Julias Caesar- Beauty in its simplicity

Michael Collarin

(MCOLL81)

United States
Charlotte
North Carolina

This is another one I want to try!
I'm still a little foggy about the fog of war aspect of blocks. Bad pun, I know blush

I like it with regard to troop movement across a large scale of area in periods where things like satallite images didn't exist. However, I imagine there was some still level of scouting and at the very least surely someone could tell the difference between cavalry and foot soldiers even if they couldn't tell the relative strength (aside from sheer numbers) of those armies. This also introduces an element of trust in the game... But if one is to trust that the block moving 2 spaces (or what have you) is in fact a cavalry unit, then why not just put a cavalry marker on the opposite side. One opposition to this would be the rotation of the block to indicating the block's strength could then be assertained. However, the rebutal would be to put that indicator on all four sides. If this were a decal applied, then it could be blank in the center and a horse (or other indicator) on the outside edges of the decal such that when it is rotated the horse at the top of the block is standing upright. In other words all of the horses would be standing with their feet facing the center.

Edited Thu May 19, 2011 4:30 pm
Posted Thu May 19, 2011 4:29 pm
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Jim O'Neill (Established 1949)

(oneilljgf)

Scotland
Motherwell
I aten't dead yet...

MCOLL81 wrote:

...This also introduces an element of trust in the game...

I play miniature wargames with about twenty other regulars who get together for a big weekender game about three times a year to play on tables that are usually 12' x 6' minimum.

If from one side of the table a guy rolls three dice and says, "three sixes" it is accepted as fact even though you can't see what he has rolled.

I don't think that I could play with people I didn't trust implicitly.

However, an answer to your cavalry problem would be to put a symetrical mark at the centre of the cavalry blocks and then strength would still be hidden.

Jim
Est. 1949

Edited Thu May 19, 2011 5:14 pm
Posted Thu May 19, 2011 5:13 pm
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(markgravitygood)

United States
Norwood
Massachusetts

Except that all units have the same movement capacity in Julius Caesar - 2 - normally. I know you were either a) not discussing this game in particular, or b) never played it.

Just sayin'...

Fog of War in JC amounts to not knowing the unit strengths you are facing until you enter combat against them. You may know there is a unit in Rome, but not it's strength, unless, of course, you have a fantastic memory and can remember the unit strengths from setup through the turns.

Posted Thu May 19, 2011 5:59 pm
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Michael Collarin

(MCOLL81)

United States
Charlotte
North Carolina

You are correct that I have not played JC and I haven't gotten to that section of the rules. It must have been another block game that I was reading up on lately which mentioned cavalry having a different movement capacity.

Regarding the trust component, well, the person I'd most likely play this game against is the OP. And who wouldn't trust a Cylon... whistle

Oh wait, I was the Cylon... Bad example.

But after just having played a quick game of Memoir '44 at lunch, the issue which I previously dubbed as trust added another obstacle - newbies. If you were playing a block game (obviously Memoir is not a block game) that has various movement capacities and you are teaching someone how to play or they are still inexperienced, it would help to to know that they were moving units properly - not because they'd be cheating but rather they just didn't know (or forgot). For example, my co-worker tried to move an infantry 3 hexes but I was able to tell him that only armor can move 3 hexes (under normal circumstances).

Posted Thu May 19, 2011 7:00 pm
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Jim O'Neill (Established 1949)

(oneilljgf)

Scotland
Motherwell
I aten't dead yet...

MCOLL81 wrote:

...the issue which I previously dubbed as trust added another obstacle - newbies.

Michael,

That's an excellent point that would take some very careful handling and diplomatic skills that are probably well beyond me.

Regards,

Jim
Est. 1949

Edited Thu May 19, 2011 9:34 pm
Posted Thu May 19, 2011 7:06 pm
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Tanks Alot

(charlescab)

United States
Fort Mill
South Carolina

www.facebook.com/HistoricalBoardGames

I would highly suggest playing any game before you change it, I hope not not to sound rude. But the basic setup on the map is known information so before the blocks are hidden you know what is where. I play many games where the details are abstracted and it works quite well. Getting the details on every unit down to the letter can get quite overwhelming.. next thing you know it becomes a week long effort to read and study the rules of the game.

avalry and certain types of units can only be placed in certain areas of the board. Such as elephants. If I see a unit being placed in certain areas I know for sure he is going for the heavy stuff

as I know I would. The hard part is keeping track of it all

There is a certain level of suspense in "trapping your opponent, and staying out of range in the 1 move 2 move system. The object of the game is simple, to take control of the cities and gain the victory points associated with those cities. I play a lot of wargames and I swear I could teach a 10 year old to play it, and because of the of the clarity in the mechanics. But I would also not call this a historical simulation either, although the value of the cities and geographical layout of the roads does give you an idea of obstacles that are in your path.

Edited Thu May 19, 2011 8:41 pm
Posted Thu May 19, 2011 8:38 pm
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Ronny S. Mo

(Kabuki)

Japan
Iwamizawa-shi
Hokkaido

MCOLL81 wrote:

This is another one I want to try!
I'm still a little foggy about the fog of war aspect of blocks. Bad pun, I know blush

I like it with regard to troop movement across a large scale of area in periods where things like satellite images didn't exist. However, I imagine there was some still level of scouting and at the very least surely someone could tell the difference between cavalry and foot soldiers even if they couldn't tell the relative strength (aside from sheer numbers) of those armies.

On a tactical scale yes they would know if they were facing the 9th legion and attached German auxiliary cavalry, but on a strategic level Pompey didn't, beyond guessing that if Caesar was going to do something stupid (like crossing the Adriatic in midwinter) he'd bring his most trusted troops.

Anyways, the fog of war is accurate model in the case of ancient games and block games:
1) It's a strategic level game in which case which units were where was unknown outside of what you had found out from direct contact.
2) Historically you don't know what you meet until you meet it on the road, or in the forest or mountains or wherever. You may know that Caesar usually has Gaullic cavalry along as scouts and skirmishers, but there is no real way to know if there is enough for a full formation to face your Numidians, especially say if not enough horses had made it across the Adriatic in midwinter.

It is hard to change your information perspective to that of the ancient world. Btw. the two points above apply to just about every conflict up to modern times: On the strategic level you have an idea of what the other side has, on a tactical level you may know what is supposed to to be in the area, but until you actually go over and take a look or there is some chatter across the lines during foraging or nighttime trading you don't know exactly who or what is on the other side.

MCOLL81 wrote:

This also introduces an element of trust in the game... But if one is to trust that the block moving 2 spaces (or what have you) is in fact a cavalry unit, then why not just put a cavalry marker on the opposite side. One opposition to this would be the rotation of the block to indicating the block's strength could then be assertained. However, the rebutal would be to put that indicator on all four sides. If this were a decal applied, then it could be blank in the center and a horse (or other indicator) on the outside edges of the decal such that when it is rotated the horse at the top of the block is standing upright. In other words all of the horses would be standing with their feet facing the center.

Yes, but you always have to trust your opponents in any game or endeavor where there is a 'magic circle' (to use gaming terminology). If you can't trust them then you can't play anything other than perfect information games, and with people who can't play honestly you can't play memory or candyland without having to make sure that all of their moves are above board.

Newbies are a different issue as discussed above, but if I was teaching my kids I'd start with open blocks and almost play a sort of 'what-if' co-op. On the other hand with an experienced game-player I'd just go for a traditional teaching game or maybe a couple of rounds of open play just to make sure the basic mechanics are down.

Posted Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:04 pm
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(markgravitygood)

United States
Norwood
Massachusetts

MCOLL81 wrote:

You are correct that I have not played JC and I haven't gotten to that section of the rules. It must have been another block game that I was reading up on lately which mentioned cavalry having a different movement capacity.

Regarding the trust component, well, the person I'd most likely play this game against is the OP. And who wouldn't trust a Cylon... whistle

Oh wait, I was the Cylon... Bad example.

But after just having played a quick game of Memoir '44 at lunch, the issue which I previously dubbed as trust added another obstacle - newbies. If you were playing a block game (obviously Memoir is not a block game) that has various movement capacities and you are teaching someone how to play or they are still inexperienced, it would help to to know that they were moving units properly - not because they'd be cheating but rather they just didn't know (or forgot). For example, my co-worker tried to move an infantry 3 hexes but I was able to tell him that only armor can move 3 hexes (under normal circumstances).

I understand this thread is somewhat dated, but JC does not suffer from this "hidden unit: are you moving it correctly?" flaw/cheat. All units move the same. It's just not an issue. This is a common component to most of the Columbia Block games. It's actually what makes "fog of war" games work.

Posted Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:09 am
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Michael Collarin

(MCOLL81)

United States
Charlotte
North Carolina

markgravitygood wrote:

MCOLL81 wrote:

You are correct that I have not played JC and I haven't gotten to that section of the rules. It must have been another block game that I was reading up on lately which mentioned cavalry having a different movement capacity.

Regarding the trust component, well, the person I'd most likely play this game against is the OP. And who wouldn't trust a Cylon... whistle

Oh wait, I was the Cylon... Bad example.

But after just having played a quick game of Memoir '44 at lunch, the issue which I previously dubbed as trust added another obstacle - newbies. If you were playing a block game (obviously Memoir is not a block game) that has various movement capacities and you are teaching someone how to play or they are still inexperienced, it would help to to know that they were moving units properly - not because they'd be cheating but rather they just didn't know (or forgot). For example, my co-worker tried to move an infantry 3 hexes but I was able to tell him that only armor can move 3 hexes (under normal circumstances).

I understand this thread is somewhat dated, but JC does not suffer from this "hidden unit: are you moving it correctly?" flaw/cheat. All units move the same. It's just not an issue. This is a common component to most of the Columbia Block games. It's actually what makes "fog of war" games work.

Hammer of the Scots and Liberty I now know have various unit movement and I think Texas Glory does too. I think at the time these were posted, it was Texas Glory that I was researching.