The Hotness
Games|People|Company
Dominion: Dark Ages
Total War
Mage Knight: Board Game
Fantastiqa
Libertalia
The Lord of the Rings: Nazgul
Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)
Eclipse
Mice and Mystics
Doctor Who: The Card Game
Lords of Waterdeep
Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures Game
Agricola: All Creatures Big and Small
Dungeon Fighter
Android: Netrunner
Virgin Queen
A Game of Thrones: The Board Game (Second Edition)
Glory to Rome
Infiltration
Collapsible D: The Final Minutes of the Titanic
Dominion
The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game
Twilight Struggle
City of Horror
Snowdonia
1989: Dawn of Freedom
Goa
Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective
Agricola
Among the Stars
7 Wonders: Cities
7 Wonders
The Swarm
Through the Ages: A Story of Civilization
Arkham Horror
Village
Ora et Labora
Battles of Westeros: House Baratheon Army Expansion
Race for the Galaxy
War of the Ring
Trajan
Kingdom Builder
The Castles of Burgundy
Zombicide
Twilight Imperium (third edition)
Space Alert
Dungeon Command: Sting of Lolth
Hacienda
Battlestar Galactica
Ground Floor

BoardGameGeek News

To submit news, a designer diary, outrageous rumors, or other material, please contact BGG News editor W. Eric Martin via email – wericmartin AT gmail.com
Recommend
72 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up

Designer Diary: Phoenicia

Tom Lehmann
United States
Palo Alto
California
designer
mbmb
Phoenicia is a game of economic growth and advancement for two to five players. Each player guides the development of a village into one of the great Phoenician city-states: Tyre, Sidon, Byblos, Acco, and Arvad.

Each turn, players can initiate auctions for development cards, which give additional workers, storehouses, production, victory points, or new abilities. A player can also train and employ workers in the production technologies they have (initially, just hunting and farming, but mining and clothmaking are available with certain development cards). After all players have done this, they receive income, apply storage limits, and then turn up new development cards to start a new round.

Phoenicia's design was inspired by Francis Tresham's Civilization and Jim Hlavaty's Outpost. I helped Jim develop the "Outpost Expert Game" in the 1990s. Several years later, I began to wonder whether Outpost could be completely redesigned into a much quicker game with more development options. After getting Jim's approval (in return for my contributions to the Expert Game), I began to look for an appropriate setting.

As much as I love both science fiction and Outpost, I've never liked its corporate theme of colony managers competing to be top planetary manager. (Where are the office politics and backbiting that would inevitably be present in such a setting?)

One shortcoming of many civilization games is that they tend to concentrate on great military empires. What about cultures that were economically and technologically dominant, enduring for over a thousand years, despite never amassing great armies or huge tracts of land? What about the Phoenicians?

The Phoenicians were a Semite people who settled a narrow strip of coastline between the hills of Lebanon and the Mediterranean between 1500-1300 BCE. Master traders and builders, they adapted Minoan ship designs, perfecting the bireme and taking over the Egyptian grain trade, following the collapse of the Minoan civilization. In addition to giving the Greeks the phonetic alphabet, the Phoencians planted colonies and extended Iron Age technology throughout the Western Mediterranean, developed the first transparent glass, created a clothmaking industry (based on a red dye, from spiders, and their famous indigo dye, from a shellfish) and, perhaps, circumnavigated Africa.


Phoenician shipbuilding and navigation expertise were so well known that King Solomon negotiated with Hiram, Prince of Tyre, for Phoenician shipwrights, sailors, and merchants to develop the Red Sea trade (possibly with the Queen of Sheba, unnamed in the Bible but Makeda according to Ethiopian traditions).

Perhaps the greatest Phoenician engineering feat was to maintain silt-free harbors – which is still a challenge in modern times in Eastern Mediterranean ports, requiring frequent dredging – for many hundreds of years by constructing elaborate causeways and breakwaters so that tidal forces would constantly flush away accumulating silt.

Rich but not numerous, the Phoenicians never developed a great military nor united politically. To protect themselves, they both paid tribute at various times and built their cities on islands (such as Tyre) or on peninsulas behind huge city walls (such as Sidon or Byblos). There, supplied by their fleets, they could outwait most besieging forces. (Another stratagem was to offer to carry away besieging armies by sea to other destinations.) Tyre was conquered just once, by Nebuchadnezzar II in 573 BCE after a thirteen-year siege, before finally falling to Alexander the Great in 332 BCE. This ended the thousand year Phoenician dominance of the Eastern Mediterranean, though their greatest colony, Carthage, survived until 146 BCE, before falling to Rome.

This setting struck me as perfect for a game of economic competition and advancement, without political or military activity. With this in mind, I started reworking mechanisms.

A lot of time in Outpost is spent dealing and totaling the different production cards, rearranging them when purchasing (since no change is possible), and bidding "one more" than the previous bid. By having just one production deck, allowing change, and scaling costs from 1 to 30, hours of play were eliminated. Production cards average 5 and range from just 4-6, making it easy to estimate a player's current wealth. ("Hmm... 3 cards, 2 treasury, that's 17 on average, maximum of 20 if they are all 6s; I'll bid 19 to be (almost completely) safe.") With this time savings, I expanded the number of different development cards by 50%, adding many new options.

One concern in an economic growth game is catching an early leader. By adding a powerful late technology path (Shipbuilding) and an early victory point path (allowing small economies to secure lots of points while richer ones are still expanding production), I gave players ways to recover in the mid-game from an early mistake or bad luck.

I reduced kingmaking by drastically accelerating the endgame. Phoenicia lasts just 9-11 rounds, spread over four sets of development cards. However, players go through both the last two card sets in just three rounds. By the time a player is truly out of it, the game is usually in its final round and players are mostly just bidding everything they have.

I improved the value of storage by effectively allowing a player who buys a Granary to earn interest when saving. The shorter game length, since there are fewer rounds for growth to compound in, also makes saving to dominate the next round of bidding a much more effective tactic. The result is a very "tight" game. Players must manage their workers, production, technologies, wealth, storage, and victory points simultaneously.


The biggest design challenge was presentation. Originally, the game was implemented as just a set of cards. Not only was this too fiddly, but it was difficult for players to see each other's positions (which is important in a bidding game). The next attempt was to provide each player with a large mat. Now, everything could be seen, but the result was too intimidating and confusing for new players. The final approach was to provide a central board with a common track and discount area (making this information easy to see), and to give each player four tiles, representing their initial villages, which could then be flipped over or added to, as players gained new technologies.

As always, a game changes in response to publisher and playtester comments. David Goering challenged me to do this; Bernd Brunnhofer suggested strengthening the victory point path; Stefan Brück provided valuable insights into the three-player game; the late Keith Loveys came up with rotating the Overlord when tied; Jay Tummelson suggested a first game rule; and Markus Welbourne of JKLM Games, the publisher, advocated reducing the effect of multiple discounts and having an option to reduce luck on the first turn. Thank you. Enjoy!

Tom Lehmann

(Editor's note: This designer diary/game preview first appeared on BoardgameNews.com on May 22, 2007. —WEM)
Twitter Facebook
25 Comments
Subscribe sub options Sat Aug 6, 2011 6:26 am
Post Comment
Judy Krauss
United States
Pittsburgh
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
but I'm not the only one
badge
My hands are small, I know, but they're not yours, they are my own
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I just got this game recently. I've read over the rules but haven't had a chance to get it to the table, yet.

Thanks for these designer notes. Have you read a book about the Phoenicians, called "Sea Traders," which was released by Time Life Books?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Aug 6, 2011 7:58 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Al Johnson
United States
Arlington
Texas
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
The game has promise but unfortunately has the worst rule set of all time. I have never seen a game come close to this in poorly written rules. I'm still not sure I played it right after 3 plays. Tom really needs to rewrite the rules. The current ruleset has turned a lot of people off this game. This game appears on every geeklist that lists games with poorly written rules. Quite a shame because it has so much promise.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Aug 6, 2011 10:17 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
James Webb
Australia
Canowindra
NSW
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This is one of the best auction games I've ever played.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Aug 6, 2011 12:34 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Kenny VenOsdel
United States
Saint Paul
Minnesota
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Al Johnson wrote:
The game has promise but unfortunately has the worst rule set of all time. I have never seen a game come close to this in poorly written rules. I'm still not sure I played it right after 3 plays. Tom really needs to rewrite the rules. The current ruleset has turned a lot of people off this game. This game appears on every geeklist that lists games with poorly written rules. Quite a shame because it has so much promise.


Agreed. The rules are so poor that even after getting the better rewrite and playing a few times, I think I don't really know how to play based on Tom's article. Either that or I am just missing something in the game. In our experience the amount of points you can get from production economies was so big that whoever got the most production could just start buying out other people and coast. I saw an inherent lack of catch up mechanisms. Odd. It is on my try a few more times pile though.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Aug 6, 2011 2:35 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Björn Hansson
Sweden
Jakobsberg
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
+1 for horrible rules. You cannot play this game without guidance. But once you understand them it's a very nice game.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Sat Aug 6, 2011 4:55 pm
  • Posted Sat Aug 6, 2011 4:55 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Huzonfirst
United States
Manassas
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
San Antonio, OKC, Miami, and Boston..who will win out?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The rules are quite poor, but there are many resources on the Geek (including a comprehensive FAQ and a complete rules rewrite) that should allow anyone to be able to learn this. Obviously, that's not the ideal solution, but it's one worth pursuing for anyone wishing to play this marvelous game.

As for the dominance of production and the lack of a catch-up mechanism, the key if you fall behind is to get an adequate economy going and then go after the cards which give you discounts. There's some very valuable cards that appear late in the game and the players with significant discounts on these cards are the favorites to win them. I have seen some impressive come from behind victories, but it requires some knowledge of the cards. Don't give up on this game if it appears that a Clothmaking strategy is unbeatable--it's not. Keep playing, keep your eyes open, and try to figure out possible paths to victory. Even if you don't succeed, it will assist you greatly in future games.

Phoenicia has a learning curve, like so many of Tom's games, but it's a deep game of valuation that plays very quickly and doesn't have an ounce of fat on it. It's one of my favorites, and, distressed though I am about the subpar rules and components, I'm still very happy that a published version of this game is available to be played.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Aug 6, 2011 7:24 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Steve Duff
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm going to defend the rules. I got the game in trade a month or so ago, and sat down at the table, set it all up and read the rules to learn the game.

I had heard how brutal the rules were, so I kept waiting for the hard to understand part to arrive. It never did. The rules lay out the steps in each round, then precisely states how each step is done. Do what each step says, you play correctly.

The only rule problem is the "more than four coins" wording when exchanging 4 coins for a card in section 2c.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Aug 6, 2011 7:37 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Huzonfirst
United States
Manassas
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
San Antonio, OKC, Miami, and Boston..who will win out?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The rules are complete, Steve, and it's perfectly possible to learn the game from them. But they're organized in what is, to many, a confusing fashion. So much content is contained in the examples, instead of just being stated in black and white. Not only does this make you search for the precise procedures, it breaks up the flow of the writing and makes comprehension difficult. Hell, I'd played the game multiple times with Tom when it was a prototype and I still had trouble understanding things when I first read the ruleset.

It's easy to overstate how bad the rules are; they are nowhere near the worst I've seen. And I know a number of gamers like you who had no problem with them. But I still don't think they're anywhere up to the standard of clarity that we've become used to in game instructions. As you can see from the comments here, they are an issue with many people who've tried to learn the game. I don't think they're so bad that folks should avoid the game; if worst comes to worst, there are multiple resoures to assist with learning the design, as I pointed out. But I do wish they were better.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Aug 6, 2011 8:55 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Gil Hova
United States
Newark
New Jersey
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The weirdest part of the game is the decision to give victory points a coin icon, while giving income a trophy icon. Maybe it's thematically accurate, but it is more confusing than anything else. I found that things became easier to track if I used the coin on the track to represent income instead of VP.

I've only played this game a couple of times, and both times, there was a clear runaway leader. I'd play it again, though.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Aug 7, 2011 5:29 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Shannon K
United States
Las Vegas
Nevada
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yea that seems to be the case most of the time, especially if played with someone who has played it before.

I want to like the game more then I do but it seems that if you let a player get more then 1 Dyer the game is over early.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Aug 7, 2011 6:33 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Huzonfirst
United States
Manassas
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
San Antonio, OKC, Miami, and Boston..who will win out?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
fr33py wrote:
it seems that if you let a player get more then 1 Dyer the game is over early.

Yup, I'd agree with that. So I guess you need to make sure that doesn't happen, or at least ensure that the player pays through the nose for that second dyer!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Aug 7, 2011 6:58 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
J C Lawrence
United States
Campbell
California
designer
Avatar
Dyers are great if the Cloth House comes out after the Dyer player has enough money to bid for them again. If they come out inconveniently for the Dyer player (which is often the case), the Dyer player sinks like a stone.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Aug 7, 2011 9:10 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Tom Lehmann
United States
Palo Alto
California
designer
mbmb
After you get killed by Double Hunters, the Dyers won't feel so strong... ;-)

In general, two of any techs (Dyers, Hunters, Shipyards, City Centers, etc.) obtained cheaply can be very, very strong in Phoenicia.

The Dyers tend to be strongest in 5P games and weakest in 2P games (due to the changing numbers of Dye Houses), so their value in any particular game can be quite different from the previous one. Further, as players learn how to save for the phase II break with Granaries, the Dyers become far less important. How to properly use Granaries to gain both "interest" and to save tactically is probably the trickiest aspect of the game for new players to pick up. Second is understanding how and when to pursue the small economy/early VP path versus the big economy/big end game VPs paths.

I believe Phoenicia is actually one of the best balanced games I have ever designed, but it's very tight and intricately wound...

Unfortunately, the lead publisher, JLMK Games, botched the game's presentation in many ways. For example, I argued against their use of victory "coins" both on historical grounds (coinage in Western civilizations was invented by the Greeks at a later time) and because it would be confusing to players (my prototype used oblong sheets of gold for VPs which is both historically accurate as a Phoenician symbol of status display and less confusing). They weren't willing to change it. Many other graphic and rules glitches were caught by me at the proofing stage and the publisher promised to fix them and then failed to do so. Sigh.
20 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Aug 7, 2011 9:10 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Thomas Cowart
United States
Durham
North Carolina
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Now that they are no longer an ongoing concern, is there any chance of getting some sort of Phoenicia 2nd ed.?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Aug 7, 2011 2:20 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Lee Fisher
United States
Downingtown
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ggeorgemcfly wrote:
Now that they are no longer an ongoing concern, is there any chance of getting some sort of Phoenicia 2nd ed.?


I'd guess with Outpost finally coming out and also having Tom's variants, etc, that it would not be likely for awhile.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Aug 7, 2011 2:22 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Steve Zamborsky
United States
Lebanon
Ohio
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
lfisher wrote:
ggeorgemcfly wrote:
Now that they are no longer an ongoing concern, is there any chance of getting some sort of Phoenicia 2nd ed.?


I'd guess with Outpost finally coming out and also having Tom's variants, etc, that it would not be likely for awhile.


Additionally, with Rio Grande attempting to clear out the excess stock of this title through giveaways at Origins and Tanga deals, most likely there wouldn't be a second edition. It's a shame, as it's such a good game that turned people off for a number of reasons that had nothing to do with the design.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Aug 7, 2011 3:16 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Tucker Taylor
Canada
Vancouver
British Columbia
Please wait.
badge
A woman needs a man like a fish needs a saxophone.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
IngredientX wrote:
The weirdest part of the game is the decision to give victory points a coin icon, while giving income a trophy icon.


Dear Ghu, yes. That's just the most glaringly obvious piece of poor graphic design. Phoenicia gives the original RGG edition of Medici a run for its money as 'least playable graphic-design trainwreck of an otherwise good game.'

Really, Phoenicia is the only game I've been tempted to make my own edition of.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Aug 7, 2011 7:32 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Barteus Maximus
United States
Parsons
Kansas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Our group enjoys auction games, so Phoenicia is a welcome addition to our table. Lasts about the right length of time to make it interesting. We use the Nova Rules re-write and haven't had any problems.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Mon Aug 8, 2011 5:59 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Kevin Maroney
United States
Yonkers
New York
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I bought a bunch of Tanga copies and resold them mostly within my own gaming group. It's a game that a lot of people like that doesn't seem to get the props it should, probably due to the learning curve.

As to the rules: My understanding, from a comment Tom made elsewhere, is that the rules as originally written had a lot of structural formatting (block quoting, indentations, highlighting) that made them much clearer, but this all got dropped as the rules were turned into the rulebook. (Something similar happened with the rules to Middle Kingdom; it's much more obvious there.)

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Aug 9, 2011 4:11 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Kevin Maroney
United States
Yonkers
New York
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I've asked this before and never gotten an answer: Is Phoencia a redevelopment/retheming of the unpublished game known as "Industrial Age"? Or is Industrial Age still floating around?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Aug 9, 2011 4:14 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Huzonfirst
United States
Manassas
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
San Antonio, OKC, Miami, and Boston..who will win out?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
womzilla wrote:
I've asked this before and never gotten an answer: Is Phoencia a redevelopment/retheming of the unpublished game known as "Industrial Age"? Or is Industrial Age still floating around?

Obviously, Tom can answer this better than I, but since it's been a day and a half...

Phoenicia came first, as Tom's reimagining of the concepts found in Outpost. He submitted it to Hans im Gluck, who agreed to redesign it into a board game (Phoenicia is essentially a card game) called The Industrial Age. This was actually announced as an Essen release. However, there were obviously second thoughts somewhere along the line, because the game was eventually cancelled. Tom got back the rights to Phoenicia and after some further streamlining, the game was published by JKLM a few years later.

Tom mentioned to me once that some of the development ideas that HiG came up with for Industrial Age found their way into his Pizarro & Co., which HiG released a couple of years later.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:21 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Derek H
South Africa
Pretoria
Gauteng
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
womzilla wrote:
As to the rules: My understanding, from a comment Tom made elsewhere, is that the rules as originally written had a lot of structural formatting (block quoting, indentations, highlighting) that made them much clearer, but this all got dropped as the rules were turned into the rulebook.

The obvious question then is: why can't Tom make these available as a resource on BGG?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:17 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
J C Lawrence
United States
Campbell
California
designer
Avatar
Tom is a professional and respects his obligations to his publishers.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:22 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Tom Lehmann
United States
Palo Alto
California
designer
mbmb
clearclaw wrote:
Tom is a professional and respects his obligations to his publishers.

Normally, I will never criticize a publisher in public, but I'll make an exception for JKLM, since JKLM failed to pay me any royalties for more than 2 years after Phoenicia's publication. I finally had to threaten JKLM with a lawsuit to get anything from them at all (I got about half what I'm owed). JKLM both ruined the graphics and rules for what I think is one of my best games and behaved in completely unprofessional and unethical ways.

The reason I can't simply put up my original rules is that they won't do much good. They use the old graphics, not the published ones. I don't have access to JKLM's graphics to merge them. I offered to do this for JKLM after Phoenicia came out: to both improve the rules and to put up the historical guide that JKLM discarded, which included both an overall essay and a card-by-card reference with historical notes for each card. JKLM wasn't willing to send me the graphic files.
13 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:18 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Uisge Beatha
Scotland

http://www.thekanofoundation.com/
Avatar

Ever since I played JKLM's edition I've wanted to see this game republished with production values that match the quality of the game - adding rules which helped you learn the game rather than hindered would be a nice bonus!

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:31 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.