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On Gamer's Games

Wherein I Discuss Those Games Described As Gamer's Games
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Fall Buy Guide Revisited

Jesse Dean
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So early last month, just after I started this blog, I put together a list of the games that I was planning on acquiring from Essen 2011. Since then, I’ve read and reread a number of released rulebooks and I have revised my list a bit. I expect it will get revised a bit more between now and BGG.Con based on the sort of buzz that individual games receive, and that I will probably change my opinion on a number of borderline games based on how they play at BGG.Con. However, if I was going to Essen this week (and did not already have my current set of orders/pre-orders), then these are the games that I would be buying for sure or, at the very least, trying out.

Buy!
1. Vanuatu
My initial positive reaction to this one has only grown as I have more thoroughly explored the rulebook. I was briefly concerned that it was broken, but I was able to identify the flaws in my initial analysis and in the process developed a deep appreciation for the design. This is not a solitaire efficiency engine euro, but a high-contact blood sport where wrong moves will hurt and the person who is best able to force their opponents into no-win situations while at the same time properly exploiting the island’s steadily diminishing resources will be a winner. Who knew that living in the islands would be so brutal?

2. MIL (1049)
MIL (1049) is a game about relationships and how you are able to manage your resources to successfully forge relationships with other players. I initially dismissed this one as just another resource conversion game, albeit one with a nifty time element, but this focus on relationships, and the in-game implications of forging these relationships, has pushed this game from one I was indifferent to, to one that is my second most anticipated game of Essen 2011. Unfortunately, it is currently the only on my buy list that I don’t currently have a plan for acquiring, unless waiting to see if it shows up at an on-line retailer counts as a plan. Hopefully Funagain imports some!

3. Urban Sprawl
I pre-ordered this back in 2010, after being very impressed by the design of Dominant Species. The rulebook looks good, maybe not quite as good as Dominant Species, but it still looks like it will be a very good spatial game, focused on the life and growth of a city. Unfortunately, early reports have indicated that the game has a rather high degree of chaos, but I typically am skeptical of such complaints until I play the game for myself; people complained about the chaos of Dominant Species too, and I found it to be overall a minor issue.

4. Eclipse
I have greatly enjoyed Space Empires 4X so far, but its great length has limited the amount of times I have been able to get it on to the table. By adopting some more Eurogame mechanisms, Eclipse looks like it will be streamlined enough to play in a shorter time period than Space Empires while at the same time also having a greater degree of flavor thanks to the variety of possible alien races you can play. On the down side, I am not sure if the game’s combat system will be as interesting as Space Empire’s. Even if it is not, it looks like it will be a good alternative for times where we want a 4X game but do not have 4 hours for Space Empires.

5. Colonial: Europe’s Empires Overseas
Colonial still stands as perhaps my ideal colonial exploration and conquest game. The elegance of the mechanics, particularly in how a disc can be treasury, trade good, or influence depending merely on where it is in the board is particularly impressive. I have been excited enough about this one that I already wrote two strategy articles about it, and have been involved in fairly extensive discussions about how certain aspects of the game have played out. This has reduced my excitement for the game slightly, mostly because certain aspects of the game are no longer a mystery. I expect that I will quite enjoy it when I receive it.

6. Dungeon Petz
Despite my general indifference to Vlaada Chvatil’s designs, Dungeon Petz stands out as a game that could very well be exceptional. It is but one of three “putting on a show” style worker placement games that are to be released at Essen 2011, and takes several now well-worn tropes of the genre and gives them both a humor in the vein of 2009’s Dungeon Lords but also an additional level of strategic complexity and tension thanks to the need to meet multiple, competing requirements simultaneously. This combination has also made me more excited about a Vlaada Chvatil design then I have been for quite a while.


7. The Manhattan Project
While its thematic integration is quite impressive, the main thing that intrigues me about the Manhattan Project is its worker placement system. Unlike most other worker placement games which have set rounds for the placement and recovery of workers, in the Manhattan Project it is player-defined, with a player allowed to recall their workers on their turn in exchange for giving up the opportunity to place more, resulting in interesting possibilities for aggressive blocking and use of slower vs. faster placement and recovery as a weapon against your opponents. The rest of the game beyond this mechanic looks pretty solid too, with plenty of little twists and ideas.

8. Singapore
On its surface, Singapore is just another resource conversion game, but this surface view is almost certainly deceiving. The heart of my attraction to Singapore’s system is how it welds this resource conversion structure onto a strong spatial base, with both the creation of the board’s structure, and thus how you are able to take advantage of the resource generation/conversion buildings, being driven by the players themselves. The risks inherent in performing certain types of illegal activity add to the overall appeal, and I am fairly optimistic that this one will end up being worth opening.

9. Ora et Labora
Ora eta Labora looks to be a return to the Agricola/Le Havre style game that really brought Uwe Rosenberg to the attention of the board gaming world. Considering the great esteem I hold both for both of those games I consider this a positive development overall. Unfortunately, I am concerned that Ora et Labora will become a little stale after a while thanks to the lack of any random factors in the game or its set-up and its relatively low amount of direct player interaction. Still, I am excited enough about both its similarities to Rosenberg’s previous hits and its unique little touches that I am definitely going to pick it up.


Try!
10. Upon A Salty Ocean
Upon A Salty Ocean is a tight economic game where players may perform four separate actions, with each choice resulting in an increase in cost for further attempts to take said action. It has all of the features of a potentially great economic game, but I have enough concern about interplay variability that I admit I am a bit hesitant about this one. The potential for this one is strong enough though that I definitely want to try it because, even if it is a failure it will be an interesting failure.

11. Trajan
The mancala mechanic of this one looks both fun and difficult. Mastering it to be able to do what you want when you want it looks like it should be challenging, meaning that the learning curve in gaining mastery of the game should be a bit longer than average, increasing its replay value. Unfortunately, I’ve had enough of a negative reaction to Feld’s precious designs that I am going to try this one before I buy it. I think it is highly likely that I will buy it, but I need to experience it first to be sure.

12. Space Bastards
Space Bastards has a really interesting central mechanic, where players are taking actions based on the relationships between varieties of alien species in order to gain planet-based majorities during scoring rounds. It is not quite like anything I’ve seen before, and I am really looking forward to checking it out. The reason I am unwilling to buy it without trying it is because I am concerned that the rest of the game is not quite strong enough to allow for the central mechanic to flourish. There doesn’t seem to be quite enough turns to make it so the game has a good arc, and I fear that this will be Antics! all over again; a game with a great central mechanic that ultimately isn’t quite good enough because the rest of the game isn’t quite good enough.

13. Pret-a-Porter
The second of three “Lets Put On A Show” worker placement games being released at Essen 2011, Pret-a-Porter looks to be the most economically cutthroat of the three, with two kinds of debt, and a large need to properly manage a large collection of properties and employees in order to sell fashion designs. I am hesitant about this one for two reasons. The first is that I am not sure I need more than one “Lets Put On A Show” worker placement games, and Dungeon Petz looks to be the best of the three. The second is that this will end up being just another somewhat tired economic snowball game. Despite these concerns, it does look interesting enough to try, so it may end up sneaking into my collection after all.

14. Tournay
Troyes was my #3 game for 2010 and, like the rest of the Top 4, is one that I still play regularly. After its success, I am pretty much guaranteed to try the sequel game from these designers, so that alone is enough to get me to try Tournay. Unfortunately, the rules make this game look a bit too light for my taste. I am not sure the decisions are going to be complex enough to make this a game that is worth owning.

16. Belfort
Belfort has some interesting things going on for a worker placement game, both in the method of placing workers and how victory is determined, but I suspect it is not quite unique enough to make its way into my collection. It is interesting enough to investigate though, and I suspect I will try it out at BGG.Con, if not sooner (at Mike’s Mini Meet at the end of the month).
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Subscribe sub options Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:22 pm
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Kevin Ice
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Belforts finding some fans here in Gainesville. You won't have a hard time getting people to play it at the Meet.
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  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:11 pm
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Jesse Dean
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Yeah. The real question is if I will choose to play it over an Urban Sprawl + Colonial: Europe's Empires Overseas marathon.
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  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:16 pm
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Kevin Ice
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Lol, John told me about that. I'm definitely in for the first of each, though I may prefer to follow up Urban Sprawl with Dominant Species.
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  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:31 pm
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Jesse Dean
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Ah, well I play Dominant Species often enough (and with different enough house rules ) that I would rather stick to new stuff.
 
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  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:33 pm
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Weird Fox
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Jesse, I think you'll appreciate this based on the "blogger spam thread" you started earlier this week. So I login to BGG just now, see that my Subscription icon is red, click it, and see a blog in there I'm not subscribed to. What! Twice in one week! This is an outrage!

{click on it}

Oh, it actually mentions the game, and...it's the guy who brought this problem up in the first place. Oh, OK, we're cool.

Anyway, Ora et Labora. I imagine you and I are fairly similar about this. I really like Agricola, Le Havre less so but still think favorably about it (and I bought it for some reason, firing Notre Dame in the process), but I'll still probably pick O&L up without ever playing it. I'm not immediately concerned about staleness, but I somewhat arbitrarily define "getting my money's worth out of a Big Box game" to be around 5 plays a year. The problem is that I have enough Big Box games now where, coupled with a fixed (or decreasing) amount of annual gaming time means I'd have to fire other games to make O&L meet that 5 plays a year. Not to mention Urban Sprawl actually looks pretty good, too...

Anyway, I believe this is what's known as a "First World Problem."

J
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  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:54 pm
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Jesse Dean
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Indeed!

I am okay with blog spam as long as they actually discuss the game in hand. I think I've me that criteria here.

See, I play often enough, and keep my collection sleek enough, that I want to be able to get significantly more plays out of a game in our for it to be "up to snuff." Some games I am more willing to be lenient about if they are "difficult" (i.e. they are exceptionally long or difficult to learn). I expect to be able to get 20-30 games out of them in the first year and 7-10 each year after that. If it can't meet that then I start question its presence in my collection. (For that reason, Le Havre is on the borderline right now. It may be gone some time in 2012). So Ora et Labora needs to be able to both sustain a large number of initial plays and a steady number of additional plays after that or its just not going to be good enough for me to continue owning it.
 
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  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:17 pm
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Jonathan
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Thanks Jesse! This is like a Cliff's Notes of what to watch out for!
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  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:45 pm
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Tim Seitz
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If only because we have some large areas of overlap in tastes, here are my opinions on the games you mentioned. I have reordered the games in my order of interest, but kept your numbers.

1 - 3. Urban Sprawl - My first GMT P500! I have not done any further analysis or playing of this game because the decision to buy was made long ago. I generally analyze/proxy games I am on the fence about.

2 - 7. The Manhattan Project - missed the Kickstarter, but I pre-ordered through Minion Games.

3 - 9. Ora et Labora - Autobuy. (I haven't even bothered to read the rules, so it will feel like Christmas, or maybe spring depending on when this shows up) Big fan of the Harvest games. I bought Merkator, but it's still sitting in shrink, but I feel like this is a return to form.

4 - 5. Colonial: Europe’s Empires Overseas - Autobuy if it gets US distribution. Sadly, $110 is too much for one game right now.

5 - 2. MIL (1049) - I'll buy it if it gets US distribution, otherwise, I am sure my buddy will get it.

6 - 6. Dungeon Petz - Autobuy Z-man edition. Kids and I all love Dungeon Lords (although we have not played it in a while), so this is a surefire hit.

7 - 1. Vanuatu - I am buying purely based on your recommendation; so if this sucks, I am holding you personally responsible! :-)
Seriously, I agree with some of your assessments, but have not analyzed it in depth via the rules. I decided I would let this one be a surprise (meaning I did not proxy).

8 - 16. Belfort - Buying; It'll be between Space Bastards or this for a new area majority slot.


Try!

9 - 4. Eclipse - looking to play first; I love 4x, but I think it's ultimately better done on computers

10 - 12. Space Bastards - This looks cool. But how many area majority games do I need? It'll be between this and Belfort.

11 - 10. Upon A Salty Ocean - looks cools; since I am not going to BGGCon, I won't likely get to play this unless I make it. Not yet convinced it'll be worth it.

12 - 13. Pret-a-Porter - I wanna like it since I have Neuroshima Hex and Stronghold, but frankly those games don't hit the table. I kinda want to get it since my wife watches all those "runway" shows, but who am I kidding?!

14 - 14. Tournay - I was quite taken with Troyes and proxied that until my copy arrived. I've no interest in Tournay until someone proves to me it's not CMC:Caylus as Tournay:Troyes. My lack of interest extends to not even reading the rules for it.

15 - 8. Singapore - Pass. I like King of Siam, but not enough to be interested. Willing to revisit if I hear positive things.

16 - 11. Trajan - Pass. Oddly, I love Notre Dame and ItYotD, but this one does not interest me in the least. JASE. I'll be honest and admit it might be because my daughter whips me at Mancala.

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  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:52 pm
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Jesse Dean
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I am sympathetic to your opinion of Eclipse. I feel similarly about civilization games.
 
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  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:00 pm
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Radioactive Man
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Having played both Dominant Species and Urban Sprawl, I can tell you for sure that there is much more randomness in Urban Sprawl by the very design of the game. Any game that has a limited number of cards that come out that then get taken before a player's turn comes back around to them suffers from this. I've only played Urban Sprawl with 4 (which I've done twice) and both times there were wild swings in score with absolutely no recourse for players in many cases. This is vastly different from Dominant Species where although the Dominance Cards are incredibly powerful, there's a full round of action selection and moves before those cards take effect after they've been revealed, allowing players to respond to the events and either grab them for themselves, or guard against them. I'm interested in giving Urban Sprawl a try with 2 as I think this will mitigate that randomness quite a bit, but with 4, the games is too much randomness for my taste, especially for the length that it plays.

All I can say about Eclipse is that it's a fantastic game with lots of interesting decisions and a play time of about 30 minutes/player. We played a 4 player game in 2 1/2 hours with rules explanation and it being the first play for all players. Really an excellent game. I do agree with combat being rather simplistic though.
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  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:12 pm
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Jennifer Schlickbernd
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We didn't see wild swings in the score for our first and only game of Urban Sprawl so far. We got a runaway leader instead shake but that's playing blind. Next time we won't be playing so blind. Yes cards can be taken before your turn, but someone is going to pay a large price to do it, which appeared to balance that issue nicely. Union Boss throws everything out of whack though, so I'm waiting to see how that works out.

From my reading of the designer diary, the VP's for Eclipse are randomly determined. While I understand it's something like 1-4, this is a huge turn off for me in a long game. It's fine for a short game like Oregon, but to have the winner basically randomly determined just won't fly. I'm happy to be disabused of this, however, so please let me know if I've misunderstood something.
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  • Posted Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:34 pm
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jeremy waffles
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This is awesome, thanks!
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  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:17 am
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Paul Lister
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Jesse, brief note from Essen on games. First impression of Urban Sprawl is there is more randomness than DS. Love the game and I think it's going to take a lot of games to get to know the likely effects on your game of the events - but worth the effort

Only 300 copies of Mil 1049 at dhow so will be hard to get

English copies of Ora et Labora had misprint so not available for some time

Going to try Mil 1949 and Vanuatu this weekend so will let you know first impressions
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  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:46 am
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Jesse Dean
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Is that 300 copies period or just 300 copies at Essen?
 
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  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:18 am
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Weird Fox
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Sorp222 wrote:

English copies of Ora et Labora had misprint so not available for some time


Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo....................
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  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:47 pm
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Jennifer Schlickbernd
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My friend Chief Egghead got me a copy of MIL(1049). I can't wait to play it next week!
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  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:18 pm
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Jesse Dean
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:jealous:
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  • Edited Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:49 pm
  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:48 pm
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Kurt R
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doubtofbuddha wrote:
:jealous:

+1. That's my #1 target, and I can't even import the darn thing.
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  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:37 pm
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Jesse Dean
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enzo622 wrote:
doubtofbuddha wrote:
:jealous:

+1. That's my #1 target, and I can't even import the darn thing.


I think the only answer is for us to invade Europe and seize their supply of MIL (1049)! It will be ours.
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  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:44 pm
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Tim Seitz
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Glen Allen
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Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him. 2 Sam 14:14
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doubtofbuddha wrote:
enzo622 wrote:
doubtofbuddha wrote:
:jealous:

+1. That's my #1 target, and I can't even import the darn thing.


I think the only answer is for us to invade Europe and seize their supply of MIL (1049)! It will be ours.

While you're planning the invasion, get some LEGOs and start playing!

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  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:09 pm
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Tim Seitz
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Glen Allen
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Played The Manhattan Project tonight 2-player with my boy. Despite that not being much of a test, I was slightly disappointed. He enjoyed the game quite a bit, but it played out much differently than I imagined. The best part about it was we watched 30 minutes of a-bomb newsreels on youtube to get ready. It's kind of funny that an 8 year old boy isn't afraid of and in awe of atomic bombs.

My basic problem, and I can foresee complaints of this now, is that with more players, this can have considerable downtime. The beauty of worker placement tends to be the speedy microturns, but in TMP, it's often best "run your nation" (e.g., place workers), retrieve, run your nation, etc. So, you end up making all these decisions on your turn.
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  • Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:46 am
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Seth Jaffee
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out4blood wrote:
Played The Manhattan Project tonight 2-player with my boy. Despite that not being much of a test, I was slightly disappointed. He enjoyed the game quite a bit, but it played out much differently than I imagined. The best part about it was we watched 30 minutes of a-bomb newsreels on youtube to get ready. It's kind of funny that an 8 year old boy isn't afraid of and in awe of atomic bombs.

My basic problem, and I can foresee complaints of this now, is that with more players, this can have considerable downtime. The beauty of worker placement tends to be the speedy microturns, but in TMP, it's often best "run your nation" (e.g., place workers), retrieve, run your nation, etc. So, you end up making all these decisions on your turn.

Interesting. I thought if you retrieved your guys, that's all you got to do that turn - and therefore that turn would be very quick, and otherwise you just place 1 guy... I didn't think there would be any more downtime than other worker placement games (and I disagree that they are generally "speedy" microturns - most people I know are not "speedy" no matter how "micro" their turn is!)

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  • Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011 6:28 am
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Rich P
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doubtofbuddha wrote:
Who knew that living in the islands would be so brutal?


Vanuatu had cannibals until the 1960s...

Interesting that you gave Singapore a second look based on the spatial elements of the game. They were what interested me when I read the rulebook, but the tiles themselves and the rote resource conversion they implied really put me off the game. I'll be watching this space!
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  • Edited Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:14 am
  • Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:12 am
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sedjtroll wrote:

Interesting. I thought if you retrieved your guys, that's all you got to do that turn - and therefore that turn would be very quick, and otherwise you just place 1 guy... I didn't think there would be any more downtime than other worker placement games (and I disagree that they are generally "speedy" microturns - most people I know are not "speedy" no matter how "micro" their turn is!)



You are correct, taking back your guys does take a turn.

Also: You have not gamed with me yet.
 
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  • Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:55 pm
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sedjtroll wrote:
Interesting. I thought if you retrieved your guys, that's all you got to do that turn - and therefore that turn would be very quick, and otherwise you just place 1 guy...

Gah! Yeah, that better be the case. I'm really down on long downtime lately, so I don't want to hear that here, thank you!

Seriously, Tim, can you elaborate? It's not like you're placing all your guys at once, just retrieving. So where's the fear of long turns coming from?

 
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  • Edited Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:13 pm
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sedjtroll wrote:
out4blood wrote:
Played The Manhattan Project tonight 2-player with my boy. Despite that not being much of a test, I was slightly disappointed. He enjoyed the game quite a bit, but it played out much differently than I imagined. The best part about it was we watched 30 minutes of a-bomb newsreels on youtube to get ready. It's kind of funny that an 8 year old boy isn't afraid of and in awe of atomic bombs.

My basic problem, and I can foresee complaints of this now, is that with more players, this can have considerable downtime. The beauty of worker placement tends to be the speedy microturns, but in TMP, it's often best "run your nation" (e.g., place workers), retrieve, run your nation, etc. So, you end up making all these decisions on your turn.

Interesting. I thought if you retrieved your guys, that's all you got to do that turn - and therefore that turn would be very quick, and otherwise you just place 1 guy... I didn't think there would be any more downtime than other worker placement games (and I disagree that they are generally "speedy" microturns - most people I know are not "speedy" no matter how "micro" their turn is!)


Retrieving workers is speedy, placing 15+ workers in one go is not.

Edit: you've got the rules wrong, Seth. On a worker placement turn, you:

1) may place one worker on the main board, and then
2) may place as many workers on your personal buildings as you like
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  • Edited Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:44 pm
  • Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:38 pm
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enzo622 wrote:
sedjtroll wrote:
Interesting. I thought if you retrieved your guys, that's all you got to do that turn - and therefore that turn would be very quick, and otherwise you just place 1 guy...

Gah! Yeah, that better be the case. I'm really down on long downtime lately, so I don't want to hear that here, thank you!

Seriously, Tim, can you elaborate? It's not like you're placing all your guys at once, just retrieving. So where's the fear of long turns coming from?

You are placing them all at once. Once you have several buildings, an optimal move will most often be place one worker on the main board, and then place all the rest of your workers on your buildings.

The next turn you retrieve.

You can have your full complement of 12 workers, but will often get contractors when you place workers, giving you more workers to place.

Edit: This will be subject to the importance of fighters. I can see air strikes being vigorously fought over. (We didn't do much of this in our first game.)
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  • Edited Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:42 pm
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jschlickbernd wrote:
From my reading of the designer diary, the VP's for Eclipse are randomly determined. While I understand it's something like 1-4, this is a huge turn off for me in a long game. It's fine for a short game like Oregon, but to have the winner basically randomly determined just won't fly. I'm happy to be disabused of this, however, so please let me know if I've misunderstood something.


Well, I'll try to disabuse you, then! Neither the victory points nor the winner in Eclipse are by any means randomly determined.

What you're most likely referring to is the victory points gained from combat, ie. the Reputation Tiles. They work like this: After the combat, you draw tiles from a bag. Depending on how many enemy ships you destroyed, you draw from 1 to 5 tiles, and you keep just one (obviously the highest) of them, and return the rest to the bag. The values on the tiles range from 1 to 4, the initial average being very close to 2. Depending on the species you play, you have from 3 to 5 slots on your player board where you place the tiles. If the slots are all filled, you may replace a tile with a higher one. As the game progresses, the best tiles are taken from the bag, and the distribution gets progressively worse, so this also gives you some incentive on fighting early.

So, a lucky draw does indeed help you some, and vice versa, but the more you fight, the better you will score on that front. A good score often gets around 10-15 points from the Reputation tiles, while the total is somewhere at the 40 point mark -- and there are multiple things you get points from, so depending on your strategy, you can score very well even if you're not fighting that much.

Does this help any?
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  • Posted Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:48 am
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Thank you for the clarification. I still don't like the mechanic though. You are saying that a quarter of the points are randomly determined, which to me is a lot. I will wait and see, and inquire about this issue as reviews come in.
 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:59 pm
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jschlickbernd wrote:
Thank you for the clarification. I still don't like the mechanic though. You are saying that a quarter of the points are randomly determined, which to me is a lot. I will wait and see, and inquire about this issue as reviews come in.

It's not really a quarter of the points. There are up to 4 spots (depending on the alien race) for prestige points from battle. The number of tiles you get to draw depends on the number of ships you battle and the difficulty of beating those ships. Theoretically, one person could draw only 4 1-prestige tiles and another could draw 4 4-prestige tiles, but the likelihood of that is minuscule considering that each battle you get to draw up to 5 tiles and keep the highest one, and that if you battle more times than that, you can replace your lowest value prestige tile with a new one that you drew, if it's higher.

On top of that, using ambassadors takes up spaces for prestige tiles from battle. Ambassadors are quite advantageous as they allow you to remove an additional population cube off your mat, increasing the amount of resources you collect, so it's likely that there most players will have 1 or 2 ambassadors, reducing the number of battle prestige points in play. I've now played this game twice, and on average in both games, players held 2-3 prestige tiles from battles with a maximal swing of 1-3 points based on the draw of the tiles. The average scores were in the 35 point range, so that's more like a 3-9% dependence on luck. If you're looking for a no luck game, this is definitely not for you since battles are determined by rolling dice. There's far more prestige at stake by luck of dice rolling in winning battles and taking over sectors than there is drawing prestige points from the bag.
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  • Posted Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:34 pm
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I played 1049 yesterday and really enjoyed it. One big caveat for Jesse though is that it really is not going to work well with open resources. It's just not going to be very amenable to that change. You'll change the game in a fundamental way, and not for the better.

I actually really enjoyed the game anyway, but I thought I'd share my two cents.
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  • Posted Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:01 pm
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jschlickbernd wrote:
I played 1049 yesterday and really enjoyed it. One big caveat for Jesse though is that it really is not going to work well with open resources. It's just not going to be very amenable to that change. You'll change the game in a fundamental way, and not for the better.


How and why?
 
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  • Posted Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:03 pm
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I'm on my IPad so will be more specific when I can get to a real computer.
 
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  • Posted Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:04 pm
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I want to say that I really enjoyed the game. I’m going to assume you’ve read the rules if you are reading this.

On the hiding of the cubes. The auctions in the game are significant. If you know exactly how many cubes the other people have, it’s very easy to game them and I suspect that you would end up with a runaway leader problem. If you insist on writing down who has what cubes or otherwise memorizing who has what cubes, then I wouldn’t recommend this game. The game relies on people having a good guess of what people have but not full knowledge.

And that’s it. This is still a heck of a lot easier to write in Word than it was on an IPad. I don’t mind providing additional clarification on what happened in our session but I really don’t intend to get involved in a discussion on whether or not hiding the resources is the right thing to do for this game, at least until someone else who has played the game wants to comment.
 
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  • Posted Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:19 pm
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jschlickbernd wrote:
The auctions in the game are significant. If you know exactly how many cubes the other people have, it’s very easy to game them and I suspect that you would end up with a runaway leader problem. If you insist on writing down who has what cubes or otherwise memorizing who has what cubes, then I wouldn’t recommend this game. The game relies on people having a good guess of what people have but not full knowledge.


While I have not played, my impression from the rules was that gaming the auctions in that way was the (interesting) point of the auctions.
 
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  • Posted Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:50 pm
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I could see that. I just don't think it's going to lead to a positive gaming experience, at least not for me.
 
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  • Posted Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:16 pm
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clearclaw wrote:
jschlickbernd wrote:
The auctions in the game are significant. If you know exactly how many cubes the other people have, it’s very easy to game them and I suspect that you would end up with a runaway leader problem. If you insist on writing down who has what cubes or otherwise memorizing who has what cubes, then I wouldn’t recommend this game. The game relies on people having a good guess of what people have but not full knowledge.


While I have not played, my impression from the rules was that gaming the auctions in that way was the (interesting) point of the auctions.


I just wrote the following in another thread and I'll relate what I wrote back to the issue of hiding cubes or not hiding them.

Quote:
In a four player game, it's probably a good bet that someone will go to the market planning to get a castle, but in our three player game, many times none of the knights went for a castle. This has a lot to do with your assessment of whether or not you would win the castle auction, so it's not as clear of a decision as whether or not to trade. If you don't go to the market, and simply hope that someone will choose to put up an auction for a castle, then you could be burned if there's no castle auction and then someone simply attacks you. It's one of the great parts of the game, the decision of whether or not to risk not going to the market and then getting burned, or going, and still getting burned (because you don't win the castle auction) or going and successfully getting your castle.


If you know what cubes everyone has, this decision is basically not necessary, and I would say that not having the decision to make lessens the game play. If you know for sure that you can win the castle auction, then you go, win the auction and move on. If you know for sure that you can't win the the auction, then you either don't go to the market or you just go to trade. There could be a decision factor if either you don't want to spend all your cubes for a castle OR if you think your opponent doesn't want to spend all of her cubes, but castles are pretty significant in the game, so it's probably safe to assume players will go all out to get them.

So this is why I don't think having knowledge of the exact number of cubes will help the auctions. Now I'll be happy to be proven wrong of course .
 
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  • Posted Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:34 pm
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jschlickbernd wrote:
If you know what cubes everyone has, this decision is basically not necessary...


No, it means that the actual decision on the castle came earlier when you were setting up to get cubes. I agree that there's little decision at the point of moving to the castle as that's (mostly) a simple game-state evaluation -- ergo the decision is earlier.
 
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  • Edited Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:42 pm
  • Posted Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:40 pm
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Except you are still removing a decision. Cubes are good. There's no question about that so deciding to get cubes is not a meaningful decision. And since the base auction requirement are resource cubes anyway, you can't really set up to get cubes for the castle auction. So again, if you already know if you can win or lose the castle auction, the game becomes less interesting.
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:04 am
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jschlickbernd wrote:
Except you are still removing a decision. Cubes are good.


Right, except that surely now the choices around cubes are now more significant? Yes, cubes are good, players know as they set up for and collect their cubes that they are either sacrificing their castle potential for that round or they are committed to buying a castle. Additionally every player knows every other player's posture during this setup and execution process, and can respond and start positioning for the next round. No?

Quote:
There's no question about that so deciding to get cubes is not a meaningful decision. And since the base auction requirement are resource cubes anyway, you can't really set up to get cubes for the castle auction.


Why not? You know what the other players are getting, you know their postures, you know your posture etc. Surely that's the centre of the dance?
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:10 am
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Tim Seitz
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jschlickbernd wrote:
Except you are still removing a decision. Cubes are good. There's no question about that so deciding to get cubes is not a meaningful decision. And since the base auction requirement are resource cubes anyway, you can't really set up to get cubes for the castle auction. So again, if you already know if you can win or lose the castle auction, the game becomes less interesting.

While I am firmly in the use-player-screens camp, I am not convinced you can "already know" you're going to win or lose a castle auction, even if cubes were open.

Number of cubes has priority, and food is the most common resource. How much food is worth giving up to win a castle auction? Food that could otherwise be spent attacking, defending, or supporting a vassal in war. Going to market is arguably best when the war sphere is heavily occupied and there is a lot of uncertainty about player intentions.

As you say, there's no real decisions to be made in gathering cubes; you gather as many as you can afford to grab before time runs out. I'd argue the real decision still occurs during the auction (even if cubes are open), because downstream usage of resources for the castle remains highly uncertain.
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  • Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 5:54 pm
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Tim, as I said previously:

Quote:
If you know what cubes everyone has, this decision is basically not necessary, and I would say that not having the decision to make lessens the game play. If you know for sure that you can win the castle auction, then you go, win the auction and move on. If you know for sure that you can't win the the auction, then you either don't go to the market or you just go to trade. There could be a decision factor if either you don't want to spend all your cubes for a castle OR if you think your opponent doesn't want to spend all of her cubes, but castles are pretty significant in the game, so it's probably safe to assume players will go all out to get them.


I've only played once, I hope to get a play in today in fact. But there's not much more valuable than a castle, given the limitations of the cubes you can spend on the castle auction (no red).
 
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  • Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 6:34 pm
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