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Why everyone's talking about theme, and nobody is talking about theme.

Peter Darby
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It's common to talk of the subject of a game as it's "theme", as in "the theme of Settlers is colonizing an island" or "the theme of Ticket to Ride is building railway routes."

As an humanities graduate, this bugs me.

Let's take an example from literature, what is the theme of "Romeo and Juliet"?

Everyone who said "forbidden love", take ten points.

Everyone who said "Renaissance Verona", congratulations, you too can write board game reviews. Sadly, that's it's setting, not it's theme.

Everyone who said "Ooh, it's about this boy and this girl", well, nearly, Romeo and Juliet are the subject of the play "Romeo and Juliet", but they're not the theme.

Similarly, the setting of "Citizen Kane" is the upper echelons of early 20th century US society, it's subject is the life of Charles Foster Kane and it's theme, gosh, we could debate that all night, but I'd plump for "The emptiness of material success."

So subject and setting are pretty easy to pin down for most subjects of critical analysis, but theme, the meaning of a work, that can be very hard to agree on (or in some cases, find).

So what about board games?

The setting of Settlers of Catan is, well, Catan.

The subject of Settlers of Catan is, well, the settling of Catan.

The theme... well, that gets interesting doesn't it? I'd argue that Settlers theme is a model of basic economic theory, that trading unequally distributed resources can be mutually beneficial (though not equitably beneficial), or in a nutshell "Competitive co-operation."

So, if theme is "What the game is saying about it's setting and subject", that can help to articulate what we feel about a game.

As an example, Arkham Horror and Munchkin Cthulhu share a great deal in terms of setting and subject. Setting, Lovecraft's horror infested new England, subject, investigators confronting horrific entities.

However, the theme of Arkham Horror is "Co-operative struggle to prevent disaster in the face of overwhelming odds", while that of Munchkin Cthulhu is "Kill monsters, take their stuff, stab the other players". I would say.

And to a great extent your enjoyment of each would depend on the thematic treatment of the subject: anyone liking serious interpretations of the Cthulhu mythos may be disappointed to find Munchkin Cthulhu in their stocking come Christmas.

So yes, a lot of this is nitpicking, and you can go through a lot of discussion of theme in boardgames with the mental note "for THEME read SUBJECT" and it will be fine.

But the fact that boardgames can have genuine themes is interesting to me, and not been greatly explored outside of deliberately constructed "art" games.

Bonus question; What's the theme of Ticket to Ride?
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Subscribe sub options Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:44 pm
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Kevin B. Smith
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Reminds me of this blog post by NateStraight earlier this year: "It really captures the almond harvest feel" -- Some Thoughts on Theme ( http://boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/849/it-really-captures-the...)

Quote:
Thinking in terms of pseudo-literary "themes" allows us both to talk about games more interestingly, and to better explain what it is like to play a game, than if we use standard "theme" and "mechanic" explanations.

It's not enough to say "It's a game about vampires" or "It's a worker placement game". Neither of these really say much, if anything, about the game: the choices you make and the goals you seek, those game-defining features.


(Is it just me, or is the Insert Geek Link/blog posts feature broken?)

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  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:37 pm
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Peter Darby
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I hadn't seen that blogpost before... it, err, moves about a bit doesn't it?

I prefer to stick to a simple formulation:

Subject: what a (book / film / game) is about.

Theme; what a (book/ film / game) means.

Also, as a footnote, Scott Nicholson is right, we should be talking about mechanisms, not mechanics.
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  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:45 pm
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Theme to Ticket to Ride?

Pffft. That's easy.

Galactic Domination Steampunk.
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  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:45 pm
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I'll respectfully disagree with you regarding board game themes. Literature frequently and necessarily needs multiple themes. Board games are like short stories (at least the poor short stories I used to write) that have only one setting, one atmosphere, and usually only one theme. Because of the compressed nature of the majority of board games, the setting implies the thematic elements.

Being told a game's theme is Lovecraftian immediately evokes cooperation, struggle with implacable evil, and humanity's insignificance in the cosmos. A Tolkien theme implies heroic quest, struggle against overwhelming odds, etc. A WWII wargame may be set in Germany or Russia, etc, but the theme of the game is implicit, regardless. So the setting and theme are usually synonymous in the world of board games, in my board game world anyway.

There are certainly exceptions. I'd be curious to list games where the setting and theme are not what we'd expect. Does that make for a better game, or worse?
 
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  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:51 pm
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Nice (^_^)

Perhaps this is the reason I squint at Euros. They are too transparently econimic for me. I need great art and a different kind of numbers game.

And, having never played TtR, I would say the answer is "choking the options from your opponents," the same theme that Taluva has, but I find Taluva to have a thematic package that I enjoy: Island setting, the ability to crush villages, and a building scheme that appeals--huts, big huts and temples rather than trains. Also, I can destroy my OWN villages and that actually serves a strategic purpose. Any game with destruction is a game worth looking at.
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  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:03 pm
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Peter Darby
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greekramos wrote:

Being told a game's theme is Lovecraftian immediately evokes cooperation, struggle with implacable evil, and humanity's insignificance in the cosmos. A Tolkien theme implies heroic quest, struggle against overwhelming odds, etc. A WWII wargame may be set in Germany or Russia, etc, but the theme of the game is implicit, regardless. So the setting and theme are usually synonymous in the world of board games, in my board game world anyway.


Well, I'd respectfully take your examples and use them to refute you: already in the blog I talk about how the same, lovecraftian setting for Arkham Horror and Munchkin Cthulhu but they have very different themes (supported by very different mechanisms, which I'll get into in another blog).

A tolkien game may imply heroic quest, or it may (like the Hobbit boardgame) center on cunning theivery, or even Tolkien trivia (as in, err, the Tolkien Triva game).

I don't think all WWII games will have the same theme, and then that's a product of a combination of more specific setting (Western Europe, Eastern Europe, Pacific), level of scale (personal, platoon, brigade, operational, grand strategy) and mechanisms.

But thanks for your response, as it's provoking my next mini-blogging...
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  • Edited Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:30 pm
  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:30 pm
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Andy Leber
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A great read, and I don't necessarily disagree with anything. That being said, I'll play devil's advocate for a moment.

2 main points. One, comparing a board game to movies, literature etc can certainly be apples and oranges. And two, I think "theme" can have more than one meaning.

Regarding the second, the meaning of theme: Websters says (paraphrased)

1: A subject or topic of an artistic representation (what you based your writing on)

2: A specific and distinct quality, or characteristic


I'd say definition #2 can be applied more broadly... like painting colors in your house, following a certain "theme", or changing a "theme" on your cell phone. In this case, a theme is almost like a "skin".

So you could substitute "setting" in your example of board games, with "theme".

And I suppose at that point, the setting then becomes "a board", or "A table".


Edited for spelling and clarity.
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  • Edited Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:41 pm
  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:40 pm
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William McCarroll
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I think that, although board games are getting to the point where they can achieve a meaningful literary theme, they are still in their infancy when it comes to exploring those areas.

English is an evolving language, and while saying "you too can write board game reviews" as a snarky (and slightly insulting) way of asserting that theme can only be used in one sense may be hyperbolic, I believe that it is incorrect to assert such a narrow definition to the word.

Take theme parks: does theme here refer to the corporate Conditioning of our children to consumerism? Probably not, it probably just refers to the setting.

How about a theme song? Obviously this refers to the central struggle of the sit-com character, to break through the horrible social, and psychological hurdles he faces in dealing with a similarly neurotic cast.... Or just happy music to prompt the viewer that this is a comedy.

Or a themed birthday party? Today Little Timmy turns 6, and his birthday is all about the futile struggle of progress before the gaping maw of oblivion that is the human condition... Or dinosaurs. One of those.

How about the desktop theme on my computer. That must stand for antisocial isolation, and the struggle to love myself before I feel worthy of love from others. Or it's blue and red, with a picture of a penguin.

Theme has evolved in our language to mean not just literary theme, but the look and feel of something. The term theme is widely understood to mean that, and in the context of a board game review, clear communication is important. If using the word "theme" is understood as the fictional conceit that makes the game work, then it's appropriate to use.

Like the words "awful" and "artificial", "theme" is evolving.

Board games are too, though, and I don't see it being too far away before we are discussing the meaningful literary themes of our games.
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  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:42 pm
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Darrell Hanning
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pete_darby wrote:

Also, as a footnote, Scott Nicholson is right, we should be talking about mechanisms, not mechanics.


OMG, another voice of reason.
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  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:04 pm
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Yup, still in it's infancy, by while "theme" is used exclusively as "subject" or "setting", it can't go anywhere.

I should have set my stall out more clearly at the outset of the post: I'll have to take another post to do that.

For now, I'll leave it that, in terms of developing a critical language for discussing games, "theme" is a lousy synonym for subject or setting, and can have a more useful meaning.

But yeah, I'm currently coming off like the jerk who says "Irish themed pub? Sorry, but it says nothing about the potato famine, the struggle for independence or religious partisanship, the word is MEANINGLESS."
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  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:06 pm
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Doesn't a theme in the context of literature imply intent? Is it reasonable to assume that if the author had no such intent, but the reader believed it so, then there is a theme?

And if so, what if none of these game authors cared a whit about theme (in the sense we are discussing)? They were just trying to make a fun game with a cool setting.

All and all an interesting topic.
 
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  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:10 pm
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Darrell Hanning
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pete_darby wrote:
I don't think all WWII games will have the same theme, and then that's a product of a combination of more specific setting (Western Europe, Eastern Europe, Pacific), level of scale (personal, platoon, brigade, operational, grand strategy) and mechanisms.

But thanks for your response, as it's provoking my next mini-blogging...


It'll never catch on - I warn you now - but I agree with you and your reasoning.

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  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:11 pm
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Daniel Cepeda
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hezkezl wrote:

Or a themed birthday party? Today Little Timmy turns 6, and his birthday is all about the futile struggle of progress before the gaping maw of oblivion that is the human condition... Or dinosaurs. One of those.


ROFLOLMAOIRLSAUSAGE laughlaugh
 
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  • Edited Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:23 pm
  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:23 pm
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If we're not careful, we're going to start talking about authorial intent, active readership and the death of the authorial voice, which should not be done outside of a venue serving alcohol.

BUT I'll just say now: literary theories of theme etc are predicated on "the work is created by the artist then consumed by the audience, and the authorial intent may not be the meaning that the audience takes away."

Which does not fully work when the audience are also the performers and co-authors.

So I'm trying to develop a critical language in an area where I find that existing critical language is useful, but not entirely adequate.

As for creating a work with a theme when you didn't mean to... hell, it happens all the time. I don't think Shakespeare gave a crap about theme, or what his plays "mean", but that doesn't mean that they don't have themes or mean nothing beyond a cracking story.
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  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:37 pm
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DarrellKH wrote:


It'll never catch on - I warn you now - but I agree with you and your reasoning.



My middle name is Quixotic. After my uncle.
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  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:38 pm
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All games are abstract. What's the theme of Checkers?
 
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  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:00 pm
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garygarison wrote:
All games are abstract. What's the theme of Checkers?


I think it's something about pushing forward until you're successful enough to move whichever way you want... :-)

Victory in wealth.
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  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:05 pm
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DarrellKH wrote:
pete_darby wrote:

Also, as a footnote, Scott Nicholson is right, we should be talking about mechanisms, not mechanics.


OMG, another voice of reason.


Referring to the interplay of the rules of a game as "mechanics" is acceptable. I don't know if Scott Nicholson makes the differentiation, but referring to all of the rules in a game as the game's mechanics would be correct. referring to an individual rule as a mechanic, would not.

The mechanisms in a game make up the game's mechanics. "mechanics" describes the interaction of the parts of a machine or system. (This is why we have fields of study in physics like quantum mechanics, classical mechanics, newtonian mechanics, etc.).

Using "mechanic" to describe a singular mechanism, however, is not correct (unless, i suppose it is a rule that someone has added to fix the game ). But I would argue that this is another word that is evolving with the language, and trying to change it from morphing is futile. As our language separates itself more and more from it's roots, people try to fit language into the rules that they understand. i.e. to make something plural, you usually add an "s", so people assume, based on their rules, that the singular of mechanics (which is fallacious, as "mechanics" is singular to begin with), must be mechanic.

Though, of note in this matter, the game De Vulgari Eloquentia has a theme (in the literary sense) that reflects this malleability of language, as Latin morphs into Italian.
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  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:21 pm
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hezkezl wrote:
DarrellKH wrote:
pete_darby wrote:

Also, as a footnote, Scott Nicholson is right, we should be talking about mechanisms, not mechanics.


OMG, another voice of reason.


Referring to the interplay of the rules of a game as "mechanics" is acceptable.


I understand and appreciate the distinction you make; however, that is not the distinction with which the term is used, the overwhelming majority of time you see it, on BGG. (Gee, I guess that makes it kind of like the usage of "theme".)
 
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  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:52 pm
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Very interesting discussion. This:

Most of what everyone here wrote:
Lots of intelligent and well-thought-out discussion.


Made for a lot of thoughtful pondering over my coffee.

Aaaaand then we have this:

hezkezl wrote:
...
Or a themed birthday party? Today Little Timmy turns 6, and his birthday is all about the futile struggle of progress before the gaping maw of oblivion that is the human condition... Or dinosaurs. One of those.
...


Which made for a lot of mopping up afore-mentioned coffee after it shot out of my nose while I tried laughing through a freaking mouthful of it.

I really should learn to not have food or drink near me while I'm on BGG...
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  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:14 pm
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garygarison wrote:
All games are abstract. What's the theme of Checkers?


The pursuit of power by a combination of territorial reach and destruction of opposing forces. Inflexibility of action until sufficient superiority is gained.
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  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:59 pm
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pete_darby wrote:
garygarison wrote:
All games are abstract. What's the theme of Checkers?


The pursuit of power by a combination of territorial reach and destruction of opposing forces. Inflexibility of action until sufficient superiority is gained.

That sounds more like game theory than the basis of a work of fiction.
 
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  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:07 pm
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garygarison wrote:
pete_darby wrote:


The pursuit of power by a combination of territorial reach and destruction of opposing forces. Inflexibility of action until sufficient superiority is gained.

That sounds more like game theory than the basis of a work of fiction.


You say potato...
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  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:28 am
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Mathematicians don't concern themselves with "forbidden love".
 
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  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:43 am
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garygarison wrote:
Mathematicians don't concern themselves with "forbidden love".


No wonder they're so moody.
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  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:56 am
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Best reason to study Humanities. Though I must admit, lab coats can be pretty sexy.
 
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  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:12 am
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garygarison wrote:
All games are abstract. What's the theme of Checkers?
Amusing, but I actually think it gets to the point. All games are inherently an abstraction of some other process. So your definition of theme linking to "meaning" is very often going to take a analogical tone - "when I put this disc on this space, that 'means' I'm sending a person to go get me some stuff, or build something." Theme, rightly IMHO, is usually used in the sense of referring to what the actions taken in a board game are supposed to represent.

I do absolutely love the idea of taking things further and asking what those implied actions "mean" in a moral/ethical/spiritual/political/etc... sense. However, most board games are primarily intended to create interesting logic puzzles instead of asking profound moral questions, and even games which have a narrative focus are generally more interested in creating "cool" or "exciting" scenarios than ones with rich moral implications. It's just not why most people game.

Let it be said that I don't regard this as a positive. I would be thrilled to see more games with moral implications. I just don't think it really addresses the reasons most people play games, humanities students aside.
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  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:09 pm
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If I may go completely off the wafty, pretentious deep end here...

Anytime you make a decision, you're making a statement of some kind, whether in art, games or life, intentionally or not. Our lives are packed with meaning and quantum packets of significance.

Games are, for the most part, designed to pose an artificial challenge, but the choices of the designer in how the challenge is framed, how it can be met, which approaches are valid, which are rewarded, which are punished, and how the players assess those challenges, jam packed with potential thematic messages.

Which are for the most part ignored, yes. Because the challenge is the focus. But that doesn;t men they aren't there and of potential interest.

And I'll post something else in a mo, if I have time before I have to go....
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  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:43 pm
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jerubbaal wrote:
garygarison wrote:
All games are abstract. What's the theme of Checkers?
Amusing, but I actually think it gets to the point. All games are inherently an abstraction of some other process.


I sometimes feel like I get over technical when I address these things. Maybe it's the programmer in me that attempts to deconstruct things to their smallest part, but stories are just as abstract as games, when it comes to theme.

At its root, a story is a narration of descrete actions. "The man turns his head, and looks back at the empty room, sighing. He turns back towards the door, places his hand on the doorknob and opens the door. He steps through, and closes the door behind him, without looking back."

That's a description of motions, fairly abstract. But we put meaning into those motions. Sighing, not looking back, an empty room. We add enotional meaning to those things based on our own experiences.

Literature, especially when it comes to theme, is full of metaphor. The theme of those two sentences could be "the acceptance of the past, and transitioning to a new future". Which would completely be adding meaning to abstraction.

Games have the ability to deliver this through backstory, and setting, facilitated by gameplay. Even abstracts can achieve this through interpretation.

I write the occasional board game review, and I love addressing this topic. My review of Forbidden Island addresses interpretation of theme a bit, and my Mansions of Madness review talks a bit about the story that can be derived from abstract play a little.

Forbidden Island - A Nerdbloggers review about global destruction.
Mansions of Madness and Story in Games - A Nerdbloggers Review
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  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:55 pm
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jerubbaal wrote:
All games are inherently an abstraction of some other process. So your definition of theme linking to "meaning" is very often going to take a analogical tone - "when I put this disc on this space, that 'means' I'm sending a person to go get me some stuff, or build something."

Hmmmm. I don't think I can agree with that bolded statement. Take Craps. How in the world can that be counted as anything other than a pure abstract? What real-life process is it abstracting?

Or Tic-Tac-Toe. I suspect that any analogies to war (or any other real-world process) have been applied after-the-fact. Just because you see knights in the X's and O's doesn't mean they are really there. Perhaps thousands of years ago it actually was invented as an abstraction of something in daily life, but that connection has surely been lost by now.

Back to the real topic. When I first saw this argument that we should use "setting" instead of "theme", I agreed. Until I heard the argument about themed parties. If the ship hadn't already sailed by then, that certainly put a nail in the coffin (to mix analogies). I think it is useful to talk about the setting/flavor/theme of a game, and also to talk about the "theme" as described here.

I'm not picky enough (or maybe not educated enough) to get upset about "mechanics" vs. "mechanisms".

---
Sidebar: I just read about the history of Tic Tac Toe. People refer to it as having been popular in Rome as "Terni Lapilli", but it seems that in TL you had only 3 pieces and had to keep moving them around. That's an entirely different game (and one that might actually be fun and challenging). Then people link the game back to Egypt, but I'm not sure if it's the TTT flavor or the TL flavor.
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  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:03 pm
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pete_darby wrote:
I hadn't seen that blogpost before... it, err, moves about a bit doesn't it?


You don't say.

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  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:38 pm
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peakhope wrote:
jerubbaal wrote:
All games are inherently an abstraction of some other process. So your definition of theme linking to "meaning" is very often going to take a analogical tone - "when I put this disc on this space, that 'means' I'm sending a person to go get me some stuff, or build something."

Hmmmm. I don't think I can agree with that bolded statement. Take Craps. How in the world can that be counted as anything other than a pure abstract? What real-life process is it abstracting?

Or Tic-Tac-Toe. I suspect that any analogies to war (or any other real-world process) have been applied after-the-fact. Just because you see knights in the X's and O's doesn't mean they are really there. Perhaps thousands of years ago it actually was invented as an abstraction of something in daily life, but that connection has surely been lost by now.
First, I probably overstated in saying all games. It's more appropriate to say "themed" games, but I would suggest most games have themes of some kind, whether they are strong or weak. Strong themes are obvious (Arkham Horror), but weak themes are often primarily a result of our attempts to understand the mechanisms of a game as analogies to other processes. Consider a game like Go, or even simpler, like War. We use military analogies to understand things like controlling territory, capturing pieces, or even just "higher card wins." Theme is not always built in, very often (or arguably all the time, if we're getting all postmodern in here) it is inserted into the game by the player through the interpretation of the "meaning" of the actions in the game.

Thus the designer's intent is really secondary here. It is primarily the experience of the player (which will obviously be influenced by the designer's choices) which really defines what the game ends up abstracting. To use your example, Tic-Tac-Toe has actually become somewhat of an "abstraction" of futility among gamers, and even in a certain movie, as the game, when played with the "correct" moves will always result in a draw.

Note: I'm not saying that we shouldn't use theme to refer to "setting," it certainly encompasses that meaning. I'm just trying to propose another way of considering it. Also note that I didn't say games have to abstract "real-life" processes, just "other." It would be easy to consider Quarriors! an abstraction of Dominion in some ways. I know my mind goes there first in interpreting many of the mechanisms of the game.
 
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  • Edited Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:45 pm
  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:47 pm
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Peter,

my 2c

English is an evolving language and that makes it powerful.

I think here we are seeing theme used in a new way. Trying to define it using different media (Movies, plays, books, etc) is spurious.

Theme here on BGG is a nebulous term that incorporates everything that is not the rules. The Art, The Setting, the inspiration for the mechanisms and perhaps why Victory points or objectives are assigned the way they are. It really is everything that isn't the rules.

You'll often hear people say certain things about a game are really evocative of its theme. And to me that is often a hallmark of a good design.

Historically I believe people in gaming began to use theme as this catch-all phrase to describe Reiner Knizia's thin use of such over his games math-ey goodness.








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  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:18 pm
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While I agree the theme is often much more interesting than the subject, I think you're getting too stuck in the one definition of the word.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theme
1. a subject of discourse, discussion, meditation, or composition; topic

So making a mental note, as you put it, that here theme==subject really should be neither surprising nor upsetting -- it's not really wrong, just different than the usual literary or broader critical usage. But since the word is used pretty much exclusively here as a synonym for subject, it'll get confusing to use it otherwise.

The idea of looking at a game's statement, which might be a less confusing word to use, is really interesting.

Space Alert's statement: Co-operation is harder under pressure.
Small World's statement: Scarcity of resources leads to direct conflict.
etc...

Might be fun to build such a list on a grander scale, and compare it like we can mechanisms and subjects.
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  • Edited Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:48 pm
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Let's start with one of the most widely played games in the world, Bridge.
 
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  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:51 pm
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angramainyu wrote:

Might be fun to build such a list on a grander scale, and compare it like we can mechanisms and subjects.


Could make a geeklist of the top 10 BGG games as a starting point. For each, propose the following:

Title: i.e Isla Dorada

Setting: i.e mythical island
Mechanic(s): i.e trick taking, auction
Game Statement (Theme): portrays the difficulties of balancing cooperation with competition.

...then watch 50 pages of debate about each unfold...
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  • Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:32 am
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garygarison wrote:
Let's start with one of the most widely played games in the world, Bridge.


Packed with themes: The most succesful partnerships are those with well understood coded communications.

Bidding; Ambition should match abilities.
 
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  • Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:10 pm
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You're drifting into fortune cookie aphorism, themes so vague as to be applicable to most any game.

How about we take a reverse engineering approach? Individual and Society is one of the most common themes in literature. Name me a game -- or propose an idea for one -- that successfully carries that theme.
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  • Edited Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:05 pm
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Individual and Society is pretty broad. Would the books of Ayn Rand fit that theme? If so, 18xx demonstrate it nicely.

Or were you thinking of something more like Dickens, which could also be 'Individual and Society'? I can't think of a good Dickensian game. In fact, I think that is exactly what London needs: more pathos, tragedy, and suffering.
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While the board game version of A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man would surely qualify, we'd probably have to settle for a eurofied The Catcher in the Rye, wouldn't we. It will come with player screens.
 
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  • Posted Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:58 am
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garygarison wrote:
Individual and Society is one of the most common themes in literature. Name me a game -- or propose an idea for one -- that successfully carries that theme.

How about The Settlers of Catan? You certainly feel like an individual within a community. You interact, whether through trading or through blocking.

Or perhaps (I can't believe I'm using a Knizia as an example of theme) Lord of the Rings. You are a tiny hobbit in the great big world. But I would say "society" is represented by your band of fellow travelers. At multiple points in the game, you will almost certainly be faced with choices about self-sacrifice for the good of the group. The same is true of other co-ops as well.

But let's not get caught up in just that one specific literary theme, when there are so many. The theme of betrayal is certainly portrayed in some games, as is the theme of secret goals and hidden agendas. Some games allow you to have god-like powers, which is a common idea in written works. Other literary themes that show up in games: the struggle to survive; temporary alliances; rags-to-riches; exploring the unknown; heroism; lust for power.
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  • Posted Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:22 am
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garygarison wrote:
You're drifting into fortune cookie aphorism, themes so vague as to be applicable to most any game.

How about we take a reverse engineering approach? Individual and Society is one of the most common themes in literature. Name me a game -- or propose an idea for one -- that successfully carries that theme.


Monopoly.
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  • Posted Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:48 am
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garygarison wrote:
While the board game version of A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man would surely qualify, we'd probably have to settle for a eurofied The Catcher in the Rye, wouldn't we. It will come with player screens.

Just what is the eurofied Catcher in the Rye? I'll try it, with or without player screens.
 
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garygarison wrote:
You're drifting into fortune cookie aphorism, themes so vague as to be applicable to most any game.

How about we take a reverse engineering approach? Individual and Society is one of the most common themes in literature. Name me a game -- or propose an idea for one -- that successfully carries that theme.


Well, i think this is a straw man argument, but there's pretty much any semi-co-op where there's the option of selling out the other players for an individual win (Red November, for example).

You're asking for themes arising from abstract games, I give them, and you say I'm descending into fortune cookie aphorisms that can be applied to almost any game: what i said was closely tied into the mechanisms of bridge!

What I'm trying to say is: we can disagree about this, but I don't think either of us is going to get the other to change their mind or be proved wrong.
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  • Posted Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:23 pm
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I'm not trying to change minds or prove others wrong. I'm really in this for the exploration of the idea.
 
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I have to defend the OP. I understand many commenters' desire to let conventional usage of "theme" off the hook. The trouble is, we don't just use "theme" on BGG the way we use it for a kid's b-day party. We use it in both ways, and we confuse the two, whether at will or unknowingly.
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The result: we usually talk past each other whenever "theme" and its importance come up. Especially in this community where well-designed mechanics/mechanisms enjoy routine conversational priority over well-designed theme, which is seen as a bonus.

If we want to talk more intelligently about games, which ultimately serves the purpose of designing and playing better games, then it helps to reflect on the vocabulary and how it might constrain us. I'm all in favor of recognizing that terms have multiple meanings, and that technical use often differs from everyday use. But some usages are less careful and less helpful than others. And sometimes we are just talking about plastic spaceships "dripping in theme," but I'd like to go beyond that sometimes. It shouldn't just be the economists, statisticians, and computer scientists who get to write intelligently about board games.

(What the hell: I would also argue that whether or not the hypothetical birthday party theme is a "pasted-on" setting or a literary aspect depends on who's throwing the party. In the over-the-top role-playing, day-long childrens' parties of my youth, absolutely the latter - thanks to my creative mom.)
 
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  • Edited Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:45 pm
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comandantedavid wrote:
I have to defend the OP. I understand many commenters' desire to let conventional usage of "theme" off the hook. The trouble is, we don't just use "theme" on BGG the way we use it for a kid's b-day party. We use it in both ways, and we confuse the two, whether at will or unknowingly.


I am totally on board with developing a language to accurately talk about games, my point was that the "theme" boat has already sailed, and to use the word "theme" exclusively to mean the literary theme of a game, would just create more confusion, in my opinion. Theme is expected to mean the "look and feel" of a game by most people. Literary theme, unfortunately, is rarely explored in games at all.

I'm not just talking about the difference between the pasted on "theme" of stone age, versus the more integrated "theme" of "Mansions of Madness" either. Both are just settings, and ambiance - look and feel.

That's not to say that literary theme cannot be found in these games. In Stone Age, for example, one literary theme found could be (as discussed above), individual vs. society: The purpose of the game is to claim the most points - this is the goal of the individual player. In doing so, he is attempting to build the most successful tribe. Part of the game revolves around keeping his tribe fed, and there is a penalty for failing to do this. However, a very workable strategy is to ignore feeding your people entirely, to selfishly gain wealth and power, to the detriment of society as a whole. This is a path that players can explore, and has some interesting moral implications.

If I were to talk about this as a theme of Stone Age in a review, I would very quickly begin to alienate readers. It would be confusing given the wider expectation of what "theme" means in a game. I want to explore these ideas, and I think it's good for games in general, but I just think using the term "theme", ultimately dilutes the message, as the meaning will become blurred in the reader's mind.

Out of curiosity, what were the literary themes found in your childhood birthday parties? I am honestly curious (I'm not being facetious here), because I have a hard time envisioning how a birthday party could have a literary theme. I have no doubt that it could be a detailed, engrossing, and immersive experience where the attendees felt like they were living in a fantasy world, but no amount of detail and immersion will equate to a theme.

Say it was a pirate birthday party, and all kids attending had to talk like pirates, and dress like pirates, and everything was intricately designed to look like a giant pirate ship, and the kids went on an adventure, where they found a pirate map, and had to solve the clues, one at a time before they finally dug up the treasure, which contained goodies for everyone.

That's a pretty immersive experience, but it doesn't really have a literary theme, other than maybe "exploration".

I suppose at the end of the adventure, they could open the chest, and find it filled with copies of the UnGame. Then the theme could be "Sometimes, no matter how hard you work, life disappoints you."

The thing is, "pirates", no matter how dressed up it is, can't be a literary theme. It's a subject, and a topic, and a setting, but doesn't deliver a message.

And that's why I think that the word "theme" would be incorrect to use when describing this nebulous idea in games. Semantically, sure it's correct, but people will use it to mean the marriage between mechanics and setting or story, or the depth of the game's conceit, and the waters will get even more muddy.

To be honest, I'm really not sure how to reconcile the dichotomy of the language. Literary Theme is a very nebulous idea as it is, that many are bound to have trouble grasping. The fact that the word "theme" has diverged from it's literary roots to describe desktop wallpaper, and birthday parties, and amusement parks probably highlights this issue. The word has morphed due to the general misunderstanding of what the non-corporeal idea of "theme" really is, and been changed through this misunderstanding to represent the concrete ideas that people can more easily grasp.

Perhaps we should just call this quality of a game, it's "Pete"
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  • Posted Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:56 pm
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So the nebulous winkety-wankety quality of meaning of a game is now to be known as "Pete" or "the Pete factor"?

I'm... honoured? No, not the right word...
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  • Posted Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:49 pm
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pete_darby wrote:
So the nebulous winkety-wankety quality of meaning of a game is now to be known as "Pete" or "the Pete factor"?

I'm... honoured? No, not the right word...


I just realised that that could be taken the wrong way. I didn't mean in in a derogatory way, I was just being silly
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  • Posted Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:54 pm
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hezkezl wrote:
pete_darby wrote:
So the nebulous winkety-wankety quality of meaning of a game is now to be known as "Pete" or "the Pete factor"?

I'm... honoured? No, not the right word...


I just realised that that could be taken the wrong way. I didn't mean in in a derogatory way, I was just being silly


I've brought it entirely upon myself. One must find immortality where one can.
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  • Posted Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:55 pm
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pete_darby wrote:
hezkezl wrote:
pete_darby wrote:
So the nebulous winkety-wankety quality of meaning of a game is now to be known as "Pete" or "the Pete factor"?

I'm... honoured? No, not the right word...


I just realised that that could be taken the wrong way. I didn't mean in in a derogatory way, I was just being silly


I've brought it entirely upon myself. One must find immortality where one can.


Sort of like "I like the cut of your jib!", but more stylish.

We can all wear monocles, smoke pipes, and rap our fashionable canes on the floor in admiration as we talk about games, stating: "Here, Here! I love the Pete of your game!"
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  • Posted Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:09 pm
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This is a lot of fuss about nothing. "Theme" has more than one definition.

As you say, the "theme" of Romeo and Juliet is forbidden love. Dictionary.com says: "a unifying or dominant idea, motif, etc., as in a work of art"

So far so good.

If I invite you to a Romeo and Juliet themed party though, are you going to show up with your secret lover, or dressed in clothing from that time period?
Dictionary.com says: "having a unifying theme: a theme restaurant decorated like a spaceship."

This second thing is what we are talking about when we say Ra has an ancient Egyptian theme. The decor, the visuals, etc. evoke that particular setting.

In summation, it's perfectly fine to use "theme" the way most BGGers use it, but it's fine the way you want to use it too.

The real question is: why bother trying to get everyone to switch to your definition when their (perfectly acceptable) definition has already gained traction around here. Words are useless if we can't agree on what they mean. We all agree around here, so why stir the pot, even if it WAS being used incorrectly?
 
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  • Posted Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:00 am
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happyjosiah wrote:
This is a lot of fuss about nothing. "Theme" has more than one definition.

As you say, the "theme" of Romeo and Juliet is forbidden love. Dictionary.com says: "a unifying or dominant idea, motif, etc., as in a work of art"

So far so good.

If I invite you to a Romeo and Juliet themed party though, are you going to show up with your secret lover, or dressed in clothing from that time period?
Dictionary.com says: "having a unifying theme: a theme restaurant decorated like a spaceship."

This second thing is what we are talking about when we say Ra has an ancient Egyptian theme. The decor, the visuals, etc. evoke that particular setting.

In summation, it's perfectly fine to use "theme" the way most BGGers use it, but it's fine the way you want to use it too.

The real question is: why bother trying to get everyone to switch to your definition when their (perfectly acceptable) definition has already gained traction around here. Words are useless if we can't agree on what they mean. We all agree around here, so why stir the pot, even if it WAS being used incorrectly?


I'm not sure his end goal is to argue about semantics, even if making his point requires arguing about semantics in the beginning. If you get what I mean?

But maybe I've just been thinking about this too much since I read this. I hated literary theory (okay, I had no clue what was going on!) Maybe I'd like it more in relation to games.
 
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  • Posted Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:44 am
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Well, I think this one's about played out: I'm still stuck with that problem that if I want to talk about the inferred meaning of a game, the perfect word for it is already being used by most folks for the subject of a game.

To make this clear: this is my problem. It drives me nuts like bad apostrophe use drive's proof reader's nut's. Despite my snark in the original post, I'm not looking to change common usage: that falls into the "teaching tortoises to dance" category.*

So y'all relax. No-one's taking your words away.

What the discussion has told me, though, is that outside of disputes about language (and I knew that was going to become a tar baby the moment the dictionaries came out), there's enough interest from people in the meaning of game play to occasionally hit notes about it in the future.

*"Haven't you any idea how long that will take?" "I know, but what's time to a tortoise?"
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  • Posted Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:42 am
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peter mumford
United States
Somerville
Massachusetts
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Pete,
I think you've been heard, and received some intelligent replies. The issue you brought up is particularly hard to pin down because it is a matter of semantics (not to denigrate semantics, as any semantic XHTML coder like myself knows), and also because you are rowing against the tide of common usage.

I for one am interested in what you have to say on the meaning of game play.
 
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  • Edited Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:31 pm
  • Posted Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:30 pm
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Noah Sheola


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You seem to be arguing that the meaning of the word 'theme' as it is understood in the context of discussing a work of literature is the only meaning the word is allowed to have. I think it's terrific that words like 'theme' and 'mechanic' have acquired meanings that are specific to our hobby. Why not embrace the jargon of our subculture instead of trying to bring it in accordance with the usage of literary critics? Is there a reason the word's use in the context of literary criticism should be privileged above all others?

I'm sure when puppeteers, or stamp-collectors, or surfers get together they use all sorts of words ways that are specific to their community. Nothing wrong with that. It's just how language works.
 
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  • Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 10:51 pm
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Peter Darby
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Welshpool
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Hi Noah;

Have you read the entire thread? Because I think I've said everything I'd say in reply to you in my last comment.
 
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 10:22 am
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