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Musings from a not-so-serious gamer

Random thoughts from someone who loves the idea of games, spends way too much time on BGG, does actually play games, but isn't all that passionate about them.
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All-pay auctions are everywhere

Kevin B. Smith
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There is a form of auction known as "All-pay"[1], where everyone has to pay their bid, whether they won or lost. According to wikipedia, "All-pay auctions are primarily of academic interest..." Well, I'm here to tell you that this auction format is alive and well in board games.

I think I first saw this mechanic when researching some auction-based games I had not heard of (and ended up not getting). As one review described, it's a nasty mechanic, leading to overbidding and wars of attrition. I immediately realized that it's a mechanic I would not enjoy in a game, so whenever I read about auctions in games, I check to see whether they are all-pay or not.

It was only this week that I realized this mechanic shows up in other ways that you might not realize. One example is the Pharaoh track in Ra and Ra: The Dice Game. Over time, you can buy tiles (Ra) or keep die rolls (Ra Dice) that advance you on the Pharaoh track. At the end of each round, whoever has the most gets a bonus, and whoever has the least loses points. Yup, it's (more or less) an all-pay auction. In a 2p game, which is how I play Ra Dice most of the time, it is exactly an all-pay auction.

Interestingly, I had already realized that I would not compete in the Pharaoh track. In Ra Dice, I'll never keep a Pharaoh roll. The only way I advance on the Pharaoh track is when my 3rd roll produces one, and I don't have the choice to re-roll it.

In 7 Wonders, I found myself ignoring military. At first, I thought it was due to my inherently pacifist nature. Now I realize that I was subconsciously refusing to participate in an all-pay auction. In that game, if you have more military strength than your neighbor, you get a bonus, and if you have less, you get a penalty. Whether you have zero or "opponent minus one", the outcome is the same.

The most recent game I noticed an all-pay auction in was Airlines Europe. There is one stock that is difficult to obtain, and whose "price" (payoff) is not affected by adding routes on the board. It pays off at a fixed rate, $X to whoever has the most, and lower amounts to lesser shareholders. Once again, this is a form of all-pay auction, and I don't want to participate in it.


The fundamental problem for me is that these "auctions" become an arms race. In order to stay ahead you must commit more and more resources. And to avoid losing, your opponent(s) must do the same. All that wasted effort, and anyone who stays out of the fray gets to do all the things the participants are missing out on.

As the computer said in the movie Wargames, "the only winning move is not to play."


[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-pay_auction
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18 Comments
Subscribe sub options Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:37 am
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Mark Thomason
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Good bit. I never realized what it was about Ra that turned me off so much. That's exactly it.
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  • Posted Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:04 am
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Eugene
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Are you conflating all-pay auctions with sunk costs? The way you're making it out, any area majority game like El Grande would be an all-pay auction.
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  • Posted Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:22 am
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Dave Dyer
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Taj Mahal is an excellent all-pay auction game.
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  • Posted Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:51 am
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Lacombe
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garygarison wrote:
Are you conflating all-pay auctions with sunk costs?


[Devil's Advocate] What's the substantive difference?

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  • Edited Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:23 pm
  • Posted Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:23 pm
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Kevin B. Smith
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NateStraight wrote:
garygarison wrote:
Are you conflating all-pay auctions with sunk costs?

[Devil's Advocate] What's the substantive difference?

Good questions. My initial reaction would be that an all-pay auction would be a special case of sunk costs.

There are sunk costs that are not in the form of an all-pay auction. But once you are into an all-pay auction, and you are deciding whether to bid more or drop out, whatever you have already spent is indeed a sunk cost.

Sunk costs are a really important concept that are not taught enough in school.
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  • Posted Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:59 pm
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Lacombe
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peakhope wrote:
Sunk costs are a really important concept that are not taught enough in school.


I agree wholeheartedly, though to carry over your "special case of" language, I'd say "Sunk costs are a special case of marginal cost [benefit] analysis. Marginal cost is a really important concept that is not taught enough in school."
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  • Edited Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:06 pm
  • Posted Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:01 pm
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Kevin B. Smith
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Blackfaer wrote:
Good bit. I never realized what it was about Ra that turned me off so much. That's exactly it.

I still enjoy Ra Dice (and to a lesser degree, Ra), despite the presence of this mechanic. I'm ok with the other games, too. As long as there are ways to win the game without getting caught up in a spending war, they won't keep me from playing a game.

garygarison wrote:
Are you conflating all-pay auctions with sunk costs? The way you're making it out, any area majority game like El Grande would be an all-pay auction.

I forgot to mention it here, but I did also realize recently that this is a big part of why I don't like games like Glenn Drover's Empires: The Age of Discovery where area control plays a huge part. And I have no interest in playing El Grande.

Whether it is the same mechanic, or just something similar, I don't like it.
 
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  • Posted Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:09 pm
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Claudio Campuzano
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Sounds like you are describing a fundamental element of majorities games. To the degree that actions - and other things - can be currency, I'll buy the all-pay thing. If you want a true all pay auction and witness the nastiness that can ensure, check out Namibia and its turn order mechanism.
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  • Posted Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:33 pm
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Eugene
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peakhope wrote:
I forgot to mention it here, but I did also realize recently that this is a big part of why I don't like games like Glenn Drover's Empires: The Age of Discovery where area control plays a huge part. And I have no interest in playing El Grande.

How about Carcassonne, then? Nothing is solidly yours till it's completed and scored. Until then, anyone can come in and either share or take over the thing you have an interest in.

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  • Edited Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:26 pm
  • Posted Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:26 pm
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Kevin B. Smith
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garygarison wrote:
How about Carcassonne, then? Nothing is solidly yours till it's completed and scored. Until then, anyone can come in and either share or take over the thing you have an interest in.

Well, I don't really like Carc, but not because I consider it an all-pay auction. Hmmm. I suppose if played cutthroat, it might be, which I would like even less than playing "nice". But that's a whole other topic.

Maybe "they are everywhere" was less of an exaggeration than I thought at the time I wrote it.
 
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  • Posted Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:00 pm
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Eugene
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I'd be interested to hear your take on the class of games highlighted in the It's not yours geeklist.
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  • Posted Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:08 pm
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Kevin B. Smith
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garygarison wrote:
I'd be interested to hear your take on the class of games highlighted in the It's not yours geeklist.

There are at least 3 very different types of games in that list:

1. Games where items aren't really owned by any one player, like Acquire or Carc. I don't like that kind of game.

2. Games where the game might take stuff from you (Archaeology: The Card Game would be a great example even though it's not on that list). Not my favorite, but I'm more or less ok with it.

3. Games where players steal from each other on a regular basis. I hate that.

You can read more about my strange preferences in a thread I created a while back, with the most relevant part starting here: Re: 2-player light-medium non-cutthroat game (with detailed requirements)
 
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  • Posted Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:18 pm
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Eugene
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Reading it and the associated geeklist right now. Though what we look for in games seems to be drastically opposite, I still find interest in hearing your preferences and the reasons behind them.

Have you looked into The Castles of Burgundy? I played this last night for the first time, ignoring the vehement cautions of one of my friends that I would "hate that game". It really wasn't all that bad. But it is total solo optimization with virtually no opportunity for player-to-player interference.
 
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  • Posted Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:36 pm
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Rob Rob
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Quote:
if you have more military strength than your neighbor, you get a bonus, and if you have less, you get a penalty. Whether you have zero or "opponent minus one", the outcome is the same.

Quite true. The best bet in 7 Wonders' "military race" is to either win both sides or not play at all.

I think the "all-pay" mechanic is the basis of Fist of Dragonstones?
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  • Edited Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:42 pm
  • Posted Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:42 pm
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Kevin B. Smith
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Robrob wrote:
I think the "all-pay" mechanic is the basis of Fist of Dragonstones?

Yup, another game I strongly disliked the one time I played it.
 
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  • Posted Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:33 pm
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Kevin B. Smith
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garygarison wrote:
Have you looked into The Castles of Burgundy? I played this last night for the first time, ignoring the vehement cautions of one of my friends that I would "hate that game". It really wasn't all that bad. But it is total solo optimization with virtually no opportunity for player-to-player interference.

My note to myself after researching it was "Weight 3.2 from Feld. Thin theme. Dice mechanic seems a bit like Yspahan." Assuming the weight is accurate, it's probably above the top end of what I would enjoy. And it's definitely above what my wife would enjoy, and she is my primary gaming partner. She also has a thing against tile-laying.

So I would be happy to try Burgen at some event, but I doubt I would buy it. But thanks for the comment. I'll update my note to mention that there is minimal interaction.
 
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  • Posted Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:38 pm
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George Leach
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Interesting that the games mentioned have some significant differences from all-pay auctions (the one I was thinking about is Cuba's bribery mechanism) (7 Wonders, Ra, El Grande and San Marco, at least, differ):

- They are scored repeatedly (most often three times) such that you can surge your 'bid' at different points and pick up points whereas you might not have won any last scoring round. So your costs aren't sunk, you may still have something to show for it.

- The scores are graded in each; Ra - plus 5, 0 and minus 5, three positions, El Grande usually three scoring positions, San Marco has two positions, 7 Wonders has you score against both of your neighbours.

These set it aside from Cuba's all pay auction in which you have nothing to show for your investment if you don't win, however the winner doesn't necessarily get a direct payout for their trouble. Are there any all pay auctions that are traditional in their payouts?

Aside: I wonder what people's thoughts are about the semi-all-pay auction used in For Sale.
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  • Posted Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:13 pm
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Kevin B. Smith
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Good points, George. There are indeed different levels of "won" or "lost" in the different games. If you at least get something for your troubles, that helps ease the pain. And as you point out, winning in one phase but losing in another is better than losing the one and only scoring event.

I thought there was a game based around pure all-pay auctions where everyone bid on an item, and only one person got it, but everyone else lost their bid. But I may be mis-remembering.
 
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  • Posted Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:52 am
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