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Welborn Family Gaming

Welcome to Larry and Melissa's blog. We focus on two player gaming and gaming with our two children, ages 10 & 8. This blog will feature random musings, gaming reports and reviews from both of us. We will also post some non-gaming thoughts from time to time. Feel free to join in the discussions.
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Thousands of BGG’ers are Wrong…Cuba is MUCH harder than Puerto Rico

Melissa Welborn
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This afternoon we just had a marathon gaming session with Cuba, followed by Puerto Rico. I noticed that playing Cuba puts my nerves completely on edge. I have difficulty choosing a strategy and spend a good portion of the first part of the game completely befuddled about what to do.

The strategy I chose at last was to farm tobacco, convert them to cigars with the cigar factory, and have fun with them in the cigar café. That worked fine, but it was a very cash-poor strategy. I considered adding a bank or some other cash-generating machine, but needed two tobacco fields, and with the placement of the café and factory, I had few options to add another building.

In the end, I did well, scoring second. But how do I explain this overwhelming feeling that what I was doing wasn’t good enough? With Agricola, I know I need to fill all the spaces, have at least one of each animal, grain and vegetable... With Puerto Rico, I know I need to have an engine to generate coin to buy more buildings to earn points...With Cuba, there are so many ways to earn money and get points, I get overwhelmed.

So, from someone who can play Dominion with the best (Larry, of course), do marvelously well at train games, average at Stone Age and Agricola ... Cuba leaves me frustrated and stressed.
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Subscribe sub options Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:25 am
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Cuba is certainly a much more strategic game than Puerto Rico. You basically plan your whole approach right from the start and then make it happen as best you can. I can see how that would be stressful. One of the appeals of Puerto Rico is that decisions are simply presented and not too difficult to understand on the surface. It's accessible, notably tactical, but also very deep.

I would imagine that high-level play in Puerto Rico is much more demanding than high-level play in Cuba. But I would also imagine that Cuba is the more daunting game at first - for the reasons you mention.
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  • Posted Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:06 am
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Melissa Welborn
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JohnRayJr wrote:
Cuba is certainly a much more strategic game than Puerto Rico. You basically plan your whole approach right from the start and then make it happen as best you can. I can see how that would be stressful. One of the appeals of Puerto Rico is that decisions are simply presented and not too difficult to understand on the surface. It's accessible, notably tactical, but also very deep.

I would imagine that high-level play in Puerto Rico is much more demanding than high-level play in Cuba. But I would also imagine that Cuba is the more daunting game at first - for the reasons you mention.


Of course, the other issue with Cuba is that you can plan your strategy, but if someone else buys the building you need to fulfill it, you are out of luck in many cases due to the single nature of the buildings.
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  • Posted Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:10 am
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Aswin Agastya
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One thing that I like from Cuba is that it's both strategic and tactical. You can make a plan from the beginning, but you have to make tactical adjustments in mid game, or you're going to lose.

Depending on the game (player factors and law bill factors), both types of play (strategic or tactical) may win the game.
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  • Edited Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:10 am
  • Posted Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:32 am
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Steve Bauer
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Who said Puerto Rico is harder than Cuba? They both have a weight of 3.3.
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  • Posted Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:58 am
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Larry Welborn
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sbauer9 wrote:
Who said Puerto Rico is harder than Cuba? They both have a weight of 3.3.


I think that's her point. The weight is the same on this site but she feels that Cuba is the heavier game.
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  • Posted Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:05 am
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Steve Bauer
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Larry Welborn wrote:
sbauer9 wrote:
Who said Puerto Rico is harder than Cuba? They both have a weight of 3.3.


I think that's her point. The weight is the same on this site but she feels that Cuba is the heavier game.


I guess that makes since. They are a different kind of hard. Cuba is harder to play, it has more rules, more choices mor things going on. Puerto rico is harder to play well, almost 0 luck and very simple choices so each one has to be well thought out. Puerto Rico is much more chess like, which has a weight of 3.8.
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  • Posted Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:12 am
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Rik Van Horn
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Puerto Rico has always felt "scripted" to me versus Cuba which gives a much more varied playing experience.

I still believe the absolute worst gaming experience is to play PR with experienced PR players. They tend to be as obnoxious as anyone I've ever played with.
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  • Posted Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:31 am
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Lee Ambolt
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I am not yet really grasping Cuba at all, first of all, the 6 rounds of play just seem incredibly short, not short in the usual euro "you cant quite get enough done" way but in the "whoah hang on, this is actually just too short to really do anything!" I havent gotten my head round the role cards since it seems rare that we would ever want to not take the worker guy that gives you goods before the foreman who activates the buildings for example, and then use the market woman to get any goods in before you activate a building that uses goods or the guy that ships goods. And the cards and statutes, while interesting, dont seem that different really, maybe its just a 2P thing, but most of the time they affected both of us more or less the same, now and then you would be able to get the full 5VP swing, but it didnt feel tremendously exciting to do so. The shipping options also seemed rather obvious, ie not a lot to ponder, and you dont really have time to put together a chain of buildings. In comparison, Puerto Rico, while it may be more scripted for the experts, it certainly isnt for the beginning and intermediate players, and there really is a timeline where you can see how your choices are affecting you and coming to fruition (or not as the case may be).

I once got into a rather silly argument with Nate about Cuba and Puerto Rico, and while these games are superficially similar (or share similar features), they really are nothing alike, and Puerto Rico pisses on Cuba from a very, very, very great height indeed.

But as I said in the beginning, Cuba has somewhat eluded me so far, Puerto Rico "I get" (even though I still make lots of mistakes and am in no way a good player, I can see whats going on and feel it a lot more)

(PS, yeah Cuba looks a crap load nicer, no doubt!)
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  • Posted Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:59 am
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Melissa Welborn
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Interesting discussion! This whole thing started when our son wanted to know why I was so "stressed" during Cuba but not during Puerto Rico since they were so much alike. I felt, other than the basic picking of roles, that Cuba was much harder, and felt the difficulty level on BGG would reflect that. Imagine my surprise when Larry looked it up and said they were weighted equally! Of course, in my mind, Puerto Rico is just a longer, drawn-out version of San Juan, which I like, but that's another story for a different day.
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  • Edited Mon Feb 14, 2011 5:26 pm
  • Posted Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:21 pm
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I cant help wondering if familiarity with the games in question are having a bearing. Have you perhaps played Puerto Rico and/or Agricola way more and so that they just comes more naturally now having played it so often. Is that perhaps adding to your feeling for Cuba. I know for myself there are games I have played often enough that I can sit and play them almost on auto pilot which means almost zero stress.

I must hold up my hands and say that I haven't played Cuba at all, although this post has left me wanting to learn more about it.
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  • Posted Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:17 pm
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I dont think there is any stress in Cuba on the level I could understand Agricola for example, there the stress, even as an accomplished player is pretty much there the whole time, and PR I think is a lot more tense than Cuba. I didnt find Cuba stressful at all, but again this is a 2P experience, I found it pretty meh, and I really do want to like it. It just feels kind of boring....I am going to give it more chances but I could see the interest in PR and Agricola from the very first game and I think there is a lot more going on in both of those games
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  • Posted Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:53 pm
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ldsdbomber wrote:
I dont think there is any stress in Cuba on the level I could understand Agricola for example, there the stress, even as an accomplished player is pretty much there the whole time, and PR I think is a lot more tense than Cuba. I didnt find Cuba stressful at all, but again this is a 2P experience, I found it pretty meh, and I really do want to like it. It just feels kind of boring....I am going to give it more chances but I could see the interest in PR and Agricola from the very first game and I think there is a lot more going on in both of those games


Cuba 2-players game out of the box is a little dry. Most points are from shipping since there is no incentive to try other strategies. It's much better with 3, and excellent with 4. If you're going to play it with 2, make sure to block the 3rd port, and start with only single ship on the first port. But it's really nice that the game is playable with 2.

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I know for myself there are games I have played often enough that I can sit and play them almost on auto pilot which means almost zero stress.

I'm not that good of a gamer, but I don't ever think that I'd ever auto-pilot cuba. The variables in the game are game-changing enough.

Being the first player in cuba opens up a breadth of choices, especially if you're considering the coming ship and bills. Even then, you can't cover all the choices so that if you take the 'best', other player may take the '2nd best', which could very well be the 'best' in later turns, depending on the bills, coming ships, and the actions of other players. Not to mention the different plantation boards, which challenge you to rethink the positions for building your island, depending the strategy and the current game condition.

Points are tight, and it comes from many sources. There are points that will be shared among certain players, and you have to weigh the point you'll get individually, and the points you share with other players, so you don't help your most dangerous competitor.

Anyway, from what I write you know I love the game, so I may be biased
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  • Edited Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:50 pm
  • Posted Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:43 pm
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Lee Ambolt
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I am all ears for pushing this game up. For instance, what would you say about the role cards? It seems like there is little incentive to go away from the order of


worker (get goods)
seller (modify your stock)
builder (convert goods to points)
mayor (ship goods)

i mean, would you ever take the worker after activating the builder or mayor?

Maybe you just need time to "know" all the buildings, but you probably dont want to buiild all 6 buildings and cover all your plots do you, but then I think we only bothered building 1 or 2.

likewise the statute cards, we very rarely came to a situation where one player could get the full 5VP and the other one not.. sometimes, but it didnt feel like that was the result of cunning play saving the right voting card and picking the right card.



Anyway, theres something about the game thats keeping it on my shelf, I do want to like it so I will try the reduced shipping idea and try to get some more plays in to see the buildings in action a bit better.
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  • Posted Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:05 pm
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Melissa Welborn
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Katielou wrote:
I cant help wondering if familiarity with the games in question are having a bearing. Have you perhaps played Puerto Rico and/or Agricola way more and so that they just comes more naturally now having played it so often. Is that perhaps adding to your feeling for Cuba. I know for myself there are games I have played often enough that I can sit and play them almost on auto pilot which means almost zero stress.

I must hold up my hands and say that I haven't played Cuba at all, although this post has left me wanting to learn more about it.


That may be true, since Cuba is a relatively recent addition to our gaming family and I think I've only played it twice. I've only played Puerto Rico maybe two or three times, but it is very close to San Juan in methodology and I've played that one a lot. I think for me it goes back to the fact that there are so many strategies that I feel overwhelmed by the choices. Although, since our two kids love it, we may be playing it more often in the future.
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  • Posted Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:40 pm
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ldsdbomber wrote:
I am all ears for pushing this game up. For instance, what would you say about the role cards? It seems like there is little incentive to go away from the order of


worker (get goods)
seller (modify your stock)
builder (convert goods to points)
mayor (ship goods)

i mean, would you ever take the worker after activating the builder or mayor?

Well, I have, in numerous occasion. Take these examples.

You have 4 stuff that can fill a 2VP ship (and the 3VP ship probably). Because you are the first player, no other player bothers to harvest for the same ship (or they fill up the 3VP ship). So in the end of current turn you use foreman to put your stuff in the warehouse, and in the next turn, because you're not the first player, you have to use the mayor first to make sure you get the spots on the now 3VP ship.

Or when suddenly the stuff on the market becomes extremely cheap due to a market operation. If you have money, you'll want your trader to go first. Getting stuff for 1 or 2 pesos is pretty good return for your money. I've also been known for buying cigar/alcohol off the market to block the guy with cigar/alcohol factory. I only need two steps (trader/mayor) to do so, compared to his three (worker/foreman/mayor).

Sometimes with a dam you'll play foreman first before worker because you want to use the water. Personally this is a case of bad planning, but it happens.

And there's a lot more things. Since you've only played unmodified 2-players games with, most actions revolved around shipping goods.

Quote:
Maybe you just need time to "know" all the buildings, but you probably dont want to buiild all 6 buildings and cover all your plots do you, but then I think we only bothered building 1 or 2.

The good thing with a building is that it gives 2VP bonus in the end, just like when you use the architect's special action, and you get to use it. You do have to weigh up the resource field/plantation square. Some buildings can't compete at all in 2-players game (eg. bank or hotel), but become extremely valuable in 4-players game, when the competition for ship space is tight.

Quote:
likewise the statute cards, we very rarely came to a situation where one player could get the full 5VP and the other one not.. sometimes, but it didnt feel like that was the result of cunning play saving the right voting card and picking the right card.

Again, with more players, this will be an agonizing decision. And there's this funny thing in our group: the guy with the most vote from card is the one that usually spends the most money (just to make sure is what we've always been saying). Sometimes the betting is furious (especially if there's this guy with a lot of water and water subsidy), sometimes people let it go because the bill benefits everyone, sometimes a guy build a city hall (invoking groans at every parliament phase). It changes from game to game.

Quote:
Anyway, theres something about the game thats keeping it on my shelf, I do want to like it so I will try the reduced shipping idea and try to get some more plays in to see the buildings in action a bit better.

Try it with more players then.
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  • Edited Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:13 pm
  • Posted Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:09 pm
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Larry Welborn
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ldsdbomber wrote:
I am all ears for pushing this game up. For instance, what would you say about the role cards? It seems like there is little incentive to go away from the order of


worker (get goods)
seller (modify your stock)
builder (convert goods to points)
mayor (ship goods)

i mean, would you ever take the worker after activating the builder or mayor?

Maybe you just need time to "know" all the buildings, but you probably dont want to buiild all 6 buildings and cover all your plots do you, but then I think we only bothered building 1 or 2.

likewise the statute cards, we very rarely came to a situation where one player could get the full 5VP and the other one not.. sometimes, but it didnt feel like that was the result of cunning play saving the right voting card and picking the right card.



Anyway, theres something about the game thats keeping it on my shelf, I do want to like it so I will try the reduced shipping idea and try to get some more plays in to see the buildings in action a bit better.



The main reason you would change the order, touched on above, is because you need to get something done before another player takes advantage, such as loading the 3vp ship or buying cheap/selling espensive.

The 5 vp swing you speak of is huge in this game. That's another reason order of play of your cards is important. If you see a situation where the upcoming bills can either really help or hurt one player, you have to do everything in your power to get control of the Government to choose the two bills that become law.
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  • Posted Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:32 pm
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I think 4 players is the real sweet spot for this game. There isn't a scaling mechanism in the rules, as written, so the game is much tighter with 4 than with 2.
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  • Posted Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:33 pm
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Larry Welborn
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Katielou wrote:
I cant help wondering if familiarity with the games in question are having a bearing. Have you perhaps played Puerto Rico and/or Agricola way more and so that they just comes more naturally now having played it so often. Is that perhaps adding to your feeling for Cuba. I know for myself there are games I have played often enough that I can sit and play them almost on auto pilot which means almost zero stress.

I must hold up my hands and say that I haven't played Cuba at all, although this post has left me wanting to learn more about it.


Stress in Agricola never goes away.
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  • Posted Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:34 pm
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ldsdbomber wrote:
I am not yet really grasping Cuba at all, first of all, the 6 rounds of play just seem incredibly short, not short in the usual euro "you cant quite get enough done" way but in the "whoah hang on, this is actually just too short to really do anything!"


I've only played vanilla Cuba twice and it felt incomplete. I will never play it again without El Presidente (and 8 rounds). On one hand, I enjoy Cuba quite a lot with El Presidente, but on the other, it's hard not to feel a little ripped off when the game feels less like a "base set" and more like an unfinished product.

That said, we've never had a runaway victory in Cuba--the game stays tight to the end. Puerto Rico seems a bit more susceptible to runaway victories and/or stragglers.

I do think Puerto Rico is, overall, more fun. But I would agree that Cuba is harder.
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  • Posted Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:05 pm
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