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Dragonslayers - A game in the making!

Dragonslayers is a game about treasure, gold and glory - and of course slaying dragons. I sent out copies of the game to a crafty and trusty lot of playtesters. In this here blog my playtesters and I will discuss the game, how it plays out, what works well and what less, what is obviously broken and how we could change the rules to make Dragonslayers an enjoyable experience for gamers old and young!
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Making the Deck Harder

Robert Seater
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I played around with the deck today to see if I could accomplish the "three decks" approach with just 1 deck. I also wanted to reduce the cash flow from defeating monsters, and tweak some other cards.

Rules:
Each monster has a level. You may choose to avoid monsters with level higher than the current year. You must fight monsters with level equal to the current year.

Whenever you draw a location, you may visit it. Then keep drawing cards until you hit a monster. All events & terrain keep accumulating until you hit a monster. They reset even if you choose to evade the monster.

Each terrain has 3 lines of text, for the 3 years. When exposed, use the row corresponding to the current year. I've currently given each terrain 3 names, but I think that's annoying and it should probably go back to 1 name for the entire card (with 3 varying effects). But the different names does add some theme.

Omit the Witch's Deck. Include all of Andreas's new heroes.

Players start with $50 and 1 hero, chosen from 3 randomly displayed heroes. I just did this solo, so this is orthogonal to the question of how to handle multi-play.

You win the game by defeating Grimlock or by defeating every monster but Grimlock. At the end of year 3, every surviving monster (including Grimlock) attacks you at once, and you must kill them all to win.

Adventure Deck: Spells
Blind: Prevent 1 monster attack before it is rolled
Transmute: sell 1 item, then buy 1 item (from blacksmith or alchemist)
Form Fate: View and rearrange the top 7 cards from the deck
Teleport: You may retreat from any battle after seeing an attack roll but before applying the damage from it.
Weaken: Give a monster -2 DEF for the entire battle
Shatter: Destroy 1 item or force a player to lose $100.
Strengthen: Add +3 to an attack roll before rolling.

Adventure Deck: Events
Curse: Until the next monster is revealed, discard all spells drawn and purge all terrains and events drawn. Purged cards are kept with used spells.
Treasure Find: Gain a level X treasure, where X is the current year.
Blood Star: All heroes and monsters have ATK +2.
Bad Omen: The next monster has -1 to its level.
Windfall: Double the reward of the next monster.
Highway Robbers: Randomly choose one of your items. Discard it or pay its cost.
Alms: The player with the most money pays 50xYear to the player with the least money. If there is a tie, the leader breaks the tie.
Fog: All heroes and monster have DEF +2.
Festival: If all players agree to pay 50, then heal all heroes.

Adventure Deck: Locations
2x Blacksmith: buy any amount of equipment (same prices as before)
2x Tavern: Each hero may pay 50 to heal completely. You may pay 300 to view 3 random heroes and add 1 to your band.
2x Alchemist: buy any number of potions. See new list given below.
1x Witch: either pick 1 purged card at random or pay 50 to choose any 1 purged card. Put that card on top of the adventure deck.
1x Traders: sell any number of items for their face value

Adventure Deck: Terrain (each group of 3 is one card)
1) Meadow: nil
2) Forest: nil
3) Jungle: nil

1) Valley: monsters ATK +1
2) Mountain: monsters ATK +2
3) Cliff: monsters ATK +3

1) Pasture: nil
2) Thicket: nil
3) Swamp: monsters +1 LP

1) Slums: heroes cannot us potions
2) Sewers: heroes cannot use potions or spells
3) Ruins: heroes cannot use potions or spells or innate skills

1) Road: Heroes +1 INT
2) Bridge: Heroes +2 INT
3) Tunnel: Heroes +4 INT

1) Hills: Monsters +1 INT
2) Mine: Monsters +2 INT
3) Cave: Monsters +4 INT

1) Coast: monster level -1, monster reward + treasure level I
2) Peninsula: monster level -1, monster reward + treasure level II
3) Island: monster level -1, monster reward + treasure level III

Alchemist Deck: new potions
100 --> potion of healing. Discard at any time to heal 1 wound.
200 --> potion of wind. Discard at any time to immediately let one hero attack an extra time.
50 --> potion of invisibility: Discard to reroll any 1 die.
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Subscribe sub options Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:10 am
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Robert Seater
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Adventure Deck Monsters
3 Headed Cock of Doom
level 1, reward = 50
3 LP, 3 INT, -3 ATK, 1 DEF

Disembodied Tentacle
level 1, reward = 100
1 LP, 2 INT, -0 ATK, 2 DEF

Rat King
level 1, reward = level I treasure
2 LP, 3 INT, -4 ATK, 3 DEF
INT+5 at slums/sewer/ruins

Iridescent Ooze
level 1, reward = 50 + level I treasure
2 LP, 2 INT, -3 ATK, 2 DEF
heroes cannot use armor or shields this battle

Esquilax
level 1, reward = 50
1 LP, 1 INT, -4 ATK, 6 DEF
INT+5 at Road/Bridge/Tunnel

Arach
level 1, reward = 50
1 LP, 8 INT, -3 ATK, 3 DEF

Muck Beast
level 2, reward = level II treasure
2 LP, 1 INT, -1 ATK, 3 DEF
INT+5 at Pasture/Thicket/Swamp

Lindwurm
level 2, reward = 100 + level I treasure
3 LP, 6 INT, -3 ATK, 7 DEF

Giant Boar
level 2, reward = 100
3 LP, 5 INT, -2 ATK, 3 DEF
INT+5 at meadow/forest/jungle

Wyrm
level 2, reward = 100
2 LP, 2 INT, -2 ATK, 6 DEF

Swarm
level 3, reward = 150
2 LP, 2 INT, -1 ATK, 5 DEF
no heroes can use weapons in this battle

Wyvern
level 3, reward = 150
2 LP, 4 INT, +1 ATK, 4 DEF
INT+5 at valley/mountain/cliff

Basilisk
level 3, reward = 200
1 LP, 3 INT, -2 ATK, 6 DEF
instantly kills any hero he wounds

Earth Dragon
level 3, reward = level III treasure
2 LP, 3 INT, -0 ATK, 8 DEF
INT+5 at hills/mine/cave

Bargost
level 4, reward = 300
3 LP, 6 INT, +d6 ATK, DEF 10
INT+5 at coast/peninsula/island
(rolls 2 attack dice instead of 1)

Ascarius
level 4, reward = 200
3 LP, 9 INT, +3 ATK, 7 DEF

Le Tarasque
level 4, reward = level I + II + III treasures
2 LP, 1 INT, +2 ATK, 9 DEF

Grimlock
level 4, reward = win the game
4 LP, 8 INT, +5 ATK, 9 DEF
number of separate attacks = current year
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  • Posted Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:25 am
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I used the same treasure decks (I, II, III) and the same blacksmith deck. The rest was adjusted as given above.

In the above listing, I did some fairly careful testing & cost formulas for the monster stats, but the rest of the deck is just guesswork. It certainly needs review & testing! It worked pretty well for my solo crawl, but that was a small data sample. I also didn't think that hard about names for any of the cards. This was mostly a test of my monster revisions.

I also got to wondering if we could merge events & terrains. Just having terrains would simplify things, and have almost the same effect. The main difference is that the events would not accumulate, which should solve the 'memory problem'. I'm not sold, but it's worth considering. Some of the events and terrains I used in the above deck were kind of similar, and seemed redundant.
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  • Edited Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:33 am
  • Posted Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:31 am
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I also think that the game might be ok if you have until year 4 to try to win, but I'm not sure. I squeaked through with a win in year 3 in my game. Grimlock gets meaner the longer you wait, so that might be enough pressure.

That's easy to test/balance, but I haven't done it yet.
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  • Posted Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:37 am
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I think your idea of Monster Levels is brilliant Rob!
Also I like the notion of Terrains with changing effects over the course of the game. Personally I'd like to have 3 individual names on the Terrain cards like Hills/Mine/Cave. It is just very flavorful as you mentioned as well.

So you playtested solo with these variants?
How long did a game take on average?

About the Alchemist's Lab:

What happened to Large Potion of Healing (200 Gold, Discard at any time to heal all LP/wounds of one Hero."

Also if you change potion of invisibilitiy's to "Discard to reroll 1 die" I would call it "Potion of Luck". But that is just cosmetics...
 
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  • Posted Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:48 am
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rseater wrote:
I used the same treasure decks (I, II, III) and the same blacksmith deck. The rest was adjusted as given above.

In the above listing, I did some fairly careful testing & cost formulas for the monster stats, but the rest of the deck is just guesswork. It certainly needs review & testing! It worked pretty well for my solo crawl, but that was a small data sample. I also didn't think that hard about names for any of the cards. This was mostly a test of my monster revisions.

I also got to wondering if we could merge events & terrains. Just having terrains would simplify things, and have almost the same effect. The main difference is that the events would not accumulate, which should solve the 'memory problem'. I'm not sold, but it's worth considering. Some of the events and terrains I used in the above deck were kind of similar, and seemed redundant.


How did you go about testing the Monster stats?

With the new Monster line-up, you don't seem to get as much treasure as before. Personlly I would prefer to see more treasures as rewards. But as you said you did some careful testing I, as always, trust in your good design sense

Personally I am in favor of having both Events and Terrain. The curse card will take care of some of the Events so they do not accumulate too much towards late game...

Hey another thing: In your most recent solo games, how did you handle combat?
 
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  • Posted Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:56 am
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jilocasin wrote:
How did you go about testing the Monster stats?

With the new Monster line-up, you don't seem to get as much treasure as before. Personlly I would prefer to see more treasures as rewards. But as you said you did some careful testing I, as always, trust in your good design sense

Personally I am in favor of having both Events and Terrain. The curse card will take care of some of the Events so they do not accumulate too much towards late game...

Hey another thing: In your most recent solo games, how did you handle combat?


I agree -- I would also like to see more treasure and a tad less gold. I did inject some more treasure via the event (now gives higher level treasure in later years) and the terrain (increases reward of monsters). I honestly doin't know if that produces more or less treasure than before, I agree wholeheartedly with your goal of having the same or more treasure than before!

I agree about events & terrains. Having both is thematic, and they have different impacts on the game. I suspect my current lists of both those cards needs some serious cleanup, though.

In the solo game, I did combat as in the printed rules.
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  • Posted Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:00 am
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jilocasin wrote:
So you playtested solo with these variants?
How long did a game take on average?

About the Alchemist's Lab:
What happened to Large Potion of Healing (200 Gold, Discard at any time to heal all LP/wounds of one Hero."

Also if you change potion of invisibilitiy's to "Discard to reroll 1 die" I would call it "Potion of Luck". But that is just cosmetics...


The game took about 45 minutes, I think. I got stalled a few times, when I decided to fiddle with card effects, so it's hard to count. I suspect it would take less on a re-play. I was aiming for 30 minutes.

I tried cutting the big potion for simplicity. I found that I never bought them for various reasons. Most notably, they cost more but almost never do more (since a hero with 2 wounds is often dead!). Also, if I need major healing, I'm more apt to pay for a Tavern than use up potions.

Yeah, the names all need help!
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  • Posted Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:03 am
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About the Large Potion of Healing: That makes perfect sense.

Do you think we need more Treasure cards in the Treasure Decks? Or is the current line-up ok?

And no worries, I can take care of all the names

So in combat you used the printed rules. How about the rest of the game: Did you implement some of the changes I proposed here:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/2932/ds-as-a-pure-coop...

BTW: I like the sound of "purged" cards. That is the "Removed from the Game Zone" I was proposing right?
 
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  • Edited Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:17 am
  • Posted Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:11 am
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jilocasin wrote:
How did you go about testing the Monster stats?


I laid out a set of heroes with various equipment, then rolled simulated combat for them (simultaneously). I tried to get heroes with the appropriate level of equipment to beat monsters at their level but take wounds doing so.

------

In parallel, I developed cost metric to help me get the monsters close (prior to the longer process of real-time testing). The metric isn't perfect, but it helped a lot to getting monsters into the right buckets, before I fine tuned the stats with dice rolling.

The cost metric formula is the sum of the following terms:

(a) average number of damage monster can withstand

6 * DEF * LP

(b) relevance of initiative; INT matters more in short battles, and less in longer battles, so it's scaled by the ratio of attack power to defense power

INT * (ATK+6) / (DEF * LP)

(c) attack power is highly relevant. I added 6 to get rid of negatives.

9*(ATK+6)

cost estimate = a + b + c + special powers

----

Then I laid the monsters out from easier to hardest. I put 1 above-average monster into each level, but otherwise made mosnters of level X worth 50*X gold. I picked some monsters based on thematic intuition to give treasure instead of gold. I added 3 new monsters to fill in some gaps and smooth out the curve.

I also fiddled with the stats to get some even distributions. E.g. I wanted a variety of attack and initiative values at each level, and I didn't want to repeat any one INT value too often. I also wanted the monsters within a level to feel very different from each other.

-----

Lastly, I stared at Grimlock until he started talking to me and gave me all the secret answers. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't lie to me, especially when he told me to give him more LP.
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  • Edited Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:17 am
  • Posted Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:15 am
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OK thanks for sharing this Rob. You know this is a great opportunity for me, as the humble amateur game designer that I am, to learn from pros like you! I really appreciate that!

Talking to cards like a gardener to his flowers eh? Nice approach. And Grimlock really deserves a fourth LP!
 
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  • Posted Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:23 am
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I uploaded a screenshot of the spreadsheet. Sometimes things like this make me think that I might be some sort of nerd. But then Grimlock starts telling me otherwise, and I definitely trust him.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/1017235/dragonslayers



Actually, Grimlock is the monster I'm least sure of. It's hard to judge just how hard he should be -- while every other monster should be beatable by a prepared hero, he should always be tough! Basilisk is also tricky, because it is potentially so swingy.
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  • Posted Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:40 am
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Oh we are all nerds in a good kind of way aren't we? Be proud of your inner nerd. embrace him! And Grimlock never lies - he is far too cruel for this! laugh

And if Grimlock is still too easy to beat I think it would be quite easy to fix that...
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  • Edited Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:47 am
  • Posted Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:44 am
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Small question:

What the heck is a "Disembodied Tentacle"? Some tentacle missing a body?

Also, why do you want to cut the Witch's Hut entirely? In my proposed rules changes I made the Witch's Hut an Event which lets you either draw a card from the Witch's Hut Pile at random or pay X gold to pick and choose any one Spell card.

What do you think about that?

Was your reason to cut the Witch's Hut Pile altogether to reduce the number of cards needed to play? If so that might be a good reason why...

I still like the idea of being given the chance to get more Spells...

Also I was thinking about changing Magnifex's ability to:

At Change of the Year, Magnifex may recover any 1 purged Spell.

Wonder how that would work out. Is it too broken? It sure seems flavorful and fitting for a wizard. Just dealing 2 extra damage each battle seems kinda dull to me...
 
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  • Posted Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:55 am
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Disembodied Tentacle used to be "Rasp" in my first cut (a monster from the old Warhammer RPG, waaaay back before it became a miniatures game). But that was boring. Whatever it is, it's some sort of monster that hits you hard but then dies easily. When in doubt, I add tentacles.

With the witch's hut, I was just trying to cut out a deck from the game, partly for simplicity and partly to reduce production cost. It felt too similar to just getting spells from the deck, so I wanted to try to accomplish a similar effect but using used spells instead of a special deck. Then I got carried away and wondered what would happen if it could recover any purged card. If you want a spell, you can put it on top and immediately draw it, but you can also re-inject a good terrain or helpful event. The extra deck is ok if it's needed, but I get hung up on how there's an entire deck for one effect in the deck which is pretty similar to other existing effects.

I really like recovering spells as a character power! That sounds like a very different kind of power that would make for a very different game. The more distinctive the powers can be the more replay value the game has. I also generally like the idea of spell casters having a "once per year" power. Other guys could do things like "Magic Missile: once per year, inflict 1 wound on a monster" or "alchemist: once per year, reduce the cost of a potion by 50" or "Time Reversal: once per year, escape a battle and heal all wound lost in that battle".
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  • Edited Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:15 am
  • Posted Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:12 am
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rseater wrote:


With the witch's hut, I was just trying to cut out a deck from the game, partly for simplicity and partly to reduce production cost. It felt too similar to just getting spells from the deck, so I wanted to try to accomplish a similar effect but using used spells instead of a special deck. Then I got carried away and wondered what would happen if it could recover any purged spell. If you want a spell, you can put it on top and immediately draw it, but you can also re-inject a good terrain or helpful event. The extra deck is ok if it's needed, but I get hung up on how there's an entire deck for one effect in the deck which is pretty similar to other existing effects.


That makes perfect sense to me! So you are already thinking about production cost? Interesting

Glad you like my new ability for Magnifex!

Do you think the hero cards are ok as they stand so far? Stats-wise I mean...
Of course we could always think of more heroes or re-invent old ones with new abilities... Thinking about how to help poor Halmond the Drunkard
 
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  • Posted Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:17 am
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Ahhhh, I must have missed that line:

Quote:
1x Witch: either pick 1 purged card at random or pay 50 to choose any 1 purged card. Put that card on top of the adventure deck.


That is a really neat solution for cutting a whole deck of cards (Witch's Hut).

Guess it is getting late over here and not being able to read properly any more is probably a sign to hit the hay pretty soon
 
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  • Posted Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:22 am
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jilocasin wrote:
[Do you think the hero cards are ok as they stand so far? Stats-wise I mean...

Of course we could always think of more heroes or re-invent old ones with new abilities... Thinking about how to help poor Halmond the Drunkard


I want to take a pass at heroes too, as well as the treasure decks and blacksmith cards, to see what tweaks might be needed. Now that I'm getting a sense of how to balance stuff, I want to think through them more carefully.
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  • Posted Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:55 am
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I want to have a sword and a bow in the Treasure Pile Lv II. Maybe we can come up with something... Also I would like to add two two-handed weapons to the Blacksmith items, a Bow and a Halberd as you suggested earlier.

Let us know how balancing goes...
 
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  • Edited Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:08 pm
  • Posted Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:03 pm
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I played another round with this deck. After 1 false start (I tried to take on a level 2 monster with a naked drunk), I managed to get all the way to year 3. I killed everyone but Grimlock, and then Grlimlock attacked me at the end of the year. He ate me for lunch, but I put up a fight. I felt it was deserved, since I'd had a slightly rough game, and felt like I was a little behind on the power curve. I face Glimlock with 4 characters, but 2 of them were pure meat shields (no equipment at all).

A few observations
(1) definitely end after 3 years
(2) the only way to win is to defeat Grimlock
(3) the scalesplitter has to be toned down -- it's absurd right now
(4) no need to limit the number of heroes -- it's currently a tough call between more people and more equipment
(5) Basilisk wasn't scary any more, so he should be beefed up a tad.
(6) the level 3 negative item in the treasure deck isn't much fun -- it just makes you randomly lose. It should be toned down. I like the risk of getting cursed items, but not quite so brutal.
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  • Posted Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:57 pm
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Michael
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What if you got a bonus for killing a monster above your level?
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  • Posted Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:03 am
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Andreas Propst
Austria
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Give Basilisk a higher INIT! This way he is more likely to get some damage through and would get a lot scarier. Also up the LP to 2 as I originally had it...

Michael: Are you thinking about a Gold bonus?
 
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  • Edited Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:15 am
  • Posted Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:06 am
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Robert Seater
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Ashland
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mylittlepwny wrote:
What if you got a bonus for killing a monster above your level?


Interesting idea. In some ways you do get a reward, since you get a big gold influx sooner, but you make a good point that it would encourage players to take (fun) risks if they were explicitly rewarded for attacking up. Sometimes it's good to "tell" players to do the things that's fun by explicitly encouraging it.
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  • Posted Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:04 am
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Andreas Propst
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Hey, once we settled for the new Blacksmith Items as well the Hero stats and Treasures I would like to create a new PnP file with the updated version of the game. Just post some tables if you are done with that Rob so I can get started with the cards! Thanks!
 
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  • Posted Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:13 am
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