The Hotness
Games|People|Company
Dominion: Dark Ages
Fantastiqa
Mage Knight: Board Game
Total War
Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)
Eclipse
Mice and Mystics
Dungeon Fighter
Collapsible D: The Final Minutes of the Titanic
Lords of Waterdeep
Agricola: All Creatures Big and Small
Libertalia
Android: Netrunner
Virgin Queen
The Lord of the Rings: Nazgul
A Game of Thrones: The Board Game (Second Edition)
Dominion
Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures Game
Infiltration
The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game
Among the Stars
Twilight Struggle
The Swarm
Agricola
1989: Dawn of Freedom
Goa
7 Wonders
Glory to Rome
Arkham Horror
Village
Ora et Labora
Battles of Westeros: House Baratheon Army Expansion
Through the Ages: A Story of Civilization
Thunder Road
Trajan
Zombicide
The Castles of Burgundy
7 Wonders: Cities
Ace of Spies
War of the Ring
Skyline
Space Alert
Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective
City of Horror
Race for the Galaxy
Dungeon Command: Sting of Lolth
Twilight Imperium (third edition)
Kingdom Builder
Le Havre
Battlestar Galactica

BoardGameGeek News

To submit news, a designer diary, outrageous rumors, or other material, please contact BGG News editor W. Eric Martin via email – wericmartin AT gmail.com
Recommend
84 
 Thumb up
0.06
 tip
 Thumb up

Designer Diary: Of Goats and Alcatraz

Rafał Cywicki
Poland
Cracow
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Cooperative games are usually created when people bored with negative interaction start making their own board games. Alcatraz: The Scapegoat was created when people who love negative interaction decided to make a cooperative game. Nice to meet you – we are the authors of Alcatraz, and we would like to tell you a few words about our game.

"Previously on Alcatraz: The Scapegoat" – Wait, a Goat?

If you haven't heard of our game before, here is a short summary:

Quote:
The players are prisoners planning an escape from the most famous prison in the world. But the plan has one weak point – it assumes that one prisoner will stay in as the eponymous scapegoat. Which one? The most useless one in the end.

What do you do not to be the scapegoat? You fingerpoint the victim, you lie, you manipulate and betray. And if you are chosen to be the scapegoat – you upset plans, steal items, blackmail other players and inform the guards.

Sounds like fun, doesn't it?

The Scapegoat – an Open Traitor

The scapegoat is the most innovative mechanism in the rules of Alcatraz. It is responsible for non-standard game dynamics, loads of negative interaction, and a whole spectrum of emotions that the players may experience, from the joy of triumph through a feeling of being used and betrayed, up to anger and the thirst for revenge.

During the game, you vote for the scapegoat each round. The current scapegoat also takes part in the voting and – somewhat importantly – is the one who breaks ties. The voting is an equivalent of planning made in the yard in the "Prison Break" series. This is also the time when the action doesn't take place on the board anymore; it takes place above the board in the form of: "You can trust me", "I have a plan, but I won't say it aloud because the scapegoat will hear", and "If you choose me, I will play a blackmail card".

The scapegoat is a euphemism for the loser who isn't a part of the plan in a given round. If the group carries out a task bringing them closer to escaping, the scapegoat stays where he was (and doesn't get a reward). This is why you usually do everything not to become that goat.
The goat, of course, will try to prevent the rest of the group from carrying out tasks by stealing items, playing blackmail cards, and moving guards.

But the scapegoat doesn't want to screw up completely. There will be another vote in a while, right? And the most useless prisoner will be chosen – or the most harmless one.

Don't Harm Others If You Don't Benefit

Thanks to the special dynamics mentioned above, the game play is unique:

• The scapegoat harms others, but only to the extent that it makes somebody else a better candidate for the goat.
• The players carry out tasks, but nobody wants to be obsolete in the end.

That second aspect in particular can create some fascinating cases. The following situation happened during one of the first test sessions: One player had all the items and met all the conditions required for completing a task, but he said, "I won't do this. If I sacrifice all my resources, I will become the Scapegoat soon." After these words were said, we knew that what we did was good (or rather bad – but in a good way).

Another situation: The whole team gathered together, collected their items, and according to some engaging plan, delivered a set required to complete a task to one player. It was enough to spend an action to complete the task. What did he do? He took the items and waited until the next round. Why risk becoming the goat? Pure evil – and genius.

But the number of instances of such behavior is limited. It's not certain that anyone will escape. If the last guard enters the board, the plan fails and everybody loses, including the current scapegoat, so it's important to cooperate and carry out the plan, while keeping the risk in mind.

The Goat Blackmails

The idea behind Blackmail cards is as old as the concept of our game. After all, they are a perfect evil addition to an evil game.

Each Blackmail card is a one-time ability that may be activated by the scapegoat. It always involves negative effects, sometimes powerful enought to slow down the entire team for a round; usually playing one card is enough to upset the whole task. But more often it serves the purpose of threatening other players: "Don't choose me as the scapegoat, or I will play it." And it goes so every round until somebody goes to the Chapel and cancels the card or until the players decide that the blackmailer is too impudent and make him the scapegoat anyway, accepting the risk connected with this. In such situations, it often turns out that the blackmailer isn't really that keen to carry out his threats.

In order to get a card, you must go to the Warden's office and spend an action. Doing so is easy most of the time, depending on the arrangement of locations and the number of guards, but you spend precious actions without getting closer to victory. And what if all the players have Blackmail cards? Everyone threatens everyone instead of completing tasks – and the time is ticking out quickly...

Consistent Scapegoat

When we played with the team of Kuźnia Gier publishing house, one drawback of the game was pointed out: The players may just have it in for one person and choose this person as the scapegoat every round. Against all logic, just don't let him escape. We've never played any games this way, but there are many different people in this world...

The solution we suggested is to give extra actions to the scapegoat if the same player is chosen more than once in a row. Later, we also came to the conclusion that this mechanism helps to forgive the mistakes of weaker players. It stayed in the final version.

Also the scapegoat's "vote and a half" may sound strange, but this inequality makes it easier to change the scapegoat with four participants in play. Only two people need to agree to choose a new goat, with one of those being the current scapegoat.

Screws

Guards play two roles in the game:

• They make it harder to use rooms (and, consequently, to escape) depending on their number in a particular location.
• They work like the clock in the game; a new guard appears on the board each round, and the arrival of the 20th guard announces the last round of the game.

An interesting thing about putting the "clock" on the board and not outside as a track of some kind is that the game becomes naturally more difficult with each round: One guard in a room doesn't change anything; two guards make the most important actions more time-consuming; three guards make them impossible; and four block the location completely.

However, the players also have ways of coping with guards. By spending one action, they may start a riot and draw a guard from an adjacent location to their room. They may release a false announcement through a radio and move two guards to a different place. And if they have enough cash, they can just bribe a guard.

Abstract Alcatraz

On a high level of abstraction, the game mechanisms look like that:

• I, the player, want to be the one who escapes, so I have to be indispensable for the team or too dangerous to be left alone – every single round.
• If I am the Scapegoat, I do everything to prevent completing a task. And then everything not to be chosen again in the next round.
• We, the team, want to escape, but every single person has to earn his place in the escaping party. If we all delay things for too long, we all lose.

The question is, will only one person lose, or will the whole group lose? As for the idea that everyone escapes – that's out of the question.

Atmosphere of the Game

Nobody in Alcatraz wore orange jumpsuits, but we like them. We had to sacrifice a few historical facts for the sake of the atmosphere. As in the movies, if there is a choice between "cool" and "realistic", the choice is obvious. Without doubt accusations about not being historical will appear, but that's okay as long as you like the game.

That said, there's another reason why we avoided strict realism. The first prototype was prepared based on real photos of Alcatraz, which were in sepia or black-and-white. It was so gloomy! Very, very gloomy. Maybe even too gloomy for a prison game. Just imagine the abandoned post-industrial interiors of a ruined prison. Such a scenery makes you feel much more serious about everything you do.

We decided on a different look – serious, but not too serious; even a bit comic-like. Hey, it's only a game.

Why Should You Play Alcatraz?

We've played Ghost Stories, Pandemic, Shadows over Camelot and Battlestar Galactica. The first two games gave us the most fun while we were learning the rules. Later on, only the player who knows the game best really has fun, and this person simply tells the rest how to spend their actions in the most effective way. In "traitor games" like the second two, suspicions are quite fun, and the moment when you point your finger at the traitor – brilliant. But this happens once, maybe twice per game.

Alcatraz is different. Here everyone thinks independently and cares only about themselves. If you think for someone else, you do it only to predict their movements, and you point fingers every turn.

Alcatraz is not a clone of any of the games mentioned above. It has its own unique mechanism (the Scapegoat) that you won't find anywhere else, so it's worth at least giving it a try.

We have to warn you though: Alcatraz is not for everyone. In this game you will certainly get cheated a few times and you should lie quite often as well. If you are a rather peaceful player or a group altruist, remember that the others will use you. When you play Alcatraz, the person who is your friend in one round will turn into an enemy in the next one. If you want to be effective, you cannot take offense easily or have a grudge against other players; you have to be flexible and choose your companions according to what's happening on the board. Sometimes this will mean that you have to cooperate with a person who lied to you, robbed you, and took your reward for completing a task.

With that said, we recomend you try the game. We won't be upset if you don't like it, but we will be very pleased if you find Machiavellian instincts within yourself... devil

"Enjoy your visit. Hope to see you again soon!"

About Us

Alcatraz was created by three Polish guys: brothers Rafał Cywicki and Krzysztof Cywicki and their long-time best friend, Krzysztof Hanusz.

We love games. In school we were those guys who stayed after class to play Moce Albionu. On holidays we played chess and lots of RPGs. Then we discovered modern board games and got addicted.

Together we created Kingpin, which debuted at Spiel in 2009. At that same time, the first concept of Alcatraz appeared. For a few years now, we have been meeting regularly at least once a week to work on new stuff.

We have different tastes, methods of work and education backgrounds (a sociologist, an IT specialist, a psychologist), but we all love board games full of interaction, emotions and specific atmosphere – and we think we managed to put all these features into Alcatraz.
Twitter Facebook
43 Comments
Subscribe sub options Tue Oct 4, 2011 6:30 am
Post Comment
Christopher Boat
United States
Des Moines
Iowa
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Looks like a must have for my group. The scape goat mechanics sound especially fun.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Oct 4, 2011 7:58 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Michael Pearsall
United States
Castleton
New York
flag msg tools
4 8 15 16 23 42
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
RhodesN7 wrote:
Looks like a must have for my group. The scape goat mechanics sound especially fun.


I agree. This is going immediately on my wishlist.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Oct 4, 2011 8:31 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Alexander Belyakov
Russian Federation
Moscow
Stop tickling my avatar!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm interested enough to give this one a try. Would probably be a great game to play at work.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Oct 4, 2011 8:38 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
0,07 Geek Gold
Italy

· · · — — — · · ·
badge
· · · — — — · · ·
Avatar
mb
I'm interested, if I can find the third player ...
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Tue Oct 4, 2011 9:21 am
  • Posted Tue Oct 4, 2011 9:21 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Rafał Cywicki
Poland
Cracow
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
james_bond wrote:
I'm interested, if I can find the third player ...


If you want this third player just so you can have somebody to left as a Scapegoat... he or she may be a little reluctant to play shake

You will have to sugarcoat it "Let's escape Alcaraz together"
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Oct 4, 2011 9:27 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Rafał Cywicki
Poland
Cracow
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Also feel free to ask questions if you have any. Here, or on the games profile
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Oct 4, 2011 9:41 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Rom tos
Netherlands

mb
Ok, question. Without reading the rules:
Why is the player limit set at 3-4?
I.E. why not till 5 or 6 players?

4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Oct 4, 2011 9:46 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Michael Pearsall
United States
Castleton
New York
flag msg tools
4 8 15 16 23 42
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
chomoon wrote:
Also feel free to ask questions if you have any. Here, or on the games profile


In testing, what percentage of time does one person lose and what percentage of time does everyone lose?

4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Oct 4, 2011 9:57 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Rafał Cywicki
Poland
Cracow
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Romtos wrote:
Ok, question. Without reading the rules:
Why is the player limit set at 3-4?
I.E. why not till 5 or 6 players?



At first the idea was to make it a 3 to 6 players game, but as you will see the number of different actions with just 3-4 players gives a lot of complexity. Serious AP could arose with more players. Even with 4 players we had to restrict players turn to 2 actions (there are 3 actions per player with 3 players) because game gets easier the more actions players have. It was a decision we had to make

If game sells well, we surely will include more players somehow in the expansion.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Oct 4, 2011 10:06 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Teik Chooi Oh
United Kingdom
Chorley
Lancashire
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Great concept, well overdue! Start the Essen preorder already (am I correct it's special price of €15? Makes it even more of a no brainer!). Congrats. Our group will enjoy this. Shame not 5-players..but there's always expansions ;-)
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Oct 4, 2011 10:06 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Rafał Cywicki
Poland
Cracow
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
fanaka66 wrote:
chomoon wrote:
Also feel free to ask questions if you have any. Here, or on the games profile


In testing, what percentage of time does one person lose and what percentage of time does everyone lose?



I would say 80-90% games end in succesful escape. But it depends highly on the players. The more experienced they are, and the more they focus on being indispensable (rather than completing "any" task) the greater the chances that they stay in prison. Games a bit easier to complete with inexerienced players (they are more cooperative )

Also depending on the layout of the locations and tasks at hand, game gets easier or harder (it is a feature of the game, not a bug). If it turns out that the game is easy there is more time for "scapegoating". Other times game gets really hard and demands that player cooperate more willingly.

Hope this answers your question
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Oct 4, 2011 10:14 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Piotr Zuchowski
Poland
Lublin
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
chooi wrote:
Great concept, well overdue! Start the Essen preorder already (am I correct it's special price of €15?


Preorders start within a few days. The prices are:

Suggested Retail Price: 20 Euro
Reservation: 18 Euro
Preorder: 15 Euro

EDIT: the preorders were launched today. You can order a copy here: http://www.kuzniagier.com/preorder/
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Tue Oct 4, 2011 11:55 am
  • Posted Tue Oct 4, 2011 10:35 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Ethan Nicholas
United States
Wake Forest
North Carolina
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
First I've heard about this, straight onto my wishlist!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Oct 4, 2011 3:44 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Breakaway
United States
Citrus Heights
California
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Anyway to get this game shipped to the US currently via preorder??

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Tue Oct 4, 2011 5:20 pm
  • Posted Tue Oct 4, 2011 5:19 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Evan Derrick
United States
Norfolk
Virginia
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yes, please. Want now.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Oct 4, 2011 6:32 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Ben Stanley
United States
Pleasant Grove
Utah
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The game sounds awesome and really innovative. I am curious about how the final scoring works, though.

The most useless player loses even if the team escapes? How is that determined? The player who spent the most time (rounds) as the goat? The player who completed the least tasks overall? The player who is voted Goat in the final round?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Oct 4, 2011 8:09 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Breakaway
United States
Citrus Heights
California
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Blue Steel wrote:
The game sounds awesome and really innovative. I am curious about how the final scoring works, though.

The most useless player loses even if the team escapes? How is that determined? The player who spent the most time (rounds) as the goat? The player who completed the least tasks overall? The player who is voted Goat in the final round?


From the English rules:

Immediately after getting rewards for carrying out a task, if any group of players have together all the elements (A, B, C, D, E and F) at least once, they escape and win the game. The Scapegoat may be in this group if they have indispensable elements of the plan. It does not matter if the same element occurs more than once. The players who are not necessary for completing the plan stay in prison and lose the game.

The players who have the necessary tools escape, leaving everyone else, even someone who could contribute a tool, just not a unique tool...
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Oct 4, 2011 8:27 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Burster of Bubbles, Destroyer of Dreams.
United States
Sunnyvale
California
Just imagine the red offboard up here. I'll create it Real Soon Now...
badge
Yes, I know a proper 18XX tile should have a tile number.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It sounds like the beginning of a bad joke:

A sociologist, an IT specialist, and a psychologist walk into a bar prison...
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Oct 4, 2011 9:09 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
Avatar
mbmbmb
breakaway11 wrote:
Immediately after getting rewards for carrying out a task, if any group of players have together all the elements (A, B, C, D, E and F) at least once, they escape and win the game. The Scapegoat may be in this group if they have indispensable elements of the plan. It does not matter if the same element occurs more than once. The players who are not necessary for completing the plan stay in prison and lose the game.

The players who have the necessary tools escape, leaving everyone else, even someone who could contribute a tool, just not a unique tool...

So as long as you have a unique necessary element (A, B, C, D, E or F) it does not hurt you to be the scapegoat at the end?

And someone's who was never the scapegoat would still be left behind if they had no necessary element?

And in theory 2 or even 3 players could be left behind if none of them had necessary elements?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Oct 4, 2011 9:17 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Breakaway
United States
Citrus Heights
California
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
russ wrote:
breakaway11 wrote:
Immediately after getting rewards for carrying out a task, if any group of players have together all the elements (A, B, C, D, E and F) at least once, they escape and win the game. The Scapegoat may be in this group if they have indispensable elements of the plan. It does not matter if the same element occurs more than once. The players who are not necessary for completing the plan stay in prison and lose the game.

The players who have the necessary tools escape, leaving everyone else, even someone who could contribute a tool, just not a unique tool...

So as long as you have a unique necessary element (A, B, C, D, E or F) it does not hurt you to be the scapegoat at the end?

And someone's who was never the scapegoat would still be left behind if they had no necessary element?

And in theory 2 or even 3 players could be left behind if none of them had necessary elements?


Well, "the end" could be on any of the 20 turns, it could be on turn 8, or turn 15, or turn 20... having the necessary elements is the definition of "the end"... it's not a set number of turns like Pirates Cove, rather, a maximum of allowed turns before losing.

And someone who was never the scapegoat could be left behind (which I like, so that just because said person is popular or even the one trying to gang up on someone else, they can still lose... plus, if they never missed any turn by being a scapegoat and STILL couldn't get the necessary pieces, they deserve to lose IMO)

And yes, multiple people may be left behind... which is realistic.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Oct 4, 2011 9:34 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Mark Thomason
United States

Washington
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
chomoon wrote:

Games a bit easier to complete with inexerienced players (they are more cooperative )


Love that the game gets harder the better the players get... that's a unique experience in and of itself!

Can't wait to see this game hit US shelves... sounds like a blast!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Oct 4, 2011 10:15 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Anthony
United States
Lawton
Oklahoma
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If you offer any preorders with shipping to the United States I'll jump on it. It looks like a great game.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Oct 4, 2011 10:46 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Rafał Cywicki
Poland
Cracow
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
breakaway11 wrote:
russ wrote:
breakaway11 wrote:
Immediately after getting rewards for carrying out a task, if any group of players have together all the elements (A, B, C, D, E and F) at least once, they escape and win the game. The Scapegoat may be in this group if they have indispensable elements of the plan. It does not matter if the same element occurs more than once. The players who are not necessary for completing the plan stay in prison and lose the game.

The players who have the necessary tools escape, leaving everyone else, even someone who could contribute a tool, just not a unique tool...

So as long as you have a unique necessary element (A, B, C, D, E or F) it does not hurt you to be the scapegoat at the end?

And someone's who was never the scapegoat would still be left behind if they had no necessary element?

And in theory 2 or even 3 players could be left behind if none of them had necessary elements?


Well, "the end" could be on any of the 20 turns, it could be on turn 8, or turn 15, or turn 20... having the necessary elements is the definition of "the end"... it's not a set number of turns like Pirates Cove, rather, a maximum of allowed turns before losing.

And someone who was never the scapegoat could be left behind (which I like, so that just because said person is popular or even the one trying to gang up on someone else, they can still lose... plus, if they never missed any turn by being a scapegoat and STILL couldn't get the necessary pieces, they deserve to lose IMO)

And yes, multiple people may be left behind... which is realistic.


I see you get the game right away

Though it is our fault that the simplified winning conditions are still up on BGG. We tested the game a lot, and decided to go with advanced winning conditions in the end as the standard rules. I'll try to put them up on BGG tommorow or day after. In few words they state that only one player gets left (always) behind and they explain what to do in the event of a tie. We think the game is more stable this way. But the truth is that the endgame in Alcatraz sometimes tend to be confusing - I don't want go into details now, it just does - and we expect it to be discussed a lot on BGG.

I'm glad to see you all so excited about the game
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Oct 4, 2011 11:55 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Rafał Cywicki
Poland
Cracow
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Morganza wrote:
It sounds like the beginning of a bad joke:

A sociologist, an IT specialist, and a psychologist walk into a bar prison...


...and one of them gets left behind with a goat.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Oct 4, 2011 11:56 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Rafał Cywicki
Poland
Cracow
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
As I promised I posted the advanced winning conditions on BGG. Sorry for the confusion. This is the only major change since the last version of the rulebook.

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/7590167#7590167
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Wed Oct 5, 2011 1:34 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Peer Sylvester
Germany
Berlin
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I will have to try this. Not only that it sounds interesting, but also because Im working on an Alcatraz agme as well and I want to see the similarities (and evaluate if it makes sense to carry on working on that prototype...)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Wed Oct 5, 2011 8:30 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Rafał Cywicki
Poland
Cracow
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Peerchen wrote:
I will have to try this. Not only that it sounds interesting, but also because Im working on an Alcatraz agme as well and I want to see the similarities (and evaluate if it makes sense to carry on working on that prototype...)


Sorry, it seams that we have beat you to it I hope you won't have to abandon your prototype... I had the same thing with a game once or twice. You can always try to "re-theme" it. Make it about different prison for example. Anyway... let us know how it turns out.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Wed Oct 5, 2011 8:38 pm
  • Posted Wed Oct 5, 2011 8:38 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
Avatar
mbmbmb
chomoon wrote:
Sorry, it seams that we have beat you to it

You were beat to it also.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Wed Oct 5, 2011 8:47 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Rafał Cywicki
Poland
Cracow
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
russ wrote:
chomoon wrote:
Sorry, it seams that we have beat you to it

You were beat to it also.


I realize that One of the reasons we gave the game a subtitle was, no to get it confused with other games.

We searched BGG for prison-themed games - and there are few of them, but still Alcatraz: the Scapegoat stands out next to them (even those you mentioned), since it is the first to take the theme seriously. Or at least I didn't find any other such game. Actually, I was suprised by that, because in my opinion the theme seems perfect for a boardgame.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Wed Oct 5, 2011 8:59 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Lee Fisher
United States
Downingtown
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
chomoon wrote:
russ wrote:
chomoon wrote:
Sorry, it seams that we have beat you to it

You were beat to it also.


I realize that One of the reasons we gave the game a subtitle was, no to get it confused with other games.

We searched BGG for prison-themed games - and there are few of them, but still Alcatraz: the Scapegoat stands out next to them (even those you mentioned), since it is the first to take the theme seriously. Or at least I didn't find any other such game. Actually, I was suprised by that, because in my opinion the theme seems perfect for a boardgame.


Besides the artwork, does anything actually tie specifically to alcatraz?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Wed Oct 5, 2011 9:04 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Rafał Cywicki
Poland
Cracow
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
lfisher wrote:

Besides the artwork, does anything actually tie specifically to alcatraz?


This guy
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Wed Oct 5, 2011 9:09 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Rafał Cywicki
Poland
Cracow
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
But other than artwork... not that much. We decided at one point not to take the game to historically. I'll quote the diary:

Quote:
Nobody in Alcatraz wore orange jumpsuits, but we like them. We had to sacrifice a few historical facts for the sake of the atmosphere.


You could say that action takes place in some generic prison, but where's the fun in that Alcatraz is the only prison worth breaking out of
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Wed Oct 5, 2011 9:17 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Steve Blackwell
United Kingdom
Brighton
East Sussex
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Pre-ordered. Thanks guys. I originally passed this over as I wasn't sure about the dumping of a player at the end of the game. But checking out the rules and that great pre-order price-point I couldn't say no.

All this coming from someone who doesn't normally buy games that can't be played with two!

Good luck, guys. You deserve to do well.

M B
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Wed Oct 5, 2011 9:20 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Piotr Zuchowski
Poland
Lublin
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks guys for all the kind words about the game. It starts looking like a hit to me

chomoon wrote:
Morganza wrote:
It sounds like the beginning of a bad joke:

A sociologist, an IT specialist, and a psychologist walk into a bar prison...


...and one of them gets left behind with a goat.


God, Rafał, you're such a pervert. Who the hell am I working with? devil
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Wed Oct 5, 2011 10:06 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
iMonkey
Peru
Lima
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hmm... intriguing. I really like the concept very much, the theme and the scapegoat mechanic.
Not sure, however, that our group will be comfortable with the fact that they are going to be used, betrayed and blackmailed. Still, I'm gonna keep an eye on this one.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Wed Oct 5, 2011 10:28 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Breakaway
United States
Citrus Heights
California
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ldaponte wrote:
Not sure, however, that our group will be comfortable with the fact that they are going to be used, betrayed and blackmailed. Still, I'm gonna keep an eye on this one.


Time for a new group?
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Wed Oct 5, 2011 11:10 pm
  • Posted Wed Oct 5, 2011 10:30 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Rafał Cywicki
Poland
Cracow
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ldaponte wrote:
Hmm... intriguing. I really like the concept very much, the theme and the scapegoat mechanic.
Not sure, however, that our group will be comfortable with the fact that they are going to be used, betrayed and blackmailed. Still, I'm gonna keep an eye on this one.


Exact reason we wrote "Alcatraz is not for everyone" section of the Designers Diary. Just give the game a try...

...or follow the advice Breakaway offered
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Wed Oct 5, 2011 10:35 pm
  • Posted Wed Oct 5, 2011 10:35 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Michael Denman
United States
Katy
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
chomoon wrote:
You could say that action takes place in some generic prison, but where's the fun in that Alcatraz is the only prison worth breaking out of


I realize you'd have copyright issues, but in my group I'd be teaching everyone that the name of the prison is Fox River State Penitentiary.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Thu Oct 6, 2011 2:39 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Rafał Cywicki
Poland
Cracow
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Trump wrote:
chomoon wrote:
You could say that action takes place in some generic prison, but where's the fun in that Alcatraz is the only prison worth breaking out of


I realize you'd have copyright issues, but in my group I'd be teaching everyone that the name of the prison is Fox River State Penitentiary.


We don't mind. Actually, Prison Break series (first season) were a great inspiration for the game

At one point before we decided on Alcatraz we liked the name: "Scapegoat Prison" Mostly because we always mispronouce it as: "Escape-goat Prison" but this wordplay didn't make to the final game

Also one of my favourite prisons is "Rikers island" in New York. A bit like the Alcatraz (island on a river in a middle of a city) but much much bigger Worth cheking out if you didn't hear about it. Still Alcatraz is more famous
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Thu Oct 6, 2011 6:51 am
  • Posted Thu Oct 6, 2011 6:50 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Houserule Jay
Canada
Mississauga
Ontario
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think this is a pretty hard one to judge without playing so I have to ask an experienced player:

How much effect do you think the random reward has on the game winners/loses?

For example, if someone is playing 'well' how often could they still lose due to the random reward not going in their favour enough?

Kind of a tricky question maybe not sure. I know you have some good control over this by directly collecting elements and preferably ones no one else has but being the goat at the wrong times (randomly) might still hurt you bad? (Of course, don't be the goat is the obvious answer here...) Its also 50/50, 50% of the rewards are direct while 50% are actually random so this is the one aspect of the game that I am curious/concerned about.

------

Also one rules question, if a room has 4 guards can you bribe 2 guards and enter the room and perform actions?

Also if there is 3 guards, can you bribe one guard?

-----

Game sounds fun indeed!

Cheers!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Thu Oct 6, 2011 9:30 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Rafał Cywicki
Poland
Cracow
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jayjonbeach wrote:
I think this is a pretty hard one to judge without playing so I have to ask an experienced player:

How much effect do you think the random reward has on the game winners/loses?

For example, if someone is playing 'well' how often could they still lose due to the random reward not going in their favour enough?

Kind of a tricky question maybe not sure. I know you have some good control over this by directly collecting elements and preferably ones no one else has but being the goat at the wrong times (randomly) might still hurt you bad? (Of course, don't be the goat is the obvious answer here...) Its also 50/50, 50% of the rewards are direct while 50% are actually random so this is the one aspect of the game that I am curious/concerned about.


The random rewards are "the pain in the ..." for a experienced player. But it is possible to place yourself in a way that you'll be the one completing the task - and so you don't have to count on a random. This makes a person to your left a perfect candidate for a scapegoat. Still you are right - this is "a bit" random, just not in a way that spoils the fun

It was also necessary in the design of a game. We tested the game with not random "random reward" and half of the time it was not worth it to commit to the task - since you've already had the letter.

jayjonbeach wrote:

Also one rules question, if a room has 4 guards can you bribe 2 guards and enter the room and perform actions?

Also if there is 3 guards, can you bribe one guard?

With four guard you can't enter the room - and you can only bribe a guard in a room you're in. This is possible with 3 guards in a room
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Fri Oct 7, 2011 9:40 am
  • Posted Fri Oct 7, 2011 9:39 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Richard Nelson

Annapolis
Maryland
msg tools
mbmbmb
You're onto something here. There's an additional factor in reality that this game needs to address: in life, the prisoners would pick out the scapegoat ahead of time in order to know whom they KILL and leave behind appearing to be asleep when they make their break. gulp

There are a lot of mechanics that could simulate this potential and make it a two player game (such as having only two gangs--factions--in the prison, so the players need to figure out whom among their own gang gets quite literally shafted. Or it could be a double-dealing mess with multiple players as they negotiate, only hoping that their deal is the one taken so that someone ELSE becomes the dead scapegoat and they actually are in the know on the real escape plans...but the bottom line is, the ones seeking to escape are NOT going to leave a potential stoolie behind or even into their actual escape plans.

Given all this, it could be an interesting game, though it's not one I'd want to play with friends.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Oct 9, 2011 3:47 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Rafał Cywicki
Poland
Cracow
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Sky Horse wrote:
You're onto something here. There's an additional factor in reality that this game needs to address: in life, the prisoners would pick out the scapegoat ahead of time in order to know whom they KILL and leave behind appearing to be asleep when they make their break. gulp

There are a lot of mechanics that could simulate this potential and make it a two player game (such as having only two gangs--factions--in the prison, so the players need to figure out whom among their own gang gets quite literally shafted. Or it could be a double-dealing mess with multiple players as they negotiate, only hoping that their deal is the one taken so that someone ELSE becomes the dead scapegoat and they actually are in the know on the real escape plans...but the bottom line is, the ones seeking to escape are NOT going to leave a potential stoolie behind or even into their actual escape plans.


I see a lot of nice mechanics in your comment maybe an idea for another game. Obviously it is too late to incorporate anything else into the game now, but we'll keep them in mind for the expansion (two gangs-factions idea seem like a nice way to add more players to the game).

As for the first paragraph. Well, we never aspired to capture the whole complexity of prison life. If some parts of the game seem unrealistic to you, it because of the choices we made (and had to make) along the way, what to include, and what to skip on.

Sky Horse wrote:

Given all this, it could be an interesting game, though it's not one I'd want to play with friends.


Well, you can always try to play the game with strangers first and if you like it, you can test it with your friends. And as much as we tried to make the game look evil and hateful, it is a very enjoyable game, which offers moments laughter and fullfillment when the game is won, against all hopes
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Sun Oct 9, 2011 3:33 pm
  • Posted Sun Oct 9, 2011 3:33 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.