The Hotness
Games|People|Company
Dominion: Dark Ages
Fantastiqa
Mage Knight: Board Game
Total War
Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)
Eclipse
Mice and Mystics
Dungeon Fighter
Collapsible D: The Final Minutes of the Titanic
Lords of Waterdeep
Agricola: All Creatures Big and Small
Libertalia
Android: Netrunner
Virgin Queen
The Lord of the Rings: Nazgul
A Game of Thrones: The Board Game (Second Edition)
Dominion
Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures Game
Infiltration
The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game
Among the Stars
Twilight Struggle
The Swarm
Agricola
1989: Dawn of Freedom
Goa
7 Wonders
Glory to Rome
Arkham Horror
Village
Ora et Labora
Battles of Westeros: House Baratheon Army Expansion
Through the Ages: A Story of Civilization
Thunder Road
Trajan
Zombicide
The Castles of Burgundy
7 Wonders: Cities
Ace of Spies
War of the Ring
Skyline
Space Alert
Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective
City of Horror
Race for the Galaxy
Dungeon Command: Sting of Lolth
Twilight Imperium (third edition)
Kingdom Builder
Le Havre
Battlestar Galactica

On Gamer's Games

Wherein I Discuss Those Games Described As Gamer's Games
Recommend
29 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Thumb up

A Few Acres of Snow, Martin Wallace, and Me

Jesse Dean
United States
Orlando
Florida
Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious predator on Earth!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I have played a lot of Martin Wallace games. In fact, with 15 different played titles, I have played more Martin Wallace games than those by any other designer. In earlier, more innocent times, I described Martin Wallace as my favorite designer. I loved, and still love, Age of Steam, Brass was riding high as one of my favorite games, and I found Princes of the Renaissance and Struggle of Empires to both be very interesting designs. Unfortunately, this initial enthusiasm was not something that could be sustained. I think the beginning of the end was probably After the Flood. This was the first game, and in fact probably the first thing, that I ordered internationally, and it was the first Martin Wallace that I ended up mostly disappointed by. It wasn’t a bad game, per se, but it did not pull me in like some of his other designs. Further plays of his extended catalog also disappointed me, until I reached the game that ended up being a major turning point in my opinion of Martin Wallace as a designer: Automobile.

I was very excited about Automobile. It was getting a lot of positive initial buzz, the theme seemed to be rather unique, and I still put enough stock in Martin Wallace’s name on the box that it alone was enough to boost my enthusiasm and order the limited edition from Treefrog. And during the first couple of plays I enjoyed it. Unfortunately, soon after that I became disenchanted with the low number of meaningful decisions for a game of its length and the game’s relatively low level of tension. After this I became a bit more discerning in my purchase of Martin Wallace games, but I still found myself disappointed again and again. London ended up being the final straw. I went ahead and pre-ordered it because it looked like it might be a good game, and I am a pretty big fan of complex card games, but I decided that if I did not like it then from that point forward Martin Wallace would be strictly on my “Try Before Buy” list. I was lucky enough to be able to play a good friend’s copy twice and found it to be rather mediocre; I sold my copy before even opening it.


•This is a very tentative rating. I don’t have strong feelings about the game yet, and need to play it again to solidify things.

When I first began to hear about A Few Acres of Snow, I became interested despite my previous disappointments. The combination of deck-building and a war game seemed interesting, and initial reports indicated that this one had a lot of potential. My first play of the game was tense and fun and I started to wonder if this was perhaps going to be the game that would cause me to look seriously at Martin Wallace again. However, even at this point in time we noted that the British had a definite military advantage, and I won the game by sieging my way to Quebec.

Due to this experience, I was not very surprised by the identification of a dominant, broken strategy for A Few Acres of Snow. The description of it fit with what I had learned during and after my first game, and I was already developing the basics of the strategy in my head. So it did not surprise me, but it did greatly disappoint me. Yes, I had grown to find that Martin Wallace’s designs were no longer meeting my particular needs, but I still respected him as one of the few professional designers in the industry. The fact that one of his games was released to the public with this big of a flaw indicates that there is something wrong with his design process, his development process, or both. At this point, I have moved from Martin Wallace being “Try Before Buy” to “Wait A Year To Make Sure The Game Is Not Broken Then Try Before I Buy”, though that will likely result in me just not looking at his games anymore. This is a shame, because A Few Acres of Snow is evidence that Martin Wallace is capable of making games that have the potential to be interesting to me. He just hasn’t showed me evidence that these games are good.
Twitter Facebook
55 Comments
Subscribe sub options Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:30 pm
Post Comment
Jesse Dean
United States
Orlando
Florida
Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious predator on Earth!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Please note, I am not interested in arguments about A Few Acres of Snow not being broken as it current stands. You are probably not going to convince me. If you think you have a foolproof strategy, please bring it up on the A Few Acres of Snow forum.

In the event that an effective fix is provided for a A Few Acres of Snow I will reconsider my rating and my decision not to buy the game, but that won't change my weariness over future Martin Wallace designs after this fiasco.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:33 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Chris Darden
United States
Lake Saint Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
With an average rating of 5.66 for Martin Wallace games, I'm not sure you're a Martin Wallace fan.

Which is cool, I have issues with some of his games also. I think Snow will be fixed at some point, at least I'm hoping it will be.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:40 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jesse Dean
United States
Orlando
Florida
Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious predator on Earth!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yeah, I would not describe myself as a Martin Wallace fan. I was when I first started exploring his games, but now I simply categorize him as the one I find to be most disappointing.

Actually, now that I think about it I can't really claim to be a fan of any of the hot designers, except for perhaps Mac Gerdts, but I need to play more of his designs to be able to say for sure...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:43 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
John Brier
United States
Aventura
Florida
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
As you know I heartily agree with your general assessment of Wallace. I do want to suggest, however, that Princes of the Renaissance and Struggle of Empires are definitely worth revisiting. Especially PotR has a lot of elements you love in games (although finding the right group locally to exploit the game's potential might be too much of a pipe dream to merit shelling out the major bucks this game costs).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:46 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Huzonfirst
United States
Manassas
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
San Antonio, OKC, Miami, and Boston..who will win out?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Don't understand the issues with Automobile. It just doesn't match my experience with the game, as I consider it to be one of my favorites. You don't need a ton of decisions for a game to be great (just look at Princes of Florence) as long as they're meaningful. But, different strokes and all that.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:51 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jesse Dean
United States
Orlando
Florida
Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious predator on Earth!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Oh, I think they are both solid. Otherwise I would not rate them 7s. I owned PoTR at one point. I just realized that I had so many other games in that time frame that I would rather play that I could not justify keeping such a valuable game, so I sold it. I would be perfectly fine playing it again if someone wanted to. (The same goes for Struggle of Empires too).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:52 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jesse Dean
United States
Orlando
Florida
Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious predator on Earth!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Larry Levy wrote:
Don't understand the issues with Automobile. It just doesn't match my experience with the game, as I consider it to be one of my favorites. You don't need a ton of decisions for a game to be great (just look at Princes of Florence) as long as they're meaningful. But, different strokes and all that.


It was your preview/review that initially got me excited about it back in the day. I am not a big fan of The Princes of Florence either.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:56 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote

Eugene
Oregon
msg tools
Avatar
mb
What? No Liberté? One of Wallace's best. Byzantium is also top shelf Wallace.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:58 pm
  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:57 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jimmy Okolica
United States
Washington Township
Ohio
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I suspect I mostly agree with you assessment of AFAoS although my approach currently is just to avoid the broken strategy until a fix is found (or if I'm playing with someone who wants to use it, insert one of the tweaks suggested). That said, I'm surprised by your rating of London as a 5. I've only played it a few times (and all of those in one day) but I found it a very challenging, complex card game. Am I missing something?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:59 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jesse Dean
United States
Orlando
Florida
Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious predator on Earth!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
garygarison wrote:
What? No Liberté? One of Wallace's best. Byzantium is also top shelf Wallace.


Haven't played either and do not know anyone whos owns either them. The Liberte reprint did not come out until after I had already decided I was mostly done with Wallace and I have no intention of buying it in the off chance I like it now.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:59 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jesse Dean
United States
Orlando
Florida
Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious predator on Earth!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Butterfly0038 wrote:
I suspect I mostly agree with you assessment of AFAoS although my approach currently is just to avoid the broken strategy until a fix is found (or if I'm playing with someone who wants to use it, insert one of the tweaks suggested). That said, I'm surprised by your rating of London as a 5. I've only played it a few times (and all of those in one day) but I found it a very challenging, complex card game. Am I missing something?


In a universe of great card games that includes Race For the Galaxy, Innovation, Glory to Rome, Yomi and quasi-card games like Summoner Wars, Puzzle Strike, and various CDGs I found it to be pretty tame. It competes most directly with RFTG in my eyes (they are both economic engine style games), but I find the decisions in RFTG to be a lot more interesting than those found in London. It doesn't help that London is even more solitare than RFTG either. I could easily wander away from the table during the downtime in a game of London and come back without missing much. This isn't true of any of the other card games I consider my favorites.
1 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:04 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Tim Seitz
United States
Glen Allen
VA
Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him. 2 Sam 14:14
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I come at A few Acres of Snow quite differently. I am mostly indifferent to Wallace designs, although I like Age of Steam and Brass, also, most of the others I have not played. But I never considered myself a "fan" of Martin Wallace, even though i have rated most of his game pretty highly. Mostly, because I just have not felt the need to play them (perhaps that by itself is an indication of ratings inflation on my part).

A Few Acres of Snow 9 (->4) 16 (holding until fixed?
Tempus 9 2
Age of Steam 8.5 7
Perikles 8 1
RRT 8 3
London 7.5 1
Steam 7.5 1
Rise of Empires 6.5 1


So, I was pretty blown away by A Few Acres of Snow, primarily because I did not have any high expectations coming in.

During my buddy's rules explanation, with me sitting at the French side, I came to the conclusion that I would MUCH rather play as the British, since I had a very clear idea of how best to proceed with the game. Alas, in the first game I did nothing close to what I had envisioned, and instead just developed my way to a victory, never once even attacking.

I borrowed the game and eagerly taught it to friends and family, but it wasn't until I sat down to play with an experienced opponent where I was able to discuss my thoughts on optimal strategy.

Later in The Thread, and online with VASSAL with Andrew, we were both able to firm up our initial conclusions. British have a dominant strategy, and that strategy wins. However, I see these as two separate issues, one of which is probably fixable.

Most deck-building games use some form of randomness to create strategic variety: a new set of kingdom cards (Dominion), a random draft (Ascension), variable starting conditions (Eminent Domain). A Few Acres of Snow does not really have this. I imagine that the strategic positions on the map were intended to provide this variety, but in the current reality it does not. By turn 3 or 4, British can be down to the exact same hand every game, so every game will play out the same. Even if the particular strategy doesn't win all the time, a strategy will emerge which wins more frequently than others, and then that will be the way to go. The game, as is, just fails to provide enough variety to keep it engaging.

I eagerly await Martin's fix for this, because I think game has a lot of potential. Use of the map to to require maintenance of certain location cards is pretty innovative.


9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:06 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
United States
Norwood
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
doubtofbuddha wrote:
Please note, I am not interested in arguments about A Few Acres of Snow not being broken as it current stands. You are probably not going to convince me. If you think you have a foolproof strategy, please bring it up on the A Few Acres of Snow forum.

In the event that an effective fix is provided for a A Few Acres of Snow I will reconsider my rating and my decision not to buy the game, but that won't change my weariness over future Martin Wallace designs after this fiasco.



Whew! good to hear! I was really worried....
2 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:25 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jesse Dean
United States
Orlando
Florida
Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious predator on Earth!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
markgravitygood wrote:

Whew! good to hear! I was really worried....


About what?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:28 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Dave Eisen
United States
Silicon Valley
California
mbmbmbmb
I agree that Wallace has some hits and some misses. I had Age of Steam, Brass, and Struggle of Empires in my top 20 last time I checked. All deep, rich, highly interactive, and a style of game I enjoy. That right there is a full career for a top designer. So I cut him some slack.

But other designs were less good. In particular, Automobile disappointed because I didn't like the randomness of demand each round. I don't care if that's realistic and did not buy the argument that you know more about it than it appears on first blush. Steel Driver didn't work for me either: very interesting game with a way-too-important-and-impossible-to-control endgame phase.

Perikles was just awful.

And his last two significant games: London and A Few Acres of Snow. Both intriguing. Both impressed a lot on first play. Both seem likely to be fundamentally unsuccessful because of insufficient development/playtesting around dominant strategies.

I do want to sound a positive note for Last Train to Wensleydale, which had not gotten much attention in this discussion. It too was interesting and hard to play well, if not at the same level as his big 3 designs. Not sure what else fits into this category. Maybe Princes of the Renaissance.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:21 pm
  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:13 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote

Eugene
Oregon
msg tools
Avatar
mb
We shouldn't overlook the Early Railways. Age of Steam with player cooperation.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:22 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Paulo Santoro
Brazil
São Paulo
São Paulo
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
So you don't like games I like? Never mind, I hate Dominant Species.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:54 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jason Reid
United States
New York
New York
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
garygarison wrote:
What? No Liberté? One of Wallace's best. Byzantium is also top shelf Wallace.


Given our posting history, Gary, it may come as no surprise to you that I was just about to post the same thing, except perhaps with the 2 games in the reverse order
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:03 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jason Reid
United States
New York
New York
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
doubtofbuddha wrote:
garygarison wrote:
What? No Liberté? One of Wallace's best. Byzantium is also top shelf Wallace.


Haven't played either and do not know anyone whos owns either them. The Liberte reprint did not come out until after I had already decided I was mostly done with Wallace and I have no intention of buying it in the off chance I like it now.


My copy of Byzantium is coming with me to BGG.CON (pimped out with smaller wooden discs to replace the too-big ones that shipped with the game).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:05 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Andrew P
United States
San Francisco
California
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
Due to this experience, I was not very by the identification of a dominant, broken strategy for A Few Acres of Snow.


I think you a word.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:16 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Ken Dilloo
United States

Washington
flag msg tools
Always bet on Chorizo!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
fateswanderer wrote:
Quote:
Due to this experience, I was not very by the identification of a dominant, broken strategy for A Few Acres of Snow.


I think you a word.


Is that a dominant, broken sentence?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:22 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Leslie Taylor
United States

Florida
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I could respond by explaining the exact strategy that lets the French beat the thin deck... OR...



I cannot fix the game for you if you refuse to play it more than once. I once lost in chess = chess is broken.
4 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:26 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Ken Dilloo
United States

Washington
flag msg tools
Always bet on Chorizo!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I bet Martin Wallace never thought he would have to design and play the games for you. I could show you another strategy to beat it, but I won't either.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:40 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jesse Dean
United States
Orlando
Florida
Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious predator on Earth!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
fateswanderer wrote:
Quote:
Due to this experience, I was not very by the identification of a dominant, broken strategy for A Few Acres of Snow.


I think you a word.


That is correct!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:38 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jesse Dean
United States
Orlando
Florida
Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious predator on Earth!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
bigloo33 wrote:

Is that a dominant, broken sentence?


It is a broken sentence, but it is not dominant, no.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:40 am
  • Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:38 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jesse Dean
United States
Orlando
Florida
Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious predator on Earth!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
QuintMorrison wrote:
I could respond by explaining the exact strategy that lets the French beat the thin deck... OR...

I cannot fix the game for you if you refuse to play it more than once. I once lost in chess = chess is broken.


You really did not read what I wrote did you? I am not going to continue to play the game after it has been pretty conclusively proven to have a balance problem. Once that is resolved I will consider playing it again. Until then I have plenty of other very good not broken games to play. I don't feel any obligation or desire to do otherwise.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:49 am
  • Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:39 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Seth Jaffee
United States
Tucson
Arizona
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
doubtofbuddha wrote:
QuintMorrison wrote:
I could respond by explaining the exact strategy that lets the French beat the thin deck... OR...

I cannot fix the game for you if you refuse to play it more than once. I once lost in chess = chess is broken.


You really did not read what I wrote did you? I am not going to continue to play the game after it has been pretty conclusively proven to have a balance problem. Once that is resolved I will consider playing it again. Until then I have plenty of other very good not broken games to play. I don't feel any obligation or desire to do otherwise.

I can't say that I blame you. I have been interested in checking out Mr. Wallace's foray into the "Deckbuilding 2.0" genre, but after all the hullabaloo I have to say my interest in the game has dwindled. It was already a long 2p game, which is not generally my type of thing.

When I get a chance I will try it out, even if just to see how Wallace approached the design, but it's not as high on my priority list as it could have been.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:03 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jesse Dean
United States
Orlando
Florida
Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious predator on Earth!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
bigloo33 wrote:
I bet Martin Wallace never thought he would have to design and play the games for you. I could show you another strategy to beat it, but I won't either.


He is designing the games for the people who purchase and play them. I am not one who regularly purchases and plays his games anymore because it is clear he is no longer designing them for me. So yes, you are correct, he is no longer designing games that meet my tastes. I believe I noted that above when I stated his designs no longer met my needs.

As for play it for me? Why should I bother playing a game for which some pretty conclusive evidence has been put forth that the game, as it exists, is broken. If he wants people who find a game being broken to be a concern to buy and play his game then he will resolve it. If not, then his lack of resolution will be noted and reacted to appropriately.

Also, saying "Na na na! I know something you don't know!" doesn't really accomplish much. For one, I don't really care and for two because as I noted in comment #1) I am not debating the game's brokenness or lack thereof here.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:05 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Seth Jaffee
United States
Tucson
Arizona
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
doubtofbuddha wrote:
Also, saying "Na na na! I know something you don't know!" doesn't really accomplish much. For one, I don't really care and for two because as I noted in comment #1) I am not debating the game's brokenness or lack thereof here.

To get back on topic - can you tell me anything about the use of Deckbuilding in this game? Specifically in comparison to Dominion and other 'typical' deck building games, and of course I'd like to also know how the mechanism compares with my use of it in Eminent Domain.

Edit: In case it's not obvious, I'm not looking for a "better" or "worse" answer here.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:10 am
  • Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:09 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jesse Dean
United States
Orlando
Florida
Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious predator on Earth!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sedjtroll wrote:

I can't say that I blame you. I have been interested in checking out Mr. Wallace's foray into the "Deckbuilding 2.0" genre, but after all the hullabaloo I have to say my interest in the game has dwindled. It was already a long 2p game, which is not generally my type of thing.

When I get a chance I will try it out, even if just to see how Wallace approached the design, but it's not as high on my priority list as it could have been.


Wallace did do something that is very innovative and fresh with the design and in normal circumstances I would be very interested in exploring it in great detail. Its too bad that it does not work as intended, but I suspect that even if it is not fixable in its current format that he (or some other designer) will likely translate it into something pretty impressive in its next iteration. For that alone he deserves some kudos.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:10 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jesse Dean
United States
Orlando
Florida
Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious predator on Earth!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jasonwocky wrote:


My copy of Byzantium is coming with me to BGG.CON (pimped out with smaller wooden discs to replace the too-big ones that shipped with the game).


If we have time I might give it a shot. I guess it will just depend on how the week flows.

I am getting very excited about the convention.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:11 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jesse Dean
United States
Orlando
Florida
Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious predator on Earth!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sedjtroll wrote:

To get back on topic - can you tell me anything about the use of Deckbuilding in this game? Specifically in comparison to Dominion and other 'typical' deck building games, and of course I'd like to also know how the mechanism compares with my use of it in Eminent Domain.

Edit: In case it's not obvious, I'm not looking for a "better" or "worse" answer here.


Sure. Each side starts with a prebuilt deck made largely of the cards associated with the particular locations they have already settled. Each side has its own set of cards they can purchase that are not available to the other players as well a shared group that either side can purchase and add to their deck.

The French are slightly better at raiding due to their available cards while the English are much better at military. They also have slightly different ways they go about getting money, and a few other slight differences in their particular set of powers.

You get additional actions by taking actions to purchase them or by settling locations. Money accumulates, allowing you to build up money to buy some of the more expensive cards and you have to deal with deck bloat from cards that don't have much in the way of useful symbols or connections on them.

So it is closer to Dominion than Eminent Domain is, but because of all the particularly unique twists and turns, I would not call it a Dominion Game like a lot of the other deck builders out there.

Does that cover it?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:18 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Seth Jaffee
United States
Tucson
Arizona
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
doubtofbuddha wrote:
sedjtroll wrote:

To get back on topic - can you tell me anything about the use of Deckbuilding in this game? Specifically in comparison to Dominion and other 'typical' deck building games, and of course I'd like to also know how the mechanism compares with my use of it in Eminent Domain.

Edit: In case it's not obvious, I'm not looking for a "better" or "worse" answer here.


Sure. Each side starts with a prebuilt deck made largely of the cards associated with the particular locations they have already settled. Each side has its own set of cards they can purchase that are not available to the other players as well a shared group that either side can purchase and add to their deck.

The French are slightly better at raiding due to their available cards while the English are much better at military. They also have slightly different ways they go about getting money, and a few other slight differences in their particular set of powers.

You get additional actions by taking actions to purchase them or by settling locations. Money accumulates, allowing you to build up money to buy some of the more expensive cards and you have to deal with deck bloat from cards that don't have much in the way of useful symbols or connections on them.

So it is closer to Dominion than Eminent Domain is, but because of all the particularly unique twists and turns, I would not call it a Dominion Game like a lot of the other deck builders out there.

Does that cover it?

Thanks!

You mentioned 'deck bloat.' I kinda wonder if, when playing, the fact that adding certain cards to your deck could be considered a down side to taking a location - that could be kinda cool. You want control over a specific location, but doing so may water down your deck... It doesn't necessarily sound like that's the case here though.

Are there cards or actions which remove cards from the game, like the Chapel in Dominion or the Research action in EmDo?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:34 am
  • Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:33 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jesse Dean
United States
Orlando
Florida
Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious predator on Earth!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
That is the case here. Some cards are only useful for helping you get access to locations. Some are just not useful. Additionally if you lose control of a location, then the card can no longer be used and essentially becomes deadweight in your deck.

There are two ways to remove cards from your deck. One is the Governor, which adds the cards back to the supplies you got them from, and the other is the reserve, which allows you to store a card for later use (later can be never). It takes an action to use the Governor or to throw cards in the reserve though, so you have to be careful about tempo.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:38 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Seth Jaffee
United States
Tucson
Arizona
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
doubtofbuddha wrote:
That is the case here. Some cards are only useful for helping you get access to locations. Some are just not useful. Additionally if you lose control of a location, then the card can no longer be used and essentially becomes deadweight in your deck.

Interesting. Do you find that the dead weight or deck bloat is just an annoying consequence of making your moves on the map? Or is it ever the case that you decide not to take a location (or at least not early) specifically to preserve your deck's efficiency or quality?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:44 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jesse Dean
United States
Orlando
Florida
Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious predator on Earth!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I haven't played enough to be able to answer your question definitively, and honestly at this point the game is so warped by the British conquest strategy that it might not be relevant, but I doubt it would effect my decision to take a location, but it would absolutely effect my decision as to when to take it. Also, since deck thinning is so valuable in general, I imagine that is mostly what would happen to these locations if I thought it was strategically important to take them early.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:47 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Ben
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Despite my misgivings about London, and my general apathy toward First Train, I still consider myself a Martin Wallace fan. He produces a certain atmosphere in his games that I both enjoy and find nowhere else. I was blown away by the much-overlooked God's Playground, and I have pre-ordered Discworld despite the fact that it appears to be miles outside of my general weight preference.

A Few Acres of Snow didn't grab my attention during the rules read, however, and I am content with my decision to not acquire it.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:21 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Tim Seitz
United States
Glen Allen
VA
Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him. 2 Sam 14:14
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sedjtroll wrote:
doubtofbuddha wrote:
That is the case here. Some cards are only useful for helping you get access to locations. Some are just not useful. Additionally if you lose control of a location, then the card can no longer be used and essentially becomes deadweight in your deck.

Interesting. Do you find that the dead weight or deck bloat is just an annoying consequence of making your moves on the map? Or is it ever the case that you decide not to take a location (or at least not early) specifically to preserve your deck's efficiency or quality?

Seth:

The difference between most deck-building games and AFAoS is that the "VP" cards are both useful and necessary, even in the early stages, so there are strategies that revolve around collecting them and "upgrading" them, even in the early game.

Let's talk in terms of Dominion. No one, apart from a new player, would think that starting out buying Estates would be a viable strategy to winning at Dominion. In fact, some of the better strategies in that game revolve around trashing those early estates. But in AFAoS, those early VP cards (location cards) are important because you need them to earn money and attack, but you also need them to be able to get to other VP locations. So you can't ditch them all AND you might want to grab some of them right at the start. The broken strategy in AFAoS kicks off with "buying an estate" by settling Halifax.

Where the game fails to deliver is that the British can win by reserving certain location cards (effectively trashing) and just earning money, sieging locations, and taking Quebec, or at the very least, wiping out French presence in Nova Scotia. This bypasses the whole connection to location cards and the feel of slogging your way through a fat deck, because military that goes on to a siege is temporarily out of the deck and placed on the siege. As long as British are sieging, they will have a very lean deck. None of the other British strategies even come close to this level of efficiency, and thus it becomes the dominant strategy. The fact that it also wins, makes it broken.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:39 am
  • Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:38 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Steve Rogers
United States
Hoboken
New Jersey
flag msg tools
They're Young, They're in Love... They eat LARD
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Speaking as someone who is a Wallace fan; I can relate my personal preference.

I find his games engaging and challenging. He has consistently shown over the past decade that he can present a wide array of themes with mechanics (mechanisms?) that tie quite well to the subject matter and although he tweaks and recyles ideas, IMO he hasn't "gone to the well" too many times with the exact same engine.

For my experience, two recurring factors in Wallce designs are High Conflict and Consequences; even for good decsions during play. Your turn, how ever brief or limited in scope means something, even if you've doomed yourself in an auction in Age of Steam or dug in deep with with loans in Brass, you can feel the consequences of your decsions and you can't avoid pressing your oppenents for advantage or initiative if you intend to win.

I never felt that tension or stress in my own plays of many well-regarded games that espouse interesting decsions but are acknowledged as solo-play point-scoring races.

As for the completeness of any game design, regardless of the designer, look to how many games are discussed in terms of what fixes them; there are hundreds of popular games that seem to need expansions and many that are ruined by them. For my part I like that most of Wallace's designs are self contained and how ever flawed they may appear, they stand on their own, like all art, unfinished and abandoned.
5 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:07 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Leslie Taylor
United States

Florida
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
doubtofbuddha wrote:
QuintMorrison wrote:
I could respond by explaining the exact strategy that lets the French beat the thin deck... OR...

I cannot fix the game for you if you refuse to play it more than once. I once lost in chess = chess is broken.


You really did not read what I wrote did you? I am not going to continue to play the game after it has been pretty conclusively proven to have a balance problem. Once that is resolved I will consider playing it again. Until then I have plenty of other very good not broken games to play. I don't feel any obligation or desire to do otherwise.


No, I did. It's just that dominant strategy has not won once in my group. I have played with an opponent who read the threads and tried the strategy. IF Native Americans are in the game, at all, the thin deck does not work. Now, I have figured out how to make the thin deck work. Play solo with no French actions taken = thin deck win.

The conclusive dominant strategy is dependent on the French player not existing or not trying.

So, I challenge you. We meet in Louisberg, and duel: you play British, I play French. I will expand to the west and stock up on natives. You will attempt to capture Louisberg, but I will have it fortified by then. After I win, you will post online about how the French are broken and poor Mister Wallace made a broken game.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:27 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
B. Hebert
United States
Davis
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Please note, if you post an article with the main point being that you don't like a game because it is broken, and then make clear your unwillingness to hear arguments about whether it is broken, then I'm not sure of the value of the article.

That's my opinion and I am not interested in hearing contrary views about it. You probably won't convince me. If you think you have a great counter argument please go say it somewhere else.



doubtofbuddha wrote:
Please note, I am not interested in arguments about A Few Acres of Snow not being broken as it current stands. You are probably not going to convince me. If you think you have a foolproof strategy, please bring it up on the A Few Acres of Snow forum.

In the event that an effective fix is provided for a A Few Acres of Snow I will reconsider my rating and my decision not to buy the game, but that won't change my weariness over future Martin Wallace designs after this fiasco.
5 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:40 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jesse Dean
United States
Orlando
Florida
Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious predator on Earth!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
My article is not about whether or not the game is broken. It is my reaction to his games in general and how a few key, recent games, with A Few Acres of Snow being the latest example, have changed my perceptions of his designs. So yes, I don't consider discussions of the gaming being broken here to be productive. They are productive on the A Few Acres of Snow forums, and if you wish to contest that fact I suggest you go there.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:47 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
B. Hebert
United States
Davis
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Sorry for the snark. Your post struck me as being premised on a point you weren't willing to debate, which seemed like an odd way to encourage discussion. Like posting an article to a cinephile blog where you say "I used to like Kubrick but grew to dislike him. The last straw was eyes wide shut which was deeply flawed. Btw, I'm not interested in discussing whether that film was flawed."

3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:03 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Ken Dilloo
United States

Washington
flag msg tools
Always bet on Chorizo!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The purpose of this particular post is to say that the sky is blue. I know this because the earth is flat. It is flat, like really, really flat. I know this because some guy said so, and his 2 buddies agreed. Did I test this myself? Of course not!!

In conclusion, I would like to say that the sky is blue.

PS: I won't be debating the flatness of the Earth.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:21 pm
  • Posted Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:16 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Martin G
United Kingdom
London
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Excellent article Jesse. I feel much the same about Martin Wallace. I really want to like his games, because it feels like he's coming up with more unique ideas than most other designers, and does a great job of integrating them with some interesting themes too. But more often than not, the games end up being flawed in some way.

I loved my first few plays of Automobile, but then realised that the effects of the random demand tiles are just too chunky and the hidden information is too limited to mitigate that. I was excited about London, as a Londoner and lover of complex card combo games, but it was just *dull* and devoid of interaction. I was really impressed by A Few Acres, but worried that the lack of inter-game variability would lead to a dominant strategy, and so it came to pass. The only one I love unreservedly is Brass, where somehow the balance is magically just right.
3 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:26 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
B. Hebert
United States
Davis
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Let me try to find something more constructive to say.

I took an initial a pass on many of the earlier Wallace designs because the weight and length didn't fit the profile of my gaming friends very well. So I started off being cool toward him.

It was only when I had a chance to try his more recent middle weight games that I started taking more of an interest. Tinners was interesting, but didn't grab me. London I really liked quite a bit, playing mostly 2p. When I heard about AFAOS I was really excited (and made my first and only direct order to the UK). I've played it six times now, with no sign yet of a broken strategy. I've intentionally averted my eyes from the forum thread because I don't want to see a broken strategy. I'm still enjoying the hell out of the game and don't want it ruined. (I've won once with a British military to Quebec strategy and the whole time saw things France could have done to derail me -- it didn't at all feel like a sure thing.)

I suspect that my satisfaction with Wallace (I'm keenly looking forwards to Discworld) is that I'm not a hard core gamer's game fan (and so maybe not the right audience for this blog). I'm much more of a middleweight. From that point of view, I'm finding myself more of a Wallace fan as time goes by.
3 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:47 pm
  • Posted Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:45 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jesse Dean
United States
Orlando
Florida
Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious predator on Earth!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yeah, he has definitely had a drift in weight and style of his games as time has passed, which might explain my increasing dissatisfaction with him. Was London the game that finally caused a bit of a turnaround in your perception of his games or was it something that occurred earlier?

It is against my nature to ignore things like broken strategies. I spent most of the '00s playing competitive collectible miniatures games (and a bit of collectible card games), so overall game balance is something that is important me. I am generally hesitant to immediately accept that something is unbalanced or broken or whatever, simply because it frequently ends up that individuals are willingly to jump to conclusions on such things too easily. For example, I played Urban Sprawl for the first (and second time) last night and in the first game we ended with a run-away leader situation. I was able to build two buildings that allowed me to control some key scoring opportunities, and it was tough for the others to catch up after that. There was some discussion of the game having a run-away leader problem in our group, but I was unconvinced simply because the game is pretty complicated strategically, and I don't think you can make that sort of judgment after a single play. The second game, where the others were more aware of the value and risks of certain buildings was much closer. However, the amount of testing that has been done for the "broken strategy" in A Few Acres of Snow as well as the discussion around it has convinced me that there is a problem with it. I am hopeful that Wallace is able to find a solution that resolves the problem one way or another, as I would really like to be able to play and enjoy the game again. It seemed to be a really innovative design and one with a lot of potential.

I am glad that you are more satisfied with Wallace, and I honestly suspect that his shift in game design preferences and styles is going to be good for him financially. As long as he continues to do so any disappointed fans (such as myself) that he loses in the process will probably worth the large number of new fans (such as you) he gains. I will just play his older games I still like and the large number of other new games that are coming out that intrigue me.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:04 pm
  • Posted Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:06 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jesse Dean
United States
Orlando
Florida
Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious predator on Earth!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
qwertymartin wrote:

I loved my first few plays of Automobile, but then realised that the effects of the random demand tiles are just too chunky and the hidden information is too limited to mitigate that. I was excited about London, as a Londoner and lover of complex card combo games, but it was just *dull* and devoid of interaction. I was really impressed by A Few Acres, but worried that the lack of inter-game variability would lead to a dominant strategy, and so it came to pass. The only one I love unreservedly is Brass, where somehow the balance is magically just right.


What is your opinion of Age of Steam? I see you played it once and rated it a 7, but your comment is not too detailed.

I like Brass, and think it is a good game, but I burnt myself out on playing it on-line and couldn't bring myself to play it for a while after that (and sold my copy). I would be interested in playing it again now, but my experienced with Brass on-line was enough that I don't play board games on-line anymore. It too frequently has a negative effect on my enjoyment of the game.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:09 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Martin G
United Kingdom
London
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
doubtofbuddha wrote:
What is your opinion of Age of Steam? I see you played it once and rated it a 7, but your comment is not too detailed.


My comment is not too detailed because I've only played it once, and I don't rate higher than 7 on a first play. I suspect it's a great game but, as my comment does say, I'm not sure its unforgiving nature is what I really desire. On that one play, one player eliminated himself before half-way through, and my brain hurt from having to calculate how many shares I needed to issue given various possible contingencies during each turn. I love the system, and really enjoy my plays of Railroad Tycoon, despite acknowledging that it certainly has some weaknesses.

Quote:
I like Brass, and think it is a good game, but I burnt myself out on playing it on-line and couldn't bring myself to play it for a while after that (and sold my copy). I would be interested in playing it again now, but my experienced with Brass on-line was enough that I don't play board games on-line anymore. It too frequently has a negative effect on my enjoyment of the game.


How so? Most of my plays of Brass have been online and they have enhanced my appreciation of the game. I like being able to really think through each move, aided by the easy trackability of the cards left in the deck/other players' hands.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:33 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jesse Dean
United States
Orlando
Florida
Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious predator on Earth!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I tended to play seven games simultaneously, due to impatience at other people having not taken their turns. This resulted in both too much Brass, and me diving into a haze of confusion as I eventually had difficulty telling all the games apart and then made mistakes. It also resulted in me advancing in skill much faster than my compatriots, resulting in plays with locals being not very satisfying.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:02 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Martin G
United Kingdom
London
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yeah, I see how that would put you off. I play strictly one at a time, wait my turn, and try not to think about it too much in between times
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:04 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote

Eugene
Oregon
msg tools
Avatar
mb
doubtofbuddha wrote:
I tended to play seven games simultaneously, due to impatience at other people having not taken their turns.

Oh god no. Patience, young buddha. Two games at a time, max.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:23 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Michael Reneer
United States
Sanford
Florida
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
doubtofbuddha wrote:
garygarison wrote:
What? No Liberté? One of Wallace's best. Byzantium is also top shelf Wallace.


Haven't played either and do not know anyone whos owns either them. The Liberte reprint did not come out until after I had already decided I was mostly done with Wallace and I have no intention of buying it in the off chance I like it now.


Yes you do
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:07 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Burster of Bubbles, Destroyer of Dreams.
United States
Sunnyvale
California
Just imagine the red offboard up here. I'll create it Real Soon Now...
badge
Yes, I know a proper 18XX tile should have a tile number.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I've played twice, before the broken British strategy became common knowledge, and both time I found deck-thinning via Governor (and to a lesser degree, deck-stacking via the reserve) to be absolutely crucial to getting a useful hand on every turn.

My second game I had a crushing British victory via getting all of my TOWNS down, and still had enough military to spit in the face of the French every time they dared to besiege or raid me.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:16 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Julien Chavanton
Canada

Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I agree,

I beleive that MW can inspire other games by sharing the innovative mechanics he invent.

But I will always wait before purchasing any of his game.

I really liked "Princes of Renaissance" but after playing ~10 games I started too feel that some mechanics where not completed or clever in term of strategy.

This game should be revised and reprinted ! I may buy it again with a few rules modifications.

------------------------------------------------
What I did not like about Princes Of Renaissance
------------------------------------------------
When we play, the game always start with players purchasing all the troop tiles one after the other in the first few rounds:
Cavalry, Artilley, etc. or Field Fortifications, Pike, etc.
It apear to me that having the strongest attack / defence factor is very a important factor to achieve victory. (the best way to be more convincing when making deal with others)

Several missprints may have obstructed my game experience as well.



1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Nov 1, 2011 7:36 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.