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The Unconventional Wargamer

I just started wargaming about 5 years ago, and not "classicaly" trained as most of you guys are but this hobby really got me into history. Yea and I got it bad. So as I play these games I typically dont play like an old school gamer and I screw up a lot, but sometimes it's pretty funny how my crazy ideas work. I roll the worst dice you have ever seen, but I can always blame it on my leaders :)
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Tanks Alot
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Recently I have been playing more euro games in order to appease the crowd and it's left this empty feeling inside of me. The best part of this hobby to me is the history and relating to understanding things around me. It's often difficult for the regular gamers to understand when I try and explain why I dont like settlers of catan. I also really enjoy the people aspect of gaming so it feels like a double edged sword of enjoying "gaming" and history, but both are a requirement as far as Im concerned.
Recently Ive been playing more Combat Commander. Excellent system, and lots of fun, I only wish a direct tie in with history could be felt for me. I can really get the sense the combat is happening but I dont really relate to the battle or the skirmish as well as something like Memoir 44. Yep. I said Memoir 44 One of the best bang for the buck, anyone can/will play historical games that has tons of scenarios and can play from 2 to 8 people. Almost everyone has seen Saving Private Ryan, or some WW2 movie that has a related scene that makes the game transportational.
It's really nice to see new players get into the hobby.
Another great game is Conflict of Heroes. But what seems to be missing for me is that direct tie into history. I am really hoping that the COH Normandy and Africa get published because these battles I know and understand a little better. When you are playing a game thats "zoomed" in on the details its nice to know how it ties into the overall campaign.


I am really excited about playing No Retreat 2 pretty soon. Loaned my brand new copy to my friend and it's killing me haha. Still trying to get Rommel in the Desert to the table...

Charlescab
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Subscribe sub options Mon May 16, 2011 4:56 pm
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Mike Szarka
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Generally speaking you will never get the same tie-in to history in a squad-level game like Combat Commander: Europe or Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! Russia 1941-1942. You can't see the anthill because you are looking at the ants. Tactical games have their joys but they don't speak to what was happening at a larger scale except to a minimal degree.

Memoir '44 gives you the sense of a major battle because it is actually an operational level game with a tactical combat ruleset. So it makes you think about the battle that was going on even if the actual game system itself is not remotely historical. (And despite its limitations I enjoy playing Memoir as a game I can teach a newbie in 5 minutes and play in an hour. Not many other wargames fill that niche).
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 5:17 pm
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Phil McDonald
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Memoir '44 in Overlord format with bespoke card decks and rules and painted miniatures is a wonder to behold and to play. It's as far from vanilla M44 as a lion is from a house cat

Tide of Iron is good too, as is Combat Commander.

But if yoiu really want to push the boat out, try Paths of Glory, it's the best game I've ever played and I've played it nearly thirty times despite it's length.
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  • Edited Mon May 16, 2011 5:30 pm
  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 5:30 pm
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Hunga Dunga
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I don't understand why you like M'44 but don't like SoC.

Other than the fact that SoC can be played with more than two people, what's the difference?
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 6:34 pm
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Tanks Alot
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Settlers of Catan, is not a historical board game. To elaborate more, I have a deep appreciation for history, that comes alive when I play a game.. even something as simple as memoir 44. As Mike said, I get a really geat feel for what was happening at the operational level with memoir 44. Its light enough to enjoy easily, but you also get a great feel for what the objective is. I enjoy games like Command and Colors Europe for the tactical feel, but that overall operational feel just doesnt hit home .. yet.
I have the same aversion to fantasy as I do to abstract. I just don't relate to them.
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  • Edited Mon May 16, 2011 7:37 pm
  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 6:40 pm
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Lucius Cornelius
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Vindolanda
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charlescab wrote:
Settlers of Catan, is not a historical board game.

Maybe it is, in another dimension.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 7:07 pm
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Joshua Gottesman
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I suppose me ever actually sending you VASSAL moves would help scratch your wargaming itch.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 7:34 pm
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Tanks Alot
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@Joshuaaaaa- Im toast in both games so its ok. I think I am pretty much done in both games. I wouldnt mind starting Jena or waterloo 20 though I really like the simplicity of those systems.
 
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  • Edited Mon May 16, 2011 7:56 pm
  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 7:38 pm
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Tom Stearns
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If given a preference I will almost always choose a war game or historically themed game over a straight Euro. The Euro's do have spot though in my gaming world because actually finding people to play the war games is much more difficult.

I really like CC. I haven't tried CoH or M44. I have ToI but have only played one game solo. I agree with the poster above who made the comment about tactical gamesmaking it difficult to see the whole picture. From a scaling standpoint, I much prefer Operational or Strategic level games.

Charles any chance you are going to the Heat of Battle Convention in New Orleans in August?

 
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 8:24 pm
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Tanks Alot
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I wish I was. Im in the east coast and typically go to Prezcon, Historicon, and Williamsburg Muster in Williamsburg Va. I just cant seem to find a way to make money to pay for my addiction yet, although I did recently come very close to opening a wargaming shop in my local town haha. But if I was in New Orleans, I would have a difficult time concentrating on wargaming with all the activities there. I love New Orleans! Ive always wanted to go to the WW2 museum thats there. With 2 active kids in high school my vagabond days travelling around the country are about 4 days away. I am stocking up on Victory Point games just for this purpose as I can pack over 40 of their games in a single suitcase
 
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 8:38 pm
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Alfred Wallace
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First of all, mad propers on your avatar. You are a man of taste and refinement, although I'd have gone with a Union card. But then, I'm not from South Carolina. (We seem to have a lot of favorite wargames in common in general.)

Second, does this carry over to other areas of recreation? Do you only read history books? Only visit battlefields rather than other museums? I ask out of curiosity; I know such people, and I can understand why they'd only play wargames.
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  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 10:13 pm
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Tanks Alot
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Actually born and raised near Fort Monroe Virginia, I lived up and down the virginia coast from Hampton to Richmond for approximately 30 years of my life, and always enjoyed visiting museums growing up. The area was full of them. Then at 12 years of age moved to rural WV where I never even heard of a wargame, moved back to Virginia at the age of 22.
As far as reading goes I have never been a good reader, which is one of the things I really like about wargaming is the story unfolding. It sort of forces you to go through the details and see how different events effected the historic periods. In the past few years though I have been reading the Sharpe's Rifles series which has amazing battle scenes and lots of historic info as you follow the story along.
My experience in wargaming started from a friend of mine who is a miniatures wargamer. I was somewhat overwhelmed at the rules and the variety of time periods/different tactics and I bought memoir 44. It had all the rules and everything I needed to play the game as opposed to miniatures which costs quite a bit.
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  • Edited Tue May 17, 2011 2:06 am
  • Posted Mon May 16, 2011 10:37 pm
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Darrell Hanning
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I am scratching my head over how someone can claim M44 gives them insight into the operational level, when the game itself cannot make up its mind just the hell scale it represents, between its varying scenarios, and its highly abstracted rules.

To me, CoH has a much better tie to history, as the different weapon systems are at least somewhat accurately represented, as opposed to M44.
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  • Edited Tue May 17, 2011 3:14 am
  • Posted Tue May 17, 2011 3:11 am
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Tanks Alot
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I think the biggest part is I am familiar with the scenario names and how they tie in to larger operations, and I agree memoir is abstracted, but with COH I play a scenario called the bunker or monsters but I really dont have any idea of what part of the war I am fighting in. As far as the units and the layout they are much more historical in play and setup, but I dont see my objective except in taking a hill or a town.
Tactically there is no comparison between the two games. COH is by far the more realistic system.
 
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  • Posted Tue May 17, 2011 4:59 am
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Mike Szarka
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DarrellKH wrote:
I am scratching my head over how someone can claim M44 gives them insight into the operational level, when the game itself cannot make up its mind just the hell scale it represents, between its varying scenarios, and its highly abstracted rules.

To me, CoH has a much better tie to history, as the different weapon systems are at least somewhat accurately represented, as opposed to M44.


I don't think anyone claimed that Mem '44 provides insight. It is however, on some level, evocative. You see the landing craft, the beaches, the cliffs, the little soldiers and tanks, and you think of Omaha Beach. The fact that everything that follows is not in any way a simulation of WW2 combat does not take that away.
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  • Posted Tue May 17, 2011 1:23 pm
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romain
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Some eurogames have a lot of historical flavour too. You take something like Maria for instance.
 
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  • Posted Fri May 27, 2011 4:11 pm
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Tanks Alot
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out to lunch wrote:
Some eurogames have a lot of historical flavour too. You take something like Maria for instance.


I agree. Some games have a good mix of the two. I would definitely play Maria, and Ive played Friedrich too. Some of the more recent wargames have a good mix of the 2 genres.. Twilight Struggle, Fighting Formations, Andean Abyss...
 
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  • Posted Fri May 27, 2011 4:41 pm
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The main difficulty I have in convincing my eurogamer friends to play wargames is in justifying the amount of rules and the length of play when compared to the perceived randomness of the game.

So far I have been most successful with Napoléon's Triumph (short rules, no randomness, deep strategy) and Eastfront (wooden blocks are more appealing than chits to eurogamers somehow), but I had to tweak Eastfront so as to reduce the number of die rolls and keep results closer to the average statistical results. I really like those Columbia block games and I feel Rommel in the Desert would be a natural follow-up to Eastfront. I have to make sure I can tweak it the same way though.
 
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  • Posted Fri May 27, 2011 5:04 pm
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Tanks Alot
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Have you tried Dominant Species? It has a nice wargaming feel, though its not historical at all it has a realistic appeal, also leaping lemmings is an excellent intro to wargame to tactics with a comical approach
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  • Edited Fri May 27, 2011 5:13 pm
  • Posted Fri May 27, 2011 5:13 pm
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romain
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charlescab wrote:
Have you tried Dominant Species?


I have. I bought it with my facebook coupon. But other than the hexes, it really feels like a eurogame to me. Nothing wrong with that though. I also play Indonesia (it has a beautiful map and tons of really tough decisions all the way through) and other "heavy" euros. They tend to require at least 3 or 4 players to really "shine" though. The beauty of wargames apart from the historical flavour is also that you get something deep and involved with only 2 players.






 
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  • Posted Fri May 27, 2011 5:26 pm
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Mike Szarka
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out to lunch wrote:
The main difficulty I have in convincing my eurogamer friends to play wargames is in justifying the amount of rules and the length of play when compared to the perceived randomness of the game.


I see this come up a lot in conversations on BGG and find this one of the most surprising aspects of the "collision" between the wargame and eurogamer worlds. Anyone who was weaned on wargames knows that the skill factor is paramount and the randomness just alters the game path and provides realistic uncertainty. I find this misperception about the role of luck in wargames baffling every time I hear it.
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  • Posted Fri May 27, 2011 7:22 pm
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romain
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mcszarka wrote:
out to lunch wrote:
The main difficulty I have in convincing my eurogamer friends to play wargames is in justifying the amount of rules and the length of play when compared to the perceived randomness of the game.


I see this come up a lot in conversations on BGG and find this one of the most surprising aspects of the "collision" between the wargame and eurogamer worlds. Anyone who was weaned on wargames knows that the skill factor is paramount and the randomness just alters the game path and provides realistic uncertainty. I find this misperception about the role of luck in wargames baffling every time I hear it.


I understand both sides of the argument. I tend to agree with you but only when the game allows you to readjust your thinking in case of a bad die roll (or card draw or whatever). Combat Commander does that I think because it is very fluid so I don't mind the randomness as much as I would in other games.

I remember this one game of Eastfront when the Germans were just bound to make a breakthrough and seize Moscow. I was playing the Soviets and only had a couple of measly infantry steps to defend the key hex that would make my whole frontline collapse (I was playing very poorly I have to say). My opponent had everything: SS panzers, armour, you name it. 15 dice to roll, with a blitz HQ, scored only one hit. Then the weather turns to mud, there's not enough time to rebuild his HQs and take advantage of the breakthrough he should have achieved.

I can understand my opponent's frustration. You spend 6 hours carefully planning everything and this is how it ends. The bad luck in this case doesn't create an interesting situation because you can't really respond to it by looking for a different approach.

That's why I decided to tweak the combat system to reduce the disparity in terms of results. Less dice to roll, more planning allowed, still a lot of unpredictability (throught the fog of war and statistic deviations created by the new system) so everyone's happy.
 
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  • Posted Fri May 27, 2011 7:48 pm
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Mike Szarka
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out to lunch wrote:


I remember this one game of Eastfront when the Germans were just bound to make a breakthrough and seize Moscow. I was playing the Soviets and only had a couple of measly infantry steps to defend the key hex that would make my whole frontline collapse (I was playing very poorly I have to say). My opponent had everything: SS panzers, armour, you name it. 15 dice to roll, with a blitz HQ, scored only one hit. Then the weather turns to mud, there's not enough time to rebuild his HQs and take advantage of the breakthrough he should have achieved.

I can understand my opponent's frustration. You spend 6 hours carefully planning everything and this is how it ends.


And yet, stuff like this really did happen, where outmatched troops overperformed through tenacity, preparation or luck, sometimes just long enough to reverse the strategic situation, e.g. 20th Maine at Gettysburg, Thermopylae, the Alamo, Midway, insert your favourite example here. A key to a good wargame strategy is not to have success depend on a single outcome, even if success is highly probable.
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  • Posted Fri May 27, 2011 8:09 pm
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romain
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Agreed but is it fun if you lose despite having applied the better strategy? Not that I really have to deal with that kind of frustration too often since I'm usually the worse player...

Also all the examples you mention, apart from Midway, are older conflicts, much smaller in scale than those massive tank battles between the Germans and the Soviets. I suppose the larger the scale and the more advanced the technology used, the more predictable the overall results must be.

I'm no expert in US military history but I was taught in school that the Japanese had badly underestimated US forces at Midway and that it was part of the reason they lost...
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  • Posted Fri May 27, 2011 8:36 pm
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Mike Szarka
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out to lunch wrote:
Agreed but is it fun if you lose despite having applied the better strategy? Not that I really have to deal with that kind of frustration too often since I'm usually the worse player...

Also all the examples you mention, apart from Midway, are older conflicts, much smaller in scale than those massive tank battles between the Germans and the Soviets. I suppose the larger the scale and the more advanced the technology used, the more predictable the overall results must be.

I'm no expert in US military history but I was taught in school that the Japanese had badly underestimated US forces at Midway and that it was part of the reason they lost...


Well I'm sure there are others here who can mention WW2 battles where one commander managed the equivalent of rolling snake eyes. Of course the reasons things happened can always be explained in hindsight, but a strategic-level commander would not have had control of a bonehead move by one of his subordinates, which is what the die roll simulates.
 
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  • Posted Fri May 27, 2011 9:31 pm
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Jack Tremble
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Broken Arrow
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Amen on the fantasy snore
I enjoy the history link with wargames also.
Enjoy your contributions to the hobby !
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  • Posted Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:58 pm
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Tanks Alot
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Thanks Jack. Ive been trying lately to do reviews on cam. Quite different than using vassal but Ive had some requests to ditch the vassal interface and Im just playing to see what the reaction will be. I wont be going into a lot of detail just superficial game overviews.
http://www.youtube.com/user/charlescab82
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  • Posted Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:46 am
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