How-To Publish Games, The Tasty Minstrel Way

United States
Fisher
Illinois

South Quarter Independent Games

Firp! ding! blast!

The first (now second, since you've switched the order) of the potential 'new largest projects' you mention seems a little prematurely placed on that list, at under $8,000.

*scratches head*

Edited Wed Nov 2, 2011 10:10 pm
Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 5:16 pm
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Jonathan Harrison

United States
Fisher
Illinois

South Quarter Independent Games

Firp! ding! blast!

etherton wrote:

A publisher promoting one of his games on his own blog? Inconceivable!

No, no, I'm fine with that. But the promotion would have worked better for me, the consumer, if it didn't seem out of place on the list.

No problem, though, just think it would have worked better somewhere where my initial reaction was[n't] to think 'I wouldn't have placed that there'.

After all, I saw the placement, and questioned its timeliness, before I got down to the bottom and saw the disclaimer.

Edited Wed Nov 2, 2011 7:17 pm
Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 5:23 pm
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Forrest Ryan

(Vanish)

United States
Boulder
Colorado

HuginnGreiling wrote:

The first of the potential 'new largest projects' you mention seems a little prematurely placed on that list, at under $8,000.

*scratches head*

I agree. My only thought is that might be based on dollars per day?

Ah, disclosure

Edited Wed Nov 2, 2011 5:24 pm
Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 5:23 pm
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Michael Mindes

United States
Tucson
Arizona

HuginnGreiling wrote:

The first of the potential 'new largest projects' you mention seems a little prematurely placed on that list, at under $8,000.

*scratches head*

It is not even 3 days in, and I know what is yet to come...

Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 5:23 pm
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Jonathan Harrison

United States
Fisher
Illinois

South Quarter Independent Games

Firp! ding! blast!

Vanish wrote:

HuginnGreiling wrote:

The first of the potential 'new largest projects' you mention seems a little prematurely placed on that list, at under $8,000.

*scratches head*

I agree. My only thought is that might be based on dollars per day?

Maybe. But I seem to remember hearing that 15? 20? 30? days is the optimal Kickstarter period. Longer durations (understandably) don't pay out at the same rate.

But who knows. Just wondering.

Edited Wed Nov 2, 2011 5:34 pm
Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 5:25 pm
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Michael Mindes

United States
Tucson
Arizona

HuginnGreiling wrote:

Vanish wrote:

HuginnGreiling wrote:

The first of the potential 'new largest projects' you mention seems a little prematurely placed on that list, at under $8,000.

*scratches head*

I agree. My only thought is that might be based on dollars per day?

Maybe. But I seem to remember hearing that 90 days is the optimal Kickstarter period. Longer durations (understandably) don't pay out at the same rate.

But who knows. Just wondering.

I edited the blog post for improving the order, providing a little more background as to start times for the currently live projects, and adding some commentary on that portion.

As for the duration of Kickstarter projects, 90 days is incredibly long. With significant preparation for content throughout the project, I feel 45 days might be the sweet spot for a ridiculous goal like the $80,000 overfunding goal on Kings of Air and Steam.

Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 5:32 pm
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Jonathan Harrison

United States
Fisher
Illinois

South Quarter Independent Games

Firp! ding! blast!

DrMayhem wrote:

HuginnGreiling wrote:

Vanish wrote:

HuginnGreiling wrote:

The first of the potential 'new largest projects' you mention seems a little prematurely placed on that list, at under $8,000.

*scratches head*

I agree. My only thought is that might be based on dollars per day?

Maybe. But I seem to remember hearing that 90 days is the optimal Kickstarter period. Longer durations (understandably) don't pay out at the same rate.

But who knows. Just wondering.

I edited the blog post for improving the order, providing a little more background as to start times for the currently live projects, and adding some commentary on that portion.

As for the duration of Kickstarter projects, 90 days is incredibly long. With significant preparation for content throughout the project, I feel 45 days might be the sweet spot for a ridiculous goal like the $80,000 overfunding goal on Kings of Air and Steam.

Ahh, ahh. Stupid me. I meant to say 15–30 days, I think. I can't remember exactly. Don't know why I wrote 90. ???

Thanks for the catch. And good luck with your game. The title, at least, grabs my attention and holds it. I'm a sucker for that sort of thing.

Edited Wed Nov 2, 2011 5:34 pm
Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 5:33 pm
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Michael Mindes

United States
Tucson
Arizona

HuginnGreiling wrote:

DrMayhem wrote:

HuginnGreiling wrote:

Vanish wrote:

HuginnGreiling wrote:

The first of the potential 'new largest projects' you mention seems a little prematurely placed on that list, at under $8,000.

*scratches head*

I agree. My only thought is that might be based on dollars per day?

Maybe. But I seem to remember hearing that 90 days is the optimal Kickstarter period. Longer durations (understandably) don't pay out at the same rate.

But who knows. Just wondering.

I edited the blog post for improving the order, providing a little more background as to start times for the currently live projects, and adding some commentary on that portion.

As for the duration of Kickstarter projects, 90 days is incredibly long. With significant preparation for content throughout the project, I feel 45 days might be the sweet spot for a ridiculous goal like the $80,000 overfunding goal on Kings of Air and Steam.

Ahh, ahh. Stupid me. I meant to say 30 days, I think. Don't know why I wrote 90.

Thanks for the catch. And good luck with your game. The title, at least, grabs my attention and holds it. I'm a sucker for that sort of thing.

Yeah, 30 days is really good. The issue was that when we did Eminent Domain, we were funding at around $2,000 a day when our project closed at about 30 days. If we ran it for another 10 days, I think we could have brought in another $10,000 or so.

Plus this time, for Kings of Air and Steam, we have a lot more planned.

Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 5:36 pm
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Jonathan Harrison

United States
Fisher
Illinois

South Quarter Independent Games

Firp! ding! blast!

All the best to you, then!

I keep edging closer and closer to getting Emininent Domain, in large part thanks to

Kenny VenOsdel

(kvenosdel)

United States
Saint Paul
Minnesota

Soon enough, I'm going to break down and get it ...

Edited Wed Nov 2, 2011 5:52 pm
Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 5:40 pm
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Marshall Miller

(Mease19)

United States
Medford
Massachusetts

I'm going to hop out and say 21-25 days is best. When I see something go up for 40 days I'm always less happy. For one, it means considering not this/next paycheck but trying to fit it into my entertainment budget farther down the road. Furthermore, I tend to run out of excitement by the time the project is funded. On the other hand, I've funded some kickstarters and received my reward before 40 days are up.

Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 5:50 pm
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Michael Mindes

United States
Tucson
Arizona

Mease19 wrote:

I'm going to hop out and say 21-25 days is best. When I see something go up for 40 days I'm always less happy. For one, it means considering not this/next paycheck but trying to fit it into my entertainment budget farther down the road. Furthermore, I tend to run out of excitement by the time the project is funded. On the other hand, I've funded some kickstarters and received my reward before 40 days are up.

Plus it puts more urgency on the sharing and promotion of the project in the immediate term.

I can see this working also.

Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 6:02 pm
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Davido

(davido)

United States
Mather
California

Any idea on how boardgame funding compares with all the other fundable projects on KickStarter (e.g. self-produced CDs, Film, books, etc. etc.)?

I think a good game that is already developed and tested and knows its audience will remain fundable, even in the flood of 'me-too' projects. For example, Divided Republic received a HUGE lift from a late buzz-drive and was basically WILLED into existence by a rabid groundswell of kickstarter backers (me included).

Edited Wed Nov 2, 2011 6:29 pm
Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 6:09 pm
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Richard Dewsbery

(RDewsbery)

United Kingdom
Sutton Coldfield

Quote:

Please, share your thoughts on this.

Where to start?

Ignoring my first and primary thought, the international shipping costs are high, plus we get to pay VAT and import duties (payable at approximately 25% of the price of the game *including shipping*, with an additional $15 levy charged by the UK postal service) would have killed any interest I had in backing future Kickstarter projects. A UK backer is paying about $127 for a $40 game.

But my first and primary thought was "Eminent Domain". I might feel happier about Kickstarter when I receive my copy of EmDo, but I seriously doubt it. Not least because it is already available in my local games shop, at a price that is less than I paid as a backer, with everything in the box that I'm getting as a backer bar one card. I believe that there's a saying, which starts "Fool me once ..."

Edited Wed Nov 2, 2011 6:21 pm
Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 6:17 pm
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Jonathan Harrison

United States
Fisher
Illinois

South Quarter Independent Games

Firp! ding! blast!

davido wrote:

I think a good game that is already developed and tested and knows its audience will remain fundable, even in the flood of 'me-too' projects. For example, Divided Republic received a HUGE lift from a late buzz-drive and was basically WILLED into existence by a rabid groundswell of kickstarter backers (me included).

And me. Man, can't wait to get it, either.

Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 6:28 pm
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Michael Mindes

United States
Tucson
Arizona

RDewsbery wrote:

Quote:

Please, share your thoughts on this.

Where to start?

Ignoring my first and primary thought, the international shipping costs are high, plus we get to pay VAT and import duties (payable at approximately 25% of the price of the game *including shipping*, with an additional $15 levy charged by the UK postal service) would have killed any interest I had in backing future Kickstarter projects. A UK backer is paying about $127 for a $40 game.

But my first and primary thought was "Eminent Domain". I might feel happier about Kickstarter when I receive my copy of EmDo, but I seriously doubt it. Not least because it is already available in my local games shop, at a price that is less than I paid as a backer, with everything in the box that I'm getting as a backer bar one card. I believe that there's a saying, which starts "Fool me once ..."

The issue of the charges made by the postal service, VAT, and import duties are things that I suggest you address with your government.

As for not yet receiving your copy please Geekmail me who the coordinator for your package was, since they should have it.

Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 6:33 pm
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KAS

(kneumann)

United States
Arlington
Virginia

Did you tag all of those games in this blog just to ping those of us who are subscribed to one or more of them?

Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 6:34 pm
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Michael Mindes

United States
Tucson
Arizona

kneumann wrote:

Did you tag all of those games in this blog just to ping those of us who are subscribed to one or more of them?

Are they not discussed in the post?

Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 6:37 pm
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Steve Duff

(UnknownParkerBrother)

Canada
Ottawa
Ontario

RDewsbery wrote:

But my first and primary thought was "Eminent Domain". I might feel happier about Kickstarter when I receive my copy of EmDo, but I seriously doubt it. Not least because it is already available in my local games shop, at a price that is less than I paid as a backer, with everything in the box that I'm getting as a backer bar one card. I believe that there's a saying, which starts "Fool me once ..."

Kickstarting is the new pre-ordering. In years past, there were always lots of complaints by folks that games were available on the shelf for cheaper than the pre-order copy that they were still waiting for.

Simply put, cheaper price and priority reception are almost never part of your kickstarter pledge. You're pledging money so that the project gets completed. Period.

The "Back this project" button is shorthand for "I want other players to pay less and to have this game before I will, as that is superior to the alternative of none of us will be able to own and play this game because it was never published".

If you don't agree with that statement, then don't click the support button.

Even for us Canadians, there are very few projects worth backing. For you Europeans, that number must be close to nil with the huge fees.

Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 6:42 pm
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KAS

(kneumann)

United States
Arlington
Virginia

DrMayhem wrote:

kneumann wrote:

Did you tag all of those games in this blog just to ping those of us who are subscribed to one or more of them?

Are they not discussed in the post?

Discussed? Not in any meaningful way that I saw as it relates to the particular games.

I would recommend you take a look at this thread: Abuse Of The Blog Feature

UPDATE: I see you added more information for each game (it was only funding totals when I first saw it), but (as of now) it still relates to kickstarter info as opposed to game specific information so I still question your tagging of them. I think the risk you run is that folks wil block your blog if they see you doing it just to get more hits.

Edited Thu Nov 3, 2011 12:12 am
Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 6:47 pm
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Doug Click

(Sayburr)

United States
Blountville
Tennessee

Nothing to see here

I have been keeping up with the top 10 funded board/card games in this geeklist: Top 10 Funded Boardgame Kickstarter Projects

Creatures: The Card Game is also now in the top 5 funded games, and it is also the most backed game.

Edited Wed Nov 2, 2011 6:50 pm
Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 6:48 pm
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Hunter Bennett-Daggett

(DiAtros)

United States
Dover
New Hampshire

What about Creatures? That's currently just over $49k, with about two days to go, putting it in fourth place on your list.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1975008436/creatures-the...

Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 6:51 pm
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Sir Bruce

(avicell)

What was the problem with Kingdom Builder? All I see is a relatively poor rating for such a well known designer.

Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 6:52 pm
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Richard Dewsbery

(RDewsbery)

United Kingdom
Sutton Coldfield

DrMayhem wrote:

The issue of the charges made by the postal service, VAT, and import duties are things that I suggest you address with your government.

We're used to paying more because of VAT and import costs - that's why a game is $40 in the US shops will be £40 (over $60) here. In return, we get free health care. I'm happy with that deal.

But $50 shipping is *incredibly* high - about twice what I'd normally expect to pay for a game with transatlantic shipping. And if I were to sign up to that deal, I know I'd have to pay an additional 25% of that $50 because of how our taxes are calculated.

It's something I've been prepared to do when pre-ordering games from GMT, Asmadi etc - although as tax *doesn't* get added to packages worth less than about $30, smaller games often get through unmolested and it is still worth pre-ordering them (yes, I get them no cheaper than the shops, but by pre-ordering it guarantees I - and others - get them at all). But the arrangements for international Kickstarter backers pretty much guarantees that international pledges will be rare - and there'll be none at all from me.

Flash Point is the last project I backed, and the last I will back. By making delivery arrangements that included a pickup at Essen, I paid the same as a US-based backer.

Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 6:57 pm
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Robert Seater

(rseater)

United States
Ashland
Massachusetts

Director of Game Development at Cambridge Games Factory

Feed me...games...

Quote:

Given this string of success, many are becoming worried that Kickstarter will be flooded with projects for bad games that will receive funding regardless. Certainly, this is a hot place to find funding right now, and consumers are likely to be more choosy, but the Kickstarter user growth probably overshadows this effect.

I think your optimism is appropriate, but for the wrong reason. The overall growth of kickstart backers won't necessarily translate to more backers in any particular niche, if the primary backers in that niche get burned out. E.g. the primary backers of these games are, as best I can tell, BGG users rather than non-BGG kickstart users. Kickstarter offered BGG followers a means to back small game publishers, more than it offered non-BGG people a reason to care about board games.

As such, if the market get flooded by bad games, a growing user base won't help. Word will be out in the niche that matters - BGG - and even good games will have trouble getting recognized, in the same way that can happen in the larger board game market these days. However, unlike the larger market, there is no viral marketing of people talking about how they liked the game (since, by definition, the game is not out yet). So, I think the honeymoon may be ending.

However, companies that have a reputation (on BGG) of consistent quality, learning from their mistakes, and putting out novel games will still have a market on KS. In this manner, I include both TMG and CGF (with which I am affiliated) and the people behind the other projects you listed. I certainly wouldn't write off all KS boardgame projects because of some delays in the early days, while companies are still learning how to be use KS. But KS does offer some different challenges from other markets.

I think there is a way for small companies that independently have earned a good reputation on BGG to use KS as a way to solve the "need money to make money" problem with publishing to a market that (despite the recent explosion) is still a small market by publishing standards. So, it is a useful tool, but it highlights an old problem that didn't use to matter so much:
How do you convince people that a game really is good before they can actually play it?

So, I wouldn't get carried away with the KS bubble and assume it means the TMG will surpass Hasbro in 2 years, but I do think we'll be seeing more strong games from TMG (and others) made possible by KS. As the kinks are ironed out, the funding levels should rise, but not exponentially.

Edited Wed Nov 2, 2011 7:02 pm
Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 7:01 pm
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Michael Mindes

United States
Tucson
Arizona

DiAtros wrote:

What about Creatures? That's currently just over $49k, with about two days to go, putting it in fourth place on your list.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1975008436/creatures-the...

I did not see it because it was not yet fully funded. Added to the list.

Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 7:07 pm
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Michael Mindes

United States
Tucson
Arizona

avicell wrote:

What was the problem with Kingdom Builder? All I see is a relatively poor rating for such a well known designer.

It temporarily showed up on Kickstarter posted by a US based company that was possibly going to be the co-publisher for the region.

Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 7:10 pm
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Michael Mindes

United States
Tucson
Arizona

rseater wrote:

So, I wouldn't get carried away with the KS bubble and assume it means the TMG will surpass Hasbro in 2 years, but I do think we'll be seeing more strong games from TMG (and others) made possible by KS. As the kinks are ironed out, the funding levels should rise, but not exponentially.

Certainly not Hasbro as a whole, but maybe their board game division...

Seriously though, I don't know where this comment comes from.

Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 7:13 pm
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SuperflyCircus Pete

(superflypete)

United States
Independence
Kentucky

www.superflycircus.blogspot.com - Best Reviews Ever!

Not a chance, but it would be interesting to watch you guys grow into a 60 million dollar company or larger. That would be awesome.

About Kickstarter, sure there's going to be shit products that come along and get funded, with people disappointed, but that's with any game or product. The system itself will not be cheapened because people aren't stupid. People research, do their due dilligence, and buy good products more often than not.

Buzz (good or bad) is created by bloggers like me or videographers like Tom and Jeremy, and people will see what the deal is. At the end of the day, the worst possible outcomes will be that people are more wary of "preordering" on Kickstarter, meaning lesser-known guys will have a harder time and things will go back to the hegemony of big publishers giving pennies on the dollar to designers, as it's always been.

Then, the cycle will start again. People who really want it to work will produce expensive press copies, send them to people that are reliable and will give a fair shake, and those people will be the unpaid sales force via reviews, interviews, and other articles.

It is as it has been for the past 10 years, and now that Kickstarting has emerged as a viable source of funding, you can't recap the bottle with the Genie inside. Worst case, as I said, is that people will be more cautious.

Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 8:07 pm
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SuperflyCircus Pete

(superflypete)

United States
Independence
Kentucky

www.superflycircus.blogspot.com - Best Reviews Ever!

DrMayhem wrote:

avicell wrote:

What was the problem with Kingdom Builder? All I see is a relatively poor rating for such a well known designer.

It temporarily showed up on Kickstarter posted by a US based company that was possibly going to be the co-publisher for the region.

You should've been a politician, because that was both generous and suave.

Real story: MayDay games was accused by many of pulling a fast one, yet again. Shocker. It really seemed like the original project was muddily (arguably misleadingly) described and because Seth Hiatt was involved, as usual, the fangs come out from the people who have always had a hard-on for him.

It was pretty shady looking, though, on its face.

Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 8:11 pm
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Michael Mindes

United States
Tucson
Arizona

superflypete wrote:

DrMayhem wrote:

avicell wrote:

What was the problem with Kingdom Builder? All I see is a relatively poor rating for such a well known designer.

It temporarily showed up on Kickstarter posted by a US based company that was possibly going to be the co-publisher for the region.

You should've been a politician, because that was both generous and suave.

I would not be re-elected. If I didn't piss off enough people as such a representative, then I did not do the job!

Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 8:49 pm
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Robert Seater

(rseater)

United States
Ashland
Massachusetts

Director of Game Development at Cambridge Games Factory

Feed me...games...

DrMayhem wrote:

Seriously though, I don't know where this comment comes from.

I was just doing a naive projection of Kickstarter growth. I wasn't trying to imply that you'd said that.

Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 10:02 pm
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Michael Mindes

United States
Tucson
Arizona

rseater wrote:

DrMayhem wrote:

Seriously though, I don't know where this comment comes from.

I was just doing a naive projection of Kickstarter growth. I wasn't trying to imply that you'd said that.

I figured there was some serious Hyperbole in there...

Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 10:02 pm
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Tim Seitz

(out4blood)

United States
Glen Allen
VA

Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him. 2 Sam 14:14

Hyperbole? In this thread?! whistle

Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011 10:06 pm
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Erik Racer

(eracer68)

United States
Urbandale
Iowa

What? No love for the Sentinels of the Multiverse: Rook City expansion on Kickstarter? Its funded and still open for backing.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1787899968/sentinels-of-...

To me, KS seems to be a different take on the P500 campaigns that GMT and other publishers do.

edit - added BGG link

Edited Thu Nov 3, 2011 2:14 am
Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 2:13 am
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Mikko Saari

(msaari)

Finland

http://www.lautapeliopas.fi/ - the best Finnish board game resource!

The shipping costs for Kings of Air and Steam are outrageous for a single copy, but for the six-game bundle they're very moderate. $30 per game turns into 35 euros after shipping and Finnish taxes. Not a bad deal at all, and it probably makes a lot more sense to Tasty Minstrel as well.

I actually wouldn't mind a similarly priced 8- or 10-game bundle. It took me now about two hours to find five other buyers for Kings of Air and Steam, and there were still others interested.

Looking forward to seeing my copy of Eminent Domain this weekend.

Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 5:30 am
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Michael Mindes

United States
Tucson
Arizona

msaari wrote:

The shipping costs for Kings of Air and Steam are outrageous for a single copy, but for the six-game bundle they're very moderate. $30 per game turns into 35 euros after shipping and Finnish taxes. Not a bad deal at all, and it probably makes a lot more sense to Tasty Minstrel as well.

I actually wouldn't mind a similarly priced 8- or 10-game bundle. It took me now about two hours to find five other buyers for Kings of Air and Steam, and there were still others interested.

Looking forward to seeing my copy of Eminent Domain this weekend.

Mikko - Awesome, and I am glad to hear that there are more interested. As for the bundle size, yes it is easy because our games come 6 to a case. This way our fulfillment agent can just print up labels, stick them on, and ship them out.

Also, since 6 games is a case size, for each additional 6 game bundle, we need another shipping premium.

Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 2:31 pm
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Mike Waleke

(madmanw)

United States
Sugar Land
Texas

I was wondering how you came up with the 6 game bundle, it makes a lot more sense to me now. I could see how it would be a huge cost savings for those who have to pay large shipping costs. (It would probably make that bundle and excellent thing to back for Alaska and Hawaii gamers; a lot of freight and no VAT).

Just out of curiosity can retailers use kick-starter to get discounted games for resale? (FYI I am not a retailer, just curious)

Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 4:03 pm
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SuperflyCircus Pete

(superflypete)

United States
Independence
Kentucky

www.superflycircus.blogspot.com - Best Reviews Ever!

Seems to me what TMG really needs is a stronger European distribution channel. This Kickstarter stuff has exposed a big weakness: shipping to Europe is egregious, and it sets too high a bar for their products in the eyes of European customers.

The choice is pay 50 US extra, or instead get 6 games and spend the time finding other customers to share the burden.

It's very tough.

Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 4:10 pm
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Michael Mindes

United States
Tucson
Arizona

superflypete wrote:

Seems to me what TMG really needs is a stronger European distribution channel. This Kickstarter stuff has exposed a big weakness: shipping to Europe is egregious, and it sets too high a bar for their products in the eyes of European customers.

The choice is pay 50 US extra, or instead get 6 games and spend the time finding other customers to share the burden.

It's very tough.

Actually, finding people seems to be easy for those that briefly look, as shown below.

msaari wrote:

I actually wouldn't mind a similarly priced 8- or 10-game bundle. It took me now about two hours to find five other buyers for Kings of Air and Steam, and there were still others interested.

Still, improved European Distribution requires time and money, both of which require profits (substantial profits really). Or partnership relationships that I can count on. I have neither, nor really have the capability/expertise/time to develop them currently.

That is just how it is... For now.

Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 4:58 pm
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Michael Mindes

United States
Tucson
Arizona

madmanw wrote:

I was wondering how you came up with the 6 game bundle, it makes a lot more sense to me now. I could see how it would be a huge cost savings for those who have to pay large shipping costs. (It would probably make that bundle and excellent thing to back for Alaska and Hawaii gamers; a lot of freight and no VAT).

Just out of curiosity can retailers use kick-starter to get discounted games for resale? (FYI I am not a retailer, just curious)

Retailers can, but they would be better off working direct with Game Salute for the preview nights deal, which will work out the bets for them!

Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 4:59 pm
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Tim Seitz

(out4blood)

United States
Glen Allen
VA

Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him. 2 Sam 14:14

DrMayhem wrote:

madmanw wrote:

I was wondering how you came up with the 6 game bundle, it makes a lot more sense to me now. I could see how it would be a huge cost savings for those who have to pay large shipping costs. (It would probably make that bundle and excellent thing to back for Alaska and Hawaii gamers; a lot of freight and no VAT).

Just out of curiosity can retailers use kick-starter to get discounted games for resale? (FYI I am not a retailer, just curious)

Retailers can, but they would be better off working direct with Game Salute for the preview nights deal, which will work out the bets for them!

What bets? Is there an over/under on the Kickstarter final tally?

My FLGS owner is quite the gambler; he'd be interested in hearing more about this.

Edited Thu Nov 3, 2011 5:38 pm
Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 5:37 pm
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Michael Mindes

United States
Tucson
Arizona

out4blood wrote:

DrMayhem wrote:

madmanw wrote:

I was wondering how you came up with the 6 game bundle, it makes a lot more sense to me now. I could see how it would be a huge cost savings for those who have to pay large shipping costs. (It would probably make that bundle and excellent thing to back for Alaska and Hawaii gamers; a lot of freight and no VAT).

Just out of curiosity can retailers use kick-starter to get discounted games for resale? (FYI I am not a retailer, just curious)

Retailers can, but they would be better off working direct with Game Salute for the preview nights deal, which will work out the bets for them!

What bets? Is there an over/under on the Kickstarter final tally?

My FLGS owner is quite the gambler; he'd be interested in hearing more about this.

*BEST*

Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 7:01 pm
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Tim Seitz

(out4blood)

United States
Glen Allen
VA

Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him. 2 Sam 14:14

DrMayhem wrote:

out4blood wrote:

DrMayhem wrote:

madmanw wrote:

I was wondering how you came up with the 6 game bundle, it makes a lot more sense to me now. I could see how it would be a huge cost savings for those who have to pay large shipping costs. (It would probably make that bundle and excellent thing to back for Alaska and Hawaii gamers; a lot of freight and no VAT).

Just out of curiosity can retailers use kick-starter to get discounted games for resale? (FYI I am not a retailer, just curious)

Retailers can, but they would be better off working direct with Game Salute for the preview nights deal, which will work out the bets for them!

What bets? Is there an over/under on the Kickstarter final tally?

My FLGS owner is quite the gambler; he'd be interested in hearing more about this.

*BEST*

Oh... it's already started. cry

Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 7:35 pm
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Ed Sherman

(edosan)

United States
Colorado Springs
Colorado

I am really new to the Kickstarter thing but I did pony up the money for D-Day Dice and I'll tell you why:

1) It was a Print and Play game first, so I knew I'd like it. I don't buy games I'm not at least reasonably sure I'd like so this helped a lot.

2) The "Line for Life." The chance to pay and get everything that is announced for the game when it comes out (almost like a subscription model) was too good a deal to pass up.

Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 8:37 pm
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Michael Mindes

United States
Tucson
Arizona

edosan wrote:

I am really new to the Kickstarter thing but I did pony up the money for D-Day Dice and I'll tell you why:

1) It was a Print and Play game first, so I knew I'd like it. I don't buy games I'm not at least reasonably sure I'd like so this helped a lot.

2) The "Line for Life." The chance to pay and get everything that is announced for the game when it comes out (almost like a subscription model) was too good a deal to pass up.

HMM, I might have to look at a line for life type of pledge level. The problem is that we do not have a bunch of expansions ready to go.

Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 9:08 pm
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Doug Click

(Sayburr)

United States
Blountville
Tennessee

Nothing to see here

DrMayhem wrote:

edosan wrote:

I am really new to the Kickstarter thing but I did pony up the money for D-Day Dice and I'll tell you why:

1) It was a Print and Play game first, so I knew I'd like it. I don't buy games I'm not at least reasonably sure I'd like so this helped a lot.

2) The "Line for Life." The chance to pay and get everything that is announced for the game when it comes out (almost like a subscription model) was too good a deal to pass up.

HMM, I might have to look at a line for life type of pledge level. The problem is that we do not have a bunch of expansions ready to go.

Yeah, I seem to recall there were a lot of expansions already created for the PnP version and the designer has a lot that he had been working on anyway.

Lookin at the Kickstarter page today I noticed a lot of questionable games hitting... I guess with the receient successes from Kickstarter everyone is hopeing to hit the Kickstater Jackpot...

Creatures sure did hit it!

Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011 9:16 pm
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Scott Everts

United States
Foothill Ranch
California

MITCHELL!!!

Push the button, Frank!

I have another question for you. I noticed the admins scrubbed all your kickstarter links from the Kings of Air and Steam page. But for many other games they are free to leave them and use the BGG pages heavily for promotion. I'm guessing it depends on advertizing with the site since I haven't seen any for Kings but some of the other games do.

Don't want to start any flames or anything but curious why they have been inconsistent on policing some games and not others.

Posted Sat Nov 5, 2011 9:21 pm
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Michael Mindes

United States
Tucson
Arizona

ScottE wrote:

I have another question for you. I noticed the admins scrubbed all your kickstarter links from the Kings of Air and Steam page. But for many other games they are free to leave them and use the BGG pages heavily for promotion. I'm guessing it depends on advertizing with the site since I haven't seen any for Kings but some of the other games do.

Don't want to start any flames or anything but curious why they have been inconsistent on policing some games and not others.

I do not know how they go about "policing", but I do a decent amount of advertising with BGG, so I doubt it is that.

It was probably just brought to somebody's attention on the Kings of Air and Steam page, but not others. I setup the links in the wiki, because I thought they would be helpful to the sites users.

I see that the D-Day Dice page has a link directly to Kickstarter in the wiki, for example.

Maybe it is because I put the link there and not a 3rd party user? I really do not know, nor do I care to further speculate.

Posted Sat Nov 5, 2011 9:48 pm
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Scott Everts

United States
Foothill Ranch
California

MITCHELL!!!

Push the button, Frank!

It does seem very odd. Certainly D-Day Dice has really been leveraging BGG and it shows on their Kickstarter income.

Impulse buyers don't tend to work that hard to find something unless there's an easy link.

I wonder how many Kickstarter success stories involve heavy leveraging of BGG? BGG has had a rocky relationship with promotions in the past.

Oh well, certainly understand you not wanting to step in that particular minefield!

Posted Sat Nov 5, 2011 10:16 pm
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Jonathan Warren

(JoffW)

United Kingdom
Wisbech
CAMBRIDGESHIRE

"Elves are very good at board games, and I'm NOT an elf!"

Picking up the baton for international shipping...

I rarely support KS projects as the shipping/customs/handling fees are just simply too high. I backed Flash Point: Fire Rescue because it could be picked up in Essen, avoiding the aforementioned costs - it was a very reasonable buy at £28 (with the expansion as well). I have also signed up with 3 others to a 'Line for Life' for D-Day Dice (a game I am looking forward to), mainly because the one off cost of shipping, plus access to everything to be released for the game, was too good to miss and substantially lowered the cost - it will cost me just £10 more than the entry level KS pledge to receive everything available in March 2012, and still be able to get all future releases. Anyway, to actually get to my point, the cost to UK buyers (and most of Europe) is the reason I hate KS game-changing exclusive stuff (and by that I mean really exclusive and not using semantics to explain away what 'exclusive' means); it discriminates against those that live outside the US. Finding out that your (future) favourite game is being released through KS with an exclusive game-changing card deck and not being able to obtain them for a later distributed shop bought copy because you simply couldn't afford to pay silly money to make a KS pledge is annoying.

I wondered in another thread why publishers don't create a pledge level containing just the game-changing exclusives so that international buyers could buy them (at a pledge level where customs charges are not invoked), supporting the game itself and then buying a copy of the game when it reaches their FLGS/OLGS. I can see other problems with this, but it might be worth considering on future projects.

Edited Sun Nov 6, 2011 6:42 am
Posted Sat Nov 5, 2011 10:41 pm
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Scott Everts

United States
Foothill Ranch
California

MITCHELL!!!

Push the button, Frank!

JoffW wrote:

I wondered in another thread why publishers don't create a pledge level containing just the game-changing exclusives so that international buyers could buy them (a pledge level where customs charges are not invoked), supporting the game itself and then buying a copy of the game when it reaches their FLGS/OLGS. I can see other problems with this, but it might be worth considering on future projects.

That's actually a brilliant idea. I feel bad so many International gamers are punished so badly on shipping, customs, VATS, etc. It's not the publisher's fault obviously but still is unfortunate. Doing an "exclusive only" Kickstarter level would really help there.

I agree that there are too many cool exclusives on Kickstarter and I've not bought games based on missing out on the Kickstarter window and didn't want to have a lesser game.

Seems on Kings of Air and Steam they are trying a different tactic with no exclusives but a discount only and a price fixing plan to make the discount more desirable. Will be interested to see how that works. I know on both Sunrise City & Empires of the Void I wanted the extras so backed those. I'll most likely back Kings but the discount isn't a huge draw for me to do it right away. Though the higher income levels extras are a draw.

I've actually been thinking about that a bit. So you have a kickstarter with exclusive awesome extras. You are interested in the game, and there's a discount on top of that too. Seems a no brainer to back it. Another kickstarter game has no extras but discount and extras if it gets to a certain level. Backing it is less desirable since waiting will get you the same game for $10 or $20 more and you can wait for reviews. If the game is starting to get close to an upgrade level it might entice you to invest but if its far away it seems unattainable so you decide to wait and see. And if everyone is doing that, it might not ever make it.

There's certainly a psychology there on pushing gamer desires. Interesting to think about.

Posted Sat Nov 5, 2011 11:06 pm
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Michael Mindes

United States
Tucson
Arizona

ScottE wrote:

JoffW wrote:

I wondered in another thread why publishers don't create a pledge level containing just the game-changing exclusives so that international buyers could buy them (a pledge level where customs charges are not invoked), supporting the game itself and then buying a copy of the game when it reaches their FLGS/OLGS. I can see other problems with this, but it might be worth considering on future projects.

That's actually a brilliant idea. I feel bad so many International gamers are punished so badly on shipping, customs, VATS, etc. It's not the publisher's fault obviously but still is unfortunate. Doing an "exclusive only" Kickstarter level would really help there.

I agree that there are too many cool exclusives on Kickstarter and I've not bought games based on missing out on the Kickstarter window and didn't want to have a lesser game.

Seems on Kings of Air and Steam they are trying a different tactic with no exclusives but a discount only and a price fixing plan to make the discount more desirable. Will be interested to see how that works. I know on both Sunrise City & Empires of the Void I wanted the extras so backed those. I'll most likely back Kings but the discount isn't a huge draw for me to do it right away. Though the higher income levels extras are a draw.

I've actually been thinking about that a bit. So you have a kickstarter with exclusive awesome extras. You are interested in the game, and there's a discount on top of that too. Seems a no brainer to back it. Another kickstarter game has no extras but discount and extras if it gets to a certain level. Backing it is less desirable since waiting will get you the same game for $10 or $20 more and you can wait for reviews. If the game is starting to get close to an upgrade level it might entice you to invest but if its far away it seems unattainable so you decide to wait and see. And if everyone is doing that, it might not ever make it.

There's certainly a psychology there on pushing gamer desires. Interesting to think about.

I think it is a good thing to point out here also that the overfunding levels boost the production level of the game forever, and not just for the Kickstarter backers.

Also, with Eminent Domain, I learned some things. For me, it makes sense to provide only monetary and temporal exclusives, AKA discount and early release. I know I am going to "force" or "entice" less people to support via Kickstarter. However, thanks to the customer/fan base of Tasty Minstrel Games, I am confident that such tactics are unneeded without excluding future purchasers.

Right now however, I am looking into a "bling only" and not "game changing" exclusive as a possibility. This exclusive would be available to Kickstarter supporters and preview night retailers.

There are many individual options to consider, each of which has their own effects on the psychology of the buying process.

Posted Sat Nov 5, 2011 11:34 pm
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Scott Everts

United States
Foothill Ranch
California

MITCHELL!!!

Push the button, Frank!

Thanks for the feedback, I always find it fascinating your perspective as a publisher. I agree that you are big enough that exclusives aren't a necessary thing to make your project amounts. And you do have a good amount of fans and this year was huge for you on quality titles.

I was on the fence about supporting D-Day Dice until I noticed the insane amount of content they were offering for $100. I've never seen a game offer "expansions forever" level and seemed like a too good to be true price. They did only offer 50 of them. I expect they are "loss leader" items to get traffic. A big loss for them but a great way to get people in the door. Worked on me! We might see more attempts to get early interest.

I fully support your plan to offer bling enticements. I know Sunrise City offered shirts and hats. Not sure how successful that was. For me, I'm much more interested in content over cloths lines. But little extras like that might get some people to support. More likely work if they are included free to backers instead of extra amounts.

Posted Sun Nov 6, 2011 12:41 am
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Nate Downs

(casperthegoth)

United States
Granville
Ohio

DrMayhem wrote:

For me, it makes sense to provide only monetary and temporal exclusives, AKA discount and early release.

I think this is wise, perhaps a little unpopular, but truly the best possible incentive...

Look at the fuss over Quarriors promos arriving in the BGG store! People are swearing of WizKids for good because of it. Pretty nuts, really...

Now you just have to keep your word - which could be difficult if you have pallets of a game you have to sit on for a month, or you only get half the kickstarter orders in first...

The discount is kinda odd as well. I interpret your promise that CoolStuffInc will be forced to offer the game at list price, or not offer it at all for a period - it better be a damn good game then...

On to the next point - let's see some art!

Posted Sun Nov 6, 2011 1:55 am
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Michael Mindes

United States
Tucson
Arizona

ScottE wrote:

Thanks for the feedback, I always find it fascinating your perspective as a publisher. I agree that you are big enough that exclusives aren't a necessary thing to make your project amounts. And you do have a good amount of fans and this year was huge for you on quality titles.

I was on the fence about supporting D-Day Dice until I noticed the insane amount of content they were offering for $100. I've never seen a game offer "expansions forever" level and seemed like a too good to be true price. They did only offer 50 of them. I expect they are "loss leader" items to get traffic. A big loss for them but a great way to get people in the door. Worked on me! We might see more attempts to get early interest.

I fully support your plan to offer bling enticements. I know Sunrise City offered shirts and hats. Not sure how successful that was. For me, I'm much more interested in content over cloths lines. But little extras like that might get some people to support. More likely work if they are included free to backers instead of extra amounts.

They offered another 150 slots for the line for life at $125. Those 2 put together make for some serious social proof with +200 backers and $23,750.

Plus it may only be a loss leader over the long-term. What is the time value of the up front money?

Posted Sun Nov 6, 2011 1:16 am
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Michael Mindes

United States
Tucson
Arizona

casperthegoth wrote:

DrMayhem wrote:

For me, it makes sense to provide only monetary and temporal exclusives, AKA discount and early release.

I think this is wise, perhaps a little unpopular, but truly the best possible incentive...

Look at the fuss over Quarriors promos arriving in the BGG store! People are swearing of WizKids for good because of it. Pretty nuts, really...

Now you just have to keep your word - which could be difficult if you have pallets of a game you have to sit on for a month, or you only get half the kickstarter orders in first...

The discount is kinda odd as well. I interpret your promise that CoolStuffInc will be forced to offer the game at list price, or not offer it at all for a period - it better be a damn good game then...

On to the next point - let's see some art!

Working on bringing in more art to see. The way I understand the contract works that Cool Stuff and other such shops would only be able to offer it in their local store and not online.

Posted Sun Nov 6, 2011 1:17 am
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Michael Mindes

United States
Tucson
Arizona

A piece of sample art is up now... If you like it, then please remember what the little green thumb is for:

http://boardgamegeek.com/image/1142976/kings-of-air-and-stea...

Posted Mon Nov 7, 2011 8:17 pm
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Scott Everts

United States
Foothill Ranch
California

MITCHELL!!!

Push the button, Frank!

The game is looking good! Thanks for showing off more of the art. You should post the other one you have up on Kickstarter.

For those that are too lazy to click!

Posted Mon Nov 7, 2011 8:42 pm
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Nate Downs

(casperthegoth)

United States
Granville
Ohio

Just looking over things and noticed something that may come up as a "truth in advertising" type of issue for you...

You say that the MSRP will be 49.95 due to the contract relationship you are developing with local stores - however... the $45 level for the kickstarter says the game is 25% off. This is actually only 10%.

I get that things are lining up differently - but the sharks seem to like to bite you, and this is more than enough meat for them - I think...

A suggestion may be to have the 60 dollar MSRP and use the ten dollars per copy to enhance it as described by over funding goals. 20% more per copy should be big enough to get something done... ? Then lower the other overfundings to appropriate levels with the new info...

Edited Wed Nov 9, 2011 2:31 am
Posted Wed Nov 9, 2011 2:28 am
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Michael Mindes

United States
Tucson
Arizona

casperthegoth wrote:

Just looking over things and noticed something that may come up as a "truth in advertising" type of issue for you...

You say that the MSRP will be 49.95 due to the contract relationship you are developing with local stores - however... the $45 level for the kickstarter says the game is 25% off. This is actually only 10%.

I get that things are lining up differently - but the sharks seem to like to bite you, and this is more than enough meat for them - I think...

A suggestion may be to have the 60 dollar MSRP and use the ten dollars per copy to enhance it as described by over funding goals. 20% more per copy should be big enough to get something done... ? Then lower the other overfundings to appropriate levels with the new info...

It says "This is 25% less than the game should cost!" which is later explained about how we are supporting local retailers through a special distribution arrangement which means the game that would be $60 under a normal distribution method is $50 MSRP.

This has already been pointed out elsewhere and I have had no shark bites yet.

Posted Wed Nov 9, 2011 2:48 am
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Seth Jaffee

(sedjtroll)

United States
Tucson
Arizona

DrMayhem wrote:

casperthegoth wrote:

Just looking over things and noticed something that may come up as a "truth in advertising" type of issue for you...

You say that the MSRP will be 49.95 due to the contract relationship you are developing with local stores - however... the $45 level for the kickstarter says the game is 25% off. This is actually only 10%.

I get that things are lining up differently - but the sharks seem to like to bite you, and this is more than enough meat for them - I think...

A suggestion may be to have the 60 dollar MSRP and use the ten dollars per copy to enhance it as described by over funding goals. 20% more per copy should be big enough to get something done... ? Then lower the other overfundings to appropriate levels with the new info...

It says "This is 25% less than the game should cost!" which is later explained about how we are supporting local retailers through a special distribution arrangement which means the game that would be $60 under a normal distribution method is $50 MSRP.

This has already been pointed out elsewhere and I have had no shark bites yet.

Even still, it might be wise to make that abundantly clear on the KS page...

Posted Wed Nov 9, 2011 2:54 am
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Michael Mindes

United States
Tucson
Arizona

sedjtroll wrote:

DrMayhem wrote:

casperthegoth wrote:

Just looking over things and noticed something that may come up as a "truth in advertising" type of issue for you...

You say that the MSRP will be 49.95 due to the contract relationship you are developing with local stores - however... the $45 level for the kickstarter says the game is 25% off. This is actually only 10%.

I get that things are lining up differently - but the sharks seem to like to bite you, and this is more than enough meat for them - I think...

A suggestion may be to have the 60 dollar MSRP and use the ten dollars per copy to enhance it as described by over funding goals. 20% more per copy should be big enough to get something done... ? Then lower the other overfundings to appropriate levels with the new info...

It says "This is 25% less than the game should cost!" which is later explained about how we are supporting local retailers through a special distribution arrangement which means the game that would be $60 under a normal distribution method is $50 MSRP.

This has already been pointed out elsewhere and I have had no shark bites yet.

Even still, it might be wise to make that abundantly clear on the KS page...

It is abundantly clear...

"Kings of Air and Steam will be available through local retailers and the Tasty Minstrel Games website. It will not be available through any online discount retailers.

This is to support the local retailers that choose to support Kings of Air and Steam. Without this relationship the MSRP would need to be $59.95. This allows us to drop the MSRP to $49.95"

Posted Wed Nov 9, 2011 3:12 am
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Michael Black

(ptdnet)

United States
Brooklyn
New York

Quote:

Kickstarter will be flooded with projects for bad games that will receive funding regardless

That's called a bubble. It happens in every market and you just need to ride it out.

Posted Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:00 pm
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Richard Dewsbery

(RDewsbery)

United Kingdom
Sutton Coldfield

The people who are hurt by such bubbles are invariably the investors (read "people buying the games").

The companies who are there for the quick buck either make it or don't, largely depending upon whether their startup was before or during the bubble, or whether they left it late (just before the bubble goes "pop").

But it's the companies who usually stand to make more from a bubble. "Riding it out" requires us to sit on our hands and keep our wallets closed, something that many of us are not exactly known for.

Posted Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:41 am
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Scott Everts