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Qwirkle Wins 2011 Spiel des Jahres, 7 Wonders Wins Kennerspiel

W. Eric Martin
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For 2011 the biggest award in board gaming – the Spiel des Jahres, Germany's "Game of the Year" award – has been given to Susan McKinley Ross' Qwirkle, published in Germany by Schmidt Spiele.

Qwirkle's SdJ win, not to mention its nomination for the award in the first place, might come as a shock for some as the game was first published in 2006 by U.S. publisher MindWare. What's relevant for the SdJ, however, is the year of first publication in Germany, and that date is 2010.

How did the game come to be published in Germany in the first place? Well, funny story – my wife Linda and I brought my copy of Qwirkle to Berlin in October 2007 while visiting game designer and then-Boardgame News columnist Jeffrey Allers. I had raved about the game many times on BGN, even naming it my game of the year in April 2007 with eight months left on the calendar. Jeff had asked about buying the game from me, but he played tour guide in Berlin, so I gave him my copy as I could easily buy another in the U.S.

Before I did so, however, Linda and I taught the game to designer and publisher Andrea Meyer and Schmidt Spiele editor (and No Thanks! designer) Thorsten Gimmler while playing games for the evening in Spielwiese Berlin, a boardgame café. Linda and I rolled the newcomers – as Qwirkle is trickier than it seems at first glance – then Linda played again with Andrea, Thorsten and someone else and once again came away victorious. Thorsten asked for a contact at MindWare, and that contact eventually led to Qwirkle appearing on German game shelves and (soon to be) bearing a bright red popple.

After years of conversations via email and at NY Toy Fair, I consider Susan a friend, and I'm tickled to see her creation honored this way. Congrats!

In addition to naming the Spiel des Jahres, the SdJ jury awarded the inaugural Kennerspiel des Jahres – or "Connoisseur's Game of the Year", an award meant to highlight a game aimed at more experienced gamers – and to practically no one's surprise, Antoine Bauza's 7 Wonders took home the prize. (Strangely, just as Reiner Knizia missed the SdJ award ceremony when Keltis won in 2008, Bauza missed being on hand to receive the Kennerspiel as he had apparently missed a flight and was in South Korea.)

Published by Repos Production and distributed by Asmodee, 7 Wonders started making waves in mid-2010 while being shown at game conventions in Europe and the U.S. and the first printing sold out long before the game officially debtued at Spiel 2010 in October. Congrats to Antoine Bauza and the Belgo-Mexicans in charge of Repos!
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Subscribe sub options Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:28 am
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Guido Gloor
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A pity, I was really hoping for Forbidden Island to get the award, it'd have deserved it - was a hit with the not-as-much-gamers-as-me I introduced it to.

Ah well. I'm sure Qwirkle deserves the title.
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  • Edited Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:32 am
  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:31 am
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Bartjan S
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QWIRKLE??? surprise
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:39 am
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Hilko Drude
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So what about the Kinderspiel des Jahres? Is there a separate ceremony for that?
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:46 am
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W. Eric Martin
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HilkMAN wrote:
So what about the Kinderspiel des Jahres? Is there a separate ceremony for that?


Yes, on July 25, 2011 in Hamburg.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:53 am
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Peer Sylvester
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HilkMAN wrote:
So what about the Kinderspiel des Jahres? Is there a separate ceremony for that?


Yes, on the 25 of july.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:55 am
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Rob Duarte
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Wow. I didn't like Qwirkle at all. Then again, I just don't find myself getting into themeless abstracts. Oh well, I guess I can now say I have the 2011 SDJ winning game for trade! For anyone that's interested I'll entertain offers.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:35 am
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Scott Alden
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Congratulations to all the winners! I am very happy for them.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:35 am
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Freddie Foulds
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Congrats to the winners. Nice to see Quirkle get some recognition - a nice quick game, but has an interesting strategy held within it. Nice components too!

For me, Forbidden Island really didn't do it - I found it a bit too easy. I've played all difficulty levels and have only lost once, on my first game. Give me Pandemic any day - a much greater sense of satisfaction when you finally manage to beat it

Also, no surprises with 7 Wonders, but it is a great game!
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:52 am
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Jeffrey Allers
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Congrats to the winners! And thanks, Eric, for that 4-year-early "preview" copy of Qwirkle
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  • Edited Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:14 pm
  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:14 pm
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Nick A
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Really?

I just don't get Qwirkle. It seems like every move is automatic. 95% of the time the best move it to score the maximum amount of points now by making a funny turn on an existing row. You can rarely, wisely set yourself up for a quirkle, because there is almost always a better chance that one of your opponents will make quirkle before you (every player has an equal chance of drawing the correct pieces, plus your opponents have secret hands). Planning ahead just seems out of the question in the game.

I may be totally missing something here with this game (did I mention that I'm not that smart?). Why do you like Qwirkle? Why does it deserve recognition of any kind?
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:14 pm
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David Reed
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Congratulations to the winners - both awards are well-deserved.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:41 pm
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Mark Rivera
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Never played Qwirkle as it doesn't appeal to me but well done anyway! For theme reasons I would have thought that Forbidden Island would have a more broader appeal especially for families. The ICV2 stats have Forbidden Island in the top 10 sellers for Q1 which says a lot.

Well done to 7 Wonders although I'm not a fan.

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  • Edited Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:52 pm
  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:44 pm
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My condolences to thr losing games, some of you were really good and I eint forget about you!
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  • Edited Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:09 pm
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Is this an attempt by SdJ to tout games they perceive will be bestsellers? I have to say it feels like they're trying to embrace a game that will get more "mainstream" sales and get that SdJ logo on a game you might see in WalMart, Target, and other common retailers. As a bonus, because it was an '06 game, they already know it's selling well and can jump on the bandwagon thanks to the "first publication in Germany" technicality.

Or maybe they really, really like Qwirkle?

I have to say, with all the great games that came out in the last year, this makes me wonder for the first time just what the SdJ criteria are, who gets to vote, and why I care about the award in the first place. There's nothing wrong with Qwirkle (it's sort of fun as a filler game) but not my choice for best game of the year, for sure.

Unless of course Kennerspiel des Jahres is the new award for the hard core gamers like me and I need to start ignoring SdJ, which may be the message sent by this award. Spiel des Jahres is for nongamers now? That seems a bit counter-intuitive.
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  • Edited Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:48 pm
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David desJardins
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It sounds like they need to introduce the Kennerkennerspiel des Jahres – or "Connoisseur's Connoisseur's Game of the Year" - so they can give an award sooner or later to some game that's not trivial.

Giving the "advsnced" award to 7 Wonders is like giving the "Connoisseur's Movie of the Year" to Dumb and Dumber.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:44 pm
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DaviddesJ wrote:
It sounds like they need to introduce the Kennerkennerspiel des Jahres – or "Connoisseur's Connoisseur's Game of the Year" - so they can give an award sooner or later to some game that's not trivial.

Giving the "advsnced" award to 7 Wonders is like giving the "Connoisseur's Movie of the Year" to Dumb and Dumber.


I have to say it is sad for this community that public quotes like this are displayed.

Congratulations to two fantastic games. May they help expand the world of gaming and bring more gamers into our hobby.

Long live the Spiel de Jahres!!
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:51 pm
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Actually, David voiced my sentiments EXACTLY.

I am glad to be part of a community where individuals are free to express their opinions.

SdJ has become irrelevant to me as their choices now seem inversely related to my preferences.

Two poor choices in my opinion.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:59 pm
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Curt Collins
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Funguy wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
It sounds like they need to introduce the Kennerkennerspiel des Jahres – or "Connoisseur's Connoisseur's Game of the Year" - so they can give an award sooner or later to some game that's not trivial.

Giving the "advsnced" award to 7 Wonders is like giving the "Connoisseur's Movie of the Year" to Dumb and Dumber.


I have to say it is sad for this community that public quotes like this are displayed.

Congratulations to two fantastic games. May they help expand the world of gaming and bring more gamers into our hobby.

Long live the Spiel de Jahres!!


Why is that sad? It's a valid opinion. I'm sure there are a number of people that would agree.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:03 pm
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David desJardins
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Funguy wrote:
I have to say it is sad for this community that public quotes like this are displayed.


What have you got against Dumb and Dumber? 79% favorable audience rating, is pretty good.

7 Wonders seems like a perfectly fine game. But it seems pretty odd to create an award for the "connoisseur's game", and then give it to games that are more shallow than games like Dominion or Thurn and Taxis, which won the "basic" award in the past.

Actually, I think they would have been better off with 7 Wonders as Spiel des Jahres, and Qwirkle as Kennerspiel des Jahres. I think the latter appeals more to "connoisseurs", and has more to it. And make 7 Wonders the basic, introductory, light game.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:06 pm
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"For 2011 the biggest award in board gaming – the Spiel des Jahres, Germany's "Game of the Year" award – has been given to Susan McKinley Ross' Qwirkle, published in Germany by Schmidt Spiele."

Ha, ha, ha, ha! Good one! Oh....wait...you weren't joking...

7 Wonders for the more advanced award?? Nice game, but almost too light for the SdJ.

Jury, you've outdone yourselves. I can just picture them sitting down to a game of euchre and scratching their heads and saying "this is WAY too complicated".

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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:06 pm
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4Corners wrote:
"For 2011 the biggest award in board gaming – the Spiel des Jahres, Germany's "Game of the Year" award – has been given to Susan McKinley Ross' Qwirkle, published in Germany by Schmidt Spiele."

Ha, ha, ha, ha! Good one! Oh....wait...you weren't joking...

7 Wonders for the more advanced award?? Nice game, but almost too light for the SdJ.

Jury, you've outdone yourselves. I can just picture them sitting down to a game of euchre and scratching their heads and saying "this is WAY too complicated".



lol!
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:18 pm
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rico mcflico
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Blij wrote:
QWIRKLE??? surprise


QWIRKLE!!!

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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:18 pm
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Erin Sparks
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I remember when they gave SdJ to Tikal. I have to say, SdJ has been shaky for a few years, but I think now - for me - it has pretty much lost credibility (or maybe relevance). It's not the end of the world, but a bit sad.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:24 pm
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Qwirkle is an strange selection. I know SdJ is more family oriented, and even then out of all the games I introduced to my non-hobbyist family last year, qwirkle seemed to be the least enjoyed. I think I got comments like "I'd rather play Ingenious or Ta Yu" and "Where's the game in this game". Must have been a weak year for family games.
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  • Edited Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:37 pm
  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:31 pm
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Frank Griese


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The good news, there will be EXPANSIONS published for Qwirkle now... surpriselaugh
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:34 pm
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Funguy wrote:
I have to say it is sad for this community that public quotes like this are displayed.


What have you got against Dumb and Dumber? 79% favorable audience rating, is pretty good.

7 Wonders seems like a perfectly fine game. But it seems pretty odd to create an award for the "connoisseur's game", and then give it to games that are more shallow than games like Dominion or Thurn and Taxis, which won the "basic" award in the past.

Actually, I think they would have been better off with 7 Wonders as Spiel des Jahres, and Qwirkle as Kennerspiel des Jahres. I think the latter appeals more to "connoisseurs", and has more to it. And make 7 Wonders the basic, introductory, light game.



The problem is that this same conversation is rolled out every year. If you just look at the SdJ awards from 2001, these winners fall right in line with what the awards are designed for -- German Family Gamers. There is often a disconnect here on BGG with what people "think" should win and what actually does win. We have to remember that the jury is selected from German game critics that are in direct touch with what the German gaming scene entails. And I think they have done a damn good job at it. Just look at the growth in the gaming industry. Not just in Germany but all over the world. I think that the SdJ has a lot to helping get people interested in gaming. The largest growth segment is not people that love ultra-meaty games with such intense strategy to make you head hurt, but people that want to sit down with friends and family for a 45-60 minute round of "fun". Yes, fun! While I agree that Qwirkle and 7 Wonders are not exemplars of ultra-meaty, no holds barred strategy, brain melting games, they do represent what the awards are set out to do, introduce and extend German family gaming. And if you think that the SdJ is irrelevant, then don't take their recommendations. But what they have succeeded in doing is bring more people into the industry. What does that mean for you? More big and small publishers trying to capitalize on that market. More games getting funded. More great games coming into the market. Just look at the resurgence of small, independent American game companies. You can't tell me that has not been part and parcel of getting people involved with games -- no matter if it was Settlers of Catan, Carcassonne, Ticket to Ride, or Dominion. Five years from now some new designer or emerging company could say that they first were introduced to our hobby with games like Qwirkle or 7 Wonders. I hear stories of people introducing Qwirkle to friends and the whole lot go out and buy it that same evening. That has to say something about the game. We might all want to sit in the ivory tower and look down at the plebes with our erudite conceptions of games, but these games just click with lots of different people. Everyone has that first experience, that first taste that gets them looking for more.


The reason why it is sad, it why can't we as a community just celebrate the winners. If the award had gone to let's say Forbidden Island and Lancaster we would be hearing the same arguments for yet other factions of pro-abstract and pro-card drafting people. Come on, the first woman (yes American woman) just won the award. Two great games just won the award. 7 Wonders has been the hottest game regardless of the fact if you like it or not. It just clicks with people.

Break open the champagne!!
Open the gates to more gamers!!


Edit: I have to stand corrected to the above comments. While Susan is the first woman to win the award as sole designer, there have been two other woman who have one as contributing designers: Suzanne Goldberg for Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective in 1985 and Dorothy Garrels for Scotland Yard in 1983. Still, congratulations to Susan for a fantastic job!
  • Edited Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:29 pm
  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:42 pm
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Doug Richardson
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Yay!! for Qwirkle and 7 Wonders!!

Hooray! for Susan and Antoine!!

Yay!! for games, and for playing games with gamers and non-gamers!

Congrats to all of us for having a great hobby to enjoy!

(Jeez, sure is weird being the cheerleader. But I'm sure that deep down, you all are quite excited for the winners).

Enjoy!
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:43 pm
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drazkor wrote:
Why do you like Qwirkle?


It's light, kids as young as 4 or 5 can play easily, it works with adults who might not play many games, it is language-independent, the pieces are high-quality, the rules are dead simple, once the play area gets a little larger there are more placement decisions to be made, and the shape of the play area changes each time you play, which gives each game a slightly different feel (note that I did not say "each game plays totally differently!").

I'm sure I could think of a few more, though I'd be scraping the bottom of the barrel; I like Qwirkle, and the reasons I already mentioned are plenty for me. And frankly, they're plenty for the Spiel de Jahres, as well, which is intended to honor family games. That, to me, has meant that you should easily be able to picture a family with two kids (ages: 6 and 8) sitting down and enjoying themselves.

J
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:48 pm
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David desJardins
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Funguy wrote:
The problem is that this same conversation is rolled out every year.


It can't be rolled out every year, because this is the very first year for the Kennerspiel.

It's fair to ask, if you are creating a special award for "connoisseur" games, are you paying any attention to what the connoisseurs like? And the answer is clearly no. Why shouldn't the connoisseurs be disappointed by that?

Quote:
The reason why it is sad, it why can't we as a community just celebrate the winners.


I'm not a celebratory kind of guy. If you're going to have a community, you have to accept that a community is made up of all different sorts of people. Excluding me isn't going to make your community stronger, any more than excluding the light gamers would.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:49 pm
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DaviddesJ wrote:

It's fair to ask, if you are creating a special award for "connoisseur" games, are you paying any attention to what the connoisseurs like? And the answer is clearly no. Why shouldn't the connoisseurs be disappointed by that?


Perhaps you should read this interview with Bernhard Lohlein. I think what you see as connoisseur and what the head of the jury sees it as might perhaps be different.

http://opinionatedgamers.com/2011/05/20/kennerspiel-des-jahr...

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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:17 pm
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I guess it's time to re-post something I wrote a few weeks ago
(see http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/67773?commentid=213498...):

JohnnyDollar wrote:

The Seven Wonders nomination, combined with the Forbidden Island nomination for SdJ, evaporates my previous enthusiasm for this new award.
It's as if the KdJ is the new SdJ, and the SdJ is now SdJ-lite. Which all of a sudden is nowhere near as interesting.

It is actually exactly like you said. However, this trend has a rather serious and sad background.

The ability and the willingness to read and understand texts which are longer than a single page has decreased from year to year in Germany (I'm speaking here as a friend, husband, brother and son of four teachers). By "softening" the main award the jury SdJ simply takes this development into account and at the same time, the new "advanced" award is created in the hope that this will address an even larger target audience.

Many gamer geeks probably won't believe it, but Dominion already had a borderline compexity, which the jury tried to mitigate by publishing a series of rule explanation videos. This is very similar to the video game industry where written manuals have been more or less completely replaced by in-game tutorials and programmed instructions. Selecting board games with the rules complexity of Torres or El Grande as SdJ has become risky because it may very well happen that potential new gamers reject these games because they find them "too complicated to learn".

I myself as a hardcore gamer don't care too much about all this as long as the SdJ brings people to our hobby. A new gamer who enjoys a simple game is better than no new gamer at all.


PS: This discussion resembles the movie "Groundhog Day". It's the same year by year.

PPS: Maybe some geeks here understand German. There is an excellent video published by the jury SdJ which precisely explains the approach and motivation of the KdJ. See here: http://sdj-download.kiratec.org/kennerspiel/kennerspiel_neu....
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  • Edited Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:19 pm
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ErikPeter Walker
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Hm, maybe Bananegramme will win next year.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:44 pm
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gruescher wrote:

It is actually exactly like you said. However, this trend has a rather serious and sad background.

The ability and the willingness to read and understand texts which are longer than a single page has decreased from year to year in Germany (I'm speaking here as a friend, husband, brother and son of four teachers). By "softening" the main award the jury SdJ simply takes this development into account and at the same time, the new "advanced" award is created in the hope that this will address an even larger target audience.



Thanks for your comments. It is interesting that you say this. I find that more and more of my students fail to engage in reading and would much prefer to see a demonstration either live or via a screen to learn. Perhaps this is the saddest part of the current story.

But I also think another problem is our own personal gratification as gamers. If you started gaming in the late 1990s or early 2000s, one or more of the SdJ awarded games was more then likely one of the first games you played. If you fell into the hobby, the accolades of this game were more than likely validated by you interest in the hobby. Fast forward 10-15 years and now you see the same award being given to games that you more than likely scoff at or think are too "light" to even be considered worthy games to play. Your initial validation of the award thus is tarnished. While I think the debate over the "weight" of a game is one that has been explored in other places, you have to see that your tastes have changed. If anything, I think the SdJ is a perfect capture of the introductory German gaming scene as it is today. 15 years ago that scence might have been Settlers of Catan and El Grande. Today with the tremendous influx of new games and companies that scene is wildly different. Others have already commented that they don't find the SdJ relevant for them any more. That is absolutely fine. The award is not designed to appeal to absolutely every gamer in existence. Since your time with Tikal and El Grande, more than likely you have sought out games that build upon these concepts. But for people just starting off, this award is completely relevant. I know people have down played 7 Wonders as a filler. Yes it is a filler if you have been playing RftG, MtG, or any other resource management, engine-building, tech tree game. But if you plop your average person who has never gamed before in front of 7 Wonders they will be confused especially for the first game. Will this experience lead them back to more games? I think the SdJ is looking for games that will keep them coming back for more. While perhaps this shift between the Kennerspiel and Spiel de Jahres has broader implications for the up and coming gaming public, I still don't see why we can't just say congratulations and move on. If you truly don't like the game, write a review, post a thread in that game's forum, but really, we should just clink our glasses to yet another great year of games being produced. We truly are in a Renaissance of gaming. Maybe the jury does not have the express desire to have the award label in mega stores like Walmart, but perhaps by being there, more and more gamers will awake to the goodness of gaming.
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  • Edited Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:02 pm
  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:50 pm
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David desJardins
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Funguy wrote:
Fast forward 10-15 years and now you see the same award being given to games that you more than likely scoff at or think are too "light" to even be considered worthy games to play.


No, you are completely factually wrong, in two different ways. First, no one has scoffed at 7 Wonders; I think it is a fine game. And two, it is not the same award, it is receiving a new award which is supposed to be targeted especially at enthusiasts.

Quote:
I still don't see why we can't just say congratulations and move on.


I seriously don't see why we should have a discussion forum where we can't discuss what we think. What harm is done by people saying what they think? Seriously?
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:59 pm
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Funguy wrote:
Fast forward 10-15 years and now you see the same award being given to games that you more than likely scoff at or think are too "light" to even be considered worthy games to play.


No, you are completely factually wrong, in two different ways. First, no one has scoffed at 7 Wonders; I think it is a fine game. And two, it is not the same award, it is receiving a new award which is supposed to be targeted especially at enthusiasts.

Quote:
I still don't see why we can't just say congratulations and move on.


I seriously don't see why we should have a discussion forum where we can't discuss what we think. What harm is done by people saying what they think? Seriously?


Like I said earlier, please read the comments of the spokesman of the SdJ jury. What you claim as enthusiast is not necessarily what the jury is defining it as:


http://opinionatedgamers.com/2011/05/20/kennerspiel-des-jahr...


Here is one small snipet:

Spielbox: Who is the new award geared towards?

Bernhard Löhlein: The new main prize should help guide those who have been playing games for a longer time and have experience with learning new games. That doesn’t mean the absolute experts, but rather those who don’t feel that the Spiel des Jahres is enough any more. We’ve whetted their appetite with our award choices in years past and they want more.


To me that does not sound like someone who is a "gamer" but someone who has liked SdJ games in the past and would like something perhaps a bit more complex. This does not mean Die Macher complex but something that is easier to learn with the knowledge of having played some of the SdJ games already.
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  • Edited Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:10 pm
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Funguy wrote:
Like I said earlier, please read the comments of the spokesman of the SdJ jury.


I read it, and it reinforced my opinion entirely. They can do whatever they want, for their own profit, but they shouldn't claim to be serving "enthusiasts" or "connoisseurs". And you seem to be throwing out strawmen left and right; there is a world of difference between 7 Wonders and Die Macher. 7 Wonders has more rules than Qwirkle, but no depth to it. That makes it less suitable as an introduction to deeper games, not more.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:15 pm
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DaviddesJ wrote:

I seriously don't see why we should have a discussion forum where we can't discuss what we think. What harm is done by people saying what they think? Seriously?


Perhaps you are not reading what I wrote. If you truly don't like a game on it's merits for whatever reason, write a review, post a thread, get a discussion started in that game's forum. If you don't think that the SdJ is relevant anymore, start a forum. How is that not allowing you to express your opinions?

Bottom line: Qwirkle won the Spiel de Jahres. 7 Wonders won the first Kennerspiel.

CONGRATULATIONS TO ALL THE DESIGNERS, ARTISTS, AND PRODUCTION STAFF

Enjoy your wins! and the trophies........
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:17 pm
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Gerald Rüscher
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Funguy wrote:
But really, we should just clink our glasses to yet another great year of games being produced. We truly are in a Renaissance of gaming.


This is so true.

And by the way: Looking at the sales numbers of board games in Germany over the last 30 years I think that the authors, publishers and the jury SdJ did a pretty good job, especially if you consider the avalanche of video games which hit the market at the same time. I'm pretty sure that the gaming market would be dead if the publishers and SdJ would have been run by some of the folks from this thread. laugh
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  • Edited Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:21 pm
  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:18 pm
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David desJardins
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Funguy wrote:
If you don't think that the SdJ is relevant anymore, start a forum.


Why is that a better way to discuss it than in these comments?
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:21 pm
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Qwirkle is a fine lighter game, and very entertaining with the right crowd. It's basically Scrabble with shapes and colors instead of letters and words. My only complaint is that it's a bit of a grind since every round involves re-evaluating the scoring potential for the best placement of each of your pieces.

I agree that the optimal move is a fairly obvious decision IF you see it. As the board grows, some of the placement combos can be tricky to spot. So the real skill to the game involves pattern recognition. The danger is that the game slows down throughout play as everyone takes longer and longer to evaluate the board during their turn. Still a fun game I'll break out on occasion. I'm glad I own it, and it certainly has a permanent place in my collection.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:22 pm
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cbs42 wrote:
I agree that the optimal move is a fairly obvious decision IF you see it.


I think a lot of people are seriously misunderstanding how to play Qwirkle, and consequently underestimating the game. A key to the game is the 6-point bonus for completing Qwirkles, this means that taking the "highest-scoring move" that just opens up a much bigger score for an opponent is not necessarily a good idea. Much like playing Scrabble and opening up triple word scores for your opponent.
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  • Edited Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:26 pm
  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:26 pm
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Funguy wrote:
If you don't think that the SdJ is relevant anymore, start a forum.


Why is that a better way to discuss it than in these comments?


Could you kindly point me to a game reviews, forum thread, or any content that you have uploaded to any of the forums or geeklists? Perhaps you could synthesize your opinions into a well crafted review that will help others in their evaluations of games.

After awhile, the Peanut Gallery gets quite old.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:45 pm
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Funguy wrote:


After awhile, the Peanut Gallery gets quite old.


Welcome to BGG!
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:47 pm
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I remember that Aldie was very excited about Qwirkle when it first came out, which encouraged me to seek a copy.

I was rooting for Forbidden Island, but a game coming to the designer in her sleep is pretty cool for a winner!

Edit: I believe that Susan related that story on one of Doug and Shelly's roundtable podcasts....
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  • Edited Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:55 pm
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Congrats to the winners! I've played Qwirkle once or twice, and it's a pretty good game. 7 Wonders is my favorite game by far right now, so it's great to see it get the nod.

Played a good game last night, 5 players, all B sides. Got a good score going for big Science, but lost to a player who had the wonder that let her copy a neighbor's guild (2 points per neighbor's grey card), scoring 12 points off it!
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:54 pm
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peacmyer wrote:
I remember that Aldie was very excited about Qwirkle when it first came out, which encouraged me to seek a copy.

I was rooting for Forbidden Island, but a game coming to the designer in her sleep is pretty cool for a winner!

Edit: I believe that Susan related that story on one of Doug and Shelly's roundtable podcasts....


I heard that on the podcast as well. Pretty cool if you think about it. Why can't my dreams give me any games?
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:00 pm
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Out of the three games I really liked all of them, but I did think that Asara was quite a lot better than the other two.
Qurkle did seem like the least deserving of the three even though I like that game a lot, but as others have said, game play is fairly automatic. For me, as good as forbidden island is, it is a re tread of Pandemic and that lowers it's value for me.
As I said, all three are really good and fine additions to anyones collection, but Asara really is the better game that I will be playing for longer than the other two.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:03 pm
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Funguy wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
Funguy wrote:
If you don't think that the SdJ is relevant anymore, start a forum.


Why is that a better way to discuss it than in these comments?


Could you kindly point me to a game reviews, forum thread, or any content that you have uploaded to any of the forums or geeklists? Perhaps you could synthesize your opinions into a well crafted review that will help others in their evaluations of games.

After awhile, the Peanut Gallery gets quite old.


Why is your opinion more valid than his? Why are you even continuing this discussion? You've said congrats several times but seem to want to beat David into being satisfied with what you are satisfied with. I can tell you that trying to suppress discussion only encourages it.

In this case, I agree 100% with David (which is something I only say about once a decade 7 Wonders is not an enthusiast's game. And in fact by calling it such, it now appears that this 'enthusiast's award' is nothing but a way to weasel out of giving the 'real' award to a game that was at least as deserving as Quirkle.

Oh well, I know that Greg Schloesser and the IGA will do a much better job in awarding games that are truly enthusiasts' games. I look forward to the International Gamers Awards this year.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:04 pm
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I think a lot of people are seriously misunderstanding how to play Qwirkle,


To which I would add, I think a lot of people are misunderstanding the steep learning curve of 7 Wonders. I'm not saying it's a hard or deep game. But I am saying that it's difficult to teach to newbies. Eric teaches games all the time and has said this himself. I've seen this game taught multiple times and people are always confused by the iconography. Any game that relies heavily on new icons is going to inherently cause confusion to new players.

So regardless of depth, this is a game that goes one small step above a "family game." And that appears to be what the SDJ folks have in mind.

Quote:
I read it, and it reinforced my opinion entirely. They can do whatever they want, for their own profit, but they shouldn't claim to be serving "enthusiasts" or "connoisseurs".


All sorts of words here up for subjective interpretation. What is an enthusiast? Very hard to say. BGG members don't get to define the word, despite the many who try to do so every single day here.

The word "serving" is wide open to interpretation. As another commented, the SDJ is serving this community by bringing in new gamers. Someone sees 7 Wonders in a Target, sees the SDJ logo, feels proud they're going to learn an "advanced" game and then wants to check out more games. Whereas . . . let's say it was Troyes and they're so overwhelmed they think "advanced" games aren't for them at all.

Hey, I admit I'm new to this whole scene, but it seems to me that these awards aren't about giving pats on the back to the best games for geeks. They're about promoting the activity to the wider world. The two goals are going to be almost always mutually exclusive. Having an air of arrogance toward the SDJ - if expressed to non-gamers - only harms the hobby and pushes people away from wanting to learn and grow.

No one wants to hang out with and learn from people who are condescending. This is a far greater, and unfortunately far more common, crime against gaming than anything done by the SDJ folks.
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  • Edited Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:17 pm
  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:16 pm
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travvller wrote:
BGG members don't get to define the word, despite the many who try to do so every single day here.


Who says it's only BGG members that complain about the SdJ's decisions? I've heard complaints across many board gaming websites, forums, and newsgroups. Don't go off and think you can pigeonhole BGG as some sort of isolated microcosm here.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:21 pm
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linael wrote:
The good news, there will be EXPANSIONS published for Qwirkle now... surpriselaugh


and what would you call Qwirkle Cubes? or Qwirkle the dice game.

Congrats to Susan McKinley Ross, for Qwirkle of the most played (as opposed to best) games in our house.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:21 pm
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jschlickbernd wrote:
it now appears that this 'enthusiast's award' is nothing but a way to weasel out of giving the 'real' award to a game that was at least as deserving as Quirkle.

Please, read the interview with Bernhard Löhlein where he tries to explain the idea behind the KdJ.
You can find the link above in at least two replies but here it is once more just to be on the safe side cool :

http://opinionatedgamers.com/2011/05/20/kennerspiel-des-jahr
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Well, its not as bad as Back to the Future winning card game of the year (I'm looking at you Origins).
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:23 pm
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The real problem to me is that they gave Dominion the award. 7 Wonders is an easier game to both play and learn than Dominion. By giving Dominion the award and then turning around and giving 7 Wonders the enthusiasts award, they send a very strange message.

And enthusiasts does have a definition. (Webster's link at http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/enthusiast). Now there is certainly a chance that the German interpretation of the word 'enthusiast' is different. I don't know and perhaps some of the German people on the board can explain.

Quote:
it seems to me that these awards aren't about giving pats on the back to the best games for geeks. They're about promoting the activity to the wider world.


See I fundamentally disagree with this. We ARE the 'wider world'. We are the market they should be mindful of. We're not some bunch of aliens stuck off in a corner somewhere. I am saddened really that we would be described as people who don't count in the board gaming world.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:29 pm
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DaviddesJ wrote:
...7 Wonders has more rules than Qwirkle, but no depth to it. That makes it less suitable as an introduction to deeper games, not more.


I mostly agree with your assessments of 7 Wonders and Qwirkle, but disagree with your reversing their places. I feel 7 Wonders has too much going on for new or casual gamers to grasp in their first few plays. It took me a couple plays to figure out how to play competitively. There is a lot of information to track for non-Kenner players, but too little to chew on for Uber-Kenners. I think that makes it a pretty good introduction to deeper games, if for no other reason than as an introduction to more advanced game ideas like complex scoring systems and heavy information tracking. Once they learn 7 Wonders and suss out all it has to offer, they'll be primed for a more complex undertaking.

Qwirkle is a perfect choice for SdJ because of it's depth of play. It's a game that can be learned in less than a minute but supports both family-friendly and cut-throat play styles. It's a great game to introduce to newer players and can unlock achievements for them as they discover more strategic plays. I've played it with kids as young as 6 and adults in their 60s. I wouldn't even bother trying to teach 7 Wonders to either end of that spectrum.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:30 pm
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Funguy wrote:
The reason why it is sad, it why can't we as a community just celebrate the winners.


Because, whether we like it or not, the SdJ matters in a non-trivial way. Designer's careers are launched or not by a win. Companies are made; Days of Wonder was matured overnight by their win for Ticket to Ride. What wins the SdJ shapes, in some way, what the market for boardgames look like because of the financial rewards. So we all do have a stake in what wins.

Obviously, I don't know what was going on inside the jury's heads when they chose Qwirkle, and if maybe Forbidden Island got victimized by a squeeze where the Kennerspiel moved up a little bit in sophistication from the previous SdJ so the "existing" SdJ got pushed closer to a "family with very young kid's game" category. Certainly, this is at least a plausible argument for Qwirkle, if you want to play with kids whose reading skills aren't great yet. 7 Wonders isn't as sophisticated as some recent winners of the main prize (Dominion), so this is at least possible. But honestly, I'm not sure I can believe that much meta-gaming going into the thought process.

Past winners like Tikal, Torres, Dominion, and even El Grade have been a bit anomalous and I was surprised the jury would pick something that complicated even back then (the Dominion win took me completely by surprise, given the award's history). Still, a choice between Qwirkle and Forbidden Island seemed like a no-brainer given the award's past history of highly successful winners like Settlers, Ticket to Ride, or Carcassonne. Apparently not. It would be interesting to know what the factors were that led the jury to that choice.
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  • Edited Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:33 pm
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Brett Myers
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I'd like to point out if you visit bgg more than once a week or so, the SdJ awards are not targeted at your demographic. Not even the Kennerspiel. Probably not even more than once every few months.
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  • Edited Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:34 pm
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Patrick C.
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MWChapel wrote:
travvller wrote:
BGG members don't get to define the word, despite the many who try to do so every single day here.


Who says it's only BGG members that complain about the SdJ's decisions? I've heard complaints across many board gaming websites, forums, and newsgroups. Don't go off and think you can pigeonhole BGG as some sort of isolated microcosm here.


I wasn't. I was commenting about the members of unknown quantity who exhibit this puritanical trait that anything less than Caylus is unworthy of their attention. I'm sure this is a small minority, but they are a vocal minority and speak rather loudly here. I've also encountered them in person.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:34 pm
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jschlickbernd wrote:
7 Wonders is not an enthusiast's game. And in fact by calling it such, it now appears that this 'enthusiast's award' is nothing but a way to weasel out of giving the 'real' award to a game that was at least as deserving as Quirkle.

Oh well, I know that Greg Schloesser and the IGA will do a much better job in awarding games that are truly enthusiasts' games. I look forward to the International Gamers Awards this year.


The problem with awards is we see them as validation of what we deem as good. If what we don't like wins, then we somehow see fault in the process or the nominations.

The Kennerspiel is a new award. As I have linked earlier, while it means 'enthusiast' it is perhaps not what you and I see as enthusiast. In the last year, many of the games that have peeked my interest and I have played are not ones on either SdJ list or recommended list. The head of the jury has stated that the award is directed towards someone that has played SdJ games and has a somewhat ok sense of game mechanics and language but it not an "expert". He clearly states that. The award is designed to peek their interest in other new games that would appeal to them.

I agree that the IGA also does a great job, but they also validate games that I would say are "expert" games. I know that this is very nuanced and we want to think of ourselves as gaming enthusiasts and connoisseurs,(which we are) but in really we are ultra gaming geeks. Try pulling out Age of Industry or Le Havre (both IGA award winners and fantastic games to boot) on someone who has never gamed before and their eyes will glaze over and probably be turned off to gaming. The SdJ and Kennerspiel in most cases don't speak to all of us as the "ultimate" gaming experience of the year. In most cases, we have moved on. While there are games that some of us like and some of us don't, we have to move beyond the award validating what we do in the hobby. It is designed for a completely different audience. Just being here on BGG sets most of us apart from "introductory" (read SdJ) and "intermediate" (read Kennerspiel) gamers.

This reminds me of a story when I was in boarding school. Being a food enthusiast from an early age, I was with my roommate in a local cheese shop. We had picked up some really nice oozy Brie, Manchego, and a baguette. We we then arguing about what olives to choose. I was trying to convince my roommate that we should pick Spanish olives and he was leaning towards Italian. In walks a man, picks up a can of California olives from the shelf and throws it in our basket and says "Made in the USA." I recognized the man from television but could not pinpoint from where. A few weeks later I saw the commercial with that man, who turned out to be Jay Leno. (This was more than a decade before he was on the Tonight Show). But I think he had it right. Sometimes familiar tastes are better to go with rather than something a bit more "flavorful".

While many here on BGG prefer the more "flavorful" that might be too much if you are just starting off.
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  • Edited Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:42 pm
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Travis Bridges
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Yeah, I have to agree...


...the committee should have consulted with DaviddesJ first. How dare they make a decision without asking him, of all people, what he thought about it. Don't they know how much he posts on this website? When I think of connoisseur, he immediately comes to mind.

Actually, connoisseur only means that the decisionmakers (by proxy likely) have a depth of knowledge in a field, not that the game is deep or complex. My depth of knowledge of games would offer up 7 Wonders and Troyes as nominees for this year's award, but would lean towards 7 Wonders due to the overwhelming acceptance of the game in the board game community, the ease of play, and the game length. YMMV.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:43 pm
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Patrick C.
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See I fundamentally disagree with this. We ARE the 'wider world'. We are the market they should be mindful of. We're not some bunch of aliens stuck off in a corner somewhere. I am saddened really that we would be described as people who don't count in the board gaming world.


This makes zero sense to me. We are the converted. We already play games. Most of us already know what we like and don't like. And if we're confused most of us know someone who can teach us a game, shows us a new game, etc. etc. Or we have this site.

Calling us the wider world - "their intended market" - is like telling Apple Computer that they should focus all their marketing money on people who already own Macs.

I'm shocked that the SDJ has a relevance to anyone here other than pride or attachment to certain games. As in, "my team" won, etc.

Whenever I get into these debates I have to laugh at how much this reminds me of when I did political activism.

Rule number one in advancing your cause: Know thyself. Know where you stand in contrast to everyone else around you in your community, in your country, in the world. We are not the "wider world." We are already converted. If this were politics it's like the left or right fringe demanding their candidate, who's trying to win the entire election, pander to their every demand which the candidate knows will mean the election will be lost.

The SDJ would be giving a disservice to the hobby by constantly pandering to us. Unless, of course, one's goal is to keep this an exclusive thing and we want to keep all the riff-raff out of the club.shake
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:44 pm
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From: http://www.spiel-des-jahres.com/cms/front_content.php?idcat=...

Is „Spiel des Jahres" meant to provide an award for the „best" game of the year?

No - for two reasons: For one, apart from external features the quality of games is not subject to objectivity; the same applies for other cultural products like books or films. Judging a game to be "the best" remains subjective. The jury has to look at the quality with regard to the target group - which means we are talking about a very heterogeneous group where hobby gamers and games specialists form only a very small part. So what the latter might deem to be an excellent game could easily overstrain the average consumer, keep him from playing and thus do damage to the idea of playing games.
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  • Edited Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:51 pm
  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:50 pm
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DORGON
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travvller wrote:

The SDJ would be giving a disservice to the hobby by constantly pandering to us. Unless, of course, one's goal is to keep this an exclusive thing and we want to keep all the riff-raff out of the club.shake


They have to pander to someone, otherwise they wouldn't make any money.

There are a lot of "family" gamers on BGG. Probably more so than self identified "hard core" gamers. And if they say Forbidden Island(Ranked 223) is a better "family" game than Qwirkle(Ranked 404), why are they not allowed to infer that the SdJ committee are just not making good selections? It may be a small sample, but it's a sample. What's the sample size of the SdJ committee, a dozen?

The SdJ are in it to sell games, and remain relevant. The only way they can do both, is by being knowledgeable enough to make GOOD decisions. And yes, we are allowed to question those decisions. That's why we have a public forum.



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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:53 pm
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Alright, I will jump in and say it is not the lack of depth that bothers me (I like plenty of "light" games), but that I just don't find either game very enjoyable to play.

I know 7 Wonders is the rage, but it bores me. Too much complexity for some pretty simple decisions based on the cards I happen to see. Of course, I cannot stand Dominion either.

Qwirkle is alright but similar to the above poster, I was left with the feeling that I would rather play Ingenious or some other abstract.

Light games are fine. For example, I am pretty fond of Hey, That's My Fish. I like Byzanz and Sobek very well for card games and would always choose those over 7 Wonders. All of these are elegant in their simplicity relative to length.

I realize this is re-hashed every year, but after Keltis (re-tread of Lost Cities) I just threw up my hands. But then came Dixit which is a game I can actually recommend to my sister-in-law.

I would have chosen Fresco for the Kennerspiel des Jahres: easier to teach and has expansion modules to tailor to the difficulty level desired. And for me (I realize I am in the minority), more fun to play because the decisions are just more interesting.

My own preferences from 2010 right now are Navegader, Troyes, and Luna. However, I realize that is not what these awards are about.

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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:57 pm
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From this year's results I'm sure we misunderstood their reason for creating a "connoisseur's game" category. It wasn't so the SdJ winner could get more complex - it's so that the original SdJ could become even simpler, while the connoisseur's game is what we would have originally considered the SdJ contender.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:58 pm
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gratulation to the jury for giving the price to a non-barrier-free game. all the color-blind people on the world will second this.
bad enough that game designers don't consider color-blinds when doing the artwork and key mechanics for their games, now the jury of SdJ supports this developement. today is a bad day for the colorblind-gamers =(
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:01 pm
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FWIW, I have done a follow up interview with Herr Loehlein where he talks a bit more about the Kennerspiel (as well as more on the SdJ process itself)

http://opinionatedgamers.com/2011/06/23/dale-yu-2011-intervi...

Dale
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:23 pm
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yudp wrote:
FWIW, I have done a follow up interview with Herr Loehlein where he talks a bit more about the Kennerspiel (as well as more on the SdJ process itself)

http://opinionatedgamers.com/2011/06/23/dale-yu-2011-intervi...

Dale



Quote:
The feedback is overwhelmingly positive. Among the many players who like to write on the Internet, of course, the reaction was mixed. But the percentage of positive feedback was pleasantly high. Particularly well received is the decision by the publisher and authors which tell us quite honestly their views. I am particularly happy: My own game groups, in which more casual players are here, the introduction of the Kennerspiel have welcomed. For them, this mean more clarity.


Oh, well now I understand the disconnect. Kennerspiel actually translates to "Casual Gamers". Well now I agree with 7 Wonders winning the SdJ "Casual Gamer" award. I think my babelfish was a little off on translation.
 
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:30 pm
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I can see what some of the dissent is concerning 7 Wonders and the Kennerspiel. I think it's a great pick for casual gamers that want something more complex.

On the flip side, if I'm new to games, and I see that 7 Wonders is the "Enthusiast's" game, I might misinterpret this and think that this is the best game of the year that hardcore gamers play. In a way, the best of the best, which it isn't. I think that the SdJ doesn't cover the whole spectrum of games. We gamers know this, but maybe some people fear that the hobby is being misrepresented by an award that doesn't acknowledge heavier games, in turn misleading new gamers.

I think this could all be rectified if every game came with an ad for BGG.com whistle The SdJ could draw casual gamers into the hobby, then they can check out BGG to find deeper game experiences.

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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:46 pm
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Bipf wrote:


On the flip side, if I'm new to games, and I see that 7 Wonders is the "Enthusiast's" game, I might misinterpret this and think that this is the best game of the year that hardcore gamers play.


I agree with your confusion and would like to submit a correction to the award so that next time it won't have any confusion. SO SdJ I give you...



See how it has a beer in it's hands? Now THAT says "causal" game.
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  • Edited Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:51 pm
  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:50 pm
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I was always a little surprised that "Kennerspiel" was translated as "connoisseur" or "expert". It's true that's what a dictionary will tell you, and I'm certainly not fluent in German or familiar with its everyday usage, although I did study it for several years in college. But the base "kennen" is a common word that means "know" or "be acquainted or familiar with", a much "weaker" meaning than the english "expert", and without having really looked into it I had thought that "Kennerspiel" had more of meaning of being a game for people familiar with or knowledgeable about games, which is a lot different from an expert, connoisseur, or cognoscente, the translation Google gives you for "Kenner". That would make more sense given the history and aims of the SdJ, and that the DSP is already a long-standing, well-respected award that plays to the niche of hobbyist gamers.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:10 pm
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One of the other things that threw me about the Qwirkle pick is that the SdJ has never had much time for pure abstract games - they've always gone for themed games. You have to go back 30 years to find another winner that was a pure abstract. I'm not sure what that means, it's just a surprising break from a long tradition. There have been a lot of good abstract that they could have picked along the way (especially Einfach Genial/Ingeneous or some of the GIPF games), so it's a bit of a curveball for those of us trying to figure out what the SdJ jury likes.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:21 pm
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jschlickbernd wrote:
The real problem to me is that they gave Dominion the award. 7 Wonders is an easier game to both play and learn than Dominion.


Wow. Really? My wife picked up and loved Dominion immediately. Trying to teach her 7 wonders nearly reduced her to tears. A boatload of icons + hidden hands = *not* easy to teach to inexperienced gamers.

I agree that even Dominion was probably a little too much for who the award is pitched to (a German family of 4 with pre-teens seems to be the target), but 7 wonders would have been much much worse.

Qwirkle seems to go too far the other direction. Its attractively easy to learn and play, but there just seem to be no decisions of note. Compare to say, Blokus, which is abstract, similarly simple to learn/teach, but has far mor meaningful decisions.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:35 pm
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Danny Mack
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Funguy wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
Funguy wrote:
If you don't think that the SdJ is relevant anymore, start a forum.


Why is that a better way to discuss it than in these comments?


Could you kindly point me to a game reviews, forum thread, or any content that you have uploaded to any of the forums or geeklists? Perhaps you could synthesize your opinions into a well crafted review that will help others in their evaluations of games.

After awhile, the Peanut Gallery gets quite old.

Okay, that did it.
You can't be dismissive of people on here. Who do you think you are? Despite the fact that you are not the writer of the article, you clearly think you own this thread and/or have been put in charge of who gets to say what.

It was galling me for the past 3 or 4 of your comments, but this put me over the edge. I'm not saying (or thinking) anything bad about either of the games that won awards. It's just your way of telling people what to think and what they should be saying, and where they are allowed to post it that is unbearable for me, regardless of whether or not I agree with your rainbows & sunshine view of things.

I can't believe your handle is "fun guy." Could you point me to a thread where you evidence that character trait, because in this thread, I'm afraid it's mostly condescension that's coming through, and I for one have had quite enough.
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jschlickbernd wrote:
7 Wonders is an easier game to both play and learn than Dominion.


While I think 7 Wonders game is overall easier to play, as you have considerably fewer decisions to make, I have to disagree that it's easier to teach.

When I was volunteering at the Rio Grande room at GenCon last year, I'd refined my introductory Dominion speech down to where I could get most players up and running in their own game with 6-8 minutes, giving them the tools to understand pretty much all the cards (in base set + Intrigue, at least.)

It consistently takes me at least twice that amount of time to get players up and running in 7 Wonders, and even then they're frequently having to refer to the cheat sheets for the icons. (The Trading Post-type cards frequently trip people up.)

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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:47 pm
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MWChapel wrote:
I think my babelfish was a little off on translation.

No it's right on.
German is spoken with most of the action at the end of the sentences. Whereas in English we say things generally in "subject-verb-complement" structures.
If you can read the babelfish translations with Yoda's voice in your head, you should do alright.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:52 pm
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I'm not so much disappointed by the awards--it was some years ago that I stopped following the SdJ because it obviously wasn't directed at me--as I am disappointed by what I see as a general trend toward lighter games everywhere, including on BGG. My disappointment is my own, and results from feeling gradually excluded--I understand that alienating lifetime gamers like me for casual gamers may be a smart business & hobby-building decision.

To be honest, I'm more stunned that 7 wonders is rated so highly on BGG than I am that it won a so called 'connoisseur' award. Drafting without a game, wow. Qwerkle I don't even have words for...I'm working hard to move on to the next paragraph without insulting or belittling these two popular, admittedly innovative, and therefore deserving games.

Did it! Of course you'll disagree with me. That's fine. I'm sure they're great games for other gamers, I'm just referring to my own preferences.

My own opinion is that the post 2000-whatever 'cult of the new' trend has victims, and those victims are 'initially complex' games and 'games whose strategies take multiple games to find and use'. In other words, games of great complexity and richness, which I and my ilk prefer.

It's fine, of course, that I'm feeling more excluded from the majority of BGG users & game awards audiences, casual groups, average gamers, and etc. I've been gaming for over 35 years, and there's no danger of me drifting away.

I guess I'm just noting the trend, saying that it used to be easier to find gaming partners, game groups used to play one game dozens of times, BGG rankings used to be a reflection of my preferences, and Die Macher used to be in the top 10 where Dominion is now. Games are becoming simpler and simpler, 'amount of time to learn' and 'transparentness of strategy' are becoming real stumbling blocks for gamers--probably because individual games are played less frequently. I expect this trend to continue. The decline of rulebooks for Video games is a harbinger doom, in my mind.

So says the grumpy old man in this corner.

All of that aside, here's to Qwerkle and 7 Wonders! Worthy winners both! May they attract many to our fine hobby! And, may a few of those so attracted move beyond their early beginnings to embrace complex games and play them with me!

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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:09 pm
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Mark Waenink
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It's official. The SdJ is colourblind insensitive awarding one of the hardest games to play with colour deficiencies this year's top award.

Qwirkle's design could have included elements to make it colourblind friendly.

As I like abstract games, I would like to say that Qwirkle is a great game and deserves this title - BUT I CAN'T PLAY IT! My opinion of the SdJ drops another notch.

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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:15 pm
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All I want to throw into the discussion is that Lancaster is an amazing game and would've been my vote for the KdJ. 7 Wonders was obviously going to win, but I like to think that if 7 Wonders had been in the regular SdJ category, Lancaster would have won the KdJ. Over and out.
 
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:26 pm
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Qwirkle was designed by Susan McKinley Ross, who lives here in California, in the San Francisco Bay Area.

Today marks the first time in history that the most prestigious award in board gaming has gone to a woman.

Today also marks the first time in history that the most prestigious award in board gaming has gone to an American.

We live in exciting times! Times of change. We are playing under new rules. Excellent!

Also...the winner is from the San Francisco Bay Area (which makes me very proud) which has a VERY active gaming community, and perhaps a dozen game stores.

Lastly, I have met Susan, and she is great! Her heart is in the right place...

I am so happy for her!!!!!
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:27 pm
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Just for fun, I charted the weights of all SdJ winners:


While I personally haven't liked any SdJ winner since Ticket To Ride (yes, I still play that with family), I found the last two winners, Dixit and Qwirkle, to be particularly non-representative of the style of games typical of SdJ winners, or even recommendations. And that's my issue with it. Although it certainly doesn't affect my buying decisions... much. I did buy Dixit because of the SdJ. The Asara nomination made me (re)consider it, and a win might have even pushed me over the edge.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:31 pm
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Apple Paul wrote:
Today also marks the first time in history that the most prestigious award in board gaming has gone to an American.

Uh, no. Not even the second or third. I'll leave it to someone else to figure out the exact number.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:34 pm
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Patrick C.
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I'm not so much disappointed by the awards--it was some years ago that I stopped following the SdJ because it obviously wasn't directed at me--as I am disappointed by what I see as a general trend toward lighter games everywhere, including on BGG.


Here's the part I don't understand. You're a serious longtime gamer. You know more than I know to the nth degree. How many people do you represent in terms of a demographic? How many games can be sold by giving an award to a game that meets your standards?

When you have reached your level of expertise I would suspect that ALL awards that are focused on a general audience would be expected to be of zero interest to you.

Let's say you're someone who has watched thousands and thousands of movies. You've watched so many that now every single Hollywood made movie is boring. You've moved onto more complicated and deep fare from other countries. Obscure films from Africa, Asia or South America. Would you expect "Best Picture" to be awarded to a foreign language film that only a couple of thousand people in the entire country have seen?

I'm not trying to dismiss you or any other gamer who has years and years and YEARS of gaming experience. You know your stuff. Got it. You are bored by many common games. That you are bored is 100% understandable. What is not understandable is the view that your interests should be represented by an organization that is trying to expand board gaming to a wider audience. It just doesn't follow.

For the record, I hated Qwirkle. I'm a serious Scrabble player and I find the game severely lacking. I don't think it should have won if _my_ opinion mattered. But I believe this award is pragmatic and a service to board gaming in general. What I think of Qwirkle is irrelevant to the great good of board gaming.

Unfortunately, this is even more true the more advanced you are as a gamer. Because, as I posted earlier, you're already converted. The mission of the SDJ is to expand board gaming. It isn't to give accolades to the best game of the year.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:35 pm
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Apple Paul wrote:
Today also marks the first time in history that the most prestigious award in board gaming has gone to an American.


Alan Moon is not American?
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:37 pm
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Apple Paul wrote:
Qwirkle was designed by Susan McKinley Ross, who lives here in California, in the San Francisco Bay Area.

Today marks the first time in history that the most prestigious award in board gaming has gone to a woman.

Today also marks the first time in history that the most prestigious award in board gaming has gone to an American.

We live in exciting times! Times of change. We are playing under new rules. Excellent!

Also...the winner is from the San Francisco Bay Area (which makes me very proud) which has a VERY active gaming community, and perhaps a dozen game stores.

Lastly, I have met Susan, and she is great! Her heart is in the right place...

I am so happy for her!!!!!


Yes Susan is the first solo woman designer of a game.

There have been two other woman:
Suzanne Goldberg for Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective in 1985

Dorothy Garrels for Scotland Yard in 1983.





While both of those were shared awards with other designers, Susan is the first solo designer.

As for American designers. There have been a few others:

Alan Moon: Ticket to Ride 2004
Richard Borg: Liars Dice 1993
Alex Randolph: Enchanted Forest 1982
Sid Sackson: Focus 1981


Nonetheless, a great day for Susan and American designers.

Edit: How could I forget Dominion and Donald X. Vaccarino in 2009?
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  • Edited Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:19 am
  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:42 pm
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DaviddesJ wrote:
cbs42 wrote:
I agree that the optimal move is a fairly obvious decision IF you see it.


I think a lot of people are seriously misunderstanding how to play Qwirkle, and consequently underestimating the game. A key to the game is the 6-point bonus for completing Qwirkles, this means that taking the "highest-scoring move" that just opens up a much bigger score for an opponent is not necessarily a good idea. Much like playing Scrabble and opening up triple word scores for your opponent.


Best argument I've seen so far regarding the choice of Qwirkle.

That and the fact that just about anyone can play the game. I run a yearly Family Game Night for my little town of San Carlos. We get 120-180 people to show up and play all manner of games. The games people go away wanting a copy of their own are Qwirkle, Blokus, SET, Ingenious, and similar games. The LGS sold out of Qwirkle the following day it was so popular and the same thing happened with Blokus the previous year.

That's the sort of popularity that gets families into gaming. It's a popularity we should cheer, because the families that play Qwirkle today will be a little more encouraged to try something else that's new tomorrow.

Let me add my hearty Congratulations to Susan for her Sdj award.

Full disclosure, I know Susan from my association with KublaCon.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:46 pm
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Is it AZIRKLE in French ?
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:53 pm
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kanoe wrote:
As I like abstract games, I would like to say that Qwirkle is a great game and deserves this title - BUT I CAN'T PLAY IT!

Hogwash. You can't play it right out of the box, but you can certainly play it:

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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:58 pm
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There is no such thing as bad publicity so the SDJ will be a success if the sales of games increases as a result. We all win as a result. But I wonder if there are any stats to prove that the SDJ makes a real difference outside Germany? If not, is it really relevant other than within the community which may mean its not relevant to non-gamers who might be otherwise attracted to our great hobby?

Perhaps the SDJ is trying too hard to be all things and succeeds in being the opposite and pleasing only a minority?

Why don't they call it Best Family game with children say 8+? With the Kinderspiel being clearly for up to age 7.

Probably needs more categories to be honest. These aren't enough to compare properly and surely don't help the non-gamer to understand what they are getting.

Quirkle, for instance could have won Best Abstract which would make a lot more sense and it would have been competing against peers.

Just random questions but I have to say, ss things stand, I really just am not very convinced of the relevance.

 
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  • Edited Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:05 pm
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tornspace wrote:
disclamer wrote:
I'd like to point out if you visit bgg more than once a week or so, the SdJ awards are not targeted at your demographic. Not even the Kennerspiel. Probably not even more than once every few months.


Exactly. The total fanbase of BGG represents less than a blip on the balance sheet of any but the smallest game publishers.

But this discussion is on BGG. So the discussion is explicitly in relation to the BGG user-base. If the discussion were on Walmart's forums (do they even have them?) then that would likely result in a different set of viewpoints.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:01 pm
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xTHAWx wrote:
Congrats to the winners. Nice to see Quirkle get some recognition - a nice quick game, but has an interesting strategy held within it. Nice components too!

For me, Forbidden Island really didn't do it - I found it a bit too easy. I've played all difficulty levels and have only lost once, on my first game. Give me Pandemic any day - a much greater sense of satisfaction when you finally manage to beat it

Also, no surprises with 7 Wonders, but it is a great game!


And Forbidden Island is in your Top 10. And, you only played it 3 times...
 
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  • Edited Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:46 am
  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:14 pm
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Is not Alan Moon from Luna? Hence, he is a Lunan (or, alternatively, a Looney).
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:27 pm
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I have a funny story to share about Qwirkle and Reiner Knizia.

Two years ago at Kubla Con 2009 (Memorial Day Weekend in San Francisco, US) I had the opportunity to play a couple of Reiner's prototype games with Reiner himself.

Reiner did not have a official title of the game so I didn't take note of its working title at the time, but the premise of the game was that there were cards/tiles (prototype, so I don't know what final production plans would have been) with different colors and shapes on them. To start, each player drew a hand of tiles to play with and then played a tile on the table to create a play space, draw a replacement tile and then pass play to the left. The next player would add to the previous tile, etc...

Before the first play I was looking at another BGG'er and game designer, smiling, trying not to giggle... I think we let the game play on for a round or two just to confirm our suspicions and then explained to Reiner that "this game," one of his latest prototype designs, already existed.

Reiner was befuddled and confused, so we rounded up a copy of Qwirkle and played with him. Lets say he was a bit set back about the turn of events. Luckily, the designer of Qwirkle, Susan McKinley Ross, was also at the convention as a guest designer. In short order they were introduce and I believe she gave and signed a copy of Qwirkle to Reiner to take with him.

I share this story because I found it amusing at the time and because I wonder if Qwirkle getting published in Germany and getting Nominated for the SdJ was influenced by Reiner's encounter with the game a couple years ago, probably not based on the timeline in the OP, but a curious series of events non the less.

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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:33 pm
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peacmyer wrote:
Is not Alan Moon from Luna?

I don't get it.

Edit: Ok, yeah, I get it, I'm just slow. Moon = Luna. I was confused because a) Luna is a new game (that I quite like) that is not by Moon, and b) I have a cold and am drugged up. soblue
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  • Edited Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:20 pm
  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:36 pm
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Just to kibitz* a little. I actually don't think 7 Wonders is that light! (but I agree it can be played lightly)

kibbutz = edited out to protect Camp David Accords

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  • Edited Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:19 pm
  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:03 pm
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3ripmav wrote:
I have a funny story to share about Qwirkle and Reiner Knizia. ...

That story doesn't really surprise me. Knizia has said before that he doesn't play many games of other authors. He's just too busy designing and playtesting his own games.

"...there's an advantage to that. An advantage of not knowing what other designers are doing. ... That gets into the way of creativity."
(From an interview with Reiner Knizia)
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:21 pm
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curtc wrote:
Apple Paul wrote:
Today also marks the first time in history that the most prestigious award in board gaming has gone to an American.

Uh, no. Not even the second or third. I'll leave it to someone else to figure out the exact number.


Who me overexuberant about the win? You are right!

Going back through the history of this award...looking more closely for US designers...I found Sid Sackson for Focus (1981), Alex Randolph for Enchanted Forest (1983), Richard Borg for Liar's Dice (1993). And I believe Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective (1985) (which seems to have a mysterious history) was designed by Americans Raymond Edwards, Suzanne Goldberg, and Gary Grady. Alan Moon...Ticket to Ride (2004) and Elfenland (1998)...was born in England but has lived most of his life in the US.

And Donald X. Vaccarino, the designer of Dominion (2009), I believe is from the US. How could I overlook Donald X. Vaccarino? Then again, here is the mysterious (and funny) BGG bio of him:

"Donald X. was born in 1969, after years of not existing.

Of his life, little is known.

Donald X. is like something you've forgotten that no-one wants you to remember.

He's everything and nothing, but not at the same time.

If you rotate Donald X. 360 degrees, he'll only be standing upside down. You have to rotate him 720 degrees to get him back where he started. You know how if you hook tons and tons of computers together, maybe they'll develop some kind of bizarre mass sentience? That's Donald X. in a nutshell.

In fact Donald X. is nothing more than a corrupt, profane monument to a slightly earlier version of himself."
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:24 pm
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The SdJ award is not aimed at the people posting here - not because they have a different idea of what a "Kennerspiel" is, or because they might disagree on what's difficult and what's easy, but because pretty much everyone that argues in this thread is someone who plays plenty of new games in any given year. Some of these we try because others introduce them to us (then it will depend on a personal recommendation rather than an award won), some we buy ourselves. But how many of us buy a game without making an at least somewhat informed decision? The average BGG user doesn't need the SdJ because s/he is exposed to a huge amount of information, comparisons, ratings, pictures, personal recommendations etc.

In Germany, many (many!) people buy exactly one game per year. For Christmas. Then they play it with their family over the holidays. They might look at two or three alternatives in the game store (or department store), but it will only take a few minutes. Then they walk away with the current SdJ. Some don't even check for alternatives. It doesn't matter how many of us think that sucks. It's the market. No matter what previous winners were like, we should only compare Qwirkle to 7 Wonders. I have played neither of these, and it seems that there are a few people here who think that Qwirkle is the deeper game (the name is certainly terrible for the average German English speaker). But in Germany this year, many people will be faced with the decision whether they consider themselves "normal", Qwirkle-buying people, or "advanced", 7 wonders-buying people. And a couple of 10,000 people might just say: "Whatever, I will just buy them both, just to make sure". This might mean that two new games will be introduced to their families this year. What's wrong with that? People wouldn't do this with the Kinderspiel des Jahres, and also not with the other nominees. As a conclusion, I think the new award is a brilliant plan, no matter which games get the awards.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:26 pm
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Lee Fisher
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3ripmav wrote:
I have a funny story to share about Qwirkle and Reiner Knizia.

Two years ago at Kubla Con 2009 (Memorial Day Weekend in San Francisco, US) I had the opportunity to play a couple of Reiner's prototype games with Reiner himself.

Reiner did not have a official title of the game so I didn't take note of its working title at the time, but the premise of the game was that there were cards/tiles (prototype, so I don't know what final production plans would have been) with different colors and shapes on them. To start, each player drew a hand of tiles to play with and then played a tile on the table to create a play space, draw a replacement tile and then pass play to the left. The next player would add to the previous tile, etc...

Before the first play I was looking at another BGG'er and game designer, smiling, trying not to giggle... I think we let the game play on for a round or two just to confirm our suspicions and then explained to Reiner that "this game," one of his latest prototype designs, already existed.

Reiner was befuddled and confused, so we rounded up a copy of Qwirkle and played with him. Lets say he was a bit set back about the turn of events. Luckily, the designer of Qwirkle, Susan McKinley Ross, was also at the convention as a guest designer. In short order they were introduce and I believe she gave and signed a copy of Qwirkle to Reiner to take with him.

I share this story because I found it amusing at the time and because I wonder if Qwirkle getting published in Germany and getting Nominated for the SdJ was influenced by Reiner's encounter with the game a couple years ago, probably not based on the timeline in the OP, but a curious series of events non the less.



Is this also how Einfach Genial came about?
 
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:27 pm
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I did not know the SdJ was aimed at the causally gaming family audience. I had thought it aimed for a more knowledgeable group of consumers. So, I learned something and recant my dismay at the choice, since it makes sense with that goal in mind. I do feel like Qwirkle is a bit outside of the normal feel of SdJ games, though, but I also love the heck out of poor, forgotten Manhattan, which is also pretty basic and abstract. And won in '94.

Also: I am destabilizing the internet because I have changed my opinion based upon well-reasoned responses given during a forum argument.
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  • Edited Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:34 pm
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HilkMAN wrote:
In Germany, many (many!) people buy exactly one game per year. For Christmas. Then they play it with their family over the holidays. They might look at two or three alternatives in the game store (or department store), but it will only take a few minutes. Then they walk away with the current SdJ. Some don't even check for alternatives. It doesn't matter how many of us think that sucks. It's the market.

I don't think anyone here thinks it sucks that people would buy a game strictly based on the award. That's perfectly understandable. Some people merely feel that Qwirkle is not the best choice for the type of customer you described.

HilkMAN wrote:
No matter what previous winners were like, we should only compare Qwirkle to 7 Wonders.

Why? If a customer bought the SdJ in previous years, and was satisfied, doesn't that mean they will have preconceived notions about what an SdJ-winning game is like?

HilkMAN wrote:
And a couple of 10,000 people might just say: "Whatever, I will just buy them both, just to make sure". This might mean that two new games will be introduced to their families this year. What's wrong with that?

It's a question of good/better/best. Sure, buying any two random games is good. But:
a) People might be disappointed with what they got.
b) SdJ is not just about bringing games to people, it's also about bringing money to the people and organizations behind the games. Which in the broadest terms means more from the SdJ winners, less from SdJ losers.

HilkMAN wrote:
As a conclusion, I think the new award is a brilliant plan, no matter which games get the awards.

I don't think the issue people have been raising is about the plan.
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:44 pm
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First of all, hello, since this is my first post here after reading the forums for some weeks and now with this discussion feeling the need to add my thoughts and opinions.

Living in Germany i'm quite surprised at the popularity of the SdJ Award outside of Germany and the understanding of the new Kennerspiel Award.

First of all as stated already this does not mean Connoisseur or enthusiast, it describes someone who is more adept at gaming because of experiences with other games (for example previous SdJ winners). The Kennerspiel award is aimed at intermediate gamers for whom the beginner games are not challenging enough and too complex games aren't their thing either.

I myself would see me as an intermediate game, playing once or twice a month and visiting the Spiel almost every year to find some new games to play with beginners and intermediates. From what I've read so far 7 wonders should be for me and Qwirkle probably isn't.


I had a look at the past 10 winners of the SdJ and tried to decide if they would win the SdJ or the KedJ Award, based on my personal experience. Here is what i came up with (S for SdJ and K for KedJ):
S 2010 Dixit
K 2009 Dominion
S 2008 Keltis
S 2007 Zooloretto
K 2006 Thurn and Taxis
S 2005 Niagara
K 2004 Ticket to Ride
K 2003 Alhambra
S 2002 Villa Paletti
K 2001 Carcassonne

So basically it's a draw and the Kennerspiel Award only tries to distinguish between beginner and intermediate gamers and games they would like. Not surprisingly I own and like the games marked with a K and only own Keltis of the games marked with a S (and do not really like to play it).

From my point of view, without knowing this years winners, the placement in these two categories seems accurate and I can savely buy the KedJ each year without worrying about buying a game that is too easy for me
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:46 pm
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Troymk1 wrote:
Just to kibbutz a little. I actually don't think 7 Wonders is that light! (but I agree it can be played lightly)



LOL laughlaughlaugh Kibbutz is a collective. You mean Kibbitz. ...and 7 wonders is certainly light fare.
 
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:10 pm
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curtc wrote:
HilkMAN wrote:
In Germany, many (many!) people buy exactly one game per year. For Christmas. Then they play it with their family over the holidays. They might look at two or three alternatives in the game store (or department store), but it will only take a few minutes. Then they walk away with the current SdJ. Some don't even check for alternatives. It doesn't matter how many of us think that sucks. It's the market.

I don't think anyone here thinks it sucks that people would buy a game strictly based on the award. That's perfectly understandable. Some people merely feel that Qwirkle is not the best choice for the type of customer you described.

HilkMAN wrote:
No matter what previous winners were like, we should only compare Qwirkle to 7 Wonders.

Why? If a customer bought the SdJ in previous years, and was satisfied, doesn't that mean they will have preconceived notions about what an SdJ-winning game is like?


Unlike (apparently) many others, I feel that there is no typical SdJ winner. On the contrary, I think the jury tries to find different gaming styles every time. Dixit was a weird choice for me, as I found it un-original and not too good at what it delivered compared to other games with a similar concept. But for last year, it was a more logical choice than, say, Fresco, because it had a new concept compared to previous winners. Whereas Fresco was just a reasonably good game.
So I do think that the average casual buyer will appreciate something new every year (within a limit). It has been a long-standing tradition and it has worked so far.

Quote:


HilkMAN wrote:
And a couple of 10,000 people might just say: "Whatever, I will just buy them both, just to make sure". This might mean that two new games will be introduced to their families this year. What's wrong with that?

It's a question of good/better/best. Sure, buying any two random games is good. But:
a) People might be disappointed with what they got.
b) SdJ is not just about bringing games to people, it's also about bringing money to the people and organizations behind the games. Which in the broadest terms means more from the SdJ winners, less from SdJ losers.

a) I don't see any reason for disappointment for the target audience of the awards this year. At all. And I am saying this without having played either of them.
b) Only in the broadest terms, as outlined above. There will be a good number of people who previously only bought one game per year, now buying two. What I am more curious about is the sales numbers of these two games. I have been told that there have been rather stable sales numbers in previous years for the winning game. I wonder whether these numbers will decline in favor of the Kennerspiel, but I am reasonably sure that there will be an increase in overall sales of games.
Quote:


HilkMAN wrote:
As a conclusion, I think the new award is a brilliant plan, no matter which games get the awards.

I don't think the issue people have been raising is about the plan.


I did mean "the plan and how it has been executed".
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  • Posted Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:12 pm
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Curt Carpenter
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HilkMAN wrote:
Dixit was a weird choice for me, as I found it un-original and not too good at what it delivered compared to other games with a similar concept. But for last year, it was a more logical choice than, say, Fresco, because it had a new concept compared to previous winners. Whereas Fresco was just a reasonably good game.

So I do think that the average casual buyer will appreciate something new every year (within a limit). It has been a long-standing tradition and it has worked so far.

What is Qwirkle's new concept that elevates it above "just a reasonably good game"?

HilkMAN wrote:
a) I don't see any reason for disappointment for the target audience of the awards this year. At all. And I am saying this without having played either of them.

Ok. Some people, however, do see reasons. They're above. If you've read them, and would like to share a reason why you disagree, that would be wonderful.

HilkMAN wrote:
...I am reasonably sure that there will be an increase in overall sales of games.

I suspect so as well. But again, I don't think anyone is arguing against that. You seem to be saying, "hey people, no matter who wins, SdJ is good for the industry." And I haven't seen anyone disagree with that. That's just not what we're discussing.

HilkMAN wrote:
curtc wrote:
HilkMAN wrote:
As a conclusion, I think the new award is a brilliant plan, no matter which games get the awards.

I don't think the issue people have been raising is about the plan.

I did mean "the plan and how it has been executed".

I can't quite parse what you're saying there. Are you saying the plan is brilliant, and it has been executed brilliantly? Or something else? If the former, then what part of the execution did you find brilliant, given that you haven't played the winning games?
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:20 am
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DaviddesJ wrote:
It sounds like they need to introduce the Kennerkennerspiel des Jahres – or "Connoisseur's Connoisseur's Game of the Year" - so they can give an award sooner or later to some game that's not trivial.

Giving the "advsnced" award to 7 Wonders is like giving the "Connoisseur's Movie of the Year" to Dumb and Dumber.



david

i guess it depends on what your objective as the jury is. if you are trying to establish a new award and get the new pawn on as many boxes as possible, you sort of push a fringe game, which is likely the biggest seller of the year, into the new category. then you go with a game that is more likely to appeal to the mass market, where as if you want to establish an award that most casual families will care about, then you choose navegador.
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Duke_Rufus wrote:
From this year's results I'm sure we misunderstood their reason for creating a "connoisseur's game" category. It wasn't so the SdJ winner could get more complex - it's so that the original SdJ could become even simpler, while the connoisseur's game is what we would have originally considered the SdJ contender.


Sadly, this might actually be the case !
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curtc wrote:
tornspace wrote:
disclamer wrote:
I'd like to point out if you visit bgg more than once a week or so, the SdJ awards are not targeted at your demographic. Not even the Kennerspiel. Probably not even more than once every few months.


Exactly. The total fanbase of BGG represents less than a blip on the balance sheet of any but the smallest game publishers.

But this discussion is on BGG. So the discussion is explicitly in relation to the BGG user-base. If the discussion were on Walmart's forums (do they even have them?) then that would likely result in a different set of viewpoints.


I'm not saying you can't have a discussion about the SdJ here or anything like that. Just keep in mind that if you think you know better than the SdJ jury what makes a good SdJ Award winner, you're wrong.

I'm speculating here, but I'd be willing to bet that the SdJ jury doesn't get on their forum and decry the Golden Geek Award as worthless because the users of BGG didn't pick the jury's favorite game.

What I'm saying is, arguments about which game is "better" or which game you prefer or which game you would have liked to see win are totally valid. Arguments about which game should rightly have won the SdJ or which game the jury should have chosen are ill-conceived because you do not have the cultural grounding or the jury's insight and instruction to make that judgment.

It's a fine line.
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  • Edited Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:48 am
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disclamer wrote:
Just keep in mind that if you think you know better than the SdJ jury what makes a good SdJ Award winner, you're wrong.


SdJ is a self serving line. You can take a game that got so-so small publisher sales at best, paste on the SdJ logo, and Bada Bing! Instant mega sales. I could easily pick a "good" SdJ Award winner, as it doesn't take anything but the name alone to be a success.
 
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curtc wrote:
HilkMAN wrote:
Dixit was a weird choice for me, as I found it un-original and not too good at what it delivered compared to other games with a similar concept. But for last year, it was a more logical choice than, say, Fresco, because it had a new concept compared to previous winners. Whereas Fresco was just a reasonably good game.

So I do think that the average casual buyer will appreciate something new every year (within a limit). It has been a long-standing tradition and it has worked so far.

What is Qwirkle's new concept that elevates it above "just a reasonably good game"?


You forgot part of his comment. It was, "new concept compared to previous winners," which criteria Qwirkle surely meets, yes?

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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:18 am
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Funguy wrote:
The problem is that this same conversation is rolled out every year.


It can't be rolled out every year, because this is the very first year for the Kennerspiel.

It's fair to ask, if you are creating a special award for "connoisseur" games, are you paying any attention to what the connoisseurs like? And the answer is clearly no. Why shouldn't the connoisseurs be disappointed by that?

Quote:
The reason why it is sad, it why can't we as a community just celebrate the winners.


I'm not a celebratory kind of guy. If you're going to have a community, you have to accept that a community is made up of all different sorts of people. Excluding me isn't going to make your community stronger, any more than excluding the light gamers would.


Just remember Jethro Tull won the first Heavy Metal Grammy award, while Metallica back in their prime lost. Luckily long before then I stopped caring about awards ceremonies. They rarely ever pick what I like and when they do I chalk up to just blind dumb luck. I am sure everyone likes to win an award (yes I am included), and I am not saying they are without merit, but I agree with Chapel in the fact that I don't think anyone credible takes awards as a serious attempt at naming great "anything" unless they are from the periphery. I do agree you could put SDJ Award on poop and many people would probably buy it. Wait that is already a game....Poo...wait didn't that just win an award?
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  • Edited Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:31 am
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MWChapel wrote:
disclamer wrote:
Just keep in mind that if you think you know better than the SdJ jury what makes a good SdJ Award winner, you're wrong.


SdJ is a self serving line. You can take a game that got so-so small publisher sales at best, paste on the SdJ logo, and Bada Bing! Instant mega sales. I could easily pick a "good" SdJ Award winner, as it doesn't take anything but the name alone to be a success.


Sure, anyone can pick a good game that should win an award. I'm just saying that there is more to choosing the SdJ than "which game is the best game?" It's certainly more nuanced than a popularity contest.
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This just proves how utterly useless and absurd this awards deal is. Qwirkle? Really? Give me a bloody break.
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:03 am
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disclamer wrote:
You forgot part of his comment. It was, "new concept compared to previous winners," which criteria Qwirkle surely meets, yes?

I didn't forget it. It was right there in what I quoted. With so few games as actual SdJ winners, virtually every game offers something new relative to such a small set. Fresco and Asara would have too. There have been plenty of "standard" games to win, without being as original as a Villa Paletti or Dixit. And abstracts as "new" as Qwirkle such as Einfach Genial have been nominated before and lost.
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:29 am
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curtc wrote:
tornspace wrote:
disclamer wrote:
I'd like to point out if you visit bgg more than once a week or so, the SdJ awards are not targeted at your demographic. Not even the Kennerspiel. Probably not even more than once every few months.

Exactly. The total fanbase of BGG represents less than a blip on the balance sheet of any but the smallest game publishers.

But this discussion is on BGG. So the discussion is explicitly in relation to the BGG user-base. If the discussion were on Walmart's forums (do they even have them?) then that would likely result in a different set of viewpoints.

True, but I don't think tornspace (and travvller in this post) are trying to shut people up. Rather they're highlighting the futility of members of a select audience (i.e., BGG users) protesting an award aimed at a mass audience – futility in the sense of yelling into the storm as the BGG readership is small potatoes relative to the scale of the worldwide game market.

Alex Despres asked above:

Quote:
Is this an attempt by SdJ to tout games they perceive will be bestsellers? I have to say it feels like they're trying to embrace a game that will get more "mainstream" sales and get that SdJ logo on a game you might see in WalMart, Target, and other common retailers... Spiel des Jahres is for nongamers now? That seems a bit counter-intuitive.

As Despres acknowledged later following a nice explanation of the award from Hilko Drude, yes, that's exactly right! The Spiel des Jahres is for non-gamers and (almost) always has been.

In its press release announcing the iPad version of Ticket to Ride, for example, Days of Wonder noted that more than 1.5 million TtR board games have sold. Fewer than 18,000 copies of the first TtR game – which won SdJ in 2004 – are listed as owned on BGG, which is just over 1% of that sales total. Even if you add ownership records for all the standalone Ticket to Ride games, that's only 37,300 copies or 2.5% of that sales total. Yes, I know that not all BGG readers track the games they own, but I think it's safe to say that at least a million copies of TtR have found homes with people who are not BGG readers, people who likely play only a few different games each year and play those games over and over. That's the audience that the SdJ jury is aiming for!

Jennifer Schlickbernd brought up the International Gamers Awards as she suspects that jury will choose a game closer to her tastes, and that's undoubtedly true as IGA members choose the games that they think are best for themselves, veteran gamers with decades of experience, whereas the SdJ jury members choose the games they think are best for everyone who is the opposite of an IGA jury member. From that perspective, the award winners make a lot of sense. As a SdJ jury member, I want Josef Public to go into a store and pick up a game that he will likely enjoy, despite having almost no experience with other games.

This is why 7 Wonders falls into the Kennerspiel category. While I can teach people Dominion in five minutes, including set-up time, teaching 7 Wonders takes far longer and is way more involved. With Dominion, I can give everyone their starting cards and explain the game while I take my first turn, demonstrating the ABC breakdown of play and showing by example. Players can do little in their first turns, so they're gradually brought up the ladder of difficulty as the game progresses. After that first game, they say, "Ah, let's try this again now that I know what I'm doing." With 7 Wonders, you have to explain how to draft cards, and what to do with the cards you draft, and how to get resources to build those cards, and how cards score, and what happens at the end of each age, and oh, yes, how each player's individual wonder works – then you can actually start the game! Sure, 7 Wonders also features that "can't stop at just one" potato chippy feeling of wanting to play again and again to avoid past mistakes in future games, but getting over the rules hump prior to that first game is a doozy compared to other SdJ winners – especially when the player learning the game has little experience with other modern games.

I speak from experience as my Meetup group in Concord, NH would attract people both new to modern games and new to my group, and I taught 7 Wonders a least a dozen times over the summer and fall of 2010 while playing an advance copy of the game prior to reviewing it. Even with a dozen teachings under my belt, I'm still stymied as to the best way to teach the game. You need to provide enough details to play without burdening the newcomer with so many details that he or she bogs down from trying to remember everything. The rulebook doesn't have that luxury and needs to include everything that a player needs to know, which makes it tougher to get off the kickstand and start riding. (Some games, such as Galaxy Trucker, do a great job of emulating video games and throwing players neck deep into play with only a few guidelines, but most don't.)

As for Qwirkle, let's look at a common point of view about the game:

drazkor wrote:
I just don't get Qwirkle. It seems like every move is automatic. 95% of the time the best move it to score the maximum amount of points now by making a funny turn on an existing row. You can rarely, wisely set yourself up for a qwirkle, because there is almost always a better chance that one of your opponents will make qwirkle before you (every player has an equal chance of drawing the correct pieces, plus your opponents have secret hands). Planning ahead just seems out of the question in the game.

I may be totally missing something here with this game (did I mention that I'm not that smart?). Why do you like Qwirkle? Why does it deserve recognition of any kind?

Chris Schenck and David desJardins have rebutted those points to some degree, but I figured I'd dive in, too, excerpting from my 2007 review of Qwirkle and other comments I've written about the game:

At first glance, Qwirkle seems like the easiest game in the world to have designed. The rules are so simple and intuitive that you feel this game must have existed for eons as a kind of urgame in the collective unconscious. You're matching colors, matching shapes – using skills learned in preschool, if not the crib, so you're not surprised to see the game labeled for players aged 6 and up. Didn't this game already exist decades ago as a pedagogical tool? Apparently not, but don't be surprised if you find it in kindergartens and rec rooms everywhere in a few years.

Enough lofty talk – here's how to play: Initially, the game seems to be determined by luck, that is, whoever draws tiles that complete a line or add to multiple lines will win. After a few games, though, you learn how to play defensively, cutting off opportunities to complete a line by sandwiching the ends of an open line with off-color or off-symbol tiles that render spaces unplayable. You pay more attention to the order in which you place tiles to create opportunities for future plays. You leave a symbol or color dangling open on a line to lure an opponent into adding to it, thereby setting you up for a future play.

Managing the endgame also becomes clearer with repeated play. Once the reserve of tiles runs out, players keep taking turns until someone plays her final tile. This player scores six bonus points, then the player with the highest score wins.

In my first game or two, I played the end the same as the beginning – laying out whichever tiles scored the most points each turn – but with experience I've changed my approach to turns from start to finish. I pay more attention each turn to what I can set up for myself in future turns and play more defense. Moreover, I might sacrifice a point or two if I can play more tiles and therefore increase my odds of drawing a tile I really need.

As for the endgame, you ideally want the player to your right to take the last tiles in the reserve as that increases your odds of going out first. You might even keep pairs or triplets of matching tiles in reserve as the endgame nears so that you can rocket out quickly and grab those final bonus points.

Qwirkle resembles Ingenious/Einfach Genial, both in looks and game play, but the similarities should be seen in a positive light rather than a reason to dismiss this new game as more of the same. Just as my playing style in Ingenious has advanced through multiple stages – from making big pools of color to playing defense against opponents to sabotaging a color to monopolize it – I can see the same progression already taking place with Qwirkle. You can make skillful plays if you know what to look for.

That said, players can approach the game with different frames of mind and still have a fun time. You can play semi-cooperatively with family members young and old, not worrying about the risk of someone else completing a line, or you can be more cutthroat and think through each play. Luck will still play a role in determining who wins; drawing duplicate tiles or drawing a tile that you just played (which feels even worse than a duplicate) can hamper your play possibilities. This mix of luck and skill, along with the easy-to-learn rules and clear examples of play, creates a fabulous abstract game that should win over almost anyone who plays games.

[Editorial note: Wow, that closing paragraph from my review is a succinct explanation for why Qwirkle won SdJ, roughly four years before it actually did so! Next come two paragraphs from my Feb. 2009 review of Lost Cities: The Board Game/Keltis, the 2009 SdJ winner.]

Many people are appalled that Keltis is the title for which Knizia won Spiel des Jahres, viewing it as a reward for mediocrity. What they're missing is that for some people the game is a lot of fun. No, it's not complicated and deep like Taj Mahal or Amun-Re – two titles for which Knizia received a SdJ recommendation – but it doesn't have to be when the design works as well as it does.

For me, the excitement of Lost Cities: The Board Game doesn't originate in deep or gut-wrenching choices – although I do feel like I'm still learning how to play better. No, the excitement of LC:TBG comes from seeing your opponent's face crumble after he draws a card that became obsolete for him that same turn, from snatching an artifact by advancing down a secondary path and earning the right to move an additional figure, from holding off on playing to an expedition and having that gamble pay off by receiving the cards you hoped for. In that sense, the game is like Cribbage or Qwirkle or some other game with easy rules and medium levels of randomness. The joy of the game comes from interacting with my fellow players – ideally beating them! – and the simplicity of the game facilitates that interaction, while at the same time challenging me to play well and not be swept away by the randomness of the card deck.

[From an April 2007 BGN column titled "My Top Game of 2007 Is..."]

Not going to be revealed for several more paragraphs. You might think April is too early to unveil my top game for 2007, but let me lay out the facts first to see whether I can convince you otherwise.

To start with, the key words in the subject line are "my top". I'm not claiming that this title is, and will continue to be, the best designed game of the year. (The game was actually released in 2006 after all!) I doubt we could agree on objective standards for "best" in any case, so I'll instead rely on personal experience, most importantly the "number of times played" statistic.

I've tracked my games played since mid-2003 on BoardGameGeek and have seen a clear pattern emerge. Each year, I acquire one game that my wife Linda comes to love, and we subsequently play that game to death. The first year this occurred was 2004 with Leo Colovini's Familienbande. I bought the game through Adam Spielt in July, then played it more than fifty times before the end of the year. [Other games that fit this category are Diamant, Knizia's Easy Come, Easy Go and To Court the King.]

Why these four games? What do they all have in common? Here are a few shared attributes:

Short rules. You can teach anyone these games in just a few minutes, making them perfect for both the initial game and any subsequent games when we have someone new at the table.
Short playing time. None of these games takes longer than 30 minutes, and depending on the flow of the game 10-15 minutes isn't out of the question.
Level playing field. The luck factor in each of these games is relatively high, which balances out most of the gains that can be made through strategy. Don't draw your family's trait in Familienbande? Better luck next time.

So what's this year's spring surprise? If you caught my review of Qwirkle in mid-March, then you won't be surprised when I say that this game matches all of the characteristics listed above. You can learn the rules in minutes, finish a game in a half-hour, and find the luck of the tiles sometimes determining the winner.

Although I initially compared the game to Einfach Genial/Ingenious, a better comparison would be to Scrabble. After I taught the game to one player, for example, he said, "Oh, it's Scrabble with color and shape placement restrictions for tiles worth a single point, with a six-point bingo for maxing out a row". That's a great summary of the game if you're describing it to knowledgable game-players.

I've played Qwirkle more than twenty times in a month and expect to be playing it far into the summer. [I'm at 127 plays as of June 2011.] The game plays well with two, three, and four players, and the number of players does affect the plays that you'll make. With only two players, for example, I tend to create more potential bingoes (that is, rows of five tiles) for my opponent when I can score seven or more points on that turn. Odds are roughly even that I'll draw the sixth tile needed for the row before my opponent does, so the payout is worth the risk.

The nature of your opponents also affects the flow of the game. Some people like to disrupt rows whenever possible, blocking all players from making bingoes since they have little chance of completing the row themselves. Sometimes neighborhoods of one or more shape develop, effectively killing those regions of the board unless you draw that shape yourself.

With more experience, I can now better see when players are trying to build up an area of the board for future scoring – possibly because I'm learning how to do this myself. Even when you can play multiple tiles on a turn, for instance, you sometimes don't want to in order to set up a future bingo with a supplemental crossrow score.

After finishing a game recently, we were contemplating with our friend Max the idea of playing Inverse Qwirkle, that is, requiring that all tiles in a line segment not match in both color and shape. A few days later, after playing the game as is, Linda and I shuffled the tiles again and tried our hand at Inverse Qwirkle.

The game played surprisingly well, although both of us complained of immense headaches from about the sixth turn on. The number of plays available to you is astounding, and the order in which you lay the tiles down matters much more as the requirement to not match cuts off plays that would normally be ideal.

As with the standard game, you can create bingoes of six tiles in Inverse Qwirkle, but since you're forced to not match existing colors and shapes, you have more potential plays when adding to a row of three or four tiles. With four tiles, for example, you have two pairs of tiles that can be played, and with three tiles you have six possible triplets. These options give your tiles in hand values that are more difficult to evaluate – and since you can typically play more tiles per turn than in the regular game, you have oodles more to consider for each play.

The only drawback, aside from the icecreamless icecream headache, was a greater risk of making a mistake while placing a tile. We did this once but noticed only after a few turns when it was impossible to reset the game and subtract the right number of points. In the end, we threw the offending tile back in the mix, attached an asterisk to the game, and moved on.

I'm sure to play many more new games in the remaining eight-plus months of 2007, but I'm unlikely to find a game that will unseat Qwirkle as my top game of the year. I've taught the game to people of all ages and game experience levels, and it's gone over well with all of them.

[From a Sept. 2007 BGN column]

I recently ran across a quote from Greg Aleknevicus, editor of The Games Journal – a fantastic (and unfortunately defunct) online gaming magazine – that struck a chord:

Quote:
I've come to the conclusion that the vast majority of games have depths that are hidden to those who play only a few times. So much so that I think it's unwise to assume that you've seen all a game has to offer after your second play, no matter how simple the game appears. [For example,] I agree with another gamer's assessment of Coloretto – there just doesn't seem to be much there – but experience has taught me that this is most likely due to the fact that I don't like the game enough to seek any depth it may have.

Many gamers complain about a vast flood of games being released on the market, claiming that they can play a game only once or twice before their fellow players (or they themselves) move on to something else. While this habit is, of course, self-imposed and one that players could eliminate if they really wanted to, I understand the desire to try out new games and see what designers have created. Who am I supposed to be, and how do I interact with others? How are we moving the bits around this time? And so on.

One consequence of playing games only once or twice, however, seems to be a willingness by some to categorize games quickly and be done with them. I experienced this recently with Galaxy Trucker when two first-time players started discussing the game's flaws the minute it ended. "It's too luck-based in the spaceship construction," they claimed. "Maybe you should be able to ignore the component connections and just place pieces anywhere. And the adventure cards are too harsh. There's no way anyone can survive their intergalactic journey."

Sixty minutes after learning about the existence of this game, they had already dissected it, catalogued its flaws, and filed it away mentally. They knew the game cold.

To be fair, both of them said they'd be willing to play the game again. They didn't think it was awful or even bad; they had merely detected certain problems with it. What fascinated me, though, was that rather than change the way they played the game, they wanted to change the game itself...

Perhaps a better example of Greg's statement in action is the way in which people dismiss the abstract game Qwirkle as not having much there or of being an exercise in who draws the best tiles. I've played the game more than sixty times, mostly with my wife and a friend in my local game group, and our playing has definitely evolved over time. We've become better judges of what the other players are trying to do when they make a certain play: Is that all that he can do, or is this a set-up to encourage me to play something that he'll add to again? We can block off scoring opportunities better. We know when to throw away tiles in the hope of something better and when we're better off dumping junk on the board. We manage our hand of tiles better to shoot for the endgame bonus. We create a tight board with more interlocking plays, akin to expert Scrabble players.

I happened to teach Qwirkle to a Scrabble fan recently, and although he's a smart guy, it was interesting to see him make sub-optimal plays similar to what other first-time players do. He was blessed with multiple hands that had four matching tiles, but he made long, spidery rows for few points rather than sit on the tiles and build toward larger scores. Despite his awesome draws, I beat him because I knew the game better and outplayed him.

Obviously not every game is right for every person. For any given title, you'll find people who think it plays too quickly or drags or is too luck-based or has a rich-get-richer syndrome or benefits the player to the left of the new guy or any of a dozen other problems. But the problems aren't always inherent to the game; perhaps the game just doesn't suit your tastes.

Another possibility, and the one that seems the most probable given my experience, is that you're not willing to give the game a chance to reshape your tastes...

What I've learned from these and other experiences is that I'm a poor judge of what I like. That might seem like a ridiculous statement – after all, who else should be able to judge your tastes better than you? – but I've seen it proved again and again with television shows that I initially found unwatchable, books that at first seemed tedious, food that I couldn't stomach, and so on.

So why should I dump on a game that I've played only once or twice? I know that I haven't seen all the game has to offer, so I try to keep that in mind when writing about it. That doesn't mean that when a game hits you the wrong way or leaves you shrugging your shoulder you need to build a long-term relationship with it. No one is forcing you to play a game repeatedly until you learn to love it or throw yourself, Alex-like, through a window to escape your misery. Just keep in mind that the game might not be the problem. The problem might be you.

[From a Dec. 2008 BGN column]

I'm past a hundred plays of this simple game... Qwirkle has become a comfort food game by this point: Still fun and still played with an eye toward clever plays, with the enjoyment of the game overriding any concerns of winning or losing.

superflypete wrote:
This just proves how utterly useless and absurd this awards deal is. Qwirkle? Really? Give me a bloody break.

How about "This just proves how utterly useless and absurd this awards deal is for me"? You might not like the game, but perhaps my absurdly long post has given you and others an alternative point of view and a possible appreciation of what the game does hold for those who care to look.

If nothing else, at least you spelled the name of the game correctly!
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:01 am
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disclamer wrote:
Just keep in mind that if you think you know better than the SdJ jury what makes a good SdJ Award winner, you're wrong.

Well, I guess that settles that. zombie

disclamer wrote:
I'm speculating here, but I'd be willing to bet that the SdJ jury doesn't get on their forum and decry the Golden Geek Award as worthless because the users of BGG didn't pick the jury's favorite game.

So what if they did? More power to them to do so for all I care. Just like when I have neighbors over for dinner we discuss news topics that are likely of interest to both parties, when BGG posts news topics, people here discuss them.

disclamer wrote:
What I'm saying is, arguments about which game is "better" or which game you prefer or which game you would have liked to see win are totally valid. Arguments about which game should rightly have won the SdJ or which game the jury should have chosen are ill-conceived because you do not have the cultural grounding or the jury's insight and instruction to make that judgment.

It's a fine line.

I don't think there's a line at all. It's just slightly different words used to convey the same meaning.

If your intent is to treat language like math (heaven help you), then statements like "Game X should have won" have no meaning whatsoever. The award is merely the collective opinion of a dozen or so game critics. Nothing more. So by definition the only game that should win is the game that does win. Unless there's a vote counting error.
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:06 am
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I mean really, shouldnt have Forbidden Island won this years award instead of Qwirkle.
I have never played either game but FI was so loved this past year or so.
I mean Qwirkle gets lost in the other abstracts like Blokus, Hive, Quarto, Pentago and Quoridor. These are games I pick up at the thrift stores. Not a game I would pay real money for like most of the winners in years past.
I will tend to want a game with a theme to pay the big bucks for.
But not everyone is going to agree..which is ok.
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:17 am
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This just proves how utterly useless and absurd this awards deal is.


This discussion reveals far more about at least some BGG members more than it reveals anything about the SDJ.
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:35 am
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Thanks Eric for encouraging me to try Qwirkle again. Great post.

At first I was shocked by the announcement (expected a win for Matt as a "legacy win" if nothing else), but after a while I thought, "Crap, I had better try Qwirkle again," as I'd only played once.

Keltis is a great comparison. Horribly underrated game. Also shows precedent. To those complaining and swearing off any importance of the SdJ, 2008 wasn't that long ago. Considering the ease of play for Zooloretto, Keltis, Dixit, even Dominion... the "new" direction of the award should be less surprising than it was, in retrospect.

Sounds like most who played Qwirkle only a few times just got to the equivalent of the point in Dominion where you realize you shouldn't buy Coppers.
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W Eric Martin wrote:
superflypete wrote:
This just proves how utterly useless and absurd this awards deal is. Qwirkle? Really? Give me a bloody break.

How about "This just proves how utterly useless and absurd this awards deal is for me"? You might not like the game, but perhaps my absurdly long post has given you and others an alternative point of view and a possible appreciation of what the game does hold for those who care to look.

If nothing else, at least you spelled the name of the game correctly!


Eric, I respect your opinion far more than most, but this is seriously jacked up. I read your absurdly long post, and I get your point, but I disagree. It's not that Qwirkle is bad or something, I just don't see it nearly passing the bar for SdJ. Not remotely. There's a bunch of games out there (even in a year that has some pretty slim pickings) that are more innovative, interesting, and dare I say it, FUN.

I guess I just long for a time that games used to be fun. Nowadays the definition of a boardgame is "pastime that has no theme, some interesting move optimization decisions, and can be played by adults in a coffeeshop while discussing trig equations."

Bollocks.
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:22 am
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What I've learned from these and other experiences is that I'm a poor judge of what I like. That might seem like a ridiculous statement – after all, who else should be able to judge your tastes better than you? – but I've seen it proved again and again with television shows that I initially found unwatchable, books that at first seemed tedious, food that I couldn't stomach, and so on.

So why should I dump on a game that I've played only once or twice? I know that I haven't seen all the game has to offer, so I try to keep that in mind when writing about it. That doesn't mean that when a game hits you the wrong way or leaves you shrugging your shoulder you need to build a long-term relationship with it. No one is forcing you to play a game repeatedly until you learn to love it or throw yourself, Alex-like, through a window to escape your misery. Just keep in mind that the game might not be the problem. The problem might be you.


QFT. And Eric is the one who taught me this firsthand!

Really didn't like Lords of Vegas when he first taught it to me. Not only did I learn to love the game, it opened my mind to other games that I would have otherwise missed. I never gave Acquire a second thought until I realized that Lords was an economic game that used some of the same mechanics. I was eager to learn and play Acquire, a game that I had ignored, because I gave Lords a second shot to win me over. And it is has gone onward from there to other great games.

It is with this same spirit that I'm forcing myself to play Innovation and Louis XIV when I get the chance.

I consider Eric's argument - something that I can see he uses in real life when he plays - to be one of the most valuable lessons I've learned since getting heavily involved in this hobby. I hope others are open to this way of thinking because there is much to gain and very little to lose.

I will now humbly admit that I have taken Qwirkle off my for trade list. For now. I'll give the game a couple more shots.
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:37 am
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I guess I just long for a time that games used to be fun. Nowadays the definition of a boardgame is "pastime that has no theme, some interesting move optimization decisions, and can be played by adults in a coffeeshop while discussing trig equations."


This is one of the most hyperbolic comments I've seen on BGG let alone this thread!

Yeah, the good ol' days. All the games these days suck. whistle
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  • Edited Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:46 am
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superflypete wrote:
I guess I just long for a time that games used to be fun. Nowadays the definition of a boardgame is "pastime that has no theme, some interesting move optimization decisions, and can be played by adults in a coffeeshop while discussing trig equations."


Coincidentally, in the message below yours, Patrick C. talks about learning to love Lords of Vegas at Casa Martin, and LoV is the antithesis of your description. If a German version appears at some point, I could easily see the game as a SdJ nominee because it features the "selling points" covered in my dismayingly long post:

• Short rules.
• Short playing time.
• Level playing field.

The only recent games I've enjoyed more than Lords of Vegas are 7 Wonders and Innovation, which I played seven times on my final game day in Concord. Sweet mother of Anthony Hopkins, how I love that game!

As for "passing the bar for SdJ", I've taught Qwirkle to both my mother and my mother-in-law (at separate times), with them both enjoying the game and wanting to play again. You probably haven't played games with these ladies, but that's the target audience for the SdJ.

I don't know where you've seen any such definition of a board game like the one you describe. Hundreds of games are released each year, and they're all over the place in terms of theme, mechanisms, interaction, joie de vivre, and so on. You seem to be focusing on a style of game you don't like instead of spending time thinking about those that match your mood. Dozens – nay, hundreds – of those games might not appeal to me, but so what? With those three games above available at my table, I'm happy.

And those trig equations don't discuss themselves, y'know!
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:23 am
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Maybe this is a good time to clarify some things about the jury SdJ, because apparently some geeks here have no real idea about how these guys work.

First of all: the members of the jury SdJ are more or less the same type of gaming enthusiasts as many BGG users. They all have years of profound experience with all kinds of games, they all have shelves and shelves full of game boxes and they all love gaming as much as we do. The only thing which makes them a tiny little bit special is the fact, that they are reviewers who profesionally publish game reviews on a regular basis. If an SdJ-type award would be formed in the US, people like Tom Vasel or Jeremy Salinas (aka Drakkenstrike) would probably qualify perfectly.

Second: The guys in the jury have different tastes just as in this community. Some like heavier games like Burgen von Burgund, some like it a little bit lighter. Some like worker placement, some like auction mechanisms. Some like cooperative games, some not. And so on. The SdJ candidates are not just declared and thats it. The selection of the candidates and the selecion of the SdJ is a democratic, iterative process with many pre-evaluations and discussions going on. And of course, each member of the jury wants to see his or her favorite title being nominated.

Third: The SdJ is a non-profit organization. They get money from the publishers, paid for printing the SdJ logo on the boxes. but the jury is by law not allowed to generate profit from this income. They use the money to cover their costs as for example for producting information videos or travel costs for their sessions but mostly the money is taken to fund gaming related PR activities etc. So as a matter of fact, no SdJ jury member gains significant personal adavantage from being in the jury (other then getting a few games for free and being insulted in online communities)

Fourth: The entire idea of the SdJ is to bring good games to the masses. It has never been and will never be an award for geeks (and this is what many self-appointed experts will probably never understand). When selecting the SdJ, three key questions follow from the idea above:

1. Is the game good?
2. Is it suitable for the masses?
3. Can it be brought to the masses?

These three criteria directly translate to:

1. The SdJ must be a considered a "good" game by the jury members (which is difficult because they all have different tastes). And everyone who for example complains about 7 Wonders having no strategical depth should take into account that "good" is a term with very different implications depending on whether you're either a gaming-geek-god or 67-year-old grandma Schmidt.

2. The SdJ must have rules which can be learned by an average high school kid or family father without any external help (probably in less than 10-15 minutes). This is also difficult because we cannot know for sure, how easy a game can be learned by the average Joe.

3. The SdJ must be available from a big publisher who is able to deliver tens of thousands of games in a short period of time without problems.


When we take all this into account we can easily see that the one "Spiel des Jahres" does not exist. Its always a result of discussions, preferences and different tastes. If the SdJ would be selected by members of this forum, the result would lead to the same comments as ever: some would like it, some would prefer something more complex, some would like it easier.

My advice: any discussion about the SdJ would probably be much less heated if we ask the right question which is not "Do *I* like the SdJ?" but more "Is the SdJ a good game for an average non-gamer?"
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  • Edited Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:25 am
  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:24 am
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I should dig up the podcast where I said Qwirkle was the sleeper hit of the year.

I have had a lot of fun with Qwirkle over the years. It hits that sweet spot of gaming. It gives you the feeling that your decisions matter, it has the Pringles effect of "just one more try to get a better score", and it has the chunky bits and tactile feel when you slam down a piece and exclaim "Qwirkle!"

I have a feeling that Asara and 7 Wonders should have switched places, and if they did... I think 7 Wonders would have reigned.

I wouldn't be able to fathom what would have won the Kennerspiel, since I've only played Asara... which left me a little bit cold, but I can see why people would like it.
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:30 am
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superflypete wrote:

I guess I just long for a time that games used to be fun. Nowadays the definition of a boardgame is "pastime that has no theme, some interesting move optimization decisions, and can be played by adults in a coffeeshop while discussing trig equations."Bollocks.


You're jaded already?
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:32 am
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DaviddesJ wrote:
It's fair to ask, if you are creating a special award for "connoisseur" games, are you paying any attention to what the connoisseurs like? And the answer is clearly no.

Do you count BGG as a representative sample of connoisseurs? Because 7 Wonders is the top 2010 game on the BGG Overall ranking. It's also the top-ranked 2010 game on the "Strategy Games" BGG list, and the #1 game on the "Family Games" BGG list.

I'd say they hit it spot on with their selection, agreeing precisely with what connoisseurs say is the top game of 2010.
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  • Edited Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:47 am
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curtc wrote:
HilkMAN wrote:
Dixit was a weird choice for me, as I found it un-original and not too good at what it delivered compared to other games with a similar concept. But for last year, it was a more logical choice than, say, Fresco, because it had a new concept compared to previous winners. Whereas Fresco was just a reasonably good game.

So I do think that the average casual buyer will appreciate something new every year (within a limit). It has been a long-standing tradition and it has worked so far.

What is Qwirkle's new concept that elevates it above "just a reasonably good game"?


As others have stated above: The first abstract in years, for instance? Someone else has said (sorry, didn't find the posting immediately) s/he wouldn't like to pay serious money for an abstract. Exactly. Now people will.
Also, the game has been available for a few years already, and has been popular. That also hasn't been the case recently (Heimlich & Co comes to mind, 25 years ago).

Quote:


HilkMAN wrote:
a) I don't see any reason for disappointment for the target audience of the awards this year. At all. And I am saying this without having played either of them.

Ok. Some people, however, do see reasons. They're above. If you've read them, and would like to share a reason why you disagree, that would be wonderful.


The last time people were disappointed (sales-wise) with a SdJ was what, Villa Paletti?
Even Keltis, which practically all of my friends hated or at least thought was a bad choice for Spiel des Jahres, hasn't done badly at all.
Quote:


HilkMAN wrote:
...I am reasonably sure that there will be an increase in overall sales of games.

I suspect so as well. But again, I don't think anyone is arguing against that. You seem to be saying, "hey people, no matter who wins, SdJ is good for the industry." And I haven't seen anyone disagree with that. That's just not what we're discussing.

I just hardly read any serious reasons why these games shouldn't be good choices. There have been a lot of "I don't like it because...", but no "It's not going to be popular because..." (sorry if I missed anything, it's a long thread).
One poster said "I miss the fun that used to come with games; Qwirkle is not fun for me" (quoted from memory). That is a valid point, of course, and it might easily turn me away from a game. But that is just me, and I am not the target audience at all. I don't find Blokus particularly fun, for example, and yet it is very popular.
The only broader argument against Qwirkle is that it is difficult to play for color-blind people. I cannot personally judge that well, but it is the one argument that looks beyond a personal perspective (in my opinion).
Quote:


HilkMAN wrote:
curtc wrote:
HilkMAN wrote:
As a conclusion, I think the new award is a brilliant plan, no matter which games get the awards.

I don't think the issue people have been raising is about the plan.

I did mean "the plan and how it has been executed".

I can't quite parse what you're saying there. Are you saying the plan is brilliant, and it has been executed brilliantly? Or something else? If the former, then what part of the execution did you find brilliant, given that you haven't played the winning games?


I can only begin to imagine this thread if there had only been one SdJ winner this year - Qwirkle. Within seconds, half of the bgg users would have lamented how 7 wonders would have been the better choice, what were they thinking, they would never look at a SdJ again, etc. Call it lack of decision-making on their part, but the jury chose a way of promoting an obvious choice (7 wonders - predicted to win by practically everyone) without losing an audience which is more important to them than the informed specialists typically commenting on a thread like this. So yes, I find those to be good choices without knowing the games, particularly in this year when 7 wonders was set to win.
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  • Edited Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:55 am
  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:59 am
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drazkor wrote:
Why do you like Qwirkle?


I don't know what's not to like about Qwirkle. In fact, I don't understand why people seem to be so Anti-Qwirkle! It's colourful, has nice wooden pieces that easily stand on their own (don't need a rack like in Rummikub), has high replayability and rules are very simple. Those aspects make for a great family game. I haven't met a (non)gamer that doesn't like this game!!! (despite the fact that it's an abstract game).
Just take a look at this image!


Qwirkle has my blessing
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  • Edited Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:57 pm
  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:20 am
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I don't understand why there's so much argument/disscussion regading the SdJ.

I just another award, there's loads of them for lots different things (music, films, books, etc)I can't say that any of them reflect my taste.

I'm not that bothered what game wins the SdJ as I didn't really like any of them, I still play lots of games I do like. Same with movies, not much I like wins an Oscar, so what. What about the Grammy's/Brits/Mercury prize? I'm not a fan of anything that's won so far, but I still buy and enjoy music.

None of these awards cater for my tastes, I don't feel the need to have my choices proved right.

I know, as a solution lets choose one game that everyone thinks should win a prize as the best game of the year - it's impossible.

 
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Aldie wrote:
superflypete wrote:

I guess I just long for a time that games used to be fun. Nowadays the definition of a boardgame is "pastime that has no theme, some interesting move optimization decisions, and can be played by adults in a coffeeshop while discussing trig equations."Bollocks.


You're jaded already?


Obviously you haven't met Pete...laugh
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:25 am
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The Right Honourable Gentleman from Scratchy Bottom, near Durdle Door, Dorset tables a parliamentary motion that
the SDJ is ALL ABOUT REACHING THE AVERAGE NON-GAMER SO GET OVER IT.

As such, the criteria has been met by Qwirkle as deemed by the jury.

Quote:
1. Is the game good?
2. Is it suitable for the masses?
3. Can it be brought to the masses?

These three criteria directly translate to:

1. The SdJ must be a considered a "good" game by the jury members (which is difficult because they all have different tastes). And everyone who for example complains about 7 Wonders having no strategical depth should take into account that "good" is a term with very different implications depending on whether you're either a gaming-geek-god or 67-year-old grandma Schmidt.

2. The SdJ must have rules which can be learned by an average high school kid or family father without any external help (probably in less than 10-15 minutes). This is also difficult because we cannot know for sure, how easy a game can be learned by the average Joe.

3. The SdJ must be available from a big publisher who is able to deliver tens of thousands of games in a short period of time without problems.


This has been seconded by the Right Honourable Gentleman from Great Snoring, near Walsingham, Norfolk

All in favour say aye....



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Spiel des Jahres 2011 - The Winners
 
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Now, Spiel des Jahres couldn't be more irrelevant to me, but calling 7 Wonders a game for experienced gamers?
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Asur wrote:
Now, Spiel des Jahres couldn't be more irrelevant to me, but calling 7 Wonders a game for experienced gamers?

Yes.
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mrivera wrote:

the SDJ is ALL ABOUT REACHING THE AVERAGE NON-GAMER SO GET OVER IT.

All in favour say aye....

Aye!


(Signed Gerald Brook-Hampster of Kensington and Weybridge - upper class gaming twit of the year 1987)
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Family gamer weighing in here. We've played both Qwirkle and Forbidden Island, and in our house, Qwirkle is the clear winner. Its one of the VERY few games my non-gamer husband will actually request! My kids and I would gladly play either one when it's just the three of us, but when my husband joins us, Qwirkle will be the one to hit the table. Haven't yet tried either one with my non-gamer parents, but given my past gaming experiences with them, Qwirkle would again win easily.

So, while I understand the love for Forbidden Island, I'm pretty surprised to see the irritation over Qwirkle's win. Perhaps my family falls squarely into the target audience for the SdJ -- we think Qwirkle was an excellent choice!
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Another year of fighting over the German game of the year. I liked Qwirkle. 2 years ago. But congrats on the designer for increased sales.
The German game of the year is as relevant to me as the rankings on this site.
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Funguy wrote:


Yes Susan is the first solo woman designer of a game.

There have been two other woman:
Suzanne Goldberg for Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective in 1985

Dorothy Garrels for Scotland Yard in 1983.

While both of those were shared awards with other designers, Susan is the first solo designer.


Karen Seyfarth also co-designed SdJ winner "Thurn und Taxis".
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W Eric Martin wrote:

True, but I don't think tornspace (and travvller in this post) are trying to shut people up. Rather they're highlighting the futility of members of a select audience (i.e., BGG users) protesting an award aimed at a mass audience – futility in the sense of yelling into the storm as the BGG readership is small potatoes relative to the scale of the worldwide game market.



Do we have something better to do?

This is BGG, it's a like a giant superbowl party where people loves the Packers. And when the other team wins, we like to moan and groan about how lame the refs were.

But that's OK, it's our party, and we'll cry if we want to.

travvller is like that one friend that comes sporting a Jets jersey with green and white face paint, sitting in the back of the room telling everyone at our superbowl party that it's futile for complaining. And we should all be happy for the Jets. Pffft....

Everybody hates that guy at the party!
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KissaTaikuri wrote:
Troymk1 wrote:
Just to kibbutz a little. I actually don't think 7 Wonders is that light! (but I agree it can be played lightly)



LOL laughlaughlaugh Kibbutz is a collective. You mean Kibbitz. ...and 7 wonders is certainly light fare.


Perhaps I am a collective intelligence. A Hive mind.

It would explain much!

I have played some crazy number of games of 7 Wonders now on JSP and in person. I was surprised to note that there was much more strategy involved than I at first thought.




 
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I don't understand all the griping about complex games being the "victim" of the Spiel des Jahres and its casual-gamer-oriented picks. If anything, there seem to be many more complex games being produced every year--many more than any of us can ever find time to play.

Who produces these games? Usually smaller, independent publishers.

Who has produced the Spiel des Jahres winner for the past 3 years? Originally, small, independent publishers who later sold the rights to larger publishers for distribution in Germany.

And furthermore, for those in the U.S. who do not think this award has any relevance on their corner of the hobby--2 of those winners were originally produced by small, independent publishers from the United States.
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It's sad to think that family gaming is now reduced to only games that can be taught in 5 minutes, and played in 15. I'm saddened to think that now the industry has reduced my "family" to the mentality of gnats on crack.

I thought games like Puerto Rico, Torres, and Tikal WERE family games.

Thanks for dumbing it down SdJ.

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MWChapel wrote:
Thanks for dumbing it down SdJ.

cry cry cry
Please, please, please: Which part of "You are not part of the SdJ target group" do you not understand?

Furthermore I'd like you to try the following: Take Puerto Rico, give it to some groups of average US high school kids and leave them alone with the game. Come back after 1 hour. Check the result. Re-iterate with Tikal, Dominion, Torres. Report here.

Thank you.

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gruescher wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
Thanks for dumbing it down SdJ.

cry cry cry
Please, please, please: Which part of "You are not part of the SdJ target group" do you not understand?

Furthermore I'd like you to try the following: Take Puerto Rico, give it to some groups of average US high school kids and leave them alone with the game. Come back after 1 hour. Check the result. Re-iterate with Tikal, Dominion, Torres. Report here.

Thank you.



Pffft...Easily. I've played all of those games with teens and kids as young as 11. No problem. They love it. These are average kids, and they like playing all kinds of games I bring. Try again.

I'm not sure what "target group" you're talking about. I guess if by "average" you mean underachieving slacker drop outs stuck to an xbox all day, then that is a weird demographic to target.

Plus two of those games ARE SdJ winners.
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gruescher wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
Thanks for dumbing it down SdJ.

cry cry cry
Please, please, please: Which part of "You are not part of the SdJ target group" do you not understand?

Furthermore I'd like you to try the following: Take Puerto Rico, give it to some groups of average US high school kids and leave them alone with the game. Come back after 1 hour. Check the result. Re-iterate with Tikal, Dominion, Torres. Report here.

Thank you.


Sorry but my friend uses three of those games for his high school classes and many of the students are able to teach themselves. I suspect this is also the case in Deutschland and the surrounding EU nations. I have a twelve year old cousin who loves Tikal and I play with him and his sister. They are really good at the game too. So I highly disagree with you that they are too complex. Students/young kids are generally as smart as you expect them to be.
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Quote:
I guess if by "average" you mean underachieving slacker drop outs stuck to an xbox all day
shake

I refer the right honourable gentleman to the answer I gave previously -the SDJ is ALL ABOUT REACHING THE AVERAGE NON-GAMER SO GET OVER IT

This is about accessability and attractiveness as an entry point into the hobby. I assume you didn't toss a copy of Puerto Rico, Tikal, Dominion, Torres onto the table with those teenagers and let them get on with it. You probably taught or at least guided them as most of us would do.

Its not about intellect but making it easy to enter the hobby without having to be concerned about the challenge of learning it. Most non-gamers I know are put off with having to work through rules they are unfamiliar with. They aren't invested in ganmes yet. If the SDJ winner gets them to get off their butts and do it themselves due to ease of use, I say that is awesome.

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MWChapel wrote:
Plus two of those games ARE SdJ winners.


Actually three of them are. And the 4th was a nominee/finalist.
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jeffinberlin wrote:
I don't understand all the griping about complex games being the "victim" of the Spiel des Jahres and its casual-gamer-oriented picks. If anything, there seem to be many more complex games being produced every year--many more than any of us can ever find time to play.

Who produces these games? Usually smaller, independent publishers.

Who has produced the Spiel des Jahres winner for the past 3 years? Originally, small, independent publishers who later sold the rights to larger publishers for distribution in Germany.

And furthermore, for those in the U.S. who do not think this award has any relevance on their corner of the hobby--2 of those winners were originally produced by small, independent publishers from the United States.


Most of us on BGG recognize how important the Spiel awards are in the U.S. Just look at the Dixit U.S. sales numbers and it is easy to see they really matter! We also recognize that active posting BGG users are a very small representation of the total gaming whole. Neither one of those facts change whether or not I like the results of the Spiel awards. I expected both games to win because they fit in the recent Spiel mold. If I owned a gamestore in the United States, I would buy as many copies of the two games as I could. I just think there are better games, and don't see how stating that is a problem. I really doubt the Spiel people care and further I am sure they expect it...and perhaps want it because after all negative press is still press.
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mrivera wrote:

This is about accessability and attractiveness as an entry point into the hobby. I assume you didn't toss a copy of Puerto Rico, Tikal, Dominion, Torres onto the table with those teenagers and let them get on with it.


That is exactly what I did. No, I didn't put LCR on the table and said here's a nice easy game to get you started. Because I know they are more sophisticated than that and would probably get bored out of their minds. I took games like Tikal and sat down with a group of them and said, you want to play a really cool game? And they ate it up.

These are kids that know abstract ideas, they are reading full sized novels, they can build internet websites. These are kids that play complex puzzle/rpg games on the Nintendo DS. These kids aren't simpletons. Shoot, my 2 year old can pick up an iPad, start it up, find his favorite puzzle and memory games, and complete them without any help....For gods sake, he just turned 2!

You treat kids like simpletons, and you will alienate them. And then wonder why most "family" games of today languish dusty on shelves. WHY, because they aren't challenging, they're boring.

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MWChapel wrote:
gruescher wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
Thanks for dumbing it down SdJ.

cry cry cry
Please, please, please: Which part of "You are not part of the SdJ target group" do you not understand?

Furthermore I'd like you to try the following: Take Puerto Rico, give it to some groups of average US high school kids and leave them alone with the game. Come back after 1 hour. Check the result. Re-iterate with Tikal, Dominion, Torres. Report here.

Thank you.



Pffft...Easily. I've played all of those games with teens and kids as young as 11. No problem. They love it. These are average kids, and they like playing all kinds of games I bring. Try again.

I'm not sure what "target group" you're talking about. I guess if by "average" you mean underachieving slacker drop outs stuck to an xbox all day, then that is a weird demographic to target.

Plus two of those games ARE SdJ winners.


I think Gerald's point is that YOU taught the games to kids who you normally play games with.

The biggest hurdle to the popularity of new games is learning the rules. Only a few of us actually enjoy studying rules booklets to new games so that we can teach them to others. The decline of the local game store with an informed staff who know the games and their rules has much more to do with the "dumbing down" of boardgames than the SdJ selections. Perhaps video tutorials and word-of-mouth "sharing" via Facebook can make up for some of this, but most people who buy the Spiel des Jahres game each year do not have a local game store or group to teach them the game, and therefore need to learn the rules for themselves. And, unfortunately, most stores who sell the winning game will still not have anyone on staff who has actually played it.

From a designer's perspective, however, I admire games with short, elegant rules. And, to be honest, there are quite a few so-called gamer's games that are simply made from piling layers upon layers of complexity--that is a more worrisome trend to me than games that are short, simple and more accessible.

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I was researching prior SDJ winners and nominees and came across this comment from 2006 from BGG member Minok who was frustrated with all the criticisms the award was receiving:

People, SdJ is NOT about what YOUR favorite game is.

It is about what the jury thinks the best family game in Germany is.

It is thier award, they get to decide what the criteria are.


Some of the same comments made five years ago. Same complaints, same defense.

The comment above came from this geeklist.
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Same typo, so it must be true!

Aldie, thanks for that podcast back in the early days when you brought Qwirkle to our attention.
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jeffinberlin wrote:

The biggest hurdle to the popularity of new games is learning the rules. Only a few of us actually enjoy studying rules booklets to new games so that we can teach them to others.


I'm not sure about you, but I HATE learning new rules. But a great thing we had when we were kids were these creatures called "parents". They would take the time to sit down and explain how to play games. My dad taught me games like Axis and Allies, Chess, Pinocle, and a ton others, and he wasn't a gamer. That was just in his job description. And none of these games were very easy to teach. Puerto Rico rules vs. Axis and Allies rules...Man, these kids have it easy.

I'm not sure how it is today in modern families, but I don't think they buy family games, give them to the kids and say "figure it out on your own".
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MWChapel wrote:
mrivera wrote:

This is about accessability and attractiveness as an entry point into the hobby. I assume you didn't toss a copy of Puerto Rico, Tikal, Dominion, Torres onto the table with those teenagers and let them get on with it.


That is exactly what I did. No, I didn't put LCR on the table and said here's a nice easy game to get you started. Because I know they are more sophisticated than that and would probably get bored out of their minds. I took games like Tikal and sat down with a group of them and said, you want to play a really cool game? And they ate it up.

These are kids that know abstract ideas, they are reading full sized novels, they can build internet websites. These are kids that play complex puzzle/rpg games on the Nintendo DS. These kids aren't simpletons. Shoot, my 2 year old can pick up an iPad, start it up, find his favorite puzzle and memory games, and complete them without any help....For gods sake, he just turned 2!

You treat kids like simpletons, and you will alienate them. And then wonder why most "family" games of today languish dusty on shelves. WHY, because they aren't challenging, they're boring.



I wouldn't call someone a simpleton, simply because they do not want to play Puerto Rico. Heck, Eric Martin loved Qwirkle enough to name it HIS game of the year back in '06, and he'll be the first to demonstrate to you (as he did to the surprised German publisher) that skill and experience do count in that game.

It really is like learning a language. I was intimidated by German boardgames for years until friends taught me some of them. Now I read game rules (and write them) like I read the newspaper. I don't think I'm any smarter now--I just "know the language."
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MWChapel wrote:
jeffinberlin wrote:

The biggest hurdle to the popularity of new games is learning the rules. Only a few of us actually enjoy studying rules booklets to new games so that we can teach them to others.


I'm not sure about you, but I HATE learning new rules. But a great thing we had when we were kids were these creatures called "parents". They would take the time to sit down and explain how to play games.

Come on. Most "average" parents can't understand the rules to any game that has a rulebook longer than 4 pages. I've seen families bringing back Dominion to the shop saying "we don't get the rules - please explain them".
By the way, 11-year-olds can learn almost anything. Spiel des Jahres wants to serve 9-year-olds as well.
And yes, the biggest difference to your experience with Puerto Rico is that there was a gamer there - you - who explained the rules to the others. When it's about games nominated for the award you should imagine the average family who's played Pachisi and Monopoly before but nothing else. A game like 7 Wonders would be simply too hard for them to grasp, even if it's an easy and light game for us, gamers.
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W Eric Martin wrote:
superflypete wrote:
I guess I just long for a time that games used to be fun. Nowadays the definition of a boardgame is "pastime that has no theme, some interesting move optimization decisions, and can be played by adults in a coffeeshop while discussing trig equations."


Coincidentally, in the message below yours, Patrick C. talks about learning to love Lords of Vegas at Casa Martin, and LoV is the antithesis of your description. If a German version appears at some point, I could easily see the game as a SdJ nominee because it features the "selling points" covered in my dismayingly long post:

• Short rules.
• Short playing time.
• Level playing field.


The Redneck Life fits these critera. That, and it's more fun.
 
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MWChapel wrote:
mrivera wrote:

This is about accessability and attractiveness as an entry point into the hobby. I assume you didn't toss a copy of Puerto Rico, Tikal, Dominion, Torres onto the table with those teenagers and let them get on with it.


That is exactly what I did. No, I didn't put LCR on the table and said here's a nice easy game to get you started. Because I know they are more sophisticated than that and would probably get bored out of their minds. I took games like Tikal and sat down with a group of them and said, you want to play a really cool game? And they ate it up.

These are kids that know abstract ideas, they are reading full sized novels, they can build internet websites. These are kids that play complex puzzle/rpg games on the Nintendo DS. These kids aren't simpletons. Shoot, my 2 year old can pick up an iPad, start it up, find his favorite puzzle and memory games, and complete them without any help....For gods sake, he just turned 2!

You treat kids like simpletons, and you will alienate them. And then wonder why most "family" games of today languish dusty on shelves. WHY, because they aren't challenging, they're boring.



And so you come to the nub of the matter - parents. You are preaching to the choir here. This isn't about the kids as much as this is about families and this requires the parents to have the motivation, interest and time to sit down and play games with their kids. Sadly I don't know many at all who are prepared to do so other than the familiar old monopoly, etc, or defer to the Wii, let alone learn and teach a new game. Says a lot state of society and decay of the family which is a whole other discussion.

Which brings me back to the core principle of the SDJ which I think is about ease of entry into the hobby. Once you have newbies with the entry level, then the transition to more challenging games becomes easier. So its not about dumbing down it is about attracting more newbies and then transitioning them through. If that's the way to get those who aren't engaged interested, so be it. The payodff will come down the road.



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lacxox wrote:

And yes, the biggest difference to your experience with Puerto Rico is that there was a gamer there - you - who explained the rules to the others. When it's about games nominated for the award you should imagine the average family who's played Pachisi and Monopoly before but nothing else. A game like 7 Wonders would be simply too hard for them to grasp, even if it's an easy and light game for us, gamers.


Quote:
My dad taught me games like Axis and Allies, Chess, Pinocle, and a ton others, and he wasn't a gamer.


Maybe most of the parents I deal with are different than the parents you deal with?
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  • Edited Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:44 pm
  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:43 pm
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mrivera wrote:


Sadly I don't know many at all who are prepared to do so other than the familiar old monopoly, etc, or defer to the Wii, let alone learn and teach a new game. Says a lot state of society and decay of the family which is a whole other discussion.



And I agree. Parents shouldn't be shuffling their kids off to learn on their own, and hoping that the Wii will do all the work for them. That is entirely sad, and guess what? The SdJ is pandering to that ideal.

Again, I iterate. Thanks SdJ for dumbing down the award. thumbsup
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:48 pm
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To quote Oddball, "Cut it out with the negative waves"...

SdJ is for families, more specifically, German families, but families never the less. As others have noted, myself included, if you were to have families in the US from the general public sit down and play each of the three games, I believe their first choice would be Qwirkle, followed closely by Fobidden Island.

Why, one could ask?

Qwirkle has more eye candy appeal. (Blokus has the same affect)
The ruleset is easier than most games.
Among new players the game is simple and can be played simply.
Among more experienced players, the game can be more strategic with play that reflects that experience.

Just because you don't like the game, doesn't mean it wasn't deserving of the award. I could say the same thing about a number of past SdJ winners, but I don't bemoan the fact that they won. Look past your likes and dislikes and see the game for what the SdJ jury does and for what the public at large sees as well. And then remember that the majorify of the BGG community is NOT the public at large.

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I can cite instances similar to your experience with young kids and teens, but not so much with "families". I have a lot of years of experience of playing games with families. It's the adults that take longer to learn the concepts of a game, not the kids.

For example, at the last Family Game Night a mother of two kids ages 5 and 6 didn't think there were any games her kids would be able to play let alone understand, I pulled out Surprise!, which is a sort of memory game with a nice twist. The kids caught on right away and it was the mom who was left trying to to figure it out until a few turns into the game.

I have a dozen or more stories with similar result, 8 and 9 year olds playing Hare and Tortise (the first SdJ winner), while their parents could only watch in disbelief as the kids figured out the process of going backwards in order to go forward. Kids don't have preconceived notions of what constitutes a game. Adults do.

Is Suprise! a game I would want to play with adults, no... But it is perfect for the audience it was intended for just as Qwirkle was a great choice for SdJ and the audience the SdJ Jury was looking out for.
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:49 pm
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Patrick C.
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It's amazing how much of this debate is like politics. The converted always want a purist action plan that ignores the ultimate goal of winning. In this case, winning=expand board gaming. You don't win by slamming people over the head with games that overwhelm and cause them to run away in fear.

The intent of the SDJ has been made clear. It's not even an American award, it's German, based on German criteria, wants and needs. Sheesh.
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:58 pm
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Zaphod wrote:
Well, its not as bad as Back to the Future winning card game of the year (I'm looking at you Origins).


Too bad Origins is fan voted. So the real answer here is:

"I'm looking at you Gaming Community that is not BGG"
 
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I can cite instances similar to your experience with young kids and teens, but not so much with "families". I have a lot of years of experience of playing games with families. It's the adults that take longer to learn the concepts of a game, not the kids.

For example, at the last Family Game Night a mother of two kids ages 5 and 6 didn't think there were any games her kids would be able to play let alone understand, I pulled out Surprise!, which is a sort of memory game with a nice twist. The kids caught on right away and it was the mom who was left trying to to figure it out until a few turns into the game.

I have a dozen or more stories with similar result, 8 and 9 year olds playing Hare and Tortise (the first SdJ winner), while their parents could only watch in disbelief as the kids figured out the process of going backwards in order to go forward. Kids don't have preconceived notions of what constitutes a game. Adults do.

Is Suprise! a game I would want to play with adults, no... But it is perfect for the audience it was intended for just as Qwirkle was a great choice for SdJ and the audience the SdJ Jury was looking out for.


This is so sad. Now we are down to Kids are smart and receptive, gamers are smart and receptive, and now it's average parents that are lazy, uncomprehending and non-receptive.

Every road in this argument always leads to SdJ("The Game of the Year") is pandering to the lowest common denominator, the weakest link.

Now it's SdJ, the training wheels for dumb parents.

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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:02 pm
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MWChapel wrote:

Pffft...Easily. I've played all of those games with teens and kids as young as 11. No problem.

Yeah, yeah, average 11 y/o kids teaching themselves Puerto Rico.
I give up. You win. I acknowledge and admire your and your families intellectual superiority. SdJ sucks. Let's move on.

Sheesh.
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:07 pm
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gruescher wrote:
MWChapel wrote:

Pffft...Easily. I've played all of those games with teens and kids as young as 11. No problem.

Yeah, yeah, average 11 y/o kids teaching themselves Puerto Rico.
I give up. You win. I acknowledge and admire your and your families intellectual superiority. SdJ sucks. Let's move on.

Sheesh.


If you are going to come in here and defend the SdJ, then have some muscle to back it up! If you want to battle it out with drive by passive aggressive snippets, well I am really good at those.

But I don't accept any of these as valid points.

1. The SdJ is not for you.
2. German families are different than American families, and therefore you can't argue it.
3. The SdJ "The Game of the Year" is actually a gateway game into the hobby.

I don't agree with ANY of those points. All three of them are complete and utter cop outs.

You want the BEST family game, then pick the BEST, not the path of least resistance.
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:14 pm
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mrivera wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
mrivera wrote:

This is about accessability and attractiveness as an entry point into the hobby. I assume you didn't toss a copy of Puerto Rico, Tikal, Dominion, Torres onto the table with those teenagers and let them get on with it.


That is exactly what I did. No, I didn't put LCR on the table and said here's a nice easy game to get you started. Because I know they are more sophisticated than that and would probably get bored out of their minds. I took games like Tikal and sat down with a group of them and said, you want to play a really cool game? And they ate it up.

These are kids that know abstract ideas, they are reading full sized novels, they can build internet websites. These are kids that play complex puzzle/rpg games on the Nintendo DS. These kids aren't simpletons. Shoot, my 2 year old can pick up an iPad, start it up, find his favorite puzzle and memory games, and complete them without any help....For gods sake, he just turned 2!

You treat kids like simpletons, and you will alienate them. And then wonder why most "family" games of today languish dusty on shelves. WHY, because they aren't challenging, they're boring.



Which brings me back to the core principle of the SDJ which I think is about ease of entry into the hobby. Once you have newbies with the entry level, then the transition to more challenging games becomes easier. So its not about dumbing down it is about attracting more newbies and then transitioning them through.


I have no problem with the SdJ win for Qwirkle.

I think the Kennerspiel (what abbreviation are we supposed to use for this as KdJ could also mean Kinderspiel des Jahres) might have gone to something else - although 7 Wonders is the only game I have played on their nominees list. It depends just how much the jury wants to use it to encourage that transitioning you talk about. But then the award is still finding its feet. I think we will need a couple more years to see if it is really trying for that niche.

I would probably prefer a different jury for the Kennerspiel des Jahres to the main award (just like the Kinderspiel prize does) but that is a minor point and there maybe difficulty in finding appropriate jurors.
 
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:15 pm
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Sounds strange that a game released in 2006 got the 2011 SDJ...
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:44 pm
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MWChapel wrote:
You want the BEST family game, then pick the BEST, not the path of least resistance.


I'm pretty sure "BEST family game" is not in the SdJ criteria, but I haven't looked it up.

Like all the other SdJ-haters, you have a SdJ criteria that doesn't match the SdJ jury's.
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  • Edited Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:56 pm
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MWChapel wrote:
You want the BEST family game, then pick the BEST, not the path of least resistance.


I would argue that Qwirkle is the best family game released in Germany during the nomination period based on all that I wrote in the lamentably long post above.

Simple ≠ dumb or aimed at the lowest common denominator as you yourself know from your experience with a two-year-old son that does lots of things on an iPad. My son is two-and-a-half and does all those same things: opening movies, choosing scenes that he wants, using the camera, looking through photos, and so on. The iPad is incredibly simple to use due to its wonderful design, not due to it being aimed at simpletons and toddlers – or even simpleton toddlers.

The fantastic design of the iPad is a benefit to all who try to use it, yet those who have more knowledge about the device – for example, knowing which apps to download for which purposes in their life – get more out of it. I know how to add more movies to the iPad, for example; my son doesn't. Similarly, my experience with Qwirkle and general gaming background will allow me to play better than someone playing the game for the first time, yet we'll all get something out of the game and (if experience is any guide) come back for more.
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:57 pm
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W Eric Martin wrote:
The iPad is incredibly simple to use due to its wonderful design, not due to it being aimed at simpletons and toddlers or even simpleton toddlers.


That is a debate for another time.

Posted from Android-2.3.4
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:13 pm
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MWChapel wrote:
You want the BEST family game, then pick the BEST, not the path of least resistance.

So which family are you talking about? The family of gamers (probably one thousandth of the population)? The families that can grasp the rules of Puerto Rico easily (maybe some percent of the population)? Or the rest (surely more than 95% of the families)? Why are you so short-sighted and/or selfish that you think the game that is BEST for you would be BEST for the 95%???
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  • Edited Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:26 pm
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lacxox wrote:
Why are you so short-sighted and/or selfish that you think the game that is BEST for you would be BEST for the 95%???


Pull another useless percentage stat out of your ass why don't you?
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:27 pm
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As a game, qwirkle is one I would specifically not introduce to newbies because I wouldn't want to put a bad taste in their mouth about playing board games. SDJ has selected some great games in the past(el grande, ticket to ride), but like with villa palletti, they whiffed big time this year.

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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:35 pm
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Bacchus wrote:
For example, at the last Family Game Night a mother of two kids ages 5 and 6 didn't think there were any games her kids would be able to play let alone understand, I pulled out Surprise!, which is a sort of memory game with a nice twist. The kids caught on right away and it was the mom who was left trying to to figure it out until a few turns into the game.
I've experienced this same thing... where I'm trying to let a parent know that their kid IS smart enough to play a game. And, sure enough, it always works out and the kid does fine. I'm not sure why us parents are so keen to put up barriers for what we think our children can do.

I own and have played Qwirkle a few times with my kids. Seems like a game I should like and I don't like it. I'll try it once with an adult or two.

I've noticed that I appreciate the SdJ choices less and less as time goes on, but that may just be because I am turning into more and more of a gamer. It is what it is and that's fine... I'm just not caring to pay as much attention to it as I once did.
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:38 pm
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MWChapel wrote:
lacxox wrote:
Why are you so short-sighted and/or selfish that you think the game that is BEST for you would be BEST for the 95%???


Pull another useless percentage stat out of your ass why don't you?

Listen to others why don't you?
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:59 pm
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I think they did right in placing 7 wonders in the Kennerspiele group. Even though families in Germany possibly are used to more complex games than the families in Sweden, I can't help but compare with reviews of games published in Swedish newspapers. Diamant, also known as Incan Gold was reviewed a few years ago, and the reviewer thought the rules were much too complex, and he couldn't for the life of him figure out how to play the game. For those that haven't played these games, I can say that these games are very, very simple by BGG standards (weight 1.1 or 1.2, respectively). 7 wonders (with a weight of 2.2) would be totally beyond these families.

I think the Kennerspiele award needs to be thought of as a reward for games that are great but too complex for most families, not necessarily games that are perfect for the hardcore gamers here at the geek.

Edit: One more thing. One thing that became clear in the above mentioned newspaper reviews is that it is the amount of rules the stops most families from getting into games, not necessarily the complexity or depth of the game. I think the Spiel des Jahres jury knows this, and would only consider a game for the Spiel des Jahres if they think most famlies could learn the game from the rules. Learning the game from another player is MUCH easier, but the jury can certainly not count on that there is an experienced player present when someone has bought the game.
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  • Edited Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:41 pm
  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:04 pm
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I haven't played Qwirkle, so I don't have an opinion about its worthiness either way; this is a generic response to some of what I've read here.

I don't think it's that "non-gamers" can't understand complicated rule systems, as has been implied or stated by some. Certainly it's a lot easier to grasp, say, the iconography in Race for the Galaxy if you've already got a mental schema for such things, but it's not impossible. One fellow who's recently started gaming with us grasped Rush n' Crush very quickly, and he'd had serious trouble following Citadels and even Ticket to Ride in other recent sessions, both games that I would consider much easier than RnC. I was even more surprised since none of us had played RnC before, whereas he was the only one learning Citadels and TTR the other weeks (so we could all answer questions about those).

I have two points with this. First is that different concepts come more easily to different people. The second is that, in my experience, rules complexity is less a barrier to entry in games than desire to play that specific title. I know people who can quote Magic: The Gathering rulings for arcane interactions and who also had no patience whatsoever learning games like Acquire because they just weren't interested.

I do worry that the Kennerspiel will alienate the target market. I could easily see some feeling patronized that the jury felt like they "couldn't handle" 7 Wonders, and others dismissing Qwirkle as a kiddie game (or 7 Wonders as only a game for geeks). I guess we'll find out. (Please note I'm not implying any of these were the intent of the jury; just that I could see them being perceived this way.)

Regarding 7 Wonders' complexity, I've only taught it twice, but my experience was that it was entirely dependent on whether or not players already understood the concept of card drafting. Those who did tended to be fine with the other elements; those who didn't were so hung up on not having "their own hand of cards" that they tended to not even try to grasp the strategy. (I actually had a similar experience playing Turn the Tide, itself a former SdJ nominee, with my in-laws; they kept wanting to discard and shuffle cards rather than maintaining the hands and passing them after each round.)
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:27 pm
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And the BGG Argument Clinic is alive and well!

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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:41 pm
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W Eric Martin wrote:
curtc wrote:
But this discussion is on BGG. So the discussion is explicitly in relation to the BGG user-base. If the discussion were on Walmart's forums (do they even have them?) then that would likely result in a different set of viewpoints.

True, but I don't think tornspace (and travvller in this post) are trying to shut people up. Rather they're highlighting the futility of members of a select audience (i.e., BGG users) protesting an award aimed at a mass audience – futility in the sense of yelling into the storm as the BGG readership is small potatoes relative to the scale of the worldwide game market.

I don't think anyone here is delusional enough to think that sharing their opinion here will have any tangible effect on the award. It's just a place to share opinions with folks who might care to read them. And the number of responses seems to confirm that.
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:43 pm
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jeffinberlin wrote:
And furthermore, for those in the U.S. who do not think this award has any relevance on their corner of the hobby--2 of those winners were originally produced by small, independent publishers from the United States.

Yes, I was trying to claim earlier that it does affect us, but people have repeatedly claimed in this thread that the award doesn't affect us (in the US). Thank you for providing some balance.
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:53 pm
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The key division here is the intent of the award compared to what others want the award to be. Some people have clearly confused their wants and opinions with the goal of the SdJ.

Many have pointed to when El Grande won. Ironically, THAT is an example of the SdJ going against its mission. Don't get me wrong. I think El Grande is a stupendous game. It's a better game than either Qwirkle or 7 Wonders in terms of depth. But El Grande is positively not for families or attracting people into board gaming.

The stated goals are to expand board gaming by introducing easy to learn games to German families. It is not for best gamer's game of the year.

I continued to be baffled as to why this debate rages. Not just this year, but apparently every year! The geeklist I quoted from 2006 shows some of the exact same comments. And all I'm doing is presenting the same views expressed by others back then.

There isn't even a real debate here. It's called striving for objectivity. You cannot logically slam the SdJ for not fitting your needs and opinions when they have spelled out their goals and their choices clearly match those goals.

I recently played Troyes. I admit I didn't fully get it, but I know enough to realize it's a deep game. It's a better gamer's game, by a million miles, compared to Qwirkle and 7 Wonders. If that game had won I'm assuming SdJ critics would have been pleased. And they would have been as wrong as they are now. The SdJ would have violated their own stated principles and goals, just like they did with El Grande.

This entire debate swings on the view that people think this award is supposed to go for games loved by gamers. There is nothing to debate because that view is wrong. As impolite and undiplomatic as that sounds, it's just a cold hard fact.
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:05 pm
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Spleen wrote:
As a game, qwirkle is one I would specifically not introduce to newbies because I wouldn't want to put a bad taste in their mouth about playing board games. SDJ has selected some great games in the past(el grande, ticket to ride), but like with villa palletti, they whiffed big time this year.

Yes, exactly! (Must be the first name.) I actually think Qwirkle is best targeted at people who do play a lot of games (mainly Euros), because those people probably don't play too many abstracts, let alone multiplayer abstracts. But for people who only buy the SdJ winner, I think the reaction from many customers would be, "huh, that's the best family game of the year? Really?" To which SdJ apologists would need to coming running to the rescue: "No, no, no! Don't you get it? SdJ has nothing to do which game is best! Just be glad it only took you 5 minutes to learn!" To which innocent game customer says, "WTF???"
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:11 pm
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travvller wrote:

Many have pointed to when El Grande won. Ironically, THAT is an example of the SdJ going against its mission.


Actually, THAT is an example of what SdJ's mission was and should be today. Somehow your definition and my definition of "their" mission is different.

And THAT is why the debate rages on. Because not even the SdJ could agree upon what their real mission and how it was delivered was throughout it's own history.

Not the difference between perceived "gamer" games, but perceived "family" games. I say El Grande is a great family game, and so did the SdJ.

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  • Edited Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:16 pm
  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:14 pm
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Curt Carpenter
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travvller wrote:
Many have pointed to when El Grande won. Ironically, THAT is an example of the SdJ going against its mission. Don't get me wrong. I think El Grande is a stupendous game. It's a better game than either Qwirkle or 7 Wonders in terms of depth. But El Grande is positively not for families or attracting people into board gaming.

I don't see why not. My financial advisor asked me for a board game recommendation for Christmas a couple years ago. I mentioned El Grande and I'm not sure what else. I only remember El Grande because that's the game they told me they liked the best. And they taught themselves from the rules with no one outside the family present.

travvller wrote:
I continued to be baffled as to why this debate rages.

In the spirit of SdJ and simplicity, I'll make it simple: Because some people feel that the game that won the SdJ is not the best one for the stated target market. Others disagree, hence a debate.

travvller wrote:
This entire debate swings on the view that people think this award is supposed to go for games loved by gamers.

I missed that. Who said that? 7 Wonders is the highest ranked game among 2010 releases, followed by Dominant Species, Civilization, and Runewars. I didn't see any of the latter three mentioned in this thread.
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:24 pm
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MWChapel wrote:
gruescher wrote:
MWChapel wrote:

Pffft...Easily. I've played all of those games with teens and kids as young as 11. No problem.

Yeah, yeah, average 11 y/o kids teaching themselves Puerto Rico.
I give up. You win. I acknowledge and admire your and your families intellectual superiority. SdJ sucks. Let's move on.

Sheesh.


If you are going to come in here and defend the SdJ, then have some muscle to back it up! If you want to battle it out with drive by passive aggressive snippets, well I am really good at those.

But I don't accept any of these as valid points.

1. The SdJ is not for you.
2. German families are different than American families, and therefore you can't argue it.
3. The SdJ "The Game of the Year" is actually a gateway game into the hobby.

I don't agree with ANY of those points. All three of them are complete and utter cop outs.

You want the BEST family game, then pick the BEST, not the path of least resistance.





Dude, I just noticed your geek badge - "game elitist!" gulp

now I get it! laughlaughlaugh

I do appreciate your passion, not the rudeness which knocks your case. Try putting yourself in someone else's shoes, you might learn something... and by a quick scan of the thumbs in this thread, you are in the minority...

re valid points - remember, you called them valid...
1. your own arguments support this pretty clearly...
2. you might be surprised... time to brush up on culture outside the USA...
3. Marketing 101 stuff dude - no brainer

none of it really matters in the end. The sales figures will tell the story. If they go up we all win. We should celebrate.

Feel free to rant! Woo Hoo!!!!!!!!




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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:15 pm
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Laszlo Molnar
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MWChapel wrote:
Because not even the SdJ could agree upon what their real mission and how it was delivered was throughout it's own history.

Actually I do agree with that (!). And the jury also agrees - that's why they found there must be a difference made between games like El Grande, Tikal, Torres and games like Dixit, Villa Paletti, Keltis, Zooloretto as the two obviously serves different groups. That's why they 'divided' the award into two parts this year, a part easily accessible for everyone (SdJ) and games that are not totally confusing for beginners (KdJ).
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:27 pm
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mrivera wrote:
Try putting yourself in someone else's shoes, you might learn something...



Ok, I'll put on the SdJ version 2.5's Shoes. You remember them, they were the Jury that voted in games like Settlers, Torres, Elfenland, Tikal and El Grande. I learned that they were able to pick great family games that were also GOOD games. I learned that yes, the SdJ has great potential and could have really push this hobby forward. I also learned that SdJ version 3.1 regressed into a pile of fluff. And here is hoping that SdJ 4.0, or the jury that will eventually replace this one will find it's roots once again.

Yes, I've learned lots of things. Thanks!
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  • Edited Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:28 pm
  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:28 pm
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Laszlo Molnar
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MWChapel wrote:
You remember them, they were the Jury that voted in games like Settlers, Torres, Elfenland, Tikal and El Grande. I learned that they were able to pick great family games that were also GOOD games.

And the jury also learned that their decision was criticised more often than not by the masses for choosing games that were too complex for inexperienced players. And that's what they certainly didn't want: if people are turning away from the prize it means they will turn to games like Monopoly once again when they are buying games for Christmas. They had to turn to simpler games - not "worse", just "simple" games. These are still exceptional games - they are just very light and easy to learn. This way the mission of the award can be completed: bring lots of newcomers to the hobby, not turn them away.
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  • Edited Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:50 pm
  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:32 pm
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DaviddesJ wrote:
No, you are completely factually wrong, in two different ways. First, no one has scoffed at 7 Wonders; I think it is a fine game. And two, it is not the same award, it is receiving a new award which is supposed to be targeted especially at enthusiasts.



I have noticed David and a few others saying that 7 Wonders is supposedly not an enthusiast's game. Why not? It is ranked 12 overall and 1st as a family game. It generated an immense amount of buzz on this site and looking at it's rating's graph the vast majority of geeks who have played the game have rated it a 7 or higher. The reviews I have read by our fellow enthusiasts have predominantly been positive and most of the negative reviews really boil down to buyer's remorse by those who were expecting a deeper game.

I have to believe that the frequenters of this site are enthusiasts. I definitely consider myself an enthusiast. Do I like games like Steam, Brass, Le Havre, etc.? Yes! But I also like 7 Wonders.

There has no mention been made about the requisite weight or depth of games that qualify for this new award-- only that they must appeal to enthusiasts which (based on the BGG stats for the game) it clearly does.

7 Wonders is definitely light filler fun. It is a gateway game. AND it seems to appeal to enthusiasts on this site by quite a large margin over those who do not like it.
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:54 pm
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MWChapel wrote:
It's sad to think that family gaming is now reduced to only games that can be taught in 5 minutes, and played in 15. I'm saddened to think that now the industry has reduced my "family" to the mentality of gnats on crack.

I thought games like Puerto Rico, Torres, and Tikal WERE family games.

Thanks for dumbing it down SdJ.


I think some of us consider family games to be a fairly wide range (from The Magic Labyrinth to Pandemic depending upon the group). If all your kids are close in age, you can target age appropriate games and move along at their pace. My kids are 5 years apart, and games like Qwirkle make it possible to play a game together, as a family.

I do not think the SdJ has changed their mission so much as evolved it. They have two awards now (3 counting the toddler level award). I suspect these should provide a more targeted award in the future.

Both my friend and I have wives who love Qwirkle. They are not gamers, but enjoy playing games, and Qwirkle works quite well. I think it is definitely worthy of this award... even though it feels odd having had the game for 5 or 6 years already.

People can be resistant to change of any sort. I think this will be good for gaming, and if the games chosen do not appeal to you, I'm sure there are other avenues for your assessment (like BGG). If your concern is that the award is being watered down for the masses... I don't see it yet. I think there are just so many more games too choose from these days the committee is trying to break it down into a more manageable and understandable format. It makes perfect sense to me.
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:14 pm
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MWChapel wrote:
jeffinberlin wrote:

The biggest hurdle to the popularity of new games is learning the rules. Only a few of us actually enjoy studying rules booklets to new games so that we can teach them to others.


I'm not sure about you, but I HATE learning new rules. But a great thing we had when we were kids were these creatures called "parents". They would take the time to sit down and explain how to play games. My dad taught me games like Axis and Allies, Chess, Pinocle, and a ton others, and he wasn't a gamer. That was just in his job description. And none of these games were very easy to teach. Puerto Rico rules vs. Axis and Allies rules...Man, these kids have it easy.

I'm not sure how it is today in modern families, but I don't think they buy family games, give them to the kids and say "figure it out on your own".


I do get what you're saying, and I agree that there are too many people looking for instant gratification, and there are too few parents willing to learn new games to teach to their kids.

I disagree that a game like Qwirkle is either a symptom or cause of this, however.
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:57 pm
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mrivera wrote:

the SDJ is ALL ABOUT REACHING THE AVERAGE NON-GAMER SO GET OVER IT.

If this is the case, in my opinion the SDJ news is basically a case of a passing "game X won SDJ" for a good portion of BGG users. It is almost the equivalent of a board game of the year award handed out by Walmart.
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  • Posted Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:43 pm
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It is almost the equivalent of a board game of the year award handed out by Walmart.

Pretty much.
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  • Posted Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:24 am
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Erin Sparks
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I guess I always saw the SdJ as being like the Oscar, so it disappoints me to see that it doesn't reward the best of the best.

To me, this pick is like if the Oscar was awarded to "Little Fockers" and "The King's Speech" was released the same year and not even nominated.

I just played Dominant Species for the first time (released in 2010) and as a gaming accomplishment, it's miles beyond Qwirkle. Not even a question of taste, it's a question of ambition and workmanship.

So SdJ is no longer the Oscar, it's the MTV Movie Award (or maybe Nickelodeon). Now I know where it stands, it's just a little disappointing.

(*I don't know if Dominant Species was released in Germany in 2010-it's an example)
(*I understand that DS is not for everyone, and won't appeal to a wide audience, and you probably can't play it with kids. I don't care-it's a better game)
(*That's my opinion. It may not be yours. It's OK, the world won't stop spinning)
(*The Oscar has been a little shaky recently too and is also more of a marketing tool than it once was, but I think the comparison is still valid)

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  • Posted Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:32 am
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MWChapel wrote:
...underachieving slacker drop outs stuck to an xbox all day...


All gamers (board- or otherwise) are underachieving slackers.** If they weren't, they'd find something better to do with their time.

** excepting clearclaw, who is an overachieving minmaxer. With nothing better to do with his time
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  • Posted Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:02 am
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Agent Minivann wrote:
mrivera wrote:

the SDJ is ALL ABOUT REACHING THE AVERAGE NON-GAMER SO GET OVER IT.

If this is the case, in my opinion the SDJ news is basically a case of a passing "game X won SDJ" for a good portion of BGG users. It is almost the equivalent of a board game of the year award handed out by Walmart.


And if that means the market grows, more people/families get into gaming, demand drives costs and prices down and more opportunity for great designs to get published, is there a problem with that?

We can remain an insular community and stagnate or promote growth and flourish.
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  • Posted Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:39 am
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Tiwaz Tyrsfist
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Seriously, the tone in this thread is getting close to 4chan level. I haven't seen this much spleen vented in a game forum since The Book of Nine Swords came out in the WotC forums...

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  • Edited Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:54 am
  • Posted Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:52 am
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I am very sympathetic to the idea that SdJ winners need to have extremely simple rules to make an entry into gaming as easy as possible for a wide audience.

But I can't help but wonder about Settlers. This is the game which no doubt has created more gamers than any other in the last 20 years, yet I'm pretty certain if released today it would be verging on (or in) the Kennerspiel category. It probably takes as long to learn as 7 Wonders, and has quite a lot of different rules to remember on the first few plays, plus there's the hidden development cards. It is also much trickier to learn from the rulebook than to be taught verbally. Whether or not the first round of SdJ-fuelled Christmas game-buyers found Settlers a bit hard (especially after Manhattan), once it had a year or two to enter the culture, it proved the jury more than right.

I feel there is much more to "ease of learning" than the length of the written rules. Some systems are very intuitive and run smoothly, but take a little while to explain. I feel 7 Wonders fits this category, and would've made a fine SdJ pick myself.

Still, major congrats to the Qwirkle!

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  • Posted Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:05 am
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At the risk of a shameless plug, in anticipation of the awards, The Spiel released a trilogy of episodes covering all the nominated games for the Kinder, Kenner, and Spiel des Jahres. You can find them at http://www.thespiel.net.

We hope these shows provide a good resource for looking at the nominees through a different lens than usual, namely the criteria the jury uses when selecting a winner.

Which leads me to my main point. An important thing to keep in mind is that these awards are *juried* awards which means the selections each year reflect the tastes and preferences of the players on a panel of judges.

Having served on several film festival juries, I can tell you that coming to a consensus (even when the criteria are well defined like the SdJ) can be very difficult. Over the years, perhaps we can begin to make some assessments about the overall characteristics of each SdJ category, but because the jury itself changes over time, even this is a moving target. Each jury will interpret the criteria in its own manner and that's how we get a group of winners that at first glance seem to lack an overall organizing principle.

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  • Posted Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:34 am
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Brian Boyle
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SdJ now on a par with Mensa Select
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  • Posted Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:31 am
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Henrik Lantz
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sysyphus wrote:
SdJ now on a par with Mensa Select


Uhhh. As far as I understand it, Mensa doesn't really use gamers for their evaluation. The people in the jury for Spiel des Jahres play a lot of more games than most of us.
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  • Posted Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:54 am
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Laszlo Molnar
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Bolger wrote:
sysyphus wrote:
SdJ now on a par with Mensa Select


Uhhh. As far as I understand it, Mensa doesn't really use gamers for their evaluation. The people in the jury for Spiel des Jahres play a lot of more games than most of us.

+if you check who's a BGG member of them you'll see they have favorites like 1830: Railways&Robber Barons, Puerto Rico, Agricola, Caylus... Which means they know what 'quality' means - they just happen to see what beginners can also understand and enjoy.
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  • Edited Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:24 am
  • Posted Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:58 am
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Gerald Rüscher
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lacxox wrote:
+if you check who's a BGG member of them you'll see they have favorites like 1830: Railways&Robber Barons, Puerto Rico, Agricola, Caylus... Which means what 'quality' means - they just happen to see what beginners can also understand and enjoy.

Precisely.

For example, Udo Bartsch, who is one of the jury members, has his own Blog at http://rezensionen-fuer-millionen.blogspot.com

If you check the games he has rated highest (see http://rezensionen-fuer-millionen.blogspot.com/search/label/... ) you will find games like Through the Ages: A Story of Civilization and The Castles of Burgundy side by side with Poison or Whoowasit?.

So yes: these guys like heavy games as well as they like light games. In addition to that they also receive a lot of feedback from gaming groups, retailers and from publishers so they know pretty good which games are successful and suitable for the average Joe and which are not.

As I said before: this discussion is the same year by year. What I've learned is, that some gamers simply cannot accept the idea of giving an award to a seemingly trivial or (from their perspective) second-class game, just for the reason that it may be easier to learn by average or (yikes!) sub-average people. Maybe this has something to do with a perceived devaluation of our hobby but since I'm no shrink I can only guess

Matter of fact (and I also said this before): Considering the huge success of board games in a digital world and considered the very high visibility of the SdJ I feel the jury did a pretty good job (even though I do not agree with all of their choices)
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  • Posted Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:35 pm
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johnnyspys wrote:

Just remember Jethro Tull won the first Heavy Metal Grammy award, while Metallica back in their prime lost.


You heavy metal guys still cannot get over this...; but comparing Jethro Tull to Qwirkle is a bit below the flute.
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  • Posted Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:01 pm
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FranklinTV wrote:
johnnyspys wrote:

Just remember Jethro Tull won the first Heavy Metal Grammy award, while Metallica back in their prime lost.


You heavy metal guys still cannot get over this...; but comparing Jethro Tull to Qwirkle is a bit below the flute.

So you're saying the SdJ jury wasn't thick as a brick?
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  • Posted Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:13 pm
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Quote:
Just remember Jethro Tull won the first Heavy Metal Grammy award, while Metallica back in their prime lost.




Great Reference! I remember the moment well. angry Awards shouldn't be taken too seriously and the above reference proves that (especially if you know/like metal). I started reading the posts as why and why not these games should have been SdJ and thought, "There has to be better then this?" I play games I like regardless how popular/unpopular they are. I know what I like and what I don't like. You shouldn't let awards decide what is good for you. Whether you are a jaded, game-master-god-brain or a wishy-washy sheeple gamer who only has nice things to say about anything, keep on board gaming.
 
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  • Posted Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:05 am
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Dug it up: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/1264660#1264660

41 minutes in.
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  • Posted Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:20 am
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My daughter asked for Qwirkle several Christmasses ago, and she loves it! BTW...so do I! cool

As a 6'2" gamer I enjoy the feel of the thick block components.

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  • Posted Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:37 am
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AlexDespres wrote:
Is this an attempt by SdJ to tout games they perceive will be bestsellers? I have to say it feels like they're trying to embrace a game that will get more "mainstream" sales and get that SdJ logo on a game you might see in WalMart, Target, and other common retailers.


These are not common retailers in Germany AFAIK.
 
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  • Posted Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:23 pm
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Agent Minivann wrote:
It is almost the equivalent of a board game of the year award handed out by Walmart.


You're wrong to americanise this, but the sentiment is otherwise correct.
 
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  • Posted Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:25 pm
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FranklinTV wrote:
You heavy metal guys still cannot get over this...; but comparing Jethro Tull to Qwirkle is a bit below the flute.


The flute IS a heavy, metal instrument!
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  • Posted Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:28 pm
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Pawel Zawisza
France
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As others have mentioned, the idea of SoJ is linked closely with Germany market. The link in German somebody posted is also informative - it also shows exclusively Germans playing the game.

SdJ will become the award for non-complex games, games that may get more people to play board games. KdJ will be for more complex games, not complex like War of the Ring, Arkham Horror, etc., but with more mechanics. 7 Wonders seems like a good choice.
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  • Posted Fri Jul 1, 2011 7:51 am
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Nick A
United States
Exton
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W Eric Martin wrote:

...

As for Qwirkle, let's look at a common point of view about the game:

drazkor wrote:
I just don't get Qwirkle.
...


...


Hmmm.

Thanks for your thoughts Eric. I at least understand now how a game like Qwirkle would bubble up as a competitor in the competition.

I may give Qwirkle another try (I actually own it) to see if I can try out some of the planning ahead you discussed (normally I'm the ultra defensive guy). Worst case scenario, it will continue to be my two year old daughter's game; she loves playing a matching game with the chunky pieces.
 
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  • Posted Fri Jul 1, 2011 12:30 pm
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W. Eric Martin
United States
Apex
North Carolina
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drazkor wrote:
I may give Qwirkle another try (I actually own it) to see if I can try out some of the planning ahead you discussed (normally I'm the ultra defensive guy). Worst case scenario, it will continue to be my two year old daughter's game; she loves playing a matching game with the chunky pieces.


That's another aspect of the game's beauty. In addition to playing it simple and straightforward or more thoughtfully, you can also just play with the bits. We've created sculptures and designs that others had to guess.

We've also fiddled with the nature of game play, converting everything to five (five colors, five shapes, score five points on a full row) and to seven (seven colors, etc. with a homemade set on paper), not to mention the Inverse Qwirkle above. The nature of the game and its streamlined design invites such play, which I think is an additional positive.
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  • Posted Fri Jul 1, 2011 8:40 pm
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Justus Pang
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Houston
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DaviddesJ wrote:
cbs42 wrote:
I agree that the optimal move is a fairly obvious decision IF you see it.


I think a lot of people are seriously misunderstanding how to play Qwirkle, and consequently underestimating the game. A key to the game is the 6-point bonus for completing Qwirkles, this means that taking the "highest-scoring move" that just opens up a much bigger score for an opponent is not necessarily a good idea. Much like playing Scrabble and opening up triple word scores for your opponent.


Now I'm interested. I can't scrabble for the vocabulary but the idea of scrabble without having to memorize dictionaries sounds really, really interesting!
 
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  • Posted Sat Jul 2, 2011 2:47 pm
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Steve Bernhardt
United States
saratoga springs
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Qwirkle is a good game, the first Sdj winner in a long time that I've cared about at all. Everyone I've introduced it to has really enjoyed it.
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  • Posted Sat Jul 2, 2011 9:17 pm
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Dave Rachar
Canada
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I have Qwirkle too ...played it a couple of times. it's not really that good.Sort of happy it won the award because it might make it easier for me to trade the game away for something better.
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  • Posted Sun Jul 3, 2011 3:44 am
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Jeffrey Allers
Germany
Berlin
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Quote:
How did the game come to be published in Germany in the first place? Well, funny story – my wife Linda and I brought my copy of Qwirkle to Berlin in October 2007 while visiting game designer and then-Boardgame News columnist Jeffrey Allers. I had raved about the game many times on BGN, even naming it my game of the year in April 2007 with eight months left on the calendar. Jeff had asked about buying the game from me, but he played tour guide in Berlin, so I gave him my copy as I could easily buy another in the U.S.

Before I did so, however, Linda and I taught the game to designer and publisher Andrea Meyer and Schmidt Spiele editor (and No Thanks! designer) Thorsten Gimmler while playing games for the evening in Spielwiese Berlin, a boardgame café. Linda and I rolled the newcomers – as Qwirkle is trickier than it seems at first glance – then Linda played again with Andrea, Thorsten and someone else and once again came away victorious. Thorsten asked for a contact at MindWare, and that contact eventually led to Qwirkle appearing on German game shelves and (soon to be) bearing a bright red popple.


Eric summed up the story well, and I've told it from my perspective here:

http://berlingamedesign.blogspot.com/2011/07/hand-in-spiel-d...
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  • Posted Sun Jul 3, 2011 1:25 pm
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Peaceful Gamin'
Canada
Vancouver
BC
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Looking for a playtester/editor/translator for your cool new game? Contact us, we're free (but we ask to be mentioned in the acknowledgements, and a copy of the game would be a nice gesture, but not necessary).
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congrats on introducing this to Europe!!!!
 
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  • Posted Sun Jul 3, 2011 2:26 pm
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