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Designer Diary: Star Trek: Fleet Captains

Ethan Pasternack
United States
Seattle
Washington
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These are the voyages...

The design that became Star Trek: Fleet Captains had its origin, like all good licensed games do, in the core concepts of the intellectual property in which it is based.

When I was first tasked with coming up with an idea for a Star Trek miniatures game in 2007, it was clear to all involved that the most iconic, unique, and exciting elements in the franchise are the ships. The characters are much beloved, but when it comes to miniatures the ships are definitely where the cool factor is, so the first challenge was to figure out how to make a ship game that still felt like Star Trek.

See, I had played Star Fleet Battles when I was a teenager, and while I had enjoyed the game and its reams of rules, I never felt like it was a good analog for the shows and movies that I loved. This may be blasphemy to some, but I never experienced a single game of SFB that actually felt like an episode of Star Trek. It was a great window into the universe and a fun strategic simulation, but it didn't really capture the feel of Trek in the game play – primarily (in my professional opinion) because it was so focused on combat, an activity that takes up only a tiny fraction of the screen time in the canon.

So I went back to the core material for inspiration – and it ended up being absurdly easy to find. All it took was watching one episode of Next Generation before I figured it out – it's right there in the intro:

Quote:
These are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise. Its continuing mission to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no one has gone before.

And that was the answer – Trek is about exploration, discovery, and adventure – sometimes that means battle, sometimes it doesn't. That single line of prose inspired almost all of the mechanisms I would create, and in 2010 when Mike Elliott and I sat down and went over the old concept to see what we could use in a Star Trek Clix-based game, almost all of those mechanisms made it through. Here are how some of those mechanisms came to be.

...of the Starship Enterprise...

The selection of ships, crew, and flavor elements that went into the game was a monumental task. I am a stickler for staying true to the metaphor, and Mike is a stickler for mathematical balance – two points of view that often come to blows in game design. This was not, however, our first time wrangling these two competing interests on a major science fiction license that was near and dear to our hearts – we had collaborated in the same way on the Star Wars PocketModel TCG several years prior – so we knew how to handle that challenge going in.

The card mechanisms in the player's command decks, which is where most of the episodic, character, and flavor content is featured, were created entirely for the 2010 design; we had never gotten that far in 2007. Mike and I both dislike having too many card types since it can lead to all kinds of paralysis issues during the game and lead to easy mistakes in deck building. This is not to say that cards shouldn't have multiple roles – that's a critical part of a card game – just that we didn't want to relegate those roles to specific subsets of the cards of a single deck unless we absolutely had to.

A crew role was an obvious choice since famous crewmen from the shows and movies need to be able to be assigned to your ships on a persistent basis. Instantaneous abilities needed to be split between Combat and non-combat (which became "Ops") because we felt that the two buckets would allow us to better exemplify the intent of an ability, and the players to better understand the theme of a card.


Picking which ships to make was a labor of love for me, but it was not without its own challenges. There is always so much to choose from in the Federation and so little to choose from in the fleets of the alien races that the task somehow manages to contain both a tyranny of choice and a need to scrape the barrel at the same time.

Creating parity between the races while also ensuring that the most prominent ships were included was tough. The Klingons had obvious entries for 2-6 point ships, and the Federation had obvious entries for the 1-5 point ships – so many that I had to leave out a lot of great ships – so I had to stretch the boundaries of the classifications more than I had originally intended, and delve further into the canon than I thought I'd need to in order to make both sides equal without removing anything high-profile I'd regret. To everyone who participates in updating and maintaining the Memory Alpha wiki, you are rock stars.

...its continuing mission...

The concept of a mission is quintessential to the Star Trek license. Starships of any real size are massive concentrations of resources that are created by and usually firmly under the control of a central authority, no matter which race you're dealing with. Those central authorities send those ships out on missions to do all sorts of things, and even the most despicable or chaotic races in the canon are bound by honor or duty to at least try to accomplish them.

So, I decided, one key to making a ship game that felt like Trek was to give each player his own set of mission parameters. Now due to the variety of ships and ship roles in the universe, that meant dividing the missions into categories so that the missions one received would generally be suited to the ships one had brought to the table. Ships suited to different roles would therefore draw different combinations of different types of mission cards, ensuring that many of the player's missions were within his grasp.

During our initial review, this mechanism was a no-brainer for both Mike and I. While the original concept was for fewer missions of larger importance, as we developed the new concept Mike made the astute observation that the game wanted more and smaller increments of progress to reward players more often and keep the pace moving.

To keep things simple, we decided we would have the players draw all their ship's required missions at once and place them in a small mission deck they would draw "active" missions from and continue to do so as they completed them.


During our first tests, Mike encountered many missions that were either too long term for his rather aggressive victory strategy or too impractical to accomplish just then – he often has crap luck drawing cards – so he came up with a mission-cycling mechanism, which we liked because it would help prevent "mission lock" and make the game more tournament-friendly.

The mission assortment being dependent on ships also helped the game stay scalable since the quantity and variety would grow as fleet size increased. Scalability was important to us as we wanted to support both a reasonable one-hour play duration and an epic all-day event using the same core set of rules.

...to explore strange new worlds...

Exploring space is the premise of nearly every ST, Next Generation, Voyager, and Enterprise episode, so making that the overarching theme of the game was an easy decision. Making that exciting, however, was the big challenge.

From the beginning I knew that randomization would be essential to keep the game fresh game after game, not only in the card decks and ship collection, but in the play area itself. Therefore, developing a system to create a random, unknown spacescape was an important task to get right. Making sure that the content of that board stayed fresh, exciting, and useful in a variety of game states was even more so.

The exact form factor of the tiles changed drastically over time – beginning as large mini-boards in the original concept, morphing into playing cards in the initial 2010 design, and near the end of development finally settling on the larger hexagonal cards that made it into the final production specs.

The hex gave us two large advantages over squares – they were easier to differentiate in an already card-heavy game, and they gave us up to six natural starting positions instead of just four. For a game that was designed to be expandable and include more and more factions over time, that was a great plus.

The content of the tiles was a lot of fun to develop, while also changing a bit through the design process. Tying encounters to a die roll on reveal of a tile (a brilliant notion of Mike's) allowed us to divorce many of the traditional Trek hazards (time/space anomalies, subspace rifts, cosmic strings) from the basic geography (size, planet/nebula content, resources, etc), which ensured that getting to know the location tiles wouldn't mean you'd get bored with them. Plumbing the depths of both the Star Trek canon and real life astrophysical classification systems was, to put it in Spock-like terms, fascinating.


...to seek out new life and new civilizations...

The encounter cards are, to me, one of the most important things that make Star Trek: Fleet Captains feel like Star Trek. Without the powerful alien entities, time/space anomalies, subspace disturbances, first contact situations, and other such diverse perils, you cannot capture the quintessential optimism that Roddenberry's utopian vision of humanity enshrines.

The encounters let us explore the episodic content of the various series in ways that a pure combat game could not. They open the door to non-ship threats like the bipolar menace that is Q, they give us scientific puzzles like cosmic strings, heck – they even give us the chance to include Tribbles.


From a pure game design perspective, they give us the ability to mess with just about every mechanism in the game, which makes them golden in terms of providing a variety of play experiences, superior turn-by-turn engagement, and best of all a story-line that is unique each time the game is played.

This becomes especially true once expansions are introduced because in addition to providing new races and ships, the expansions are slated to include new and different encounters as well.

The focus on encounters and exploration also guided the way we designed the ship stats. Redirecting power from one system to another is mentioned in almost every episode and every movie in the franchise, so from its earliest inception stat tracking for the ships involved power manipulation.

The primary systems of Weapons, Shields, Sensors, and Engines was the most simplistic breakdown we could do, and ensured a straightforward way to define ship roles – combat ships with heavy weapons and shields, explorers with good engines and sensors, science ships with crazy sensors and not much else, etc.

The Clix dial had not been a part of the initial design, which had allowed point-for-point power distribution, so porting the concept over to it required that we think differently about the way the dial could be used. We wanted to create a system that was semi-ablative to represent power loss as damage is taken, but would also allow the player to make strategic choices about how to allocate what power a ship has.

This gave birth to the idea of alert status. Clustering the clicks of a dial into three damage levels that a player could make adjustments within was a good solution – the trick was making each choice within each alert status be a significant one. Cloaking clicks were easy to do, but everything else involved constant iteration to get right. Mike and I went over and over this, with me doing a revision and him pointing out useless clicks during our test games – it was arduous, but in the end his vigilance paid off and we had created a solid system.


...to boldly go where no one has gone before...

I have emphasized the more story-oriented content of the game in this article because being a ship battle game that seamlessly incorporates those less tangible aspects is, in many ways, what makes Star Trek: Fleet Captains different. It's also what made the project so ambitious.

Trying to combine some of the best aspects of miniatures games, card games, board games, and drafting games into a single system that evokes a wide spectrum of one of the most complex and challenging intellectual properties in science fiction was no simple task. Once Mike and I had finished our final proposal, turning the results over to Bryan Kinsella, whose job it was to direct a more robust testing and revision cycle on the game and shepherd it through the production cycle, was like sending your kid to college – not knowing how the experience would change it and hoping you'd done a good enough job as a parent that everything would turn out okay.

Fortunately, Bryan turned out to be an excellent influence from both a design and development standpoint. He was meticulous, collaborative, and constructive – and the revisions he came back with were all perfectly reasonable, grounded in solid testing concerns, mechanically sound, practical from a production standpoint, and mindful of the original design's intent. And that, let me assure you, is no easy set of needs to juggle. The fact that the resulting game has been so well received by the gaming public is a tremendous validation, and makes me proud of the work all three of us did to make Star Trek: Fleet Captains a reality.

So now the game is in your hands, the players' hands, where it will continue to evolve from the game we made into the game you want it to be. We just create a framework – you make it tell a story. That's where the real adventure is, and I can't wait to see how this episode turns out.

Cheers!

Ethan Pasternack has been making games with WizKids since 2001. These days he can be found making mobile games at Z2Live by day, but by night he still prowls the badlands of the tabletop as a game design mercenary.

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79 Comments
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Mark Horn
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Thanks. Can't wait to pick this one up!
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  • Posted Mon Sep 5, 2011 6:42 am
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Ok, I would really like to like ST: Fleet Captains. I like the design, BUT please, explain me the theme of a federation fleet containing Enterprise-A, Enterprise-D, Enterprise-E and a Miranda-Class ship??? So, ships from different centuries are in the same fleet!!!

Sorry for being abrupt, but I am really annoyed about that. Especially also because I nearly can't play ST:Expeditions with those bad characters from JJ Abrams movie.
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  • Posted Mon Sep 5, 2011 7:00 am
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Mark Horn
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Yowza. THAT'S the hangup? So if it was the greatest game ever made, that'd keep you from enjoying it?
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  • Posted Mon Sep 5, 2011 7:30 am
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♫ Eric Herman ♫
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vorakesh wrote:
Ok, I would really like to like ST: Fleet Captains. I like the design, BUT please, explain me the theme of a federation fleet containing Enterprise-A, Enterprise-D, Enterprise-E and a Miranda-Class ship??? So, ships from different centuries are in the same fleet!!!

Sorry for being abrupt, but I am really annoyed about that.


Let it go. It's your chance to have Babe Ruth, Johnny Bench and Ichiro Suzuki on the same team.

From what I've seen and read so far, this game looks fantastic. Thank you for the great insight into the game design.
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  • Posted Mon Sep 5, 2011 7:30 am
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Troy Westblade
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Isn't Star Trek full of time anomalies?

Besides, I'm quite sure if it bothers you that much, you could just leave out ships from some time periods for each game.
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  • Posted Mon Sep 5, 2011 7:34 am
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Ted Duby
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Grudunza wrote:
vorakesh wrote:
Ok, I would really like to like ST: Fleet Captains. I like the design, BUT please, explain me the theme of a federation fleet containing Enterprise-A, Enterprise-D, Enterprise-E and a Miranda-Class ship??? So, ships from different centuries are in the same fleet!!!

Sorry for being abrupt, but I am really annoyed about that.


Let it go. It's your chance to have Babe Ruth, Johnny Bench and Ichiro Suzuki on the same team.

From what I've seen and read so far, this game looks fantastic. Thank you for the great insight into the game design.


Being from Germany, he would probably better appreciate the analogy of Pele, Maradona, and Messi...
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  • Posted Mon Sep 5, 2011 8:05 am
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Yep wondered who those dudes where...(baseball perhaps?)
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  • Posted Mon Sep 5, 2011 8:35 am
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David Sims
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vorakesh wrote:
Ok, I would really like to like ST: Fleet Captains. I like the design, BUT please, explain me the theme of a federation fleet containing Enterprise-A, Enterprise-D, Enterprise-E and a Miranda-Class ship??? So, ships from different centuries are in the same fleet!!!

Sorry for being abrupt, but I am really annoyed about that. Especially also because I nearly can't play ST:Expeditions with those bad characters from JJ Abrams movie.


Take a breath, it's a game. And the movies are just movies.

I for one am happy to have fun with a wide range of characters in one game rather than have to buy 10 limited games just so we don't have any characters present at the wrong time.

Life's too short to sweat the small stuff.
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  • Posted Mon Sep 5, 2011 9:14 am
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Careful, this is Star Trek you're talking about.... Some serious dudes out there.
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  • Posted Mon Sep 5, 2011 9:25 am
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Conrad
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Grudunza wrote:
Let it go. It's your chance to have Babe Ruth, Johnny Bench and Ichiro Suzuki on the same team.

From what I've seen and read so far, this game looks fantastic. Thank you for the great insight into the game design.


Tipped because I wasn't expecting a Johnny Bench reference on BGG this morning.

This game looks really exciting. I haven't played ST:E yet, mostly because everyone I know who's played it has at best just shrugged when I asked them how they liked it, and also because I'm not a fan of the Pandemic mode of co-ops. The franchise has been calling out for a game as in-depth and graphically pretty as this for aaaaages.
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  • Edited Mon Sep 5, 2011 9:33 am
  • Posted Mon Sep 5, 2011 9:31 am
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Lee Fisher
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When is this hitting stores?
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  • Posted Mon Sep 5, 2011 2:09 pm
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Bart Brunscheen
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Just preordered
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  • Posted Mon Sep 5, 2011 2:56 pm
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Dan Raspler
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vorakesh wrote:
Ok, I would really like to like ST: Fleet Captains. I like the design, BUT please, explain me the theme of a federation fleet containing Enterprise-A, Enterprise-D, Enterprise-E and a Miranda-Class ship??? So, ships from different centuries are in the same fleet!!!

Sorry for being abrupt, but I am really annoyed about that. Especially also because I nearly can't play ST:Expeditions with those bad characters from JJ Abrams movie.


Yes, an excellent point -- a burning question all long-term, die-hard Star Trek fans and gamers would love to have answered. Other Star Trek games (like Star Fleet Battles) have addressed the issue of the property's long "history". Star Fleet Captains seems so incredibly ambitious, perhaps different scenarios represent different eras...

I'd also love to read more about the actual combat. It seems that the designers incorporated the "clix system" in a terrific way... but I'm really curious what sort of tactical choices different ships provide to different captains, and how different ships interact when they're trying to destroy each other.
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  • Posted Mon Sep 5, 2011 3:08 pm
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Dan R. wrote:
I'd also love to read more about the actual combat. It seems that the designers incorporated the "clix system" in a terrific way... but I'm really curious what sort of tactical choices different ships provide to different captains, and how different ships interact when they're trying to destroy each other.

The rules are available for download if you want a detailed answer, but in short: ships make opposed die rolls modified by their weapons and shields. A hit raises your alert level normal > yellow > red. Higher roll margins score additional hits. Three hits and you're out. I am dead certain there will be cards to modify this though.
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  • Posted Mon Sep 5, 2011 3:26 pm
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After reading the rules through once I think its great they blended all the eras together. In the setup you choose your command deck (2 of which are Kirk and Picard) and you draft ships so you're free to compile ships into your fleet as you see fit. Over time with more factions and encounters I'm sure you can even pull out time era specific events to re-create an entire era series in your own way. Brilliant!

I think its fine just use the mix of ships you want... and think of the potential add-ons that could be produced for this title in the future.

Can't wait
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  • Posted Mon Sep 5, 2011 3:35 pm
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lfisher wrote:
When is this hitting stores?

The U.S. street date is September 21, 2011.
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  • Posted Mon Sep 5, 2011 3:35 pm
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kamchatka wrote:
Grudunza wrote:
Let it go. It's your chance to have Babe Ruth, Johnny Bench and Ichiro Suzuki on the same team.

From what I've seen and read so far, this game looks fantastic. Thank you for the great insight into the game design.


Tipped because I wasn't expecting a Johnny Bench reference on BGG this morning.


Still my favorite all-time player.
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  • Posted Mon Sep 5, 2011 3:51 pm
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Jiiri1 wrote:
Yowza. THAT'S the hangup? So if it was the greatest game ever made, that'd keep you from enjoying it?


Why wouldn't this be something people would be wondering about? Not that it will keep me from playing/buying the game, but it's a bit weird to have these various characters intermingling with one another. I know why they did it from a business standpoint, but it doesn't make much sense thematically.

I suppose there could be some backstory about anomalies or time portals or whatever. At least give us something, no matter how flimsy

Grudunza wrote:
kamchatka wrote:
Grudunza wrote:
Let it go. It's your chance to have Babe Ruth, Johnny Bench and Ichiro Suzuki on the same team.

From what I've seen and read so far, this game looks fantastic. Thank you for the great insight into the game design.


Tipped because I wasn't expecting a Johnny Bench reference on BGG this morning.


Still my favorite all-time player.


Wait... he was a baseball player? I thought he was a spray-paint salesman.

whistle
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  • Posted Mon Sep 5, 2011 5:36 pm
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This game was hardly on my radar but I did a demo at GenCon and bought it on the spot. It really is a great design that more completely captures the feel of Star Trek than any other Trek game I have ever played.

Thanks Ethan, Mike, and Bryan for putting in all the hard work and coming up with a truly brilliant game.
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  • Posted Mon Sep 5, 2011 5:40 pm
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W Eric Martin wrote:
lfisher wrote:
When is this hitting stores?

The U.S. street date is September 21, 2011.


Thanks, but I would rather have the stardate.
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  • Posted Mon Sep 5, 2011 6:24 pm
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dssims wrote:
vorakesh wrote:
Ok, I would really like to like ST: Fleet Captains. I like the design, BUT please, explain me the theme of a federation fleet containing Enterprise-A, Enterprise-D, Enterprise-E and a Miranda-Class ship??? So, ships from different centuries are in the same fleet!!!

Sorry for being abrupt, but I am really annoyed about that. Especially also because I nearly can't play ST:Expeditions with those bad characters from JJ Abrams movie.

I for one am happy to have fun with a wide range of characters in one game rather than have to buy 10 limited games just so we don't have any characters present at the wrong time.

I would just prefer a "deck building system" that allows you to play a game with the ships only from one time period (TOS or TNG). These ships should be balanced against each other. I don't know, if playing this way was playtested at all.

Sure, I can make a houserule about that, but that's not a good starting point for a game, IMO.
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  • Posted Mon Sep 5, 2011 7:46 pm
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derekjinx wrote:
Over time with more factions and encounters I'm sure you can even pull out time era specific events to re-create an entire era series in your own way. Brilliant!


I think that's what I was hoping for - maybe.

Could you build on that some?

I'm with vorakesh, that the anachronism of the different eras mixing drives me bonkers. It really completely eliminates the game from consideration for me, which is a shame, as it DOES sound kinda like a game I'd have been waiting for...

...BUT...

...if it's possible to sort out the various ships and decks, so that you could play a meaningful match that is 'pure TNG' or 'pure TOS/movies' (encounters, characters, and ships) and the game still worked...

Now, that would put it back on the 'buy' list. I'd prefer not to have to do that sorting-out, myself, but it's definitely not an insurmountable obstacle. A requirement of mixing eras *is*, though.
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  • Posted Mon Sep 5, 2011 8:21 pm
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Tom Vasel
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I guess I can never understand how people can accept a near-omniscient character, mirror universes, FTL travel, and time travel - and yet at the same time get upset when something doesn't "make sense" in their preferred universe.

For me, the ability to have Picard and Kirk in the same side is great! I think the baseball analogy above is perfect.

This game rocks the socks, folks. You gotta try it.
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  • Posted Mon Sep 5, 2011 10:02 pm
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Is that an offer to send me your copy Tom.... It would be nice to receive something for throwing our tea into the river....
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  • Posted Mon Sep 5, 2011 10:23 pm
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TomVasel wrote:
I guess I can never understand how people can accept a near-omniscient character, mirror universes, FTL travel, and time travel - and yet at the same time get upset when something doesn't "make sense" in their preferred universe.

For me, the ability to have Picard and Kirk in the same side is great! I think the baseball analogy above is perfect.

This game rocks the socks, folks. You gotta try it.


Ditto this. And also, Star Trek has like, the least consistent canon of any big sci fi universe. How is having Picard and Kirk in the same fleet too ridiculous to believe (they were even in the same movie!)? I mean, how many times can ships go faster than Warp 10 when warp 10 is SOMETIMES infinitely fast, sometimes just pretty fast, and sometimes just a warp number that they'll be able to go over in the future (faster than infinite?)?

I love Star Trek, and while I may not get this game, that sounds like about the most flimsy reason possible not to get the game. Why don't you just pretend Q cloned Kirk or something?
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  • Posted Mon Sep 5, 2011 10:26 pm
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brenton wrote:
Why don't you just pretend Q cloned Kirk or something?


Agreed. Perhaps there might have been some kind of connective backstory included in the rules, but regardless, it's easy enough to make one...

There they all were, in one sector of space; the Enterprise-A, Enterprise-D, Enterprise-E and a Miranda-Class ship... Comms were buzzing, alerts were sounding, and the crews from all of the ships were frantically checking for system anomalies, but it all made sense when they saw the same face appear on their screens. It was Q, and the words he said generated a palpable groan that could be felt across the vacuum of space; "Time for another test, humans."
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  • Posted Mon Sep 5, 2011 10:51 pm
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Just to clarify my position, I am mostly playing devil's advocate here.

TomVasel wrote:
I guess I can never understand how people can accept a near-omniscient character, mirror universes, FTL travel, and time travel - and yet at the same time get upset when something doesn't "make sense" in their preferred universe.


Come on, Tom... you don't expect a fantasy or SF universe to be INTERNALLY consistant with its logic?

All fantasy is "fantastic," but all fantasy usually creates its own series of rules on how the fantasy works. The good stories tend to stick with those rules, and the bad stories tend to disregard those rules. Suspension of disbelief allows us to accept a given set of working "rules" for things, and we're willing to go along with those things because we're buying into the fantasy world.

If this game is being billed as "a season of Trek in a box!", then we have to admit that there was no season of any Trek show that allowed such levels of intermingling. Yeah, there was the occasional guest appearance by OLD Kirk/Spock/Scotty, but they had to go out of their way to explain how it was possible. If the backstory in this game does the same thing, then cool... at least throw people a bone.

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For me, the ability to have Picard and Kirk in the same side is great! I think the baseball analogy above is perfect.


Which is fine for people who want to play a fantasy baseball league, but what about those who want to simulate the current season? The inclusion of all-time great players into the mix might cause them a bit of consternation.

Again, to be clear, I am most likely going to buy this game-- the "mixing" isn't a dealbreaker for me, but I can see how it might be for some. I don't think it's fair to mock those people who want a little bit of internal consistency. If there are ways to play the game that allow you to play only one specific era if you so choose, I think everyone would be happy.



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  • Posted Mon Sep 5, 2011 11:14 pm
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TheDarkKnight wrote:
W Eric Martin wrote:
lfisher wrote:
When is this hitting stores?

The U.S. street date is September 21, 2011.


Thanks, but I would rather have the stardate.

65221.5
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  • Posted Tue Sep 6, 2011 12:59 am
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Ralph T
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Just wondering about the Enterprise's power. Nine lives, on a roll of 12 the ship shows up in your reinforcements. A roll of 12 is a 1 in 36 chance, less than 3%. To be meaningful it should be a more common number like 7.
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  • Posted Tue Sep 6, 2011 2:04 am
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TomVasel wrote:
I guess I can never understand how people can accept a near-omniscient character, mirror universes, FTL travel, and time travel - and yet at the same time get upset when something doesn't "make sense" in their preferred universe.


Except those things are internally consistent. Near-omniscient being is near-omniscient. Mirror Universe has an opposite effect, where many of what is 'good' in our universe is 'evil' in theirs. Etc.

Again, really, the point is that there should be some explanation. It's that we *know* Kirk and Picard never served together, and yet, here they are.

What's that supposed to mean? If this was a pure Euro-game, with no real theme (or, rather, a purely pasted-on theme), that would be more forgivable because...well, there is no (much of, anyway) theme.

HERE, though...the theme is the thing. And the theme doesn't work. There is no 'Star Trek' with Kirk and Picard, and their ships, exploring the galaxy together. That's not 'Star Trek'.

At least, not without some kind of explanation. Heck, throw 'Q' in if you wanted to, in order to explain a galaxy where multiple timelines are merged together and still needs to be explored in order to prevent 'X' from happening (that, in fact, would work great to deal with this)...and that would even provide a more compelling second-stage 'end game' as a result.

But this? There is nothing...it's infuriating.

TomVasel wrote:
For me, the ability to have Picard and Kirk in the same side is great! I think the baseball analogy above is perfect.


Yes, but baseball has no story. 'Star Trek' is ABOUT the story - indeed, it's even discussed specifically as a major factor in the blog posting this thread started with.

A more accurate comparison would be taking Doctor Who and having him drive a Transformer in a Star Wars movie. I mean, Doctor Who is great, right? And so are the Transformers? And who DOESN'T love Star Wars? So, surely, *together* they must be naturally better than any of them on their own, right??

NO! At least, not to any AT gamer, who is playing *for* the theme. Maybe a Eurogamer, who looks at only the mechanic, could love a game like that if it was well designed.

TomVasel wrote:
This game rocks the socks, folks. You gotta try it.


Sorry, but with a theme botched this bad, I just can't get over that.

But, hey, as noted...it may be fixable. If you could cull down the set of cards/settings to just one timeframe, and that works...this might be fine!
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  • Posted Tue Sep 6, 2011 2:26 am
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Mac Senour
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I did a Star Trek miniatures game and I used the Micro Machine versions for the demo. The #1 complaint I had was that the ships weren't to scale. If you say the ships are "iconic" you better do it right...
 
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  • Posted Tue Sep 6, 2011 3:51 am
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XanderF wrote:
Again, really, the point is that there should be some explanation. It's that we *know* Kirk and Picard never served together, and yet, here they are.


Did you not see Star Trek:Generations?

Quote:
HERE, though...the theme is the thing. And the theme doesn't work. There is no 'Star Trek' with Kirk and Picard, and their ships, exploring the galaxy together. That's not 'Star Trek'.

At least, not without some kind of explanation. Heck, throw 'Q' in if you wanted to, in order to explain a galaxy where multiple timelines are merged together and still needs to be explored in order to prevent 'X' from happening (that, in fact, would work great to deal with this)...and that would even provide a more compelling second-stage 'end game' as a result.

But this? There is nothing...it's infuriating.


Personally I'd prefer to come up with my own explanation for the various time frame ships being together rahter than having one forced upon me. For example I just discovered that the IKS T'Ong, one of the Klingon ships in the game, put it's crew into stasis around Kirk's time and then they defrosted in Picard's time and thought they were still at war with the Federation. You could just presume that he same was done with Kirk's enterprise crew for this game.

For that matter Klingons (and even humans in the future) are so long-lived that they could conceivably work together. Of course that would require considering the game to be an 'alternate timeline' to the shows, but that virtually always needs to be done anyway as you can never guarantee that events in the game will mirror the show (and it would be boringly predictable if they did)

Quote:
But, hey, as noted...it may be fixable. If you could cull down the set of cards/settings to just one timeframe, and that works...this might be fine!


Yup, I just worked on a fix for guys like yourself. Here's a thread on it:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/7399003#7399003
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  • Edited Tue Sep 6, 2011 5:29 am
  • Posted Tue Sep 6, 2011 5:28 am
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XanderF wrote:
But this? There is nothing...it's infuriating.


Lighten up, Francis. Infuriating? Really?? It's a game. It's not a Star Trek TV series or movie. It's a game, loosely based on Star Trek particulars, and meant to allow for an amalgamation of the collective characters and elements, in order to play around with them in a "what if" scenario. "Q brings all generations of Star Trek together for an experiment" should be enough of a narrative jumping off point to have fun with this, if you absolutely need that, unless you really need everything spoon fed and an authorized script provided for your playtime.

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Yes, but baseball has no story.


Sure it does. Played out in a much different way than a TV series, with typically longer arcs and developments, but there is narrative there and a structure that allows for memorable "plots."

The stories of baseball aren't the point, though, nor those of Star Trek as you know it from the films and TV shows... it's the stories that the games you play of this particular incarnation will create. From Tom's review, it appears that this game will create some great stories. The game will... not the TV series or films... they've already done their job telling those stories and you can watch and enjoy those at any time. This is something different, and you can accept it or not and purchase it or not, but there's no need to expect it to be something that it doesn't need to be, or get infuriated by that expectation not being met.

Quote:
A more accurate comparison would be taking Doctor Who and having him drive a Transformer in a Star Wars movie. I mean, Doctor Who is great, right? And so are the Transformers? And who DOESN'T love Star Wars? So, surely, *together* they must be naturally better than any of them on their own, right??


That's not an apt comparison at all. Those are all different things entirely. But this is all Star Trek, and Captain Kirk and Captain Picard are both humans commanding starships, and they have relatively similar capabilities, command structures and technological possibilities. The main difference between them is a generation of time and a little bit of technology advancement, but even that isn't much of a difference in a broad sense. And it looks like the game does a great job of depicting some of those differences and allowing for them to co-exist (which, as someone already pointed out, they already did in the Generations film).
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  • Edited Tue Sep 6, 2011 6:46 am
  • Posted Tue Sep 6, 2011 6:22 am
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ralpher wrote:
Just wondering about the Enterprise's power. Nine lives, on a roll of 12 the ship shows up in your reinforcements. A roll of 12 is a 1 in 36 chance, less than 3%. To be meaningful it should be a more common number like 7.


I was thinking the same thing. The 1 time in a 100 that it actually happens will seem awesome, though.
 
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  • Posted Tue Sep 6, 2011 6:27 am
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PROFESSOR FRINK: In Episode BF12, you were battling barbarians while riding a winged Appaloosa, yet in the very next scene, you're clearly atop a winged Arabian! Please do explain it!

LUCY LAWLESS: A wizard did it.

-- "The Simpsons"
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  • Posted Tue Sep 6, 2011 6:37 am
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brenton wrote:
Why don't you just pretend Q cloned Kirk or something?


That is such an vile suggestion that I'm almost convinced you're trolling. But in the interests in keeping things cordial, I'll respond.

Personally, I can't stand the Next Gen crew and I have little or no interest in 90% of Trek history. I'm pretty much exclusively interested in the original series. Yes, I am an old crotchety bastard when it comes to this stuff.

I don't wish to hijack this thread with yet another TOS v. TNG debate... but Q in particular is a contemptible creation. If Q were central to the game I most definitely would not even play it.
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  • Posted Tue Sep 6, 2011 6:46 am
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Dan R. wrote:
I don't wish to hijack this thread with yet another TOS v. TNG debate... but Q in particular is a contemptible creation. If Q were central to the game I most definitely would not even play it.


Okay, so just imagine it was Trelane.
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  • Posted Tue Sep 6, 2011 6:50 am
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Grudunza wrote:
there's no need to expect it to be something that it doesn't need to be, or get infuriated by that expectation not being met.


Don't you realize what an arrogant thing that is to say?

The guy is obviously a purist, and he's lucky enough to feel strongly about something fanciful. Your judgment presumes you know better... but you don't.

Enjoy the version of the property that you enjoy. Why not let others vent their spleens at the heavens? Do you really think you're helping resolve his complaint by telling him he shouldn't have the complaint?

Grudunza wrote:
Okay, so just imagine it was Trelane.


Fair point, but no thanks; I've never liked stories about omnipotence motivated by caprice. Of course, Trelane wasn't the relentlessly recurring institution that Q was in the Picard show...

Either way, it seems that Ethan and Mike have imagined an extremely ambitious game and then taken pains to get it right. I'm really psyched to check it out.
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  • Posted Tue Sep 6, 2011 9:05 am
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Grudunza wrote:
there's no need to expect it to be something that it doesn't need to be, or get infuriated by that expectation not being met.
Dan R. wrote:
Don't you realize what an arrogant thing that is to say?


How is that "arrogant?" He's expecting that this game must follow the history of the Star Trek series and is infuriated by that... It doesn't need to. Simple as that. The history of the Star Trek series is the history of the Star Trek series, and that's terrific... I'm a huge fan of that. But this is a completely different property, a game, that can take its own license with the material if it wants to, and does, so that it can tell its own kind of stories.

This game was never advertised or presented as being anything but an amalgamation of all different generations of Star Trek. Any expectation of something different is not an accurate expectation. I see new games coming out all the time and I might be excited by the theme or title but then I read more about it and realize, eh, that's not the direction I was hoping for. I shrug and move on. I don't get infuriated because I expected it to be something different. And as Tom V. and others have said, there is enough within the ST universe to justify such an occurrence, via time travel or omnipotent beings (whether Q or Trelane or whoever), or easily can be justified with just a little imagination.

Quote:
The guy is obviously a purist, and he's lucky enough to feel strongly about something fanciful.


He's lucky enough to get "infuriated" by this? Really??

Quote:
Enjoy the version of the property that you enjoy. Why not let others vent their spleens at the heavens? Do you really think you're helping resolve his complaint by telling him he shouldn't have the complaint?


As you say, this is something "fanciful," and IMO emotions like "infuriated" and "very annoyed" do not really belong in a discussion about the theme of a game like this, especially when it's unnecessary as has been demonstrated, and reflective of an unrealistic expectation about what someone thinks the game should have been. I think I gave a good response to his post, responding to the story aspects and such, and if he can read and consider that with reason, and not be blinded by infuriated rage, he might just shrug and say, okay yeah, this game will tell its own stories and it's okay if they're not exactly 100% compatible with the stories I know from the TV series. It's okay... It's okay...

Grudunza wrote:
Okay, so just imagine it was Trelane.
Dan R. wrote:
Fair point, but no thanks; I've never liked stories about omnipotence motivated by caprice.


So now you're saying that you'd rather there not be something in this game (omnipotent characters like Q and Trelane) that is a definite part of Star Trek history and lore. I realize you don't have the same infuriation about this as Xander, but your original post agreed with Viktor85, who was "really annoyed" by the supposed anachronism of the different generations of ships presented in the game. Do you see how this could easily become a double standard?

There is a lot of great detail in this game, but it is still very abstracted and still an illusion, as all games are (and TV shows). It could not and should not be expected by reasonable people to adhere to all possible aspects of the fictional license it is based on. How boring would the game Battlestar Galactica be if the character of (non-Cylon) could not potentially be a Cylon in the game? "But it didn't happen that way!!!" So what... It's fun to imagine if it could, and the game is great because of that possibility. This ST game seems to have an abundance of possibilities, and IMO that's a wonderful thing. The Star Trek universe and canon allows for a great wealth of possible situations, some of which have combined different generations of time and involved omnipotent beings messing around with things. If someone is a real Star Trek "purist," why wouldn't they be open to that and use that as a premise for this game, if they need one?
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  • Edited Tue Sep 6, 2011 10:16 am
  • Posted Tue Sep 6, 2011 10:03 am
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I'm amazed no one has complained yet about how quickly the colonies and starbases are established.

Also, I expect the reason they decided to combine all series was simply because focussing on only one series would have narrowed the target audience too much and proved too cost-ineffective (essentially having to produce a different game for each series). Choose TNG, and you alienate the TOS fans, and vice-versa.

This way you only alienate the weirdos who can't get over the fact that the game is just an abstraction of the ST universe.
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  • Edited Tue Sep 6, 2011 3:21 pm
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ralpher wrote:
Just wondering about the Enterprise's power. Nine lives, on a roll of 12 the ship shows up in your reinforcements. A roll of 12 is a 1 in 36 chance, less than 3%. To be meaningful it should be a more common number like 7.


Or 9.
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  • Posted Tue Sep 6, 2011 4:52 pm
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But after all this Trekkie stuff it still is a fun game that will pass an enjoyable gaming session.... right... right....RIGHT? shake
 
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  • Posted Tue Sep 6, 2011 4:56 pm
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Ethan Pasternack
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I understand the gut reaction, I really do, but I also think you might be overlooking how flexible time is in the Star Trek universe.

I can recall at least two NextGen episodes right off the top of my head that had multiple Enterprises in the same place at the same time, one with three different Enterprise-Ds, and one with the Enterprise-D and the Enterprise-C. I've seen the original Enterprise orbiting Earth in 1962, a Bird-of-Prey parked in 1986 San Francisco, I've seen Kirk and Picard in the same movie, and I've seen Spock in like 3 different timelines including the JJ Abrams movie - I guess my point is that crossing the streams a little is not as farfetched as it might seem at first.



But even if there were no continuity reasons to allow the old Enterprise and the new Enterprise to hang out, the only thing standing in your way of enforcing a more rigid time period system is the way we randomized setup - and revising that overlay to suit your own play style will not break the game.

Let me explain.

The setup rules were designed to randomize the play experience and promote maximum replayability in a 1-1.5 hour timeframe. They are not, however, the only way to play. As long as you are playing with the an equal number of cards and equal point values of ships, the game's basic engine scales just fine to tell as narrow or as broad a story as you want to.

We designed the game engine so that you can play in a wide variety of scenarios - you could each take one ship and one deck and lay out 10 tiles and have a 20 minute duel, or you could play with every ship and every card and every tile and play for the whole day.

This game is ripe for scenario creation, and I think it's perfectly appropriate for players who are bothered by crossed streams to create subsets of the components that suit their particular sensibilities. As long as everyone at the table agrees to a change, game on!

I guess what I'm trying to say is that this is your game just as much as it is ours - so feel free to experiment to find the way you like to play the best, and have fun with it in whatever way you see fit!

-Ethan
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  • Posted Tue Sep 6, 2011 5:33 pm
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epasternack wrote:
As long as you are playing with the an equal number of cards and equal point values of ships, the game's basic engine scales just fine to tell as narrow or as broad a story as you want to.


Those were the words I was hoping to read. Thanks, Ethan.
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  • Posted Tue Sep 6, 2011 5:45 pm
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Ethan Pasternack
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Glad I could help!
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  • Posted Tue Sep 6, 2011 5:52 pm
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TomVasel wrote:
I guess I can never understand how people can accept a near-omniscient character, mirror universes, FTL travel, and time travel - and yet at the same time get upset when something doesn't "make sense" in their preferred universe.


Maybe because a given ST episode provides a context for "a near-omniscient character, mirror universes, FTL travel, and time travel" while this game doesn't provide a context for multiple Star Trek ships existing at the same time. Considering the attention to detail that the designers paid to theme this is a noticeable omission for some people.
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  • Posted Tue Sep 6, 2011 5:55 pm
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epasternack wrote:
I understand the gut reaction, I really do, but I also think you might be overlooking how flexible time is in the Star Trek universe.

I can recall at least two NextGen episodes right off the top of my head that had multiple Enterprises in the same place at the same time, one with three different Enterprise-Ds, and one with the Enterprise-D and the Enterprise-C. I've seen the original Enterprise orbiting Earth in 1962, a Bird-of-Prey parked in 1986 San Francisco, I've seen Kirk and Picard in the same movie, and I've seen Spock in like 3 different timelines including the JJ Abrams movie - I guess my point is that crossing the streams a little is not as farfetched as it might seem at first.



But even if there were no continuity reasons to allow the old Enterprise and the new Enterprise to hang out, the only thing standing in your way of enforcing a more rigid time period system is the way we randomized setup - and revising that overlay to suit your own play style will not break the game.

Let me explain.

The setup rules were designed to randomize the play experience and promote maximum replayability in a 1-1.5 hour timeframe. They are not, however, the only way to play. As long as you are playing with the an equal number of cards and equal point values of ships, the game's basic engine scales just fine to tell as narrow or as broad a story as you want to.

We designed the game engine so that you can play in a wide variety of scenarios - you could each take one ship and one deck and lay out 10 tiles and have a 20 minute duel, or you could play with every ship and every card and every tile and play for the whole day.

This game is ripe for scenario creation, and I think it's perfectly appropriate for players who are bothered by crossed streams to create subsets of the components that suit their particular sensibilities. As long as everyone at the table agrees to a change, game on!

I guess what I'm trying to say is that this is your game just as much as it is ours - so feel free to experiment to find the way you like to play the best, and have fun with it in whatever way you see fit!

-Ethan


It's also possible to rewrite the entire ST cannon -as JJ Abhrams did- but the players need to buy into it. Most folks seem to have.
 
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  • Posted Tue Sep 6, 2011 5:58 pm
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JVKhoury wrote:
ralpher wrote:
Just wondering about the Enterprise's power. Nine lives, on a roll of 12 the ship shows up in your reinforcements. A roll of 12 is a 1 in 36 chance, less than 3%. To be meaningful it should be a more common number like 7.


Or 9.

I think the fact the ship comes back at all is probably a pretty powerful occurrence. No need to get silly with how often it comes back.
 
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  • Posted Tue Sep 6, 2011 6:00 pm
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Paperbag wrote:
JVKhoury wrote:
ralpher wrote:
Just wondering about the Enterprise's power. Nine lives, on a roll of 12 the ship shows up in your reinforcements. A roll of 12 is a 1 in 36 chance, less than 3%. To be meaningful it should be a more common number like 7.


Or 9.

I think the fact the ship comes back at all is probably a pretty powerful occurrence. No need to get silly with how often it comes back.


Yeah, but rolling boxcars is a 1 in 36 chance... whereas the Enterprise seems to get out of life-threatening, last-second-until-certain-death situations on a weekly basis. I think rolling a 9 (a 1 in 9 chance instead of 1 in 36) would still be rare enough but still give more of a hope shot than a 12, and also be more fitting to the "9 Lives" title. It would probably be too powerful if it could keep on happening, but how often is one ship likely to die in this game, anyway? I don't know. But you're also highly unlikely to roll a 9 twice in a row for that situation (perhaps even more unlikely to do so than getting double sixes to begin with?), so I think it would be okay. But maybe the Enterprise-E is particularly strong in comparison to other ships, so even a 1 in 9 chance of returning is a bit more than would be acceptable for the sake of balance.
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  • Posted Tue Sep 6, 2011 6:15 pm
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I think I'd like for the mission and encounter decks to have a thematic structure. (if that could be done without limiting replay value) From what I can tell it seems to be a random assortment of, "conduct a sensor sweep," and then maybe "inflict a few points of damage on a random enemy ship" all for no apparent reason. That's my main concern. Correct me if I'm wrong.. I haven't thoroughly researched this game.
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  • Edited Tue Sep 6, 2011 7:17 pm
  • Posted Tue Sep 6, 2011 6:33 pm
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Ethan Pasternack
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While the encounters are 100% thematically based (I think you'll quite enjoy them, actually), the mission decks are not - they are indeed generic mission "components" rather than specific story-line missions.

The reason for this is manyfold - it allows players to create their own mission narrative instead of simply reading a story off a card, the randomization keeps the play experience varied from game to game, it permits randomized fleets to generate ship-appropriate missions, etc - all stemming from an underlying intent of the game that may not be entirely clear. It also may not be what you want in a Trek game, but I want to clarify it anyway.

-

The intent of this game is not to recreate a specific storyline, or even a specific set of storylines. It is to provide players with the opportunity to create their own storylines that can feature all kinds of elements of the Trek canon. Most importantly, it does this all without having to designate a player to write a story in advance like an RPG does. It supports the idea of doing so via pre-generated scenarios, but the engine allows players to commit the amount of time and level of investment that they want rather than thrust one upon them they may not agree with.

We give you all the pieces - the ships, the characters, encounters, environments, mission parameters - without proscribing how they are to be combined. In this way you get a different episode every time you play, one that you're very unlikely to have experienced exactly that way before, so that you can create the story as you go, using your own knowledge of the canon to connect the dots and create a cool narrative that is new each and every time.

Sure, it won't always work - but that happens in the shows too. There are episodes of every Trek series (and certainly a few Trek movies IMHO) that just don't come together. But the counterpoint to that is that it is just as likely that you will end up telling an awesome story - and that statistically all the stories in between those two extremes will very likely be just fine.

Besides - for a game with this many possibile random variations, no explanation we could create would satisfy every contingency, especially with fans so deeply committed to the canon. There are literally millions of different combinations of ingredients that can go into a given play experience, and writing a single explanation to explain all of them is just as impossible as writing an explanation for each and every one of them.

-

So I hope that makes sense, M.S., or at very least explains our intent more clearly. I know that this kind of player-driven story generation is not for everybody, but I think that most fans of the franchise will enjoy it given the opportunity. Maybe I'll run into you at a con some day and we can play a game?



Cheers!

-Ethan
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  • Posted Tue Sep 6, 2011 7:29 pm
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Dan R. wrote:
epasternack wrote:
As long as you are playing with the an equal number of cards and equal point values of ships, the game's basic engine scales just fine to tell as narrow or as broad a story as you want to.


Those were the words I was hoping to read. Thanks, Ethan.


Indeed - those magical words sound like they fix all my concerns! Excellent to hear that the game works that way, that's perfect!!
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  • Posted Tue Sep 6, 2011 7:31 pm
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epasternack wrote:
So I hope that makes sense, M.S., or at very least explains our intent more clearly. I know that this kind of player-driven story generation is not for everybody, but I think that most fans of the franchise will enjoy it given the opportunity. Maybe I'll run into you at a con some day and we can play a game?



Cheers!

-Ethan


Makes sense to me and thank you for replying. I'll take you up on your offer if I get a chance to make my way to a con.

Having an RPG background (player not DM) and having played Starflight in the 80s I probably gravitate towards that style of game. Even still I'd love to play ST: Fleet Captains.
 
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  • Edited Tue Sep 6, 2011 8:06 pm
  • Posted Tue Sep 6, 2011 7:52 pm
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Grudunza wrote:
Paperbag wrote:
JVKhoury wrote:
ralpher wrote:
Just wondering about the Enterprise's power. Nine lives, on a roll of 12 the ship shows up in your reinforcements. A roll of 12 is a 1 in 36 chance, less than 3%. To be meaningful it should be a more common number like 7.


Or 9.

I think the fact the ship comes back at all is probably a pretty powerful occurrence. No need to get silly with how often it comes back.


Yeah, but rolling boxcars is a 1 in 36 chance... whereas the Enterprise seems to get out of life-threatening, last-second-until-certain-death situations on a weekly basis. I think rolling a 9 (a 1 in 9 chance instead of 1 in 36) would still be rare enough but still give more of a hope shot than a 12, and also be more fitting to the "9 Lives" title. It would probably be too powerful if it could keep on happening, but how often is one ship likely to die in this game, anyway? I don't know. But you're also highly unlikely to roll a 9 twice in a row for that situation (perhaps even more unlikely to do so than getting double sixes to begin with?), so I think it would be okay. But maybe the Enterprise-E is particularly strong in comparison to other ships, so even a 1 in 9 chance of returning is a bit more than would be acceptable for the sake of balance.


The other ship's power appears to be to cause 1 more damage 1 in 6 times when damaged and in a certain state. I don't think I've seen a game where special powers happen so rarely. Makes me wonder why they're even in the game.
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  • Posted Tue Sep 6, 2011 9:21 pm
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♫ Eric Herman ♫
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Quote:
The other ship's power appears to be to cause 1 more damage 1 in 6 times when damaged and in a certain state. I don't think I've seen a game where special powers happen so rarely. Makes me wonder why they're even in the game.


Right, and I agree they could seem to be more useful in general, but I suppose that maybe the abilities aren't that prominent because each ship is already different based on their Clix ratings. Usually special abilities are meant to distinguish characters, but they may not be as big a part of this game for that reason. Once in a while, they'll have an effect, but not often. And these are the ships we're talking about... they're not necessarily going to have something that unique about each of them beyond their general specs that would merit a very ongoing kind of special ability.
 
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  • Posted Tue Sep 6, 2011 9:38 pm
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Ethan, I want to say I am really excited about this game. Having read the rules through a cuple of times now it sounds really great. Good job on my design.

I do have a question though which hopefully you can answer for me. I know expansions with extra races have been mentioned, which is great (I want Romulans, Dominion, Cardassians, Borg, Ferengi and even lesser known races like the Xindi, Gorn and Breen), but will we also be getting extra ships and decks for the already released races in the game? The main reason I ask is that I'm very dissapointed with the lack of Deep Space Nine characters in the decks (my favourite series) and would like to hope we'll get Sisko, Dax and the rest later on.
 
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  • Posted Wed Sep 7, 2011 12:26 am
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XanderF wrote:
derekjinx wrote:
Over time with more factions and encounters I'm sure you can even pull out time era specific events to re-create an entire era series in your own way. Brilliant!


I think that's what I was hoping for - maybe.

Could you build on that some?

This would be nice, but I still would have to buy the expansions (if any come out) to have the possibility to play a thematic game. Considering the price of the game (+expansions) this would be too expensive for me.

XanderF wrote:

I'm with vorakesh, that the anachronism of the different eras mixing drives me bonkers. It really completely eliminates the game from consideration for me, which is a shame, as it DOES sound kinda like a game I'd have been waiting for...

THIS!

XanderF wrote:

...if it's possible to sort out the various ships and decks, so that you could play a meaningful match that is 'pure TNG' or 'pure TOS/movies' (encounters, characters, and ships) and the game still worked...

Now, that would put it back on the 'buy' list. I'd prefer not to have to do that sorting-out, myself, but it's definitely not an insurmountable obstacle. A requirement of mixing eras *is*, though.

Yeah, if someone buies the game, playtests a "thematic variant" and posts it, that would be nice, indeed. There are some geeks out there, who make good variants...

brenton wrote:
Why don't you just pretend Q cloned Kirk or something?

Why should I? The game designers SHOULD make a backgroud story that fits the gameplay! There is always the same argument, just imagine this and that...angry
By the way, even if Q would bring ships from different eras into one, this would create a complete different game. I think, it's clear.

Additions:

SommerMatt wrote:
TomVasel wrote:
I guess I can never understand how people can accept a near-omniscient character, mirror universes, FTL travel, and time travel - and yet at the same time get upset when something doesn't "make sense" in their preferred universe.


Come on, Tom... you don't expect a fantasy or SF universe to be INTERNALLY consistant with its logic?

All fantasy is "fantastic," but all fantasy usually creates its own series of rules on how the fantasy works. The good stories tend to stick with those rules, and the bad stories tend to disregard those rules. Suspension of disbelief allows us to accept a given set of working "rules" for things, and we're willing to go along with those things because we're buying into the fantasy world.

This! I was a fan of Star Trek in former times.

SommerMatt wrote:

If this game is being billed as "a season of Trek in a box!", then we have to admit that there was no season of any Trek show that allowed such levels of intermingling. Yeah, there was the occasional guest appearance by OLD Kirk/Spock/Scotty, but they had to go out of their way to explain how it was possible. If the backstory in this game does the same thing, then cool... at least throw people a bone.

(...)
Again, to be clear, I am most likely going to buy this game-- the "mixing" isn't a dealbreaker for me, but I can see how it might be for some. I don't think it's fair to mock those people who want a little bit of internal consistency. If there are ways to play the game that allow you to play only one specific era if you so choose, I think everyone would be happy.

Thank you, Matt!
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  • Edited Wed Sep 7, 2011 1:53 pm
  • Posted Wed Sep 7, 2011 8:39 am
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Antoine SAULIERE
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Will it be a french version ?
 
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  • Posted Wed Sep 7, 2011 1:10 pm
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Ethan Pasternack
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I don't really know how WizKids plans to expand the game - I'm just a freelance designer on this, remember - but the system would certainly support that expansion strategy if they chose to pursue it.

As for why we didn't put Sisko and Dax (some of my favorite characters as well) in there, it's pretty straightforward. We only had a limited number of cards we could put in this box, so we focused on plot arcs and storylines that formed a strong base for a Federation-Klingon theme. We covered a lot of the DS9 Klingon subplot in this set, but due to the show's heavily Dominion/Cardassian-centered plot, a lot of its best and most iconic content was saved for use when/if the game was expanded to include Dominion or Cardassian ships.

Personally, I'm all for it. I always liked DS9.
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  • Posted Wed Sep 7, 2011 8:01 pm
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Ethan Pasternack
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Viktor,

Rest assured, however you pare down or rearrange the game components to preserve a particular continuity, it will be playable at that scale. It may not play just like the standard format, but that's probably a good thing for you guys - as long as each side gets equal ship values and card counts the engine will support it just fine.

Don't worry - it is very difficult to actually break the game just by making a custom setup scenario, so feel free to experiment. Card count, ship count, card choices, etc are all variables you can tweak - your main concerns should be getting the play duration you want and ensuring an equal playing field for all players.

-

In general the play duration depends on three factors - the size of the fleets (in terms of points), the number of locations you lay out, and the target number of Victory Points. If the fleets are going to be small due to timeline constraints on ship selection, then you can extend the length of a game by either increasing the number of locations or the number of victory points (or both, which would be my recommendation). The only real requirement here is that both sides have even fleets.

Making things equal just involves equalizing card count and fleet size, that's it. For the cards, the only thing that actually matters is total card count - the little mini-decks we made were constructed simply to speed up the game's setup time, so if you want to do true deckbuilding then you can feel free to pull out all of the NextGen-specific cards and go to town making your own deck for the game out of what's left, card by card. Since your ships serve as resources for card use, what you put in a deck is entirely up to you. The only requirement is that both sides have an equal card count.

-

Anyway, I'm sure you'll see some recommendations come popping up in the forums over the next few weeks and months as players who share your desire for an era-pure play experience figure out what they consider to be ideal setups. And they'll be far closer to what you want than any recommendation I could make myself.

And that's as it should be - I firmly believe that a game is a living thing that should be as influenced by its players over time as it was by its designers at the beginning. It should evolve.

Now that it's begun to do so, I can't wait to see what y'all do with the place.



-Ethan
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  • Posted Wed Sep 7, 2011 8:44 pm
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epasternack wrote:
As long as you are playing with the an equal number of cards and equal point values of ships, the game's basic engine scales just fine to tell as narrow or as broad a story as you want to.

This saves the game for me. Thanks for the reply, Mr. Pasternack.
 
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  • Posted Wed Sep 7, 2011 8:51 pm
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epasternack wrote:
I don't really know how WizKids plans to expand the game - I'm just a freelance designer on this, remember - but the system would certainly support that expansion strategy if they chose to pursue it.

As for why we didn't put Sisko and Dax (some of my favorite characters as well) in there, it's pretty straightforward. We only had a limited number of cards we could put in this box, so we focused on plot arcs and storylines that formed a strong base for a Federation-Klingon theme. We covered a lot of the DS9 Klingon subplot in this set, but due to the show's heavily Dominion/Cardassian-centered plot, a lot of its best and most iconic content was saved for use when/if the game was expanded to include Dominion or Cardassian ships.

Personally, I'm all for it. I always liked DS9.


Thanks for the Response. I agree that Sisko and company would fit best into a Cardassian themed expansion. My big concern is that when we do get expansions that it will focus entirely on the new race and not give us an extras for the established races (especially the Federation since they are so central to the show and there are plenty of characters that still haven't been included).


Glad to hear that you like DS9 too, that definitely gives me hope.
 
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  • Posted Thu Sep 8, 2011 12:33 am
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Ethan:

Please stop posting. All of the folks who were refusing to buy the game were helping the rest of us obtain a copy before the first print run is sold out. You are not helping us.

Seriously,I understand the concerns of those who are so deeply into the lore that they want canonically correct play. I can relate; Enterprise -A and -D together does seem strange. So does the role of Klingons as adversaries in a -D universe. However, as much as I love Star Trek, I can let that go. All games have some level of abstraction. Furthermore, I have longed for a streamlined, thematic Star Trek game, and this seems to be the best so far. I can make up a back-story to cover the anomalies.

It's looking like an early Christmas this year!
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  • Posted Thu Sep 8, 2011 2:42 pm
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Ethan Pasternack
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Frank: LOL!! I'll try to clam up a little for ya.
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  • Posted Thu Sep 8, 2011 9:02 pm
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epasternack wrote:
Frank: LOL!! I'll try to clam up a little for ya.


Mr. Pasternack: Can you see any easy modifications/recommendations to make this a solo game?
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  • Posted Thu Sep 8, 2011 10:16 pm
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XanderF wrote:
A more accurate comparison would be taking Doctor Who and having him drive a Transformer in a Star Wars movie.


You just sold me on this game.
I didn’t get the baseball and association football comparisons but the Doctor zippin’ around in some sorta Landspeeder version of Chromedome…
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AWE SOME
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  • Posted Thu Sep 8, 2011 11:01 pm
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2097 wrote:
the Doctor zippin’ around in some sorta Landspeeder version of Chromedome…
Two words:
AWE SOME


Oh, geez, where did the THUMBS DOWN option go... shake

vorakesh wrote:
epasternack wrote:
As long as you are playing with the an equal number of cards and equal point values of ships, the game's basic engine scales just fine to tell as narrow or as broad a story as you want to.

This saves the game for me. Thanks for the reply, Mr. Pasternack.


Yup, me too. Sounds promising!
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  • Edited Fri Sep 9, 2011 6:56 am
  • Posted Fri Sep 9, 2011 6:55 am
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Ethan Pasternack
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Hmmmm... never really made a 1P game before. I guess it depends on what you want your victory condition to be, you know? What you want to _do_ in that solo game and how you want to measure your success. Obviously the goal would be to change as little about the rules as possible just for the sake of simplicity...

For instance, if you wanted to go old school you could lay out a nice big sector, take the old Enterprise and see how many VP you could get by the time you explored the entire sector (or died trying!). That score is then what you're trying to beat next time you play. For an easier version of the same scenario, you could give yourself the Enterprise-E. There are a few encounters or locations that might require removal, and you'd want to mostly pass on the Combat Missions, but otherwise it would require very few changes.

Is that kind of scenario what you meant?

-Ethan


ps: hey guys while i appreciate the show of respect, the only people who call me "Mr. Pasternack" are usually trying to sell me something or charge me with something, so feel free to just call me Ethan.

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  • Posted Fri Sep 9, 2011 8:47 pm
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As someone outside from the States like me, we didn't have the chance to watch every episode of Star Trek. One way or the other, I am not all that familiar with all the details of Star Trek universe. So that's not a problem to me if X shouldn't be found in Y. I am more concerned about the "voyage" element and "equal ships" count don't make the day for someone who is more interested in the "combat" element of different ship capabilities, arising from the addiction to Star Fleet Battles. The random creation of missions sounds interesting though.
 
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  • Posted Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:18 am
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Grudunza wrote:
XanderF wrote:
But this? There is nothing...it's infuriating.


Lighten up, Francis. Infuriating? Really??


THIS. i know this is BoardGameGEEK, and I love Star Trek too and get what you are saying, but sheesh. Roll with the Q explanation, get over it, and have some fun. infuriating? I have no sympathy for folks this hard to please.

The Dice Tower gang clearly love it, but im hoping for more details on the gameplay itself, as Im sure ill love the theme, but its pricey and may be too nerdy to get widespread play by my friendgroup. Wondering if anyone in my regular gamenight is a hardcore Trekkie...hmmm
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  • Posted Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:37 pm
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Pennsylvania
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So at some point one of the expansions will have all the Starfleet Battles Ships?

They are after all doing crossovers in Starmada,Victory By Any Means, ACTA, & BattleStations, so why not Fleet Captains?surprise

 
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  • Posted Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:50 pm
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Gary Carney
Canada

I think it's a little unfair to only think of SFB when it comes to what kind of games ADB have out there.

For one, there is the likes of Federation Commander, if SFB is too rules-heavy; plus the adaptations for Starmada and (soon) for A Call to Arms, to take things in other directions in terms of on-table gameplay.

Plus, there is really more of a divide between the combat side of things the various tactical games cover, and the exploration/civilian life/police work/etc stuff that is more at home in the various Prime Directive RPG games. I'd expect to see a lot more of the "strange, new worlds" stuff in a PD campaign than in SFB or FC.

While this new game will do its own thing, and hopefully be a success in doing so, it should be able to stand on its own merits without having to cherry-pick its comparisons with games from the Star Fleet Universe stable.
 
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  • Edited Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:09 pm
  • Posted Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:04 pm
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Ethan Pasternack
United States
Seattle
Washington
designer
Which is exactly my point - this game is definitely an attempt to bridge that divide.

I wasn't really cherrypicking comparisons so much as relating the story of how the game came to be. The directive was to make a ship game, I'd played SFB growing up and knew it to be cool but not particularly evocative of Trek, I knew why that was and how to solve for it, and thus SFB was the relevant point of comparison and the only one I really used. I by no means intended to diminish the more story-oriented ADB games - they just weren't involved in the genesis of this game.

Besides, I've never liked the fact that ST games in general - be they digital or tabletop, ADB or otherwise - tend to cater specifically to one or the other. I understand why it so often turns out that way, but I never liked it. I always wanted a play experience that handled both aspects the way the shows and movies do, but with a lower barrier-to-entry than an RPG.

And I think we ended up with a pretty solid result.

It's more story-focused and easier to grock than a pure tactical game, easier to get into than an RPG, but not as railroaded as a single-story board game. It's not superior to any of those other types of games - it's just different. It does, as you suggested, its own thing, fitting into a niche that I think (and hope) a lot of people will find appealing.
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  • Posted Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:47 pm
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Well I for one can't wait for this game release.... 1 week until UK release???? yes?
 
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  • Posted Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:12 pm
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Gary Carney
Canada

I seewhat you're getting at; I guess I can get a little caught up when I see something that translates in my mind as an "ADB = SFB from 20 years ago" comment, and miss part of the actual context it's being used in.

(I see it in other places, online at least; I guess the likes of FC and PD aren't nearly as well-known, though I wonder if the latter might change once Mongoose get the Traveller adaptation published.)

To echo mxslade2000's question, is there any room for some future agreement between yourselves and ADB (akin to that signed between them and Mongoose) which could allow for an adaptation of this game engine to the Star Fleet Universe?

Even if it had to be kept apart from the Franchise material (in the absence of some sort of Starfleet Command-esque compromise) there would be a lot of new material to draw from; with Klingon diplomatic cruisers, ISC peacekeepers, and Star Fleet Prime Teams one could add to the mix.
 
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  • Edited Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:24 pm
  • Posted Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:18 pm
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Jonathan Barrett
Canada

I tried a solo game similar to what you describe.

I took Voyager (seemed appropriate), drew mission cards, and placed the ship in the command area with 3 unexplored sectors. As the ship explored a sector I shuffled and placed more unexplored tiles around the current position.

It was pretty interesting to see how far I got. No combat, but the encounters can be tough. The Temporal Anomaly is what did me in at the end.

 
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  • Posted Sat Oct 1, 2011 11:49 pm
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Michael Gardner
United States
Kingston
Tennessee
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Ethan, I'm not sure you still check this, but I was wondering if you could share the game design decision behind making some of the missions unequal. Such as making two missions the same but with different vp awards or two missions with one sensor test higher than the other but with the same vp award.

Love the game.
 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:45 pm
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Chris J Davis
United Kingdom

Overtext pending moderation...
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Kirk Agathon wrote:
Ethan, I'm not sure you still check this, but I was wondering if you could share the game design decision behind making some of the missions unequal. Such as making two missions the same but with different vp awards or two missions with one sensor test higher than the other but with the same vp award.

Love the game.


I too would be very interested to know the reasoning behind this.
 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:49 pm
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Lee Sweeney
United States
ABQ
New Mexico
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What is the First Expansion?

Would really like to see them done in Teams, but that may prove too much for one.

Would Save DS9 as a Large one, but adding more Races, with a set of tiles, and cards would be great.

New Race
8-12 ships,
15 new Tiles,
4 New Command Decks,
20-30 new missions,
and 20-30 more Encounters.


Looking forward to more, please make them packed enough to be worth getting.

Lee

 
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  • Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:38 am
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