Full (Grey) Métal Planète

Ron

Austria
Vienna

ASL ... yes, this is my Desert Island Game. If I have to give up all my 3000+ games and only allowed to keep one, this would be it. This bloody game stood the test of time. Around for more than 25 years - simply the best.

Devote follower of the most holy church of the Evil Bob. Possessed and down the road to become chaotic, evil & naughty. All hail the Evil Bob and his stargate.

Good post!

I do own a copy of the old FMP and its expansion set, although I played it only twice and I rated it a "5". I only bought it for completeness of my Ludodélire collection.

Regardless of my thoughts about the game, I'm with you here: if there's a demand for the game, why not publishing it? Although I don't think that TF22 will become successful, because not many people know the old game, and from these, not many will know that it is republished under a strange new title by an unknown publisher. So only geeks will buy it. How many? Well, best luck for that enterprise!

Outpost/Scepter is an issue for me. Jens should have at least shared his royalties with James. The similarities are too close (but I have the same issues with many 18xx games who do not even mention Francis Tresham in their rules). Changing a topic and adding a new rule or two does not qualify enough for claiming intellectual property IMHO.

Dune will be republished by FFG in their Twilight Imperium Universe (AFAIK) - so my copy will face a huge devaluation ... soblue

Another great example would be Silverton; it was published by a small company but grew an impressive fan base for such a small print run. If I recall the story right, the autor died and the widow refused to allow a reprint. Until Mayfair Games convinced her many years later and did a wonderful new edition.

It's always a pity to see great games go out of print. Sometimes they see the light of day again, but most of the time, these reprints are not very successful (Avalon Hill's Titan or Republic of Rome, for example). Mostly they cater to us geeks. But we own these games already, don't we?

Posted Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:32 am
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Scott Everts

(ScottE)

United States
Foothill Ranch
California

MITCHELL!!!

Push the button, Frank!

Those are very interesting thoughts. You never know how people are going to react when something like this happens. Your comparison of Outpost and Zavandor I found really telling since I don't remember anyone getting up in arms over those but they are always compared as being super similar.

Being someone that has made a couple graphic redesigns of out of print games I guess I'm involved somewhat. Most people seem to be fine with it as long as there is no sales involved. I've given my graphic redesigns of Dune and Chitin: I freely. But as noted by me, my Dune redesign includes the original illustration art which is why its not available on BGG. My Chitin: I redesign is available here since the counter illustrations were redone.

I can't decide how I feel about TF22. I, like you, have been dying to get a copy of Full Metal Planete for some time. And now there's a way to get it. Though its pretty pricy so can't actually afford to buy it anyway. Buf if there was a version with chipboard counters at a lower price it would be hard for me to resist.

Consider Dune, no way that will ever get reprinted (though Rex is a retheme) so does it hurt anyone to have freely available fan redesigns? Only eBay resellers are the ones that profit from it now. And it won't compete with Rex since 99% of gamers don't do PnP.

Also, forgot to mention, Full Metal Planete has an official PnP version available so anyone can make their own. I've debated about making it myself though the art files are pretty marginal. But if the designers are fine to give it away, should anyone be upset if someone makes a new similar edition?

Edited Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:45 am
Posted Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:42 am
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Slev Sleddeddan

(Slev)

United Kingdom
Victoria Park
Manchester

What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

The point to bear in mind here is the reason for IP laws is to allow creative types to profit from their work in order that society is enriched by that work being released/published.

Thusthe question should be asked as to whether refusing to publish and thus circumvention the reason for the laws that allow you to do so, can be considered ethical?

As has been posited on BGG previously, there is no protection for game mechanics or general theme, only specific creative elements such as art and text, thus no laws appear to be being broken here.

The important point of contention then should be as to WHY the original authers don't want this published. If they object to the rules or naming differences or some such, then that is far different from objecting as they have a reprint or new edition in the works.

Posted Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:21 am
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Ze Masqued Cucumber

(Roolz)

France

Protze et Chniaque !

C'est le Gomazio à crête mordorée, dont le cri annonce le soir...

ScottE wrote:

Also, forgot to mention, Full Metal Planete has an official PnP version available so anyone can make their own. I've debated about making it myself though the art files are pretty marginal. But if the designers are fine to give it away, should anyone be upset if someone makes a new similar edition?

Probably because the new edition is professionally published (=profit, etc), whereas PnP's free.

Slev wrote:

The important point of contention then should be as to WHY the original authers don't want this published. If they object to the rules or naming differences or some such, then that is far different from objecting as they have a reprint or new edition in the works.

3 authors. 2 are OK to republish, 1 wants to piss them off. Non-negotiable. Nobody knows why except the concerned parties.

My 2 cents :
TF22 is clearly a FMP ripoff (ruleset 98% identical), but the publisher has been "clever" enough to change the art and rewrite the rules (badly if you ask me), so he doesn't risk much. Plus, it's not FFG or Asmodée, it' a 1-man company. He won't make millions with it, sueing him is not worth the hassle. As far as I know, none of the FMP authors have expressed anything yet about this upcoming game.
Ethically, TF22 is questionable to say the least. Game-ly, it's rather cool (not cheap, though, but the FMP "PnP" files are there for this).

Posted Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:38 am
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Eric Brosius

(Eric Brosius)

United States
Needham Heights
Massachusetts

I'm a big fan of Outpost and am looking forward eagerly to the reprint. I've played The Scepter of Zavandor, but don't like it nearly as much as I like the original game.

Although The Scepter of Zavandor is plainly derived from Outpost, it's by no means a straight reprint or even close to one, at least as I define "close". So I don't think there's any copyright violation.

I should also mention that there's a third game in this general family: Tom Lehmann's Phoenicia.

Posted Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:54 am
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Joe Huber

(huber)

Westborough
Massachusetts

I've never played Full Metal Planete, though I doubt it's particularly a game for me. So I've not noticed TF22, and don't really have an opinion on that specific case.

I do, however, have opinions on some of the cases you site. First...

Eric Brosius wrote:

I'm a big fan of Outpost and am looking forward eagerly to the reprint. I've played The Scepter of Zavandor, but don't like it nearly as much as I like the original game.

I've of the same opinion as Eric. And as a result, I don't recall if The Scepter of Zavandor acknowledges James Hlavaty or not. But that, IMHO, would be sufficient, given the number of differences.

In the case of Merchant of Venus, while I don't care for the graphics on the re-design, I don't have a major qualm with it. It might be legal, and so long as it's not being sold for a profit my only objection is that Richard Hamblen isn't getting anything for folks enjoying his creation.

In general, I must admit to being more sympathetic to the designers, on the whole; if someone did a print-and-play version of Scream Machine it wouldn't really hurt me financially, to any significant extent, but I'd want to give my OK before someone did such a thing - and if I didn't care for the artwork, or the theme was altered in a way that bothered me, I probably wouldn't give my OK.

And so, as I think it through, TF22 wasn't on my radar, but now is, as a game I'll steer clear of.

Posted Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:44 pm
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Shawn Garbett

(CyberGarp)

United States
Nashville
Tennessee

Copyright was initially intended to be used for 15 years. After which is rolled into public domain. This protected the original author and provided cash flow for a period and then the public could have free use of the work.

Then along came Disney and major corporate money with a vested interest in changing this law. They have effectively made copyright infinite. There is no public good or use of any work as long as there is some corporation left to defend it. Somehow in the process they managed to convince the public that this was a moral position and this idea was accepted into common culture.

This situation is not what copyright was intended or designed for and in the long run is detrimental to a creative society. The youth today are into "re-mixing" just about everything. They've effectively thumbed their nose at the corporate hegemony over copyright.

I fully support the return to the original copyright laws, pre-Disney, and would allow for say 20 years. Thus, the original Dune game in my opinion should be open season by now. The current copyright law is broken.

Posted Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:35 pm
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Slev Sleddeddan

(Slev)

United Kingdom
Victoria Park
Manchester

What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

CyberGarp wrote:

I fully support the return to the original copyright laws, pre-Disney, and would allow for say 20 years. Thus, the original Dune game in my opinion should be open season by now. The current copyright law is broken.

I can get behind the principal of that of not the exact details. I'd go for Fifteen (or if held by a charity, individual or group of individuals rather than a business/company.corporation, thirty) years or until five years after it was last in print, whichever the shorter.

Posted Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:47 pm
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Kevin Whitmore

(Kevin_Whitmore)

United States
Albuquerque
New Mexico

Rainer has been in contact with me about his plans for the TF22 game. You can read his blog here on BGG here.

Posted Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:29 pm
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Daniel Danzer

(duchamp)

Germany
Stuttgart
southwest

Since the TF22 designer has trademarked the titel "Full Metal Planete" in 2006 and was telling eBay-auctioners offering the original game to pay him 30 Euros because of copyright violation (!), while selling his molded and re-done clones / partly original games at the same time, you can clearly see where this is coming from.

It is just an illegal act, IMO. And boardgamegeeks should not support that. If you want to play FMP, ge the rules, the map, some cool figs or counters and go ahead. But don`t make a business out of your "fandom" without the agreement of the authors. NONE of them gave their OK to this.

Posted Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:09 am
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Scott Everts

(ScottE)

United States
Foothill Ranch
California

MITCHELL!!!

Push the button, Frank!

duchamp wrote:

Since the TF22 designer has trademarked the titel "Full Metal Planete" in 2006 and was telling eBay-auctioners offering the original game to pay him 30 Euros because of copyright violation (!), while selling his molded and re-done clones / partly original games at the same time, you can clearly see where this is coming from.

It is just an illegal act, IMO. And boardgamegeeks should not support that. If you want to play FMP, ge the rules, the map, some cool figs or counters and go ahead. But don`t make a business out of your "fandom" without the agreement of the authors. NONE of them gave their OK to this.

Thanks for giving us details on the publisher. Wow, that's not very nice at all. He really did harrass eBay sellers of the original official version?

Posted Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:17 pm
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Rainer Habekost

(TF22)

Germany
Riede

duchamp wrote:

Since the TF22 designer has trademarked the titel "Full Metal Planete" in 2006 and was telling eBay-auctioners offering the original game to pay him 30 Euros because of copyright violation (!), while selling his molded and re-done clones / partly original games at the same time, you can clearly see where this is coming from.

It is just an illegal act, IMO. And boardgamegeeks should not support that. If you want to play FMP, ge the rules, the map, some cool figs or counters and go ahead. But don`t make a business out of your "fandom" without the agreement of the authors. NONE of them gave their OK to this.

Sorry for the late reply.
I've tried to recover some archives from my older hardware to check if i have something about 2006 but alas i don't have.
If i should have done any offense to anyone in 2006 in the way you described, this is surely the wrong way and i apologize for that.

I want to try to get into more detail of some of your points:

1. Trademark
Registering a trademark in germany is a legal and public act. Anyone can do that and before registration, there're 3 month of publishing it and anyone can declare objections. Even afterwards this is possible but after now 5 years none did.

2. molded re-done
You're not correct here. I've described the process under
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/702762/new-full-metal-pl...
Simply pronouncing a false fact does not make it the thruth.

3. It is just an illegal act, IMO
Illegal means acting against the law. I'm not quite sure if we're here in a courtyard and you're the judge...?
I have not done something illegal, even if you state it here.

4. Agreement of the authors
I'm not quite sure if you speak in the name of the authors and have their agreement to take over some possible defense in their names?

5. Interest
I think all these debates and actions before are showing one thing:
The authors don't care, they simply seem to have lost the complete interest about it.

Here we come back to the original topic of the post - what is the opinion in such cases?

Back to TF22, yes i started actions with a new game.
Illegal? I dont' think so.
Not ethical? I don't so think.
Stupid and simply nonense? I dont think so.
Anything else? Perhaps...

Posted Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:46 am
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Ron

(PzVIE)

Austria
Vienna

ASL ... yes, this is my Desert Island Game. If I have to give up all my 3000+ games and only allowed to keep one, this would be it. This bloody game stood the test of time. Around for more than 25 years - simply the best.

Devote follower of the most holy church of the Evil Bob. Possessed and down the road to become chaotic, evil & naughty. All hail the Evil Bob and his stargate.

TF22 wrote:

Not ethical? I don't so think.

You call yourself the autor of TF22. But you aren't. The game was invented by Gerard Delfanti, Gérard Mathieu and Pascal Trigaux.
It could be called plagiarism ...

Posted Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:57 am
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Rainer Habekost

(TF22)

Germany
Riede

PzVIE wrote:

TF22 wrote:

Not ethical? I don't so think.

You call yourself the autor of TF22. But you aren't. The game was invented by Gerard Delfanti, Gérard Mathieu and Pascal Trigaux.
It could be called plagiarism ...

I'm sorry in my opinion you're not correct here:

I don't see one of the three persons you mentioned within the last year while creating and producing TF22 and the expansions.

You state TF22 was invented by the three persons you mentioned.
This is simply false.

Posted Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:24 am
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Ron

(PzVIE)

Austria
Vienna

ASL ... yes, this is my Desert Island Game. If I have to give up all my 3000+ games and only allowed to keep one, this would be it. This bloody game stood the test of time. Around for more than 25 years - simply the best.

Devote follower of the most holy church of the Evil Bob. Possessed and down the road to become chaotic, evil & naughty. All hail the Evil Bob and his stargate.

TF22 wrote:

I don't see one of the three persons you mentioned within the last year while creating and producing TF22 and the expansions.

Well, you may have not seen them, you still have produced a nearly identical product. So what?

TF22 wrote:

You state TF22 was invented by the three persons you mentioned.
This is simply false.

Is it? So, if I'm wrong, of course I apologize. Do you want me to correct the database entry here on BGG (which lists these three persons as autor of the game) or do want to do it yourself? Judging from your words, you are the sole creator of this game then, or am I wrong here again?

Posted Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:38 am
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Rainer Habekost

(TF22)

Germany
Riede

PzVIE wrote:

TF22 wrote:

I don't see one of the three persons you mentioned within the last year while creating and producing TF22 and the expansions.

Well, you may have not seen them, you still have produced a nearly identical product. So what?

TF22 wrote:

You state TF22 was invented by the three persons you mentioned.
This is simply false.

Is it? So, if I'm wrong, of course I apologize. Do you want me to correct the database entry here on BGG (which lists these three persons as autor of the game) or do want to do it yourself? Judging from your words, you are the sole creator of this game then, or am I wrong here again?

to Nearly identical:
- completely new designed game plan
- completely new designed minis
- completely new designed rules
- completely new designed arts and graphics
- completely new designed additional game stuff
- completely new game box solution
- completely new expansion module for 3D-game plan layouts

As i stated before, some of the game mechanics are comparable

Where do you exactly see it NEARLY identical?

Perhaps to be clear:
For Full Metal Planete the authors are the 3 person mentioned.
I guess this is correctly stored in the BGG database

For TF22 i'm the author.
This is correctly stored in the BGG database as well.

Posted Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:12 am
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Russ Williams

(russ)

Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk

TF22 wrote:

to Nearly identical:
- completely new designed game plan
- completely new designed minis
- completely new designed rules
- completely new designed arts and graphics
- completely new designed additional game stuff
- completely new game box solution
- completely new expansion module for 3D-game plan layouts

As i stated before, some of the game mechanics are comparable

Where do you exactly see it NEARLY identical?

The problem here is that you want to claim your game is quite different from FMP when it's in a context of you being accused of plagiarism, yet you want to claim your game is just like FMP when it's in a context of selling your product TF22 to people who want to own FMP.

Why did you bother registering the trademark "Full Metal Planete" if your game is not really FMP and it's "completely new"?

If I make an original "completely new" tile-laying game, I'm not going to try registering the trademark "Carcassonne".

---

Another question:
You confirmed that you registered the trademark "FMP" in Germany, but you did not respond to the other related statement by duchamp, that you were telling eBay-auctioners offering the original game to pay you because of copyright violation. Is that true, that you were trying to collect royalties from people selling real copies of FMP?

Posted Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:24 am
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Rainer Habekost

(TF22)

Germany
Riede

russ wrote:

TF22 wrote:

to Nearly identical:
- completely new designed game plan
- completely new designed minis
- completely new designed rules
- completely new designed arts and graphics
- completely new designed additional game stuff
- completely new game box solution
- completely new expansion module for 3D-game plan layouts

As i stated before, some of the game mechanics are comparable

Where do you exactly see it NEARLY identical?

The problem here is that you want to claim your game is quite different from FMP when it's in a context of you being accused of plagiarism, yet you want to claim your game is just like FMP when it's in a context of selling your product TF22 to people who want to own FMP.

Why did you bother registering the trademark "Full Metal Planete" if your game is not really FMP and it's "completely new"?

If I make an original "completely new" tile-laying game, I'm not going to try registering the trademark "Carcassonne".

---

Another question:
You confirmed that you registered the trademark "FMP" in Germany, but you did not respond to the other related statement by duchamp, that you were telling eBay-auctioners offering the original game to pay you because of copyright violation. Is that true, that you were trying to collect royalties from people selling real copies of FMP?

Here're points mixed:
I never claimed something for TF22 in context with FMP.
This is done within the discussions here.
I've never claimed TF22 is just like FMP or something like that.

Registering the trademark for FMP in germany is done in 2006.
I have answered to these questions some topics before just in this thread/blog.
It has nothing to do with TF22 which is developed and produced within the last year.

You're now trying to see a relationship between these two facts but there is no relationship.

Posted Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:53 am
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Rainer Habekost

(TF22)

Germany
Riede

russ wrote:

[q="TF22"]you want to claim your game is just like FMP when it's in a context of selling your product TF22 to people who want to own FMP.

Perhaps one important thing to add:
It is not the intention to sell TF22 in a context with FMP.
This is not the goal. It is a new product.
I adress TF22 simply as a new product without any context.

If i can attract new customers for that,fine.
If players see a context themselves to whatever and they're interested that way, o.k.
If i'm unable to get enough interest for the game anyway,
that is bad for me, but can be simply a result - o.k. that's life.

Posted Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:00 am
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Russ Williams

(russ)

Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk

TF22 wrote:

Here're points mixed:
I never claimed something for TF22 in context with FMP.
This is done within the discussions here.
I never claimed something for TF22 in context with FMP.

The game's "More Information" description says "At its core,TF22 is the same as Full Métal Planète", so I took it for granted that you agree with that.

OK, so now if I understand you correctly, you are saying that:

1. You registered the trademark for FMP in Germany in 2006. (Why? Why does it make sense for you to do that, given that you did not create the game? If "Harry Potter" is for some reason not registered in Germany, would you register it and try to collect royalties from sales of Harry Potter books?) And you tried to collect royalties from people selling old sets of FMP on ebay? (You still have not confirmed or denied that.)

and (completely as a separate activity)

2. You created a new game TF22 which has no particular connection to FMP, and that many confused people incorrectly think that TF22 seems extremely similar to FMP?

Quote:

I have answered to these questions some topics before just in this thread/blog.

You have not responded in this thread about pressuring people to pay you royalties for FMP. I am very interested in that question.

Quote:

It has nothing to do with TF22 which is developed and produced within the last year.
You're now trying to see a relationship between these two facts but there is no relationship.

I am surprised. You're sincerely stating that TF22 has "no relationship" to FMP, "nothing to do with" FMP?

Why did you try to contact the FMP authors about it (you mentioned doing so here), if there is no connection between the 2 games?

Posted Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:02 am
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Rainer Habekost

(TF22)

Germany
Riede

russ wrote:

TF22 wrote:

Here're points mixed:
I never claimed something for TF22 in context with FMP.
This is done within the discussions here.
I never claimed something for TF22 in context with FMP.

The game's "More Information" description says "At its core,TF22 is the same as Full Métal Planète", so I took it for granted that you agree with that.

OK, so now if I understand you correctly, you are saying that:

1. You registered the trademark for FMP in Germany in 2006. (Why? Why does it make sense for you to do that, given that you did not create the game? If "Harry Potter" is for some reason not registered in Germany, would you register it and try to collect royalties from sales of Harry Potter books?) And you tried to collect royalties from people selling old sets of FMP on ebay? (You still have not confirmed or denied that.)

and (completely as a separate activity)

2. You created a new game TF22 which has no particular connection to FMP, and that many confused people incorrectly think that TF22 seems extremely similar to FMP?

Quote:

I have answered to these questions some topics before just in this thread/blog.

You have not responded in this thread about pressuring people to pay you royalties for FMP. I am very interested in that question.

Quote:

It has nothing to do with TF22 which is developed and produced within the last year.
You're now trying to see a relationship between these two facts but there is no relationship.

I am surprised. You're sincerely stating that TF22 has "no relationship" to FMP, "nothing to do with" FMP?

Why did you try to contact the FMP authors about it (you mentioned doing so here), if there is no connection between the 2 games?

Surely i did answer, perhaps you have not found it.
I guess that is the main interest here apart from all other things, right?
See it one points above, i copy my answer in:

Sorry for the late reply.
I've tried to recover some archives from my older hardware to check if i have something about 2006 but alas i don't have.
If i should have done any offense to anyone in 2006 in the way you described, this is surely the wrong way and i apologize for that.

Posted Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:22 am
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Rainer Habekost

(TF22)

Germany
Riede

russ wrote:

TF22 wrote:

Here're points mixed:
I never claimed something for TF22 in context with FMP.
This is done within the discussions here.
I never claimed something for TF22 in context with FMP.

The game's "More Information" description says "At its core,TF22 is the same as Full Métal Planète", so I took it for granted that you agree with that.

OK, so now if I understand you correctly, you are saying that:

1. You registered the trademark for FMP in Germany in 2006. (Why? Why does it make sense for you to do that, given that you did not create the game? If "Harry Potter" is for some reason not registered in Germany, would you register it and try to collect royalties from sales of Harry Potter books?) And you tried to collect royalties from people selling old sets of FMP on ebay? (You still have not confirmed or denied that.)

and (completely as a separate activity)

2. You created a new game TF22 which has no particular connection to FMP, and that many confused people incorrectly think that TF22 seems extremely similar to FMP?

Quote:

I have answered to these questions some topics before just in this thread/blog.

You have not responded in this thread about pressuring people to pay you royalties for FMP. I am very interested in that question.

Quote:

It has nothing to do with TF22 which is developed and produced within the last year.
You're now trying to see a relationship between these two facts but there is no relationship.

I am surprised. You're sincerely stating that TF22 has "no relationship" to FMP, "nothing to do with" FMP?

Why did you try to contact the FMP authors about it (you mentioned doing so here), if there is no connection between the 2 games?

First of all, perhaps this is the source of confusion:

I have not listed the game on BGG.
I have not created the description.

Some days after the website www.tf22.de was online, i recognized someone has listed the game with the description on BGG.

Then i registered as a new BGG user to answer some possible questions, add pictures and more informations about TF22.

It is not my judgement to bring it into a context with FMP or any other existing game. At the moment, it's the community here or BGG initially.
I don't know what are here the mechanics on BGG to list a new game or who has the rights to change it.
Even the translation is not mine as at the time of setting the website online, it was only german. I just found two translators for it here via BGG.

Posted Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:36 am
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Daniel Danzer

(duchamp)

Germany
Stuttgart
southwest

russ wrote:

You have not responded in this thread about pressuring people to pay you royalties for FMP. I am very interested in that question.

Here the link to an old thread from the German spielbox Forum. Andreas Steding (now better known as designer of Hansa Teutonica), is asking:
"I auction a game on ebay and got an e-mail requesting to pay 30 Euros, because somebody has a patent (this was a wrong assumption, it is a bout the trademark [duchamp]) (the game is Full Metal Planete), is this allowed or a stupid rip-off?"

http://www.spielbox.de/phorum4/read.php4?f=1&i=146362&t=1463...

Posted Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:49 am
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Russ Williams

(russ)

Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk

TF22 wrote:

Surely i did answer, perhaps you have not found it.
I guess that is the main interest here apart from all other things, right?
See it one points above, i copy my answer in:

Sorry for the late reply.
I've tried to recover some archives from my older hardware to check if i have something about 2006 but alas i don't have.
If i should have done any offense to anyone in 2006 in the way you described, this is surely the wrong way and i apologize for that.

Ah, OK, thanks. I didn't realize that was intended as a specific response to duchamp's ebay statement.

Quote:

I have not listed the game on BGG.
I have not created the description.

I don't know what are here the mechanics on BGG to list a new game or who has the rights to change it.

Aha, OK, I see.

The Description and More Information are BGG wiki pages, editable by all users by clicking the "edit" link.

Indeed there are many things about BGG that are not immediately obvious to new users.

Posted Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:18 am
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Rainer Habekost

(TF22)

Germany
Riede

duchamp wrote:

russ wrote:

You have not responded in this thread about pressuring people to pay you royalties for FMP. I am very interested in that question.

Here the link to an old thread from the German spielbox Forum. Andreas Steding (now better known as designer of Hansa Teutonica), is asking:
"I auction a game on ebay and got an e-mail requesting to pay 30 Euros, because somebody has a patent (this was a wrong assumption, it is a bout the trademark [duchamp]) (the game is Full Metal Planete), is this allowed or a stupid rip-off?"

http://www.spielbox.de/phorum4/read.php4?f=1&i=146362&t=1463...

Ah, o.k., thank you for the source!
And i was involved?

Posted Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:20 am
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Daniel Danzer

(duchamp)

Germany
Stuttgart
southwest

TF22 wrote:

duchamp wrote:

Here the link to an old thread from the German spielbox Forum. Andreas Steding (now better known as designer of Hansa Teutonica), is asking:
"I auction a game on ebay and got an e-mail requesting to pay 30 Euros, because somebody has a patent (this was a wrong assumption, it is a bout the trademark [duchamp]) (the game is Full Metal Planete), is this allowed or a stupid rip-off?"

http://www.spielbox.de/phorum4/read.php4?f=1&i=146362&t=1463...

Ah, o.k., thank you for the source!
And i was involved?

Well, Andreas Steding got an e-mail by the owner of the trademark, as he states here:
http://www.spielbox.de/phorum4/read.php4?f=1&i=146384&t=1463...&

Since the trademark mentioned shares the number with yours, I think, yes, you`ve been involved.

Edited Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:47 pm
Posted Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:57 am
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Rainer Habekost

(TF22)

Germany
Riede

duchamp wrote:

TF22 wrote:

duchamp wrote:

Here the link to an old thread from the German spielbox Forum. Andreas Steding (now better known as designer of Hansa Teutonica), is asking:
"I auction a game on ebay and got an e-mail requesting to pay 30 Euros, because somebody has a patent (this was a wrong assumption, it is a bout the trademark [duchamp]) (the game is Full Metal Planete), is this allowed or a stupid rip-off?"

http://www.spielbox.de/phorum4/read.php4?f=1&i=146362&t=1463...

Ah, o.k., thank you for the source!
And i was involved?

Well, Andreas Steding got an e-mail by the owner of the trademark, as he states here:
http://www.spielbox.de/phorum4/read.php4?f=1&i=146384&t=1463...&

Since the trademark mentioned shares the number with yours, I think, yes, you`ve been involved.

Are you sure?
This is the trademark but this is public knowledge as you found out yourself.
That is why i'm a bit restricted and wanted to search for possible communications to such a topic perhaps within my personal archives.
But i do not have stored email communications of 5 years back.

Therefore i stated my apologizes in advance but at the moment i don't think it's me.

You intended i am the owner / sender of emails because i am the owner of the trademark.

I don't think so at the moment but have not the material at hand to make a proof myself with my own data.

Posted Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:27 pm
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Daniel Danzer

(duchamp)

Germany
Stuttgart
southwest

The trademark was published at 09/01/06. Andreas posted at the spielbox forum one week later. You imply now, that somebody else has tracked your trademark and asked Andreas to pay him 30 Euros for violating his trademark pretending he was you.
Thanks for sharing this interesting theory.

Posted Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:46 pm
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Rainer Habekost

(TF22)

Germany
Riede

duchamp wrote:

The trademark was published at 09/01/06. Andreas posted at the spielbox forum one week later. You imply now, that somebody else has tracked your trademark and asked Andreas to pay him 30 Euros for violating his trademark pretending he was you.
Thanks for sharing this interesting theory.

I agree this sounds a bit weird but at the moment i'm a little bit cautious about denying/confirming points that are written here and judged as facts at the moment they're written although unproofed or simply false.

Your implication about "i have the trademark registered so surely i'm the bad guy and have to be the one harrazing others" is the same interesting theory.

I give you some more examples from the discussions here:

"Previous years in Essen FMP redo was sold in essen"
and
"Two years ago I saw it in the hall with the LARP's for sale"
Surely it was meant to be i was the guy of the "previous years" although i was the first time in 2010 in Essen as seller

and

"you want to claim your game is just like FMP"
-> anwsered

and

"It is just an illegal act, IMO"
-> anwsered

and

"You call yourself the autor of TF22. But you aren't. "
-> anwsered

and

"a ruthless businessman"
-> anwsered

Posted Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:39 pm
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Daniel Danzer

(duchamp)

Germany
Stuttgart
southwest

TF22 wrote:

"It is just an illegal act, IMO"
-> anwsered

http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/urhg/__23.html

"§ 23 Bearbeitungen und Umgestaltungen

Bearbeitungen oder andere Umgestaltungen des Werkes dürfen nur mit Einwilligung des Urhebers des bearbeiteten oder umgestalteten Werkes veröffentlicht oder verwertet werden."

German law text about copyright (no official translation, just by me):
"§ 23 Adaptations and transformations

Adaptations or other transformations of the work are only allowed to publish or use by agreement with the original author / designer of the adapted or transformed work."

You clearly stated, that, even if there are enough differences to make TF22 not the same game as FMP, you re-implemented it with tweaks (call it a "variant") and new artwork. Sure enough, it is still based on the very same system invented, tested, copyrighted and published by somebody else.

I remind you of "Laras Tochter", a sequel of "Dr Shivago" published in Germany. Since it used a couple of figures from the original it was forbidden by the Federal Court of Justice, because the copyright is NOT only valid for the actual text, but the "constructive elements" ("schöpferische Elemente") like the scenery, the characteristics of the figures, and so on. Now, the tides, the mining, the pontons, the whole system and gameplay ideas of FMP are identical with TF22.

Now, everybody can make up his own mind.

Posted Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:16 pm
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Rainer Habekost

(TF22)

Germany
Riede

duchamp wrote:

TF22 wrote:

"It is just an illegal act, IMO"
-> anwsered

http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/urhg/__23.html

"§ 23 Bearbeitungen und Umgestaltungen

Bearbeitungen oder andere Umgestaltungen des Werkes dürfen nur mit Einwilligung des Urhebers des bearbeiteten oder umgestalteten Werkes veröffentlicht oder verwertet werden."

German law text about copyright (no official translation, just by me):
"§ 23 Adaptations and transformations

Adaptations or other transformations of the work are only allowed to publish or use by agreement with the original author / designer of the adapted or transformed work."

You clearly stated, that, even if there are enough differences to make TF22 not the same game as FMP, you re-implemented it with tweaks (call it a "variant") and new artwork. Sure enough, it is still based on the very same system invented, tested, copyrighted and published by somebody else.

I remind you of "Laras Tochter", a sequel of "Dr Shivago" published in Germany. Since it used a couple of figures from the original it was forbidden by the Federal Court of Justice, because the copyright is NOT only valid for the actual text, but the "constructive elements" ("schöpferische Elemente") like the scenery, the characteristics of the figures, and so on. Now, the tides, the mining, the pontons, the whole system and gameplay ideas of FMP are identical with TF22.

Now, everybody can make up his own mind.

I'm impressed, you follow you way:

Throwing in some unproofed or false facts like
"Now, the tides, the mining, the pontons, the whole system and gameplay ideas of FMP are identical with TF22. "

and everyone can make his own judgements based on what you wrote,
excellent.

But this is simply false.

May i ask for whom you're working as a laywer and have you asked for permission if they want to be defended by you?

Posted Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:32 pm
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Daniel Danzer

(duchamp)

Germany
Stuttgart
southwest

This is just a forum and I post what I think here. It is as simple as that.

Posted Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:10 pm
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Rainer Habekost

(TF22)

Germany
Riede

duchamp wrote:

This is just a forum and I post what I think here. It is as simple as that.

O.k., then i suggest we stop our personal discussion at this point.

Can we agree on:

I state TF22 is a new product, not violating any rights.

You state it is a clone/copy violating other's rights.

BTW, did you found a publisher for your London Ice?

Posted Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:22 pm
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Daniel Danzer

(duchamp)

Germany
Stuttgart
southwest

TF22 wrote:

O.k., then i suggest we stop our personal discussion at this point.

I will stop and re-start as I wish. And it was never and is not a "personal discussion".

Posted Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:36 pm
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Rainer Habekost

(TF22)

Germany
Riede

duchamp wrote:

This is just a forum and I post what I think here. It is as simple as that.

Yes, surely.

Posted Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:46 pm
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Rainer Habekost

(TF22)

Germany
Riede

duchamp wrote:

TF22 wrote:

O.k., then i suggest we stop our personal discussion at this point.

I will stop and re-start as I wish. And it was never and is not a "personal discussion".

Yes, surely.

Posted Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:46 pm
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Geoff Speare

(galfridus)

United States
Bedford
Massachusetts

tee hee, that tickles!!!

I recall hearing at the time that the makers of Scepter sought permission to use the Outpost mechanics (see also http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/142675/tao-of-gaming-rev...).

Posted Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:20 pm
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Kevin Whitmore

(Kevin_Whitmore)

United States
Albuquerque
New Mexico

galfridus wrote:

I recall hearing at the time that the makers of Scepter sought permission to use the Outpost mechanics (see also http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/142675/tao-of-gaming-rev...).

Thanks Geoff, It would seem that the cases I cited in my original blog entry, all have some author's blessing behind them;

Scepter - as explained by Brian Bankler, and cited by Geoff, did have James Hlavaty's blessing.

Dune - Based on some text on Andrew Tullsen's pages, it would seem the authors (Eberle, Kittredge and Olotka) get 5 - 10% of the revenues he garners, and presumably have given their permission. (I suspect the Herbert family is still suffering from some degree of infringement - but I kinda doubt many people care.)

Merchant of Venus - Same deal. It would seem that Richard Hamblen is getting 5-10% of all sales, and has presumably given his permission.

So the more I am exposed to the arguments above, the more uneasy I am feeling about TF22. In general, I want to be supportive of game authors, and it disturbs me to think that all 3 authors of Full Metal Planete might disapprove of TF22.

But I am hardly perfect. I own a copy of McMulti, and will admit I never once really stopped to consider if it was an ethical purchase. I now know that the author was not compensated for my copy of McMulti.

I guess, in my mind, I would feel better about buying TF22 if even the two authors of FMP, who wish to see it back in print, were being compensated. I realize Rainer is stating his work is original - and I'm not informed enough to make a judgement for or against this assertion - but the only reason I am interested in TF22 is because of Full Metal Planet.

Posted Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:16 pm
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Guido Gloor

(haslo)

Switzerland
Ostermundigen
Bern

The statement below is false.

The statement above is correct.

This was very enlightening.

I think the fundamental difference between the Dune and MoV reprints on one hand and this one on the other hand is: In both cases, gamers and people who know the rules to the games clearly say that yes, indeed, it's the same game, with maybe minor changes, and they do not claim ownership for the game property. The game is either given away for free, or sold for profit by people who clearly credit and compensate (if they even get any money for it themselves) those who originally invented the mechanics.

In the case of TF22, the game's author states that it is an entirely new invention he is selling and that it has nothing to do with the game that he sold until a few weeks ago, and where the two games seem to share anywhere between 80% and 97% of rules with each other, according to knowledgeable people who played the old game and read the new game's rules. No credit to the inventors of the inspiring game is given, but the inspiring game's famous name is used for advertisement.

Sorry, but this just strikes me as very cold and egoistical. I might be wrong, that's just my impression. To me, you seem to be in games for the money and not for the games. This does make a difference.

Edited Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:50 am
Posted Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:49 am
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Rainer Habekost

(TF22)

Germany
Riede

haslo wrote:

No credit to the inventors of the inspiring game is given, but the inspiring game's famous name is used for advertisement.

Absolutely wrong!
To this point i did no advertising at all. The only thing i did is setting the german website online.

I do not advertise it using another ones's game name and will not do.
Where do you have this from - it is simply false?!

As i said before, i have not listed TF22 on BGG.
I did not write the description of the game here on BGG.
I gave no judgement / hint / whatever TF22 is in a context with any other games.

If you're interested and consider buying it please do it only for the game TF22 itself.

If you feel uncomfortable with any part of the game, then you won't buy it as you would do with any other item (or game).

Posted Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:43 am
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Rainer Habekost

(TF22)

Germany
Riede

Kevin_Whitmore wrote:

[q="galfridus"]
I realize Rainer is stating his work is original - and I'm not informed enough to make a judgement for or against this assertion - but the only reason I am interested in TF22 is because of Full Metal Planet.

Kevin,
thank you for these clear sentences!
Others feel they're completely informed, mixing "their" knowledge with false facts and having a judgement at the same moment - as it seems to me.

If you're only interested in TF22 because of Full Metal Planete, then i recommend NOT to buy TF22 as it is not Full Metal Planete. Then i recommend buying Full Metal Planete.

Posted Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:53 am
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Michael Kröhnert

(Michel)

Germany
Aachen

TF22 wrote:

haslo wrote:

No credit to the inventors of the inspiring game is given, but the inspiring game's famous name is used for advertisement.

Absolutely wrong!
To this point i did no advertising at all. The only thing i did is setting the german website online.

I do not advertise it using another ones's game name and will not do.
Where do you have this from - it is simply false?!

How far have we come in such a short amount of time ...

TF22 wrote:

Peerchen wrote:

So in your opinion: Is it "inspired by FMP" or is it a redefined Version?

from these options i would choose "inspired by"

Posted Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:52 am
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Russ Williams

(russ)

Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk

Michel wrote:

TF22 wrote:

haslo wrote:

No credit to the inventors of the inspiring game is given, but the inspiring game's famous name is used for advertisement.

Absolutely wrong!
To this point i did no advertising at all. The only thing i did is setting the german website online.

I do not advertise it using another ones's game name and will not do.
Where do you have this from - it is simply false?!

How far have we come in such a short amount of time ...

TF22 wrote:

Peerchen wrote:

So in your opinion: Is it "inspired by FMP" or is it a redefined Version?

from these options i would choose "inspired by"

In fairness, I see the distinction being made: the "absolutely wrong" was in response to the assertion that FMP's name is being used for advertisement of TF22. And indeed it seems FMP's name is not being used for advertisement of TF22.

I gather that it's not being denied that FMP was an inspiration for TF22.

In principle, making a new game inspired by an old game seems fine and normal and happens all the time. Magic the Gathering inspired a huge wave of CCGs, Dominion inspired a huge wave of deck-building games, We the People inspired many card-driven wargames, etc etc. Creators see farther by standing on the shoulders of giants, there's nothing new under the sun, everything is a remix, and all that jazz.

In practice, the gray area is when the new game seems "too similar" to the old game, as many have argued is the case here. E.g. it would be wrong to publish a new game "Settlers of Foo" which is just like "Settlers of Catan" except the card deck has 2 extra Knight cards and each player has 1 extra road piece. Unfortunately there's no objective definition or way to measure "similarity"...

Posted Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:09 am
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Rainer Habekost

(TF22)

Germany
Riede

Michel wrote:

TF22 wrote:

haslo wrote:

No credit to the inventors of the inspiring game is given, but the inspiring game's famous name is used for advertisement.

Absolutely wrong!
To this point i did no advertising at all. The only thing i did is setting the german website online.

I do not advertise it using another ones's game name and will not do.
Where do you have this from - it is simply false?!

How far have we come in such a short amount of time ...

TF22 wrote:

Peerchen wrote:

So in your opinion: Is it "inspired by FMP" or is it a redefined Version?

from these options i would choose "inspired by"

In these kind of question i was forced to choose between two options. I was not comfortable with both options but not to anwser would have been laid out to my drawback as well - as it is now choosing one of the answered forced. So i only had the chance to choose a bad option for my taste...
And now you copy it into a content with the question/statement of advertising, too.
So i feel your intention of your post/question to show i do advertise and my comments are .. whatever...

I'm not sure if this leads to anything useful...

Perhaps these options:

If you want to condemn TF22, do it.
If you want to buy it, do it.
If you do not want to buy it, don't buy it.
If you want to play FMP, get you an exemplar of FMP.
If you want to take proceeds against it, send me you lawyer
else?

Posted Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:13 am
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Michael Kröhnert

(Michel)

Germany
Aachen

TF22 wrote:

In these kind of question i was forced to choose between two options. I was not comfortable with both options but not to anwser would have been laid out to my drawback as well - as it is now choosing one of the answered forced. So i only had the chance to choose a bad option for my taste...
And now you copy it into a content with the question/statement of advertising, too.

I would never have done this if your answer would have been "in no way connected to that other game" in the first place.
This would have been easy to figure out, but consistent ...

Posted Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:30 am
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Rainer Habekost

(TF22)

Germany
Riede

Michel wrote:

TF22 wrote:

In these kind of question i was forced to choose between two options. I was not comfortable with both options but not to anwser would have been laid out to my drawback as well - as it is now choosing one of the answered forced. So i only had the chance to choose a bad option for my taste...
And now you copy it into a content with the question/statement of advertising, too.

I would never have done this if your answer would have been "in no way connected to that other game" in the first place.
This would have been easy to figure out, but consistent ...

I think i've already done so, several times, for example:

TF22 wrote:

to Nearly identical:
- completely new designed game plan
- completely new designed minis
- completely new designed rules
- completely new designed arts and graphics
- completely new designed additional game stuff
- completely new game box solution
- completely new expansion module for 3D-game plan layouts

As i stated before, some of the game mechanics are comparable

and

TF22 wrote:

I never claimed something for TF22 in context with FMP.
This is done within the discussions here.
I've never claimed TF22 is just like FMP or something like that.

and

TF22 wrote:

It is not the intention to sell TF22 in a context with FMP.
This is not the goal. It is a new product.
I adress TF22 simply as a new product without any context.

and

TF22 wrote:

I do not advertise it using another ones's game name and will not do.
Where do you have this from - it is simply false?!

Posted Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:46 am
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bruno faidutti

(faidutti)

France
LES ANGLES

I don't like this....

If one of my games were out of print, and someone homemade a dozen copies for friends, or even sold them for no profit, I wouldn't mind.

If one of my games were out of print, and someone published it professionally, ptinted a few thousand copies and made even minimal profit from it, I would be very angry. I would probably not spend time and money to sue him, but I would be angry nevertheless.

What makes the TF22 case even more problematic is that the "publisher" probably knows that the original authors, who never agreed on publishing the game again, will also probably never agree on making a common legal action, so he takes no real risk. However, if this were the opportunity to bring them together against a common ennemy, it would be all for good...

Posted Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:49 pm
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Michael Kröhnert

(Michel)

Germany
Aachen

faidutti wrote:

However, if this were the opportunity to bring them together against a common ennemy, it would be all for good...

My thoughts (and my hope) exactly.

Posted Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:58 pm
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Peter Sbirakos

(madkarateman)

Australia
Canberra, ACT
ACT

ScottE wrote:

Also, forgot to mention, Full Metal Planete has an official PnP version available so anyone can make their own. I've debated about making it myself though the art files are pretty marginal. But if the designers are fine to give it away, should anyone be upset if someone makes a new similar edition?

hiya Scott,

I'm about to begin crafting your Dune rebuild which i'm looking forward to.

And for years have wanted FMP like others here. But this new "reimplementation" known as TF22 (or rather the way it has come about) has turned me off like rotten fish.

So given your terrific skills in art and graphic design, any chance you can do a PnP version of FMP? I was going to craft up FMP using the original PnP files but they aren't the best unfortunately...

Edited Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:46 am
Posted Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:24 am
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Scott Everts

(ScottE)

United States
Foothill Ranch
California

MITCHELL!!!

Push the button, Frank!

madkarateman wrote:

ScottE wrote:

Also, forgot to mention, Full Metal Planete has an official PnP version available so anyone can make their own. I've debated about making it myself though the art files are pretty marginal. But if the designers are fine to give it away, should anyone be upset if someone makes a new similar edition?

hiya Scott,

I'm about to begin crafting your Dune rebuild which i'm looking forward to.

And for years have wanted FMP like others here. But this new "reimplementation" known as TF22 (or rather the way it has come about) has turned me off like rotten fish.

So given your terrific skills in art and graphic design, any chance you can do a PnP version of FMP? I was going to craft up FMP using the original PnP files but they aren't the best unfortunately...

Sorry for the extremely late reply. I was no longer subscribed to this thread and just re-read it again so didn't see this until now.

I just recently moved FMP back on the list of potential redesigns I'm thinking of doing. It was on the "shelved" list for quite awhile since I hadn't come up with a good way to do the map. But recently I've been experimenting with some terrain rendering software and it shows promise to make a really cool looking map. If I do do this, it will be several months at least before I can put in some serious work on it. I've got a few projects ahead of this. But might do some mockup stuff this weekend to see how the map might turn out. Not sure how I would do the counters but will probably model them in 3D Studio Max or Sketchup. I'm alittle rusty on Max but could use the practice so might do it in that.

So, as of right now its a maybe, leaning towards probably!

Posted Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:52 pm
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Guido Gloor

(haslo)

Switzerland
Ostermundigen
Bern

The statement below is false.

The statement above is correct.

ScottE wrote:

I just recently moved FMP back on the list of potential redesigns I'm thinking of doing.

Just be careful to not knock off any of the incredibly unique features of TF22. He might sue you.

Edited Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:49 am
Posted Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:48 am
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Scott Everts

(ScottE)

United States
Foothill Ranch
California

MITCHELL!!!

Push the button, Frank!

haslo wrote:

ScottE wrote:

I just recently moved FMP back on the list of potential redesigns I'm thinking of doing.

Just be careful to not knock off any of the incredibly unique features of TF22. He might sue you.

Man, I hope I don't have to worry about that! I'll be sure not to put any "Full Metal Planet" text or logos anywhere just to be safe.

Posted Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:50 am
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