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Gaming during week 40/2011 (Space Empires, Navegador, Kosminen kierros)

Antti Koskinen
Finland

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I did get some interesting games in this week.

On Thursday I visited Leppävaara's game club and began the night with Navegador. This was the one game I really did want to play since it's one of the games in the European Masters tournament which we'll be attending during Spiel 2011. I had not had too many opportunities to play the game and there's not that much time left before the tournament so I was glad that three other gamers joined me to play the game.

I was even more happy when we finished the game and I won it. I did not have strategy and I made mistakes but I suppose other players did more of them. Navegador is a game which I probably don't play after the tournament because I find it to be much too dry and themeless for my taste. Mechanically the game is superb and theres' a lot of meaningful choices throughout the game but it just isn't fun enough.



After Navegador I ended willingly to play prototypes (the other choice would have been Eclipse but I probably have several chances to play it in the near future). First we tried Paul's card game proto which was interesting and felt quite ready to be published. Game was a card placement game which had some interesting choices in a short playtime.


Next there were two prototypes from Touko - a trick taking game and a work game with cards. I had played the trick taking game and the small changes it had undergone were good. Game has quite unique card playing mechanic but I don't know whether this mechanic alone makes the game interesting enough for continuous play. Word game was very interesting mix of classical word game and a speed game. It has potential and I suppose it's going to be published some day.

Last game of the Leppävaara night was Kosminen kierros by Jani and Tero Moliis. I have had this sitting on my shelf for some time and it was great to have it on the table. Kosminen kierros is a game in which players are scientist on a mission to travel around the sun and gather as much information as possible. Each turn players visit one department of their space ship and trigger the action attached to it. Players can turn the ship, take resource cards, take information cards (which score in the end of the game) or fly the ship one space forward.



Idea of the game is to fly the ship back to Earth and obviously there's a high chance that ship crashes before it reaches Earth. The biggest problem in the game is that it is a collaboration game in which each player tries to gather their own points. This leads situations where some of the players don't actually want the ship to finish because they don't have any chance to win the game. With children this might not be such a big problem but because it's fun to reach the final destination but gamers play to win and if they can't it's better to not let anyone else win either.

I also got a chance to try out the new 4X space game Space Empires 4X which I've waited for almost a year. With three players the game took 4-5 hours and we did not even play until extermination (which would have taken several more hours). Playing time is definitely the biggest problem with this game and I don't see a clear reduction of the duration even when players know the game. There are other issues with the game as well like the fact that you probably never have a chance to develop all the technologies in the game (they are just too expensive) and the fact that once someone has taken a clear lead in the game other(s) have no chance to come back (and the game might still last several hours).



Fortunately there's variation and scenarios available for the game and you can play the game solitaire which offers a chance for longer games. Obviously I also need to try the game out with different amounts of players and maybe a bit smaller map and other additional rules. I hope that these changes will make the game better.

After the very long Space Empires we still had time to play one short game. Hessu wanted to play Lemmings Mafia and I had no objections since it is a solid game. I actually think that this game is a hidden gem which has gone under the radar for most gamers. There's gorgeous components, fun game play and some interesting decisions in the game in the 20 minutes it lasts. Obviously it's not a very deep game and there's a lot of chaos in it but as much as I don't like these characteristics in many games, in Lemmings Mafia they fit the theme and mechanics very well. Solid filler and a very good game to be played with families and non-gamers.



Great week of gaming behind and probably a bit quieter week ahead. I hope I can get some games in but even if I don't, it's soon going to be Essen time and I'll be off to Germany to play a lot of games!
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Subscribe sub options Sun Oct 9, 2011 5:09 pm
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Touko Tahkokallio
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Quote:
Next there were two prototypes from Touko - a trick taking game and a work game with cards. I had played the trick taking game and the small changes it had undergone were good. Game has quite unique card playing mechanic but I don't know whether this mechanic alone makes the game interesting enough for continuous play. Work game was very interesting mix of classical work game and a speed game. It has potential and I suppose it's going to be published some day.

You probably mean word game! I hope playing the game really didn't feel like work to you

Anyway, nice write-up Antti!
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  • Edited Sun Oct 9, 2011 7:17 pm
  • Posted Sun Oct 9, 2011 7:16 pm
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Antti Koskinen
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Filling the Space Empires sheets felt like work.

Your proto felt like I should have quickly found some words from the letters on the table before somebody else does.

 
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  • Posted Sun Oct 9, 2011 7:31 pm
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David Jones
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Kosminen kierros is a game in which players are scientist on a mission to travel around the sun and gather as much information as possible. Each turn players visit one department of their space ship and trigger the action attached to it. Players can turn the ship, take resource cards, take information cards (which score in the end of the game) or fly the ship one space forward.


I certainly hate to frown upon a game with such little information, but it sounds a bit like turn based version Space Alert. I think Space Alert is an OK game, but I'm really not fond of it. Are you able to compare the two?
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  • Posted Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:42 am
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Antti Koskinen
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davypi wrote:


I certainly hate to frown upon a game with such little information, but it sounds a bit like turn based version Space Alert. I think Space Alert is an OK game, but I'm really not fond of it. Are you able to compare the two?


I actually like Space Alert quite a bit even though I have not played it in a while.

Kosminen kierros and Space Alert have some similarities like theme and a ship board in which players activate parts of the ship to support the common cause (most of the time).

But I still can't say that Kosminen kierros is Space Alert with a turn based mechanism. Reason for this is that actually Kosminen kierros is a game in which players have a common goal (fly the ship back) but individual scores (which means that sometimes it's just better to crash the ship than land it). Thus it mixes individual play and co-op play whereas Space Alert is just about surviving together.

Hopefully this at least partly answers your question. If not wait for the review I'm thinking of doing in video soon enough.
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:30 am
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I also got a chance to try out the new 4X space game Space Empires 4X which I've waited for almost a year. With three players the game took 4-5 hours and we did not even play until extermination (which would have taken several more hours). Playing time is definitely the biggest problem with this game and I don't see a clear reduction of the duration even when players know the game. There are other issues with the game as well like the fact that you probably never have a chance to develop all the technologies in the game (they are just too expensive) and the fact that once someone has taken a clear lead in the game other(s) have no chance to come back (and the game might still last several hours).

To parrot some advice from the SE4X forums:
* play the basic 2-player game for your first SE4X game. Then play "hard" alliances (2-on-1 and especially 2-on-2) for your next few games, when you have more than two players. (This really is a two player game at heart, though)
* be aggressive. This game isn't about building an empire. It's about using a newly-built empire to kill one of your foes to win.
(Just try an attack. Chances are it will go through, and then you've won! And if you're not, the game will end soon anyway... devil)
* not being able to research all techs in any one game is a feature, not a bug! Again, it's not a empire-building game. It's a empire-burning game.
* once somebody has taken a clear lead he shouldn't just stand there, he should go kill somebody. That means the game ends. Then you can start playing a new game of SE4X! (This game have almost no checks and balances to make sure underdogs aren't left behind. In fact, the point is to choose the underdog and kill it. Any notion of "coming back" will have to be due to doing better next time...!)
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  • Edited Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:28 am
  • Posted Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:27 am
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Antti Koskinen
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CapnZapp wrote:

* once somebody has taken a clear lead he shouldn't just stand there, he should go kill somebody. That means the game ends. Then you can start playing a new game of SE4X! (This game have almost no checks and balances to make sure underdogs aren't left behind. In fact, the point is to choose the underdog and kill it. Any notion of "coming back" will have to be due to doing better next time...!)


I have nothing against the fact that somebody must die and in order for it to happen the other(s) need to be stronger in the game. The problem here is that it takes too long to finish a player completely and it's not fun for anyone. Thus you can have variant for the game where game ends when somebody triggers the winning conditions during the game. Most of the time this players would win anyways it just would take a couple of hours more time to play the game.
 
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  • Posted Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:02 am
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cane wrote:
I have nothing against the fact that somebody must die and in order for it to happen the other(s) need to be stronger in the game. The problem here is that it takes too long to finish a player completely and it's not fun for anyone. Thus you can have variant for the game where game ends when somebody triggers the winning conditions during the game. Most of the time this players would win anyways it just would take a couple of hours more time to play the game.

Well... you really should head over to the SE4X forums and ask for pointers. Giving a bit more detail about the game(s) you've played so far, so the pros over there (including the very helpful designer himself) can perhaps identify specific ways you could cut down on the playing times you're experiencing.

Since I am neither a pro, nor knows the details about your groups, I can only provide a few bits of general feedback on what you've written above...:

* Somebody must die - but his opponent does not have to be stronger. He just have to be more daring, more aggressive, or more tricky. Or stronger, of course. Or any combination of the above.

* You don't need to "finish a player completely". You just need to go for the jugular. Play aggressively. Overwhelm his defensive capabilities. Either he loses his colonies (at which time it isn't uncommon to simply give up) or you can destroy the homeworld and simply win outright.

* But yes, playing with the variant that gives you "colony points" for destroying enemy colonies (and building and keeping deep space colonies of your own), should nicely help out (meaning nobody needs to actually surrender, since the "victory" (colony) point total should end the game for you at that point).

* This game really rewards going "all-in". When you attack a neighbor in, say, a 3 player game, you really need to commit everything. It doesn't matter that you're defenseless against the third player, since either 1) your aggression succeeds, and you win the game; or 2) it doesn't, and then being able to mount a defense will only prolong your suffering - you will have lost the game anyway, so why drag it out?

But, yeah, despite whatever efforts GMT took to ensure nobody bought this game with the wrong expectations, I do feel that the claim "a 2-4 player game" is slightly misleading.

It's easy to get your hopes up this would be kind of a civilization game in space, where all four players will have several shots at winning, and the underdog would be helped by various buffs and discounts.

SE4X is nothing of the sort. It's a unapologetic wargame, and it contains no attempts at curbing the "dogpiling the weakest" trend. Unless you're fully prepared to lose just because two other players happens to gang up on you, you should not play this game with more than two teams. Either simply two players, or using the alliance options.

In other words, making this game work in multiplayer is up to the players. The game itself doesn't provide checks and balances to provide for a "nice ride" for everybody.

Cheers

PS. In fact, with your permission I'd like to link to this discussion over at the game's forums. I believe your criticism as well as my possibly-wrong advice could stand to be analyzed by the more experienced, and generally very agreeable, players over there.
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  • Edited Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:27 pm
  • Posted Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:25 pm
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Antti Koskinen
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CapnZapp wrote:


PS. In fact, with your permission I'd like to link to this discussion over at the game's forums. I believe your criticism as well as my possibly-wrong advice could stand to be analyzed by the more experienced, and generally very agreeable, players over there.


By all means. If my blog posts fuel any discussion it's definitely only for good.

This is probably a game which separates gamers into different camps. I think the game is quite appealing to wargamers and eurogamers alike and there's some aspects from both sides (if you can call them such). Thus it's also compared to the standards of both "average wargame" and "average eurogame" and obviously it can't be everything for everybody.

I'll be keeping my eye on the forum and I have some ideas which speed up the game in my game groups.
 
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  • Posted Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:17 pm
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