be cos they're cool. Still, I hear TERRIBLE rumours that some women like to play as the attractive female characters like Lara Croft, Jill Valentine or Faith from Mirror's Edge.


I know nothing about the video games you mentioned and I'm only really interested in the art work on board games.

By hot I mean attractive and, if we're going to compare with lots of representations of women, to an extent sexualized; men getting their shirts off, sort of thing (the equivalent, in my opinion, of having exaggerated breasts, a bikini, or torn clothes on women). Being buff isn't enough of a deviation since these are character tropes that are required to be in good shape in order to be pleasing for men who want to play manly men when they game. Sex and objectification doesn't enter into it; whether these male characters are pleasing for women or not is moot because most of these games are not targeted at a female market.

Jason's original point about female characters that shouldn't have to be sexualized (such as a priestess) ending up being sexualized, when the male equivalent wouldn't be, is telling about the roles and objectification of both men and women in board games. What would the chances be of Father Joseph in LNOE being an attractive young man with muscles bulging underneath his priest uniform? Not high. If there was a nun character, I bet she'd be hot.
 
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  • Posted Sat Apr 16, 2011 5:43 pm
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Also note that the attractive male characters often seem intended to be there for the benefit of male players who want to identify with that powerful man (and it's a happy coincidental side effect if female players find the male characters to be sexy), while the attractive female characters often seem intended to be there for the benefit of male players who want to have sex with that sexy woman (but often women find those female characters not something they want to identify with).
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  • Posted Sat Apr 16, 2011 6:07 pm
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russ wrote:
Also note that the attractive male characters often seem intended to be there for the benefit of male players who want to identify with that powerful man (and it's a happy coincidental side effect if female players find the male characters to be sexy), while the attractive female characters often seem intended to be there for the benefit of male players who want to have sex with that sexy woman (but often women find those female characters not something they want to identify with).


So sexy men are powerful, and are there so that straight guys can identify with them, but sexy women are there to be coveted? Perhaps this doesn't have much to do with the art itself, but with us, and how we consume it.
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  • Posted Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:27 pm
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Jefforama wrote:
So sexy men are powerful, and are there so that straight guys can identify with them, but sexy women are there to be coveted? Perhaps this doesn't have much to do with the art itself, but with us, and how we consume it.

Yes, and also with how we produce it (or how the producers produce it, if we ourselves are not producers). There is surely some bidirectional feedback loop at work, not just one-way.
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  • Posted Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:33 pm
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russ wrote:
Also note that the attractive male characters often seem intended to be there for the benefit of male players who want to identify with that powerful man (and it's a happy coincidental side effect if female players find the male characters to be sexy), while the attractive female characters often seem intended to be there for the benefit of male players who want to have sex with that sexy woman (but often women find those female characters not something they want to identify with).


So sexy men are powerful, and are there so that straight guys can identify with them, but sexy women are there to be coveted? Perhaps this doesn't have much to do with the art itself, but with us, and how we consume it.



That may or may not be. I have sat in on several games where the girl picks the "hottest one" and exclaims, I wanna be her she's hot! Or check it out I have boobs now!
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  • Edited Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:32 am
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Phil of Mars wrote:
russ wrote:
That may or may not be. I have sat in on several games where the girl picks the "hottest one" and exclaims, I wanna be her she's hot! Or check it out I have boobs now!
P


Just out of curiosity, did the men rave about how hot their male character was?
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  • Posted Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:10 pm
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russ wrote:
Jefforama wrote:
So sexy men are powerful, and are there so that straight guys can identify with them, but sexy women are there to be coveted? Perhaps this doesn't have much to do with the art itself, but with us, and how we consume it.

Yes, and also with how we produce it (or how the producers produce it, if we ourselves are not producers). There is surely some bidirectional feedback loop at work, not just one-way.


Yes, that makes sense. But when an image of an attractive and scantily clad person has such a different meaning based on gender, it looks like it's a lot more in the interpretation than the production. Can you imagine or describe a game where both sexy men and women are present, and the men are not there for emulation while the women are to be coveted? If not, that suggests to me that games just can't have sexual content without being sexist, a position that I would resist.
 
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  • Posted Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:17 pm
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Just out of curiosity, did the men rave about how hot their male character was?

LOL! no.
Well, just my brother...



I think the problem, if there is one, is that games are made by largely male hetero boardrooms. Until the gays get people inside to actively speak, they have no voice. They can bitch and moan all they want, in the street, in the court, in the army, but it boils down to a boardroom decision between a handful of people on how things will go. If the room is conservative, no amount of whining is going to stir them. it may even solidify their resolve. You have to actually get in there. through the glass ceiling. Change comes from within.

P
 
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  • Posted Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:48 am
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Phil of Mars wrote:
I think you need to pick your battles Jason. You are going off on the women, when you could just as easily gone off about the men who are depicted as ideals too. I've seen girls choose a guy token because he's ripped... And how many barbarians are out there in a state of undress with their rugged lines and square jaws? I would never go into a dungeon in nothing but fur skivvies and boots up to my calves!
Who is this for?


P


He IS picking his battles - female objectification as opposed to male. You can disagree with his selection criteria, but he is picking.

I guess I don't like the phrase "pick your battles" because it's so often used as a reason not to pick ANY battles! Or to pick on someone who has a chosen a battle we don't care for. And so on
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  • Posted Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:38 pm
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Hi everyone I'm back from holiday!

What been happening....

Quote:
This is why Shrek is the best knight story ever told.


Followed closely by Joan of Arc.

I feel as if we all agree on the basics and so now are agreeing to disagree on all the tertiary issues. In truth I would suggest that the problem is not these tertiary issues but instead contained within our solved basic issues.

I think we have all accepted and built upon the fallacy of binaries. We appear to have removed nuance to build debate. Debate without nuance looks theoretical but is false and decisive.

I rather feel that we need to unpack and smash our shared male/female, heterosexual/homosexual, masculine/feminine binary assumptions.

I agree with every post written above. whistle
 
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  • Edited Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:39 pm
  • Posted Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:12 pm
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monkeyhandz wrote:
Hi everyone I'm back from holiday!

What been happening....

Quote:
This is why Shrek is the best knight story ever told.


Followed closely by Joan of Arc.


Well, the end is kind of a downer.
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  • Posted Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:26 pm
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Emperor JD wrote:

What would the chances be of Father Joseph in LNOE being an attractive young man with muscles bulging underneath his priest uniform? Not high. If there was a nun character, I bet she'd be hot.


Not the one I designed....

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  • Posted Thu May 5, 2011 10:53 pm
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