The Hotness
Games|People|Company
Dominion: Dark Ages
Total War
Mage Knight: Board Game
Fantastiqa
Libertalia
The Lord of the Rings: Nazgul
Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)
Eclipse
Mice and Mystics
Doctor Who: The Card Game
Lords of Waterdeep
Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures Game
Agricola: All Creatures Big and Small
Dungeon Fighter
Android: Netrunner
Virgin Queen
A Game of Thrones: The Board Game (Second Edition)
Glory to Rome
Infiltration
Collapsible D: The Final Minutes of the Titanic
Dominion
The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game
Twilight Struggle
City of Horror
Snowdonia
1989: Dawn of Freedom
Goa
Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective
Agricola
Among the Stars
7 Wonders: Cities
7 Wonders
The Swarm
Through the Ages: A Story of Civilization
Arkham Horror
Village
Ora et Labora
Battles of Westeros: House Baratheon Army Expansion
Race for the Galaxy
War of the Ring
Trajan
Kingdom Builder
The Castles of Burgundy
Zombicide
Twilight Imperium (third edition)
Space Alert
Dungeon Command: Sting of Lolth
Hacienda
Battlestar Galactica
Ground Floor

Captain's Blog

Thar be games ahead... Keep a weather eye out for the random posts, amusing anecdotes & incoherent ramblings of a life long gamer. You have been warned! Aaar!
Recommend
108 
 Thumb up
1.30
 tip
 Thumb up

CCG Games Suck

Play Games - Interact - Have Fun!
United States

California
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Wait. Let me explain.

I've never been a big fan of the whole CCG game model - lure you in with a decent starter deck and then slowly bleed your wallet dry by the desire to obtain oh-so-entincing rare cards that are harder to come by than a Jar-Jar Binks fan. You justify each purchase of "1 or 2" boosters by saying it's "really not that much money", but you never are honest with yourself nor do you sit down and take the time to total up your total investment either.

It's a fantastic marketing plan from a business standpoint initially, but like the vast majority of CCG's that hit the shelves, the desire quickly fades once the players realize that the game isn't that great, something newer (and better?) comes along or they simply come to their senses once they realize the sheer insanity of it.

Consequently, I don't buy CCG's. Well, let me clarify that - I don't buy them when they first come out, but I have been known to purchase a few in bulk once they are heavily discounted.

Which brings us to this past weekend.

I'm in my local FLGS and I've just picked up some card sleeves and plastic card holders (which I use for bits storage on many games - out with baggies!), when I pass the Clearance Rack and there are a bunch of new additions to the shelves - most notably, complete display boxes of Tomb Raider. Each display box contains 48 boosters and - what's this?... they have a price of $3.00 on them! That's right, $3.00 for a complete unopened display box of 48 boosters (with special foil cards). Now in the past, I had already picked up the two Starter Decks for this game (again at a huge discount), so here is an opportunity to really flesh out the game for a ridiculously low price.



My original purchase of the game was because it's one of the few CCG's that can be played solo without completely bastardizing the rules - the game was designed with solitaire play in mind. Since I travel alot, this game was appealing as it's small enough to pack in a suitcase and play in a hotel room. With a display box (or two) of boosters, I could really expand my game play (not that I had played either starter deck a single time up to this point, but you know what I mean). COOL!

I decide upon 2 display boxes - a whopping $6 out of my pocket, but John (the owner of the store), says that I should get at least one full set (about 210) cards from the boosters I have just bought. Technically the two starter decks already cover the first 50 cards so, I'm pretty optimistic. I pay the man and head home.

Once there, I set-up a small card table in my game room to begin opening the 96 packs and see what I have. I realize that I've never done this before - never once have I purchased a full display box in one fell swoop. This is kind of exciting!

I begin the slow process of opening each pack: carefully tearing them open, look through the cards to see what's what - mentally noting each "new" card that I have't seen yet. Wow, there are a lot of cool effects here - interesting gaming elements like "Save Points" and alternate "Lara's" to use. This looks like it's going to be a fun game.

Sweet.

I continue opening each booster pack - much faster now, as it's taking longer than I thought it would if I try and read each card. OH LOOK! My first foil card - Awesome! I wonder how many of those I will get in each display box? Here's another! I go through the first display box and I have 4 of them - numbered 5 through 8 (almost half of the 10 total and I've only gone through the first display box!).

I continue on.

About 20 minutes later, I'm done - a huge pile of wrappers, several large stacks of cards and I'm feeling pretty good about having at least one complete set of cards. Well, excluding the foil cards anyway, I already knew that I had doubled up on the ones I had opened in the first display box. That's ok, they were bonus cards really - ok not bonus cards, but I should be able to get the missing ones if I grab one more box... not a big deal.

I begin the slow process of sorting all 768 cards - first into stacks by "tens", then I go through each stack and find at least 1 card of each number for that group of 10. Initally, this process is great. I've got all the 50's... all the 60's... all the 70's... oops! Missing one from the 80's - no wait there it is... and so on. I'm moving along at a good clip thinking that I may get two complete sets out of this, but I suddenly get to the 150's and I'm missing 4 cards. FOUR. Dammit.

I sort the 160's and 170's... CRAP! I'm missing cards from theses stacks too. Suddenly, I realize I won't even have ONE complete set. Eventually, I see that I'm missing 2-4 cards from every grouping from 150 though 200, and I'm missing 6 of the foil cards. I think it took me about .01872 seconds to decide to jump in the car and go buy some more booster display boxes (before someone ELSE does!) and as I sheepishly walk into the store, John looks up from a graphic novel he is reading and asks how it worked out.

I tell him, I'm short a bunch of cards and I walk over to the Clearance Rack again. There are still 4 more display boxes there (whew!). I stand there for a few moments, my indecision growing and becoming more and more obvious. One. I definitely need one. Maybe two. One for sure though. What if one doesn't cover it? Ok, then it's definately 2. TWO really should cover it, right? I mean c'mon, that's another 768 cards for Pete's sake! I can't believe that I wouldn't get the 20 or so cards that I need if I get two more display boxes. It's only $6 anyway.

I pick up the two and I actually get the thought into my brain to just go straight to the register and buy them when it hits: There are two display boxes left. Only two. I should just get them, right? It's only $6. Well, $6 more, $12 total. $12? Man, I don't want to spend that on a game I barely am familiar with - I've never even played it actually. I should just put these two display boxes down and be happy with what I have already. I've already spent $6 too. If I grab these other two, I'm then into the game $12 and if I but all four, then it's $18! That's crazy! I don't even know if I like this game!.

This goes on for literally ten minutes - during which time I picked up between 1-4 display boxes and set them all back down again over and over and over. I'm sure John thought I was nuts. Eventually, it's decided - TWO boxes. THAT'S IT. If I don't get what I need from them, I'm DONE. I don't need to have every card anyway. Right? RIGHT? F*ck. I'm tempted to grab the last 2 again but I refrain and buy the two I meant to get in the first place. I feel like an idiot, but I head home, suddenly very optimistic about my chances for completing my collection.

At home, I immediately head back to the card table. It's not pretty. I'm ripping open the packs, quickly scanning the cards (there's one I don't have!) and hoping to get the rest of the foil cards I'm missing too. Display booster box #3 only has 3 foil cards in it. WTF! The others had 4 each in them. What a rip-off! I have to admit I was getting a little pissed at this point. I dig into the 4th display box and tear them open like a mad man. I'm not seeing anything new for a long time. I must have everything - right? Must be. That's good. I just need a few more foil cards I'm missing. The 4th display box had 5 foil cards in it so my 4 per box average holds up (whew!).

Finally, I'm done and the sorting begins anew. Another 45 minutes go by and I.m done with that. Now is the moment of truth! I pick-up where my incomplete set left off. I add the missing cards to my stack of 150's... fill in all the 160... Yes! This is good!... 170's.... 171... 172...174... 176... 173... 177... 178... 179... Where is 173? Where is 175? Did I miss one? Aha! Here is 175 in the stack of the 180's!... I need 173... 173... Son of a B*tch!

It's not there. I continue on... still missing some 180's, 190,s and still missing FOUR of the foil cards. Out of 8 cards I only got 2 I didn't already have. This is unbelievable! I've got 1536 cards here - how can I not have at least one complete set? What a crock of sh*t! I hate these damn games. This just validates exactly why I never buy them when they first come out. It's a total ripoff and you can't ever be sure you will get what you need. I look at the side of the booster display box and see the suggested retail price of $95.99 on it. I realize I've got the equivalent of $384 of CARDS sitting here.

My sanity comes back to me and I pack everything up into the cardboard card box I also bought to hold all these damn cards and put it away.

Lesson learned (again!).

I get out my copy of Space Hulk: Death Angel - The Card Game and play a couple of quick games. Now this is much better. No booster cards required. Everything I need comes in the box. THIS is how games are supposed to be. I scoff at those fools that play Magic: The Gathering and how they are just throwing their money away. They won't ever get my money! I'm too strong for that.

Now, If you'll excuse me, I need to um... go out. To the store, I mean. The grocery store that is. I'm serious! I'm not going to the game store. I don't need those last two display boxes. I DON'T. I probably won't get the cards I need anyway, so what is the point? I'm not going there, really. (I do only need a few cards though). No, I'm not going down that path!. (I bet I'd get most - IF NOT ALL, of the cards I'm missing. After all it's another 768 cards!). No, I'm not seriously considering going there to get those... Just talking here...

Hey John!
Twitter Facebook
58 Comments
Subscribe sub options Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:13 am
Post Comment
Brandon Pennington
United States
Springfield
Missouri
flag msg tools
designer
If your orange juice doesn't burn on the way down, then you need more vodka!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Haha, nice read. Thanks!
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:38 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Chris Stanton
England

Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Now if only you had someone you could trade with (always a better way of filling in gaps).
That's the problem with dead CCGs- you're unlikely to know anyone that already plays & just have to accept that you're unlikely to complete the set (given most CCGs seeming distribution issues)

On the plus side- it's enough cards to give you plenty of tinkering opportunity for a very small price
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:45 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Rick Baptist
United States
Redlands
California
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hahah, wonderful read! I used to be big into basketball cards, and I'll never forget the first big box I opened up. Wrappers were everywhere! Good memories. So we're all waiting now to see if you ended up with that complete set after all.

3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:38 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Rick Koeppen
United States
Bellevue
Nebraska
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Haha, this was a very funny read. I went after a few dead CCGs not long ago and ran into many of the same problems. Super cheap booster boxes, and I'm missing a few cards. Do I go grab more of the cheap boxes? Do I scour eBay and pay a few bucks more for the cards I'm missing, or risk buying a box again? Ughhh!! I'm saving this blog entry for future reference, I'm sure I'll want to show this to someone in the future. :]
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:12 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Paul S
United Kingdom

DARK IN HERE, ISN'T IT?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Good post, all very true
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:57 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Simon Tan
Philippines
Quezon City
Metro Manila
mbmbmbmbmb
Firstly, a CCG that goes on discount is a CCG that is not worth buying. Prices for Magic: the Gathering and Yu-Gi-Oh! pretty much kept going up since inception (though is mostly due to inflation); for Magic, even old basic lands are more expensive than certain commons of recent print. The moment price for an entire CCG line drops, it is a dead market and a dead game.

Why do CCGs die? I can quickly name two reasons: poor or unclear gameplay, and the use of existing intellectual property. While I don't know enough about "Tomb Raider" to judge whether reason one applies, I can tell you that the use of such a narrow franchise (heck, there are only ten Tomb Raider video games in the franchise to date; at the time of the CCG, there were only four) pretty much doomed it. To succeed, product has to continually be produced or reprinted: you can only print so much product until you run out of IP, and you cannot just reprint product without alienating both existing and new players.

I can cite this as one possible reason for the demise of the VS System (despite the use of franchises from both Marvel and DC!), Animayhem! (if I recall, this one had five or six different anime franchises behind it), as well as older franchises like the X-Men TCG. Frankly, I am not a fan of the mechanics, either. I will admit they were creative, though.

There is a third reason, being that of simply coming out at the wrong place and time, kept good games like Netrunner from getting enough spotlight. However, these games will probably have a good chance of being reprinted, perhaps even remodeled.

I also have to question your OCD-like need to collect the entire set. A CCG is successful when you are able to play and enjoy the game without the need to own each and every card; newer players don't feel left out because they don't have cards that older players do. Are you interested in the game, or are you just trying to complete the collection for posting on eBay?

In the end, no matter how cheap a game is, if it is bad, you're not going to enjoy it. The reverse is true up to a point where you start to starve. If there is any benefit now compared to two decades ago (the start of the CCG genre), it is that a wealth of information is now readily available from the internet. Heck, you could've checked on Tomb Raider here before buying, and I'm pretty sure the score would've caused you to at least think twice.

Frankly, I don't like people who hate an entire genre based on their own poor decisions. Each game deserves to be measured on its own merit. It's not like you were made to purchase games at gunpoint...

... though reading this again made me think that the store owner did not have your best interest in mind.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:02 am
  • Posted Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:01 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Donald Acker
China
Suzhou
Jiangsu
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I've done all of this, and with Tomb Raider, no less! It is unreal what a bad distribution that game had. I probably totaled 8 or so booster boxes of the first set and NEVER picked up half of the rares. The expansions weren't much better.

That said, it is a fairly cool game. A modern, non-collectible TR game would be awesome!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:02 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
John "Omega" Williams
United States

Michigan
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Part of the trap collectors fall into is thinking either
A: All, or nearly all the cards of a set should be in one case of boosters.
or
B: If you get that OTHER box of boosters sitting right next to it surely you'll get the rest. Right?

Wrong.
Its nearly never the case and 90% never the case with the older CCGs.

From observation and working in the CCG biz way back it seems that the cruel whim of fate is that a single shipment of boosters to any given store is near guaranteed to NOT have all the cards you need no matter how many boxes you buy.

And if a game has bad to horrible sorting like for example Dragon Storm, Illuminanti or Racer Knights from personal experience. Then all bets are off of ever getting all the cards no matter.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:20 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Justus Pendleton
Australia
Sydney
NSW
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
It's a total ripoff and you can't ever be sure you will get what you need.


"Need"?
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:41 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Andreas Krüger
Germany
Krefeld
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I just tried to find some information about the number of cards you need to buy to make sure you have a complete set. If there are only 150 cards, you need to buy about 840. This, however, is only valid if all cards are printed in equal numbers. With rare cards, the number of cards needed will probably increase a lot. I think the English language term for this kind of mathematical problem is "coupon collector problem".
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:14 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
AJ Newhausen
United States
South Beloit
Illinois
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If it was like pretty much every other CCG, there was 1 rare per pack, and from his article, it appears this game had 60 rares (plus 10 foils, but it's not clear whether they replaced the rare or were in addition to it).

How many packs (assuming they contain 1 rare each) would he need to open to get all 60?

EDIT: Just looked up a card list online. Cards 1-50 were 'fixed' rarity (from the starter decks?), 51-72 were 'common/fixed', 73-100 common, 101-150 uncommon, 151-200 rare, and 201-210 'ultra-rare' (appears to be 1 per 12 packs from the OP's experience). So only 50 rares, not 60.

But yeah...it's important to note that a ton of CCG's had collation issues. Even Magic wasn't immune from this back in the days of Legends.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:07 pm
  • Posted Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:02 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Play Games - Interact - Have Fun!
United States

California
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
goodshepherd wrote:
Firstly, a CCG that goes on discount is a CCG that is not worth buying. Prices for Magic: the Gathering and Yu-Gi-Oh! pretty much kept going up since inception (though is mostly due to inflation); for Magic, even old basic lands are more expensive than certain commons of recent print. The moment price for an entire CCG line drops, it is a dead market and a dead game.


I can think of numerous CCG's that have died that have die hard fans for them. Are you really saying that unless it is still in print, it's not worth getting? Dead games are part of the reason this game site exists, in fact my favorite game is a dead game (Man O' War) and there are new people getting in to it all the time (I know as I'm continually getting geekmails asking advice on how to do just that). I think that you mean to say that "a CCG that goes on discount is a CCG that is not worth buying" - for YOU. For others - like me, a game that goes on discount (like a CCG), is the first point that I would even consider buying it.

goodshepherd wrote:
Why do CCGs die? I can quickly name two reasons: poor or unclear gameplay, and the use of existing intellectual property. While I don't know enough about "Tomb Raider" to judge whether reason one applies, I can tell you that the use of such a narrow franchise (heck, there are only ten Tomb Raider video games in the franchise to date; at the time of the CCG, there were only four) pretty much doomed it. To succeed, product has to continually be produced or reprinted: you can only print so much product until you run out of IP, and you cannot just reprint product without alienating both existing and new players.


Here I think we agree. I stated as much in my opening paragraphs, although I'm not at all saying that Tomb Raider sucks. The "something better comes along" statement I made means that Tomb Raider can only stay hot as long as the video games and movies are still popular. Once that interest wanes on the franchise itself, the game is doomed.

goodshepherd wrote:
I can cite this as one possible reason for the demise of the VS System (despite the use of franchises from both Marvel and DC!), Animayhem! (if I recall, this one had five or six different anime franchises behind it), as well as older franchises like the X-Men TCG. Frankly, I am not a fan of the mechanics, either. I will admit they were creative, though.


I'm not familiar with this system or any of the games, but I think your probably on the mark here.

goodshepherd wrote:
There is a third reason, being that of simply coming out at the wrong place and time, kept good games like Netrunner from getting enough spotlight. However, these games will probably have a good chance of being reprinted, perhaps even remodeled.


Oversaturation is probably the best way to sum up this effect. For a while there, the market was flooded with SO many CCG's, finding the good ones from the bad was really hit or miss. At that point, I think people turn to the FRANCHISE (and what is popular) as opposed to risking so much money on a completely unknown title with little or no tie in to something else. The fact that the business model for CCG's (having to spend a fair amount of money to get a playable and competitive deck) is counter-productive to enticing new players into trying an unknown game seems to be lost on the very manufacturers themselves!

goodshepherd wrote:
I also have to question your OCD-like need to collect the entire set. A CCG is successful when you are able to play and enjoy the game without the need to own each and every card; newer players don't feel left out because they don't have cards that older players do. Are you interested in the game, or are you just trying to complete the collection for posting on eBay?


Guilty as charged.

I do have OCD tendencies but the desire to own each and every card was not my moivation to pick up the booters. Tomb Raider is a game I can play solo and take with me on my business trips. Buying the boosters was an easy way to increase my deck to allow more variety when I did finally get around to playing the game. I'm not planning on playing this with anyone else and I'm not an eBay'er either, so buying the cards to compete with or sell wasn't on the agenda either.

goodshepherd wrote:
In the end, no matter how cheap a game is, if it is bad, you're not going to enjoy it. The reverse is true up to a point where you start to starve. If there is any benefit now compared to two decades ago (the start of the CCG genre), it is that a wealth of information is now readily available from the internet. Heck, you could've checked on Tomb Raider here before buying, and I'm pretty sure the score would've caused you to at least think twice.

Frankly, I don't like people who hate an entire genre based on their own poor decisions. Each game deserves to be measured on its own merit. It's not like you were made to purchase games at gunpoint...


I think you missed the point of my "controversial" title and the irony of my (hopefully humorous) story. I'm certainly not saying that all those Magic: The Gathering players have all wasted their money - I have numerous geekbuddies that still play. I also have games that I have spent a mint on and others would consider me crazy for doing so. If a game is enjoyable and you don't mind spending a mint to stay current and competitive, more power to you. Games Workshop uses a similar model as Warhammer is the same way. Every couple of years, they release a new rule set and then revise each army - often making older units no longer playable or less useful do to the changes. This practice alienates some customers and draws in others. It's not really for me as I have limited discretionary income. The same goes for CCG's - unless it's one that looks interesting AND it's heavily discounted.

CCG's still suck though.


goodshepherd wrote:
... though reading this again made me think that the store owner did not have your best interest in mind.


I have no worries there. John actually talked me out of getting more than 2 originally AND he discounted the two I bought even more so the came to under $3 each with tax.
14 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:12 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Play Games - Interact - Have Fun!
United States

California
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
pigasuspig wrote:
I've done all of this, and with Tomb Raider, no less! It is unreal what a bad distribution that game had. I probably totaled 8 or so booster boxes of the first set and NEVER picked up half of the rares. The expansions weren't much better.

That said, it is a fairly cool game. A modern, non-collectible TR game would be awesome!


Are you still missing some? Let me know and I'll see what I have - maybe we can work out a trade!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:16 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Simon Tan
Philippines
Quezon City
Metro Manila
mbmbmbmbmb
manowarplayer wrote:
I think you missed the point of my "controversial" title and the irony of my (hopefully humorous) story. I'm certainly not saying that all those Magic: The Gathering players have all wasted their money - I have numerous geekbuddies that still play. I also have games that I have spent a mint on and others would consider me crazy for doing so. If a game is enjoyable and you don't mind spending a mint to stay current and competitive, more power to you. Games Workshop uses a similar model as Warhammer is the same way. Every couple of years, they release a new rule set and then revise each army - often making older units no longer playable or less useful do to the changes. This practice alienates some customers and draws in others. It's not really for me as I have limited discretionary income. The same goes for CCG's - unless it's one that looks interesting AND it's heavily discounted.

CCG's still suck though.


Fair enough. I'm too used to seeing "/sarcasm" or at least "" to denote an alternate meaning.

I do actually feel for you when it comes to the point of spending money on CCGs. I mostly play sealed deck or draft formats, and limit my purchases to the participation of these formats. Since I don't have time to play constructed formats (the ones you bring your own deck), I tend to sell as much of my purchases on the spot as possible. I rarely break even, but I am able to mitigate losses here.

manowarplayer wrote:
I can think of numerous CCG's that have died that have die hard fans for them. Are you really saying that unless it is still in print, it's not worth getting? Dead games are part of the reason this game site exists, in fact my favorite game is a dead game (Man O' War) and there are new people getting in to it all the time (I know as I'm continually getting geekmails asking advice on how to do just that). I think that you mean to say that "a CCG that goes on discount is a CCG that is not worth buying" - for YOU. For others - like me, a game that goes on discount (like a CCG), is the first point that I would even consider buying it.


Regarding the "discount" comment, that one is just a matter of analysis. When a CCG starts being sold at discount, it is not because the company is being generous to its consumers; it is a last-ditch effort of the company to revive interest before the CCG goes under. I guess my outlook is pretty cold, in that regard; it's probably an offshoot of me being a bit of a miser.

As for die-hard fans, they can only keep the memory alive; they can't really revive a dead CCG short of reprinting it. The sad reality of fans is that they are still human; they either move on or pass on. To continue interest, a game (in print or out) has to continuously have fans.

If someone wanted to resurrect 'abandonware' board games (for lack of a better term), it's just a simple matter of getting a copy of the rules and a list of components. In the case of Man O' War or other out-of-print regular board games, even if every fan were to disappear today, it isn't hard for other people to pick it up fifty years from now since all needed information would be available here.

Perhaps, in that regard, there should be a call for game designers or fans to make component lists and rules available to games that have gone out-of-print because the company went under?

But how about an out-of-print CCG? Here, you'll need to get a hold of actual cards; proxying isn't exactly a solution (well, it IS a solution for Tomb Raider, but that's because of the single-player component) since it boils down to players printing the exact cards they want in their decks. With no new content coming out, it will be a matter of time before it devolves into a handful of 'best decks.' Fan-made content becomes a solution here, but without large-scale support, fans decline in number as there is insufficient push to get new fans. Even computer-based CCGs suffer from this as well, and those are just five years old at the most?

manowarplayer wrote:
Oversaturation is probably the best way to sum up this effect. For a while there, the market was flooded with SO many CCG's, finding the good ones from the bad was really hit or miss. At that point, I think people turn to the FRANCHISE (and what is popular) as opposed to risking so much money on a completely unknown title with little or no tie in to something else. The fact that the business model for CCG's (having to spend a fair amount of money to get a playable and competitive deck) is counter-productive to enticing new players into trying an unknown game seems to be lost on the very manufacturers themselves!


Good point. It is hard to put your money on which ones will succeed and which ones will not, even to this day.

There was a time Magic was actually in crisis through a combination of poorly thought-out mechanics and the printing of cards that today would make you go "WT-?!" On the other hand, VS System was having a pretty good run until Upper Deck Entertainment suddenly pulled the plug. (In this case, in my opinion, is a waste; perhaps another company can pick up where UDE left off?)

When the CCG bubble burst, original IPs and franchise-based games both took plenty of hits; it is simply the franchise-based failures that are remembered more.

***

I do guess that there were way too many card games that had no business being CCGs; if the game you bought is as good as it is (I can, however, think of several that do fit the bill), it probably should have been printed without the collectible aspect. However, that is hindsight following the bursting of the CCG bubble.

Perhaps the game can be re-themed or reworked to not rely on card rarity or self-constructed decks? That, perhaps, is probably the true solution to keeping CCGs 'alive,' so to speak.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:05 pm
  • Posted Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:59 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jon K
United States
Sacramento
California
Great read. I have a bunch of MTG cards tucked away somewhere from when I used to collect them in the mid-90's. I am not a fan of CCG's either and prefer games like LotR:TCG and Death Angel, where everyone is on a level playing field.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:19 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Trent Hamm
United States
Huxley
Iowa
flag msg tools
See this text? It's a gratuitous waste of GeekGold.
badge
The game itself isn't important. Spending time intellectually jousting with likeminded folks is the real reason to game.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Vs didn't fail because of a lack of IP to mine. Vs failed because the game system had some deep flaws to it. Namely, there was essentially no randomness to the matchups. In most games (like Magic), even if deck A is a better deck than deck B, B will still win every once in a while. In Vs, if deck A is better than deck B, deck B NEVER wins. The game is essentially designed that way.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:24 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jonathan
United States
Maitland
Florida
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think Sirlin got it more or less correct when he said that CCGs are designed to rip you off. That said, they can still be a lot of fun. I spent all day yesterday playing at a Magic pre-release, and had a blast (I went undefeated too). You just have to modify your expectations. For me, Magic is about playing in limited environments like drafts and especially cubes. Constructed Magic just takes too much time, energy, and money to stay current with.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:46 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Behrooz Shahriari
United Kingdom
Glasgow
mbmbmbmb
I can understand that more cards seems like more variety and more possible choices in terms of deck-construction. But given that most games allow you to have multiples of a single card, that's not necessarily true.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:58 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Kamma
United States
Stuart
Florida
CCGS are indeed stupid.
magic the gathering is fun but i would never buy alot of the cards simply because of the randomization. that and the power creep nowadays. they should just have it so you can buy any card you want for the same price so it's not collectible, that would make for a fair game.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:45 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
John "Omega" Williams
United States

Michigan
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Herein lies one of the fundamental problems of all Collectible "whatever" Games.
Even before "ultra rares" came out - Just about every CCG had cards that were more rare than others. And with the open used of ultra rares there are now cards that are in reality super ultra rare. ad nausium.

This means your chances of getting a full set just from buying cases is absurdly low. Its meant to be that way to predate as heavily as possible on the completists and the gambling addicts. Unfortunately it also starts to alienate the casual gamers at come point and sooner or later even the completists may wake up and see the money sink it is becoming and totally quit CCGs.

Such is the biz and why the biz is about dead now.

Armadillo Al wrote:
If it was like pretty much every other CCG, there was 1 rare per pack, and from his article, it appears this game had 60 rares (plus 10 foils, but it's not clear whether they replaced the rare or were in addition to it).

How many packs (assuming they contain 1 rare each) would he need to open to get all 60?

EDIT: Just looked up a card list online. Cards 1-50 were 'fixed' rarity (from the starter decks?), 51-72 were 'common/fixed', 73-100 common, 101-150 uncommon, 151-200 rare, and 201-210 'ultra-rare' (appears to be 1 per 12 packs from the OP's experience). So only 50 rares, not 60.

But yeah...it's important to note that a ton of CCG's had collation issues. Even Magic wasn't immune from this back in the days of Legends.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:14 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Ian Toltz
United States
Revere
Massachusetts
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Just as a data point...

I was really excited for the newest set that was coming out for Magic, Scars of Mirrodin. Why's not important, but the set spoke to me story wise. I'd also just landed my first 'real' job recently, so for the first time ever I actually had a lump sum of cash sitting on my bank account... (A fool and his money, as the saying goes)

So I preordered a case. 6 boxes, 36 packs per box, somewhere over $500 (not sure of the exact price, but I *think* it ended up working out to $85 per box).

After cracking the whole case (I told myself I'd save a couple boxes to draft with; that didn't work), I had...

At least 1 of each, and 2 of many, mythic rares.

Approximately 4 of each rare.

Approximately 10 of each uncommon.

Approximately 20 of each common.

So Magic, at least, seems to have a fairly even distribution per case.

(and yes, I weep to think I dropped $500 on that...)
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:49 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
John "Omega" Williams
United States

Michigan
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
WOTC at least learns from their mistakes on rare occasions. (That of course doent mean they wont screw up again sooner or later.)

But when you step back and look at it... That is barely a complete set from some 216 packs. How many cards per pack and how many mythics did you get per box? And how many mythics in total?

This is in reality a pretty horrible distribution and you just happened to luck out immensely.

Great that you scored at least. Horriffic to hear how much you shelled out... ow... just... ow...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:17 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Kamma
United States
Stuart
Florida
Asmor wrote:
Just as a data point...

I was really excited for the newest set that was coming out for Magic, Scars of Mirrodin. Why's not important, but the set spoke to me story wise. I'd also just landed my first 'real' job recently, so for the first time ever I actually had a lump sum of cash sitting on my bank account... (A fool and his money, as the saying goes)

So I preordered a case. 6 boxes, 36 packs per box, somewhere over $500 (not sure of the exact price, but I *think* it ended up working out to $85 per box).

After cracking the whole case (I told myself I'd save a couple boxes to draft with; that didn't work), I had...

At least 1 of each, and 2 of many, mythic rares.

Approximately 4 of each rare.

Approximately 10 of each uncommon.

Approximately 20 of each common.

So Magic, at least, seems to have a fairly even distribution per case.

(and yes, I weep to think I dropped $500 on that...)


yeah well, magic nowadays completely sucks as a game. all the cards are ridiculously over powered
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:20 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Angelo Nikolaou
Greece
Maniakoi
Kastoria
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Frankly, Death Angel won't give you the same variety as a CCG.

That's the point: CCGs are for players who like being in a 'what the heck, I've never seen this before' situation, thinking on their feet at solving a problem that has never arisen before.

In Death Angel, the correct solution is often visible, and after 10 plays you will find yourself making the same decisions over and over again.

Dead CCGs are by no means bad. I've played Dune, 7th Sea, Doomtown and Warlord, all amazing games. They died because the player base reached a point where it was continuously declining, and at some pont 1-2 sets were sitting on shelves, so making any more would mean more loss.

In order to enjoy a dead CCG you really need to play with someone else.

Out of curiosity, you've never even played Tomb Raider? I'm sure it's worth a try at least. You paid for it after all

Worst case scenario, you make a donation at a local school or youth center with something that someone else might enjoy
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:52 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Angelo Nikolaou
Greece
Maniakoi
Kastoria
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
devaloki wrote:
yeah well, magic nowadays completely sucks as a game. all the cards are ridiculously over powered


Ok, that is just wrong.

What cards are overpowered, compared to what other cards?

If your old deck is being beaten by a new deck, I'm certain that there are other new decks that you can beat and many old decks that could beat you. No modern deck could win a Necrodonate, I bet. Thus it's not the new cards, it's luck and play that determines the winner.

If you think that some cards are overpowered, if everyone played with one or two cards then they would ban them (and they have). But generally the card pool is amazingly well balanced. So many different strategies exist and none is completely predominant! There are many board games that are not balanced as well as Magic (Dominion, anyone?)

3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:56 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Ian Toltz
United States
Revere
Massachusetts
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Moonleaf wrote:
devaloki wrote:
yeah well, magic nowadays completely sucks as a game. all the cards are ridiculously over powered


Ok, that is just wrong.


Don't feed the trolls. Nothing you say is going to sway him.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:03 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Kamma
United States
Stuart
Florida
Moonleaf wrote:
devaloki wrote:
yeah well, magic nowadays completely sucks as a game. all the cards are ridiculously over powered


Ok, that is just wrong.

What cards are overpowered, compared to what other cards?

If your old deck is being beaten by a new deck, I'm certain that there are other new decks that you can beat and many old decks that could beat you. No modern deck could win a Necrodonate, I bet. Thus it's not the new cards, it's luck and play that determines the winner.

If you think that some cards are overpowered, if everyone played with one or two cards then they would ban them (and they have). But generally the card pool is amazingly well balanced. So many different strategies exist and none is completely predominant! There are many board games that are not balanced as well as Magic (Dominion, anyone?)


serra angel to baneslayer angel for example
then there's the stupid "mythic rares" with ridiculous abilities like protections from all colors,annihilate etc..
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:06 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Kamma
United States
Stuart
Florida
Asmor wrote:
Moonleaf wrote:
devaloki wrote:
yeah well, magic nowadays completely sucks as a game. all the cards are ridiculously over powered


Ok, that is just wrong.


Don't feed the trolls. Nothing you say is going to sway him.

i'm not trolling i'm being serious. magic cards are too powerful nowadays
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:09 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Angelo Nikolaou
Greece
Maniakoi
Kastoria
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
devaloki wrote:
serra angel to baneslayer angel for example
then there's the stupid "mythic rares" with ridiculous abilities like protections from all colors,annihilate etc..


Serra Angel was from the beginning an uncommon, thus not the most powerful card that exists. There is a difference in power depending on rarity and I believe everyone expects that.

Besides, you can't really compare balance with 1st-4th edition and nowadays, since then the balance of cards wasn't really obvious. I mean, Erg Raiders? There is no better beatdown 2-cost creature out there

Lastly, Baneslayer Angel taps to attack

Radiant, Archangel is actually better than Baneslayer
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:26 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Kamma
United States
Stuart
Florida
Moonleaf wrote:
devaloki wrote:
yeah well, magic nowadays completely sucks as a game. all the cards are ridiculously over powered


Ok, that is just wrong.

What cards are overpowered, compared to what other cards?

If your old deck is being beaten by a new deck, I'm certain that there are other new decks that you can beat and many old decks that could beat you. No modern deck could win a Necrodonate, I bet. Thus it's not the new cards, it's luck and play that determines the winner.

If you think that some cards are overpowered, if everyone played with one or two cards then they would ban them (and they have). But generally the card pool is amazingly well balanced. So many different strategies exist and none is completely predominant! There are many board games that are not balanced as well as Magic (Dominion, anyone?)




Primeval Titan? Wurmcoil Engine? Seriously? it's already reached the point where only the newest cards ) are playable.the overall power level of decks is increasing out of control

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:27 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Angelo Nikolaou
Greece
Maniakoi
Kastoria
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
devaloki wrote:
Primeval Titan? Wurmcoil Engine? Seriously? it's already reached the point where only the newest cards ) are playable.the overall power level of decks is increasing out of control


May I choose the most horrible and unbalanced cards from the past as well?

Dark Ritual? Necropotence? Juzam Djinn? Palinchron? Oath of Druids? Moat? Notice that I don't even have to name the Power 9, since they are already obviously broken.

Yes, they make powerful creatures because creatures are very vulnerable to removal. There are ton of removal cards in every deck. A Pacifism/Arrest/Oblivion Ring/Narcolepsy/Corrupted Consience/Counterspell/tapper stops both cards cold down. The Titan is even easier to handle with Go for the Throat or Day of Judgment.

None of the cards you mentioned can win you the game automatically. If these were the best cards there were, wouldn't everyone play them? Still, many decks win games without them
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:38 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Ryan Hackel
United States
Falls Church
Virginia
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Why has every dead CCG died? Because...

CCG player wrote:
I can't find other players!


The rest of the argument is in determining this problem, whether it is bad game design, poor publisher support, or lack of interest among gamers.

For the record, I have played about a dozen dead CCGs in the last few years. My Doomtown and Netrunner plays have exceeded that of Magic (and of many other standalone published games). However, with the exception of those three, none of these CCGs has hit the table in more than one session. Why should I bother playing Sim City, Star Wars, X-Files, Shadowrun, Mythos, 7th Sea, Star Trek, or On the Edge when I could be playing MtG, Doomtown, or Netrunner?

Unlike the cult-of-the new eurogames market, the CCG market has it's best works behind it. With no new innovations, the best games worth playing are identified. With no influx of new cards, even those games exist in stasis.

The CCG market died by stasis, and the CCG players have tried the rest, and now only stick to the best. Think of what the Eurogame community would look like if no new euros were published after 2002? We'd all be playing the same "best" games because nothing better would have come along since then.

The top ten most widely played games by BGG users in July 2003 were Puerto Rico, Carcassonne, Setters of Catan, Amun-Re, Bohnanza, Lost Cities, Ra, TransAmerica, Balloon Cup, Citadels, and Bang. Fast forward seven years and only one of those (Carcassonne) is still among the current top ten. Where did the others go? They were displaced by newer titles. There has been very little development in the CCG market in those same seven years. The fact that so many former CCG players have wised up to the business model certainly caused that.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:16 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
John "Omega" Williams
United States

Michigan
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
By 2000 companies were allready starting to see resistance. And it didn't help that a few CCGs were trying to gouge and bleed players pretty bad. Which only increased the drop-off rate.

And that resistance hasn't evaporated magically. Hence why more companies are going non-collectible. Just within the last year or three a company planning a card game version of its online game polled the players on CCG or non and the reaction was very negative to CCG. So they wisely went non.

As for new games. Theres been a few tries. Chaotic comes to mind as a relatively recent one and WOTC tried an ill-advised experiment in leaching by tacking a CCG to an RPG. The reaction wasnt all that positive really. BDP has been tinkering with new CCG-RPG ideas in the shadows and looks to be planning a full blown re-launching of the core game with new rules. Time will tell how well that goes over.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:55 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Ulrich Hergl
Germany
Riemerling near Munich
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I really wonder why no one has bothered to mention the Living Card Games from FFG in this thread before. They give you variety and you CAN afford them.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:19 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Steve Wagner
United States
Kenesaw
Nebraska
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Tomb Raider was a decent game, but definitely was not meant to be a CCG. In fact 75% of all CCG's should have been non-CCG's.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:37 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
John "Omega" Williams
United States

Michigan
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Living card games are just non-collectible card games... with expansions and stupid new hip term for it which seems to put some people off trying them thinking its just another new catchword for CCG.

"hey, I'd like to introduce this new Living Card game from..."
"what? no way am I getting into another one of those damn money sinks!"

"hey, I'd like to introduce this new Living Card game from..."
"Oh my gawd! WOTC has started printing cards on the backs of children!!!"
(Ok. So she'd just finished watching Water World and has an odd sense of humor...)

www_Mischraum_de wrote:
I really wonder why no one has bothered to mention the Living Card Games from FFG in this thread before. They give you variety and you CAN afford them.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:11 am
  • Posted Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:10 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Ulrich Hergl
Germany
Riemerling near Munich
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Omega2064 wrote:
Living card games are just non-collectible card games... with expansions and stupid new hip term for it


Sure. So how many card games do you know that are distributed that way with monthly expansions on a regular base?

I don't think the main reason for the popularity of Magic is that you can spend a whole lotta money on it.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:03 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
John "Omega" Williams
United States

Michigan
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
To hear some players talk... $$$ is the only way to play MTG... ahem...

But as allways. Get away from the @#$%&ing tournaments and things oft are rather diffrent. Usually little of the mania that plagues the tournament circuits. (With the usual notable exceptions of course. Theres allways someone with one of those out there...)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:17 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Curt Hnatiuk
United States
St. Louis
Missouri
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I saw the title "CCG Games", and immediately thought "DC Comics"

and ATM Machine
and PIN Number
and SAT Test
and LAN Network
and UPC Code
...
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:18 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
John "Omega" Williams
United States

Michigan
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Well then good thing it wasnt about CMGs or CDGs then... whistle
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:55 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Rick
United States
Burnsville
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
CCGs call them booster packs.

LCGs and the Dominions/Thunderstones/etc of the world call them expansions.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:54 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Kamma
United States
Stuart
Florida
RiffRaff14 wrote:
CCGs call them booster packs.

LCGs and the Dominions/Thunderstones/etc of the world call them expansions.

they're not comparable at all.
ccg booster packs are bull, they're randomized and you can never buy the cards you want directly officially.
expansions are way better
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:25 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Rick
United States
Burnsville
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
devaloki wrote:
they're not comparable at all.
ccg booster packs are bull, they're randomized and you can never buy the cards you want directly officially.
expansions are way better

They certainly aren't the same, but from a 'getting at your money' perspective both seem to work fairly well.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:29 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
John "Omega" Williams
United States

Michigan
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Thats because gamers now are more willing to buy into a game that isnt going to generate tons of useless extra cards and still not have a complete set.

One expansion of cards will allways beat out equivalent card count of boosters in pricing and lack of frustration levels building. (especially if a company tries the 8$ for 8 card booster stunt.)
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:40 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Rick
United States
Burnsville
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Omega2064 wrote:
Thats because gamers now are more willing to buy into a game that isnt going to generate tons of useless extra cards and still not have a complete set.

No, I know. The booster model is definitely a joke for the collector's out there. Plus it turns a game like Magic from fun to frustrating because you weren't willing to spend the money while your opponent was.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:51 pm
  • Posted Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:50 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Kamma
United States
Stuart
Florida
RiffRaff14 wrote:
Omega2064 wrote:
Thats because gamers now are more willing to buy into a game that isnt going to generate tons of useless extra cards and still not have a complete set.

No, I know. The booster model is definitely a joke for the collector's out there. Plus it turns a game like Magic from fun to frustrating because you weren't willing to spend the money while your opponent was.

indeed. and i mean, it's frustrating, because magic is such a fun game. it's just the business model is annoying
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:26 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Angelo Nikolaou
Greece
Maniakoi
Kastoria
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
RiffRaff14 wrote:
Omega2064 wrote:
Thats because gamers now are more willing to buy into a game that isnt going to generate tons of useless extra cards and still not have a complete set.

No, I know. The booster model is definitely a joke for the collector's out there. Plus it turns a game like Magic from fun to frustrating because you weren't willing to spend the money while your opponent was.


I thoroughly disagree. You can easily make a 30$ deck that can beat the 1000$ decks. A friend got top4 in a GPQ with a preconstructed deck that we bought for 24$!!!

As for the boosters, when I open a new box of boosters I consistently open more money in cards than the money I spent in the boosters. So where is the problem in the booster model? A small investment, a little trading and you got what you want
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:02 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
John "Omega" Williams
United States

Michigan
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Not everyone has the option (or occasionally willingness) to trade and/or the sometimes big bucks needed to buy individual cards to fill gaps. For most its usually nothing near a "small investment" ever.

As for playing straight out of the box. Obviously anyone could. But obviously most dont. Such is.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:00 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Angelo Nikolaou
Greece
Maniakoi
Kastoria
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, you can't be competitive in tournaments and not trade or place a small investment. You can easily make a 50$ investment for a fairly good deck that can win you tournaments. With the tournaments you win, you get your money back in prizes!

For those who don't have the option or willingness to trade and spend some money, then I guess Magic isn't for them. But it still is a great game for the ones who do
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:13 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
David Bate
United Kingdom

Staffordshire
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Card Game and Collecting. Two ideas combined. If you like doing both you'll be set. I loved buying and opening booster packs. I love collecting and chasing cards is part of the fun. Afterall people buy into exactly the same model with baseball cards et al.That you have hopefully a playable game is a bonus.

If you have the bug you'll end up spending loads unless you keep a tight hold on it.If you hoped to complete any CCG from 2 booster boxes then good luck to you. I've never managed that in 20 years.I wish my LGS stocked old CCGs at that price, I might actually finish a few collections.

Tonb Raider hit with 2 more expansions, one of which, Big Guns, never officially made it across the Atlantic.The game failed ultimately when Precedence Publishing folded when Warner Bros pulled their premiere Babylon 5 licence and so the company floundered.

Still TR it is a neat little game that can be played solo out of the starter decks. I wouldn't call it the greatest CCG but hey it is 12 years old and tastes move on.

But I agree CCGs are cash sucking addictive monkies taht you don't want on your back.

Sorry for any typos but I've lost my glasses and can only see blury lettering due to twenty years of squinting at small text on CCGs,


2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:17 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Play Games - Interact - Have Fun!
United States

California
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
wrrlykam wrote:
Card Game and Collecting. Two ideas combined. If you like doing both you'll be set. I loved buying and opening booster packs. I love collecting and chasing cards is part of the fun. Afterall people buy into exactly the same model with baseball cards et al.That you have hopefully a playable game is a bonus.

If you have the bug you'll end up spending loads unless you keep a tight hold on it.If you hoped to complete any CCG from 2 booster boxes then good luck to you. I've never managed that in 20 years.I wish my LGS stocked old CCGs at that price, I might actually finish a few collections.


Having not been a collector or player of any CCG's my hope to collect at least one complete set was based on the store owner's comment. After getting 2 MORE booster display boxes and still not getting one set, it pretty much reaffirmed my feelings on CCG's.

The big question was if I was going to go back and pick up the last two boxes he had. Well, I did. John (the store owner) also found an unopened display box of the starter decks (5 of each of the two kinds). He sold that to me for 5 bucks. All in all I had spent $23 (6 booster boxes at $3 each and the $5 starter display). Actually it was more like $20-$21 as John gave me a discount on each trip into the store too.

So, the $600 question (the retail value of what I bought) is: Did I get a complete set after SIX display booster boxes? Anyone want to place a bet and take a guess before I answer? I'll let you all know on Sunday.

wrrlykam wrote:


Tonb Raider hit with 2 more expansions, one of which, Big Guns, never officially made it across the Atlantic.The game failed ultimately when Precedence Publishing folded when Warner Bros pulled their premiere Babylon 5 licence and so the company floundered.

Still TR it is a neat little game that can be played solo out of the starter decks. I wouldn't call it the greatest CCG but hey it is 12 years old and tastes move on.

But I agree CCGs are cash sucking addictive monkies taht you don't want on your back.

Sorry for any typos but I've lost my glasses and can only see blury lettering due to twenty years of squinting at small text on CCGs,




The solo play is exactly why I originally picked up the two starters I had bought a couple years ago. The cheap display boosters were just gravy.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:41 pm
  • Posted Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:35 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Angelo Nikolaou
Greece
Maniakoi
Kastoria
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The chance of having a complete set after buying these boxes is slim due to collation issues.

The certain thing, though, is that you have equally valuable cards to trade for the ones you don't have.

The CCG model is based on trading. Without it, it is a frustrating experience. With it, a most gratifying one
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:26 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Play Games - Interact - Have Fun!
United States

California
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Moonleaf wrote:
The chance of having a complete set after buying these boxes is slim due to collation issues.

The certain thing, though, is that you have equally valuable cards to trade for the ones you don't have.

The CCG model is based on trading. Without it, it is a frustrating experience. With it, a most gratifying one


And you would be correct.

6 Display boxes...
48 boosters per box
8 cards per booster
2304 cards total.
- and not a complete set.


Even more unbelievable is that I'm not short just one or two cards - there must be at least 20 cards that I'm missing! That is just retarded.

I understand that there is supposed to be some trading involved, but that seems a bit extreme - especiall considering most people would be buying just boosters and not a whole display box. If the store owner had gone through these same 6 display boxes, NONE of us would have been able to complete a set.

Poor collation indeed. For the majority of the people buying these cards (young kids), the chances of getting a complete set without going to some other store in another city seems pretty slim.

Yes, I stand by my original comment:

CCG's suck (for me at least).

Anyone out there looking to trade some Tomb Raider cards? Let me know what you need and hopefully we can help each other out!

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:01 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Flying Arrow
United States

Pennsylvania
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
My story with dead CCGs has been a bit better.

I collected the whole Spycraft run for about $60 net. I got quite a bit of help from fellow BGGers, though:

(Long story on that found here:
http://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/47762/i-got-the-whole-thin... )

I have about $60 or so in City of Heroes CCG and have just a handful of cards remaining. So if anyone has CoH cards available...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:13 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
John "Omega" Williams
United States

Michigan
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Another thing that can kill all hope is just how well or not the company sorts the cards.

A recurring death knell for a CCG is if the player frequently hits doubles in a booster. Illuminanti is still my hands down worst case offender for this with sometime multiple doubles in a single booster and near the same card spread between diffrent boosters! Dragon Storm had this problem as well.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:25 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Kevin B. Smith
United States
Margate
Florida
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
arbmouser wrote:
I know this thread hasn't been replied to in a while, but I have recently ben plagued by a shortage of tabletop role players because all the game shops have transmuted into CCG tourney hang outs. CCG's are a virus that needs to be vaccinated.

Unfortunately, if CCG's die, many FLGS will die along with them.

Fortunately my FLGS just moved into a larger space, so they have the huge open (usually noisy) room for CCG play, but also 5 small rooms for RPG, boardgame, and tabletop miniature play. (Plus 2 rooms for videogames). So they can do their noisy thing, and we can do our quiet(er) thing at the same time
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:33 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Ian Toltz
United States
Revere
Massachusetts
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
arbmouser wrote:
CCG's are a virus that needs to be vaccinated.


What are we vaccinating the CCGs against?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:10 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
John "Omega" Williams
United States

Michigan
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Asmor wrote:
arbmouser wrote:
CCG's are a virus that needs to be vaccinated.


What are we vaccinating the CCGs against?


Money, which the CCG virus feeds on by sucking your wallet dry. Many a GGC have starved to death for lack of nourishment.

Unfortunately a few grew bloated with their initial bonanza of hosts to feed off of and now as the spread of victims slowly dwindles, they can sustain themselves longer in the hopes a new generation of fresh young cattle can be infected.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:07 pm
  • Posted Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:07 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.