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Reducing Contract Card Chaos In Urban Sprawl

Jesse Dean
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In my review of Urban Sprawl, I noted that one of the items that I found to be most problematic, the high impact Metropolis deck cards, is one of the items that are most easily corrected for simply by not including the contract cards that are most likely to cause massive swings in victory points. The cards I find most problematic are:

University (4 permits, Education 5, 2 VP payout, Each player gains 4 VP for each RES and CIV they own)
Marina (4 permits, Ignore zoning restrictions, For each 1-lot RES they control, players must pay you $4 or 4 VP)
Port (4 permits, Transportation 7, 4 VP payout, Each player gains 4 VP and $4 for each IND they control)
Temple (2 permits), 1 VP payout, For each RES they control, players must pay you $4 or 4 VP)

The simplest solution to dealing with these cards is to simply not include them in the game. This is easily resolved by simply making it so the Metropolis deck has its normal array of 15 cards on top, a random 7 below that, and then 11 more after that. Doing it this way has the added bonus of making it so you are more likely to see any given card and thus there will be a somewhat lower level of variance in the game. On the downside you are removing three VP payout cards from the game, decreasing the value of the 4 VP, 1 VP, and 2 VP rows even further.

An equally viable alternative, particularly if you have a group that is open to house rules, is to simply halve the effects of these cards. This still makes them valuable, but doesn’t make them as game warping as they are now. $2 per building (for the Marina and Temple) is much easier to deal with and plan around then $4 is and it makes it so it is a much more reasonable choice to not take them and either not build on your turn or discard some permit cards to have an additional financial cushion. The University and Port are still strong, maybe a little bit too strong, but aren’t game winners by themselves. This also has the benefit of not reducing the number of VP payout cards in the deck, as noted above, keeping the original distribution intact.

If your biggest problem is the swinginess of the Metropolis deck cards, then one of these two solutions will probably resolve the problem for you. There are a few other buildings (The Historical Monument and the Nuclear Plant, for example) that can have very big payouts but they require either very specific circumstances or lots of forward planning to carry out, and thus are much less problematic. Of course, removing these cards does not resolve the other problematic bits of chaos from the game, but it does lessen it somewhat, which may be enough for some.
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Subscribe sub options Wed Nov 2, 2011 3:25 pm
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Lacombe
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Not knowing anything else about the game, these don't sound to be any more overpowered / prone to huge VP swings as the cards in Dominant Species. Assuming you enjoyed Dominant Species, I'm confused why you're so annoyed by the swingy cards here.
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  • Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 3:27 pm
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Jesse Dean
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Yeah, the situation in Urban Sprawl is completely different from Dominant Species. Without understanding how the games differ it is difficult to understand why these cards so much more problematic than the ones in Dominant Species.
 
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  • Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 3:30 pm
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Curt Carpenter
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In US events come out unpredictably, tend to be skewed specifically for/against certin player positions, take effect imediately when revealed, and only a subset will ever been seen in a single game. There is only a tiny fraction of the ability DS offers to both plan for and react to the events seen in the game.
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  • Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 3:33 pm
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Lacombe
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So it's like a giant Vegas Showdown of sorts? [Or at least would incite the same types of complaints / reactions to the random events?]
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  • Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 3:35 pm
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Curt Carpenter
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Yeah, along those lines. But the control in Vegas Showdown (a family favorite) seems like Chess compared to US.
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  • Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 3:36 pm
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Wow, I hadn't thought of US in that way, but I think it's accurate. That's really interesting. A game like Vegas Showdown as fairly little chaos and is a much lighter title. US is pretty deep but the chaos is big. I like both a whole lot.
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  • Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 3:49 pm
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Curt Carpenter
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That is to say (continuing my thought above), in VS there is a lot of stuff that isn't a surprise. But in US virtually the whole game is one big surprise. Imagine if in VS every turn you had different stuff to bid on. No standard always-available buildings, and nothing surviving from one round to the next. And crazy effects for building each and every building. Now you're getting closer.
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  • Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 4:00 pm
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Paul Smith
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NateStraight wrote:
Not knowing anything else about the game, these don't sound to be any more overpowered / prone to huge VP swings as the cards in Dominant Species. Assuming you enjoyed Dominant Species, I'm confused why you're so annoyed by the swingy cards here.


For me, it's because in Urban Sprawl the card will only show up in some of your games. So is this going to be the game where IND buildings get the most payouts, or is this going to be the game where CIV buildings get the most payouts?
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  • Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 7:02 pm
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Radioactive Man
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There are two big differences between the powerful cards in DS and US. In DS, all cards are played every game. So you can always plan for certain effects to take place at some point in the game. In US, 1/3 to 1/2 of each deck (Town, City, and Metropolis) are not used. Therefore, even if you try a long term strategy to protect against a particular card coming out, there's a good chance the card will never come.

Secondly, in DS, the power cards come out and then there is a full round of AP placement and resolution prior to the cards being played. You see the cards that are available that round, can see how they might help or hurt you, and then spend an entire round adjusting to that before the card effects take place. In US, because the card effect takes place as the card is picked up and played on a particular player's turn, when these power cards come up, they are immediately grabbed. There's no chance for you to react to a card if it flips up after your turn. You take your turn, and you watch as a card randomly flips up that can hurt you badly, and then you watch some more as the next person immediately grabs that card and plays it without giving you any chance to respond to that card. In the two games I've played, we saw huge swings in late game play with the very cards Jesse mentioned with no recourse on the part of the person it's affecting.

That's not to say this a bad game. In fact, I still like the game, but the description of US as chaotic is an accurate one.
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  • Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 7:04 pm
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mojo shivers
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My group and I just figured out that the Metropolis deck is where people who have RES buildings get punished severely. Usually, we try to build one or two valuable purple buildings for the police chief bonus, but not much more than that.

Also, we noticed it's good to have the Mayor in the town deck, bad to have it in the City deck (with all the catastrophes being blamed on the Mayor), and very good to have it in the Metropolis deck (with all the free buildings and free benefits).
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  • Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 8:50 pm
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Steve Carey
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SaiSaysPlayGo wrote:
For me, it's because in Urban Sprawl the card will only show up in some of your games. So is this going to be the game where IND buildings get the most payouts, or is this going to be the game where CIV buildings get the most payouts?


I'd suggest to try and diversify your holdings then - even a few low value buildings can offer a decent hedge investment.

Some players may want to put all their eggs in one basket (I presume they control the 'Bakery'), especially when pursuing a certain political office - not the best strategy, IMHO.
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  • Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 9:04 pm
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mojo shivers wrote:

Also, we noticed it's good to have the Mayor in the town deck, bad to have it in the City deck (with all the catastrophes being blamed on the Mayor),


In my first game I took over the mayor right as we switched to the City, much to my dismay...
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  • Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 4:26 am
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Scott Burns

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Radioactive Man wrote:
There are two big differences between the powerful cards in DS and US. In DS, all cards are played every game. So you can always plan for certain effects to take place at some point in the game. In US, 1/3 to 1/2 of each deck (Town, City, and Metropolis) are not used. Therefore, even if you try a long term strategy to protect against a particular card coming out, there's a good chance the card will never come.


Not quite. The Town deck is partially available throughout the whole game, either through the 5 or 6 AP spots at the top. It's something to think about as you learn the game: during the Metropolis phase, it's possible for one player to attempt to trigger the end of the game by buying the Metropolis cards to get to Olympic Games, and the other players to delay it by buying Town or City cards while they churn through the contract deck instead, trying to trigger a key election.
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  • Posted Mon Nov 7, 2011 7:21 pm
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Curt Carpenter
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Ignoring the advice of Thumper's parents...

This is another thing that bugged me about US. Once the City deck becomes active, the Town deck is still technically active, but who's going to pay 5-6AP for 1 contract?!? I don't think so. I think it would have been much more interesting to have a way to slow down the rate of Town cards coming out without grinding them to a halt. The whole merging of multiple decks into a single track is such an interesting idea in theory, that just doesn't develop in practice. I would go so far as to argue that the rules complexity isn't even worth what you get out of it. The game could have been much simpler and lost virtually nothing if you simply had a single row of contracts, and you switch the source decks (without clearing the contract queue) when you get the appropriate event. And then at least you force the next player to pay more if they want the shiny new contracts before the bubble down. Maybe I'll try that next time.
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  • Posted Mon Nov 7, 2011 7:32 pm
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Chadwik
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curtc wrote:
who's going to pay 5-6AP for 1 contract?!?

The player who gains more from doing just that than by doing something else. Sometimes you just *can't* build a City or Metropolis building so you take what you can and move on. It won't happen often (intentionally so), nonetheless the option remains should the need arise.

If you personally don't like paying too much for Town cards, don't. You have that option, too.
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  • Edited Mon Nov 7, 2011 7:47 pm
  • Posted Mon Nov 7, 2011 7:46 pm
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Radioactive Man
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SpaceLordOO wrote:
The Town deck is partially available throughout the whole game, either through the 5 or 6 AP spots at the top. It's something to think about as you learn the game: during the Metropolis phase, it's possible for one player to attempt to trigger the end of the game by buying the Metropolis cards to get to Olympic Games, and the other players to delay it by buying Town or City cards while they churn through the contract deck instead, trying to trigger a key election.

The Town and City decks are available this way. But the AP differential between what those cost and what the Metropolis cards cost makes it nearly impossible to delay the game significantly through this tactic since a person going through the Metropolis deck would take 3 cards (in the 1, 2, and 3 AP spots) for every one taken in the Town or City deck. The fact that only 2 cards are seen for either of these decks as opposed to 5 for the Metropolis deck once the Metropolis deck is opened means there is significantly more chance in trying to get through the Town or City decks once the Metropolis deck is opened. Given these two factors, it would seem there is only mild to moderate incentive to take Town and City cards, thereby making the initial statement true. While technically, you may eventually churn through the remaining Town and City deck one card at a time, in reality there is still 1/3 to 1/2 of those decks that will never get flipped in the vast majority of games.
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  • Posted Tue Nov 8, 2011 12:06 am
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Curt Carpenter
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Chad Jensen wrote:
curtc wrote:
who's going to pay 5-6AP for 1 contract?!?

The player who gains more from doing just that than by doing something else.

I will try to keep an open mind that such a situation might theoretically happen, but I certainly haven't seen it, and can't imagine it. Certainly not as being frequent enough to warrant the system supporting it.

Chad Jensen wrote:
Sometimes you just *can't* build a City or Metropolis building so you take what you can and move on.

Right. Take your 3 permits or two permits and a nice city/metro favor and move on.

Chad Jensen wrote:
If you personally don't like paying too much for Town cards, don't. You have that option, too.

I'm discussing game design, not strategy. I'm of the opinion that each element of gameplay ought to "justify" the rules that support it. And I don't think it does in this case.
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  • Posted Tue Nov 8, 2011 12:30 am
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Radioactive Man
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curtc wrote:
I will try to keep an open mind that such a situation might theoretically happen, but I certainly haven't seen it, and can't imagine it. Certainly not as being frequent enough to warrant the system supporting it.

A situation where I've seen it happen is when a particular Town or City card gave points for a vocation that either was not taken earlier or when that vocation eventually became concentrated in one player's hand through stealing it from other players so that it finally became valuable enough to justify the high AP cost. That being said, I can't possibly see more than a nominal number of Town or City cards being taken after the Metropolis deck is opened in any one game.
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  • Edited Tue Nov 8, 2011 12:37 am
  • Posted Tue Nov 8, 2011 12:37 am
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Curt Carpenter
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BTW, Chad/Radioactive, I never even suggested getting rid of the 5AP contract slot. So there's no issue there. It's just a question of whether maintaining multiple active decks is worth it.
 
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  • Posted Tue Nov 8, 2011 1:15 am
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Chadwik
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curtc wrote:
I'm of the opinion that each element of gameplay ought to "justify" the rules that support it. And I don't think it does in this case.

Then we'll have to agree to disagree.

What is your alternative that both (a) carries with it less rules weight and (b) is demonstrably better than what is in the box?
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  • Posted Tue Nov 8, 2011 1:32 am
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Chad Jensen wrote:
What is your alternative that both (a) carries with it less rules weight and (b) is demonstrably better than what is in the box?

Nothing demonstrable yet. But the idea I would like to try (which may result in being demonstrably better) is what I described above. Namely:

0) Pretend the City/Metro deck locations didn't exist
When a new deck is unlocked:
1) Remove the previous deck from play (including any card on top).
2) Do NOT clear the contract row.
2) Replace the previous deck with the new deck. Fill vacancies using the new deck (only).

Probably will try this Thursday.
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  • Posted Tue Nov 8, 2011 2:09 am
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curtc wrote:
BTW, Chad/Radioactive, I never even suggested getting rid of the 5AP contract slot. So there's no issue there. It's just a question of whether maintaining multiple active decks is worth it.

Your point is well taken. I was merely pointing out a situation where I've seen Town or City cards taken at 5/6 AP as opposed to the cheaper Metropolis cards as a response to your statement that you couldn't imagine such a situation arising.
 
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  • Posted Tue Nov 8, 2011 4:17 pm
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Chadwik
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curtc wrote:
Chad Jensen wrote:
What is your alternative that both (a) carries with it less rules weight and (b) is demonstrably better than what is in the box?

Nothing demonstrable yet. But the idea I would like to try (which may result in being demonstrably better) is what I described above. Namely:

0) Pretend the City/Metro deck locations didn't exist
When a new deck is unlocked:
1) Remove the previous deck from play (including any card on top).
2) Do NOT clear the contract row.
2) Replace the previous deck with the new deck. Fill vacancies using the new deck (only).

Probably will try this Thursday.

On the surface this looks like a good optional rule. Let us know how it goes!
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  • Posted Tue Nov 8, 2011 6:11 pm
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Jacob Lee
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curtc wrote:
But the idea I would like to try (which may result in being demonstrably better) is what I described above. Namely:

0) Pretend the City/Metro deck locations didn't exist
When a new deck is unlocked:
1) Remove the previous deck from play (including any card on top).
2) Do NOT clear the contract row.
2) Replace the previous deck with the new deck. Fill vacancies using the new deck (only).



I'm still going through the rulebook so I don't quite understand your variant, but I want to know how it plays out so please post your results. Thanks!
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  • Edited Wed Nov 9, 2011 2:48 am
  • Posted Tue Nov 8, 2011 11:13 pm
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Scott Burns

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We played a game yesterday where one player scored 40 points with Port. He was losing, badly, and with one card, crushed us. That wasn't exactly fun.

I'm also considering a house rule that would drop the cost of the Town and City spots once they are locked into two slots.
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  • Posted Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:06 pm
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Seth Jaffee
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I finally played Urban Sprawl last night, and I could see what you had been saying about the level of chaos. However, I think there are 2 things at work here.

#1) Your post above discusses several Contract cards which can be swingy when they come up...

One could argue that if you know the game well, or if you're well diversified, or if you see the card come up and start building accordingly, then there's really no reason to cry about those swingy contracts. It's not like they trigger upon being drawn and there's nothing you can do about them. Also, presumably, if you get shafted on one, you're probably in position to score well on another...

On the other hand though, if the one you're prepared for doesn't come up, then that's kinda lame (I've seen/made this complaint in Railroad Tycoon about the Major Links). Also, the contract row changes so much that the card could come up and then be built before you get a chance to do anything about it - this was one of the comments that came up in our 3p game: "I shouldn't other even looking at these contracts until at least Brian's turn" (where Brian was the player before the speaker, who had just finished her turn. This is not different than a lot of games though)

#2) What I am most surprised about however is that our post on Reducing Chaos centered on those Contracts rather than on the Events - some of which (especially late in the game) had LARGE swingy effects that, certainly without knowing all of them ahead of time, seemed to add up to mean a lot more than the points you score "on purpose" during the game.

I found myself thinking that what I'd have preferred to see was this:
Instead of the Money/Prestige income triggered on each card, and having a ton of events start showing up all of a sudden, I'd have preferred a separate Event deck that you draw from at the end of your turn that had like 0-2 Ballot Boxes, 0-2 different rows to pay out, and 1 event to resolve. I suspect I would have enjoyed the game more that way, with a steady stream of income and events, rather than the hurkey-jerky feeling of having 7 events resolve in one turn while maybe none occur the next.

I liked the way the elections worked in general, but we really thought there should have been more ways to control that and vie for a particular office. Currently you can only adjust the value of a building if a particular Contract comes up, so the same player seemed to win the same office over and over, at least until the Urban Renewal cards came up. Later, the Contractor protected some of the buildings that were securing offices as well. We thought it would have been cool if, say, when an election came up you counted the number of lots each player has in the appropriate color, and that's who wins the election - so when a particular election is imminent, you could build certain colored lots (or take them as a favor) to try and secure the office for that election.

I've only played the game once, and I do not know if or when I'll ed up playing again. The owner of the game thought it was the worst game he's played in a long time and is not likely to want to play it again.
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  • Edited Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:57 pm
  • Posted Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:56 pm
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Kurt R
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sedjtroll wrote:
I found myself thinking that what I'd have preferred to see was this: Instead of the Money/Prestige income triggered on each card, and having a ton of events start showing up all of a sudden, I'd have preferred a separate Event deck that you draw from at the end of your turn that had like 0-2 Ballot Boxes, 0-2 different rows to pay out, and 1 event to resolve....

I liked the way the elections worked in general, but we really thought there should have been more ways to control that and vie for a particular office....

I've only played the game once, and I do not know if or when I'll ed up playing again. The owner of the game thought it was the worst game he's played in a long time and is not likely to want to play it again.

Yeah, those are pretty much what we found (among other problems). I really wanted a sense of connection between my actions and the events. My group found the game too chaotic to be interesting. I tried a variant whereby you pay to trigger the events (we considered a separate event track but went a different direction), but in the end nobody in my group wants to play this again. The thing that bugged me the most was how some moves required several minutes of analysis and computation only to have that effort undone moments later by an event or a building that popped up. I'dve preferred more long-lasting effects of one's decisions or quicker turns.
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  • Edited Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:22 pm
  • Posted Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:21 pm
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Marchal Stéphane
France
Montpellier
France
curtc wrote:
Chad Jensen wrote:
What is your alternative that both (a) carries with it less rules weight and (b) is demonstrably better than what is in the box?

Nothing demonstrable yet. But the idea I would like to try (which may result in being demonstrably better) is what I described above. Namely:

0) Pretend the City/Metro deck locations didn't exist
When a new deck is unlocked:
1) Remove the previous deck from play (including any card on top).
2) Do NOT clear the contract row.
2) Replace the previous deck with the new deck. Fill vacancies using the new deck (only).

Probably will try this Thursday.


Any news about this variant?
 
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  • Posted Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:58 pm
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Curt Carpenter
United States

Washington
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Tried it. We all preferred it and will always play that way in the future.
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  • Posted Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:50 am
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