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Essen 2011 and the BGG Top 100

Jesse Dean
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Every year after Essen I feel a bit of excitement as I see what games are making their way up the BGG rankings. It is simply fun rooting for my own personal favorites to make their way up the BGG rankings, potentially landing in the Top 100, while at the same time hoping that other games, which I view less favorably, fail to make it as far. Ultimately, it does not matter, since there are plenty of games both inside and outside of the Top 100 that I view as very good games, but the perceived competition itself is enjoyable.

Generally, for a game to be able to make it into the BGG Top 100 it has to get pretty strong initial ratings. An initial neutral to negative response from early adopters can slow down the game’s momentum, and barring something extraordinary, prevent it from ultimately getting the quantity and quality of ratings it needs to make the Top 100 as people will get scared away from a game that rates poorly. This is particularly true since initial ratings tend to be from early adopters who are more likely to rate a game well. Once it hits a wider audience, average rating almost always goes down, meaning that the earliest ratings frequently indicate the highest average rating this game will ever get. So for the purpose of this blog, I am going to look at those games that I consider being in the running for the Top 100 and am outright rejecting games that have below a 7.80 average rating. This average rating is higher than that of many games that currently are in the BGG Top 100, but as noted above, it is reasonable to expect these ratings to decline over time.

In addition to high average ratings over time, a game needs to be able to get a sufficient quantity of ratings in order to reach the Top 100. A game with a low number of ratings but a really high average rating, like the War of the Ring Collector’s Edition, can get there, but generally you need to have thousands of ratings in order to break past the dummy ratings and have a shot at getting into the Top 100. This means that games with a wide distribution, particularly with the American audiences that are the most common on BGG, have a definite advantage in getting into the Top 100. This wide distribution comes with a cost though, as a game with one is also more likely to encounter people who do not like it, bringing the average rating down.

So of the games released at Essen 2011, I think 10 have some shot at making the Top 100 based on their average rating. Some of these are released by smaller board game companies and might not make it if they never get picked up for a wider distribution, or if people outside of the core audience dislike it, but there is at least a chance they will.

Very Likely
Eclipse – 8.45 (161 ratings)
If any game can be considered the true hit of Essen 2011, this one can. It sold very well and has received fantastic ratings, with some even going so far as to say it is the best board game that has been released in years. It is a relatively fast space epic game, which is something that players have been actively wanting for years. The fact that Asmodee is going to be publishing it in the United States meaning that it is going to get into the hands of a lot of people, virtually assuring that a number of excited gamers will get their hands on it. Eclipse is virtually assured a spot in the Top 100 and may very well make the Top 25 if it can keep its current momentum.

Mage Knight Board Game 8.26 (74 ratings)
The Mage Knight Board Game will likely do well for the same reasons as Eclipse, but it has a couple of items that will potentially slow it down. The first is that it appears to be a bit more complicated than Eclipse, meaning that there is a good shot that people will get turned off by an initial negative reaction to that complexity. The second is that, despite being associated with the Mage Knight brand, and thus more likely to be purchased by fans of the old Mage Knight Collectible Miniatures Game (CMG), it also has violated some elements of the game’s mythos, and thus could get poor ratings from Mage Knight CMG fans who are upset about that. Beyond those two items, it looks like it has a strong shot at the Top 100. With Wizkids as the publisher, it will almost certainly be in every board game shop in America. It appears to be an adventure game that is specifically tailored for the sort of gamers that frequent BGG, with a strong strategic backbone and one of the hottest designers around. I am even going to get it, despite not being a big fan of fantasy adventure games genre.

Ora et Labora – 8.18 (67 ratings)
While his last two games have not done well in the rankings, Ora et Labora has the makings of another strong showing from Uwe Rosenberg. It is the sort of heavy euro resource conversion game that, while not as popular as they once were, are like catnip to the BGG crowd. Uwe’s previous two designs: Agricola and Le Havre are both in the Top 10 on BGG, and the simple fact that he has made another game in their style might be enough to get this game in the Top 100. It also has the strong initial ratings it needs to be able to make it for the long haul. Third, Z-Man Games is distributing it which means it has the reach needed to get sufficient ratings to make the Top 100. The only real downsides are that it looks like it has even more to think about then Le Havre, so its complexity might be outside of the comfort zone of the average BGGer, and the combination of low interaction with no randomness, so it might have a low degree of interplay variability. I don’t think that either of these items will prevent it from making the Top 100 and, for me personally, the question is not whether Ora et Labora will make the Top 100. The question is whether it will be the third Uwe Rosenberg game to make the Top 25. I think the answer is probably not, but it will be interesting to see!

Likely
Dungeon Petz – 7.85 (138 ratings)
Dungeon Petz is the second game on this list from designer Vlaada Chavatil, and another one that I think is likely to make it into the Top 100. Like Ora et Labora it is being distributed by Z-Man Games, meaning that it should be pretty widely available. Additionally, Dungeon Petz is clearly designed with “gamers” in mind, and Vlaada Chavatil has proven very effective in designing games that appeal to BGG raters; since 2006 every single game he has made that has been designed for “gamers” has made the Top 100. The big thing holding this one back is the relatively low initial ratings for the game. While a 7.85 average rating is by no means low, it does not leave a lot of room for rating degradation over time. How well Dungeon Petz does will depend a lot on the overall level of degradation. If it can remain fairly low then this one will easily make the Top 100, and perhaps even the Top 50. I suspect it will keep constant enough to be able to make it.



Depends on Distribution
Trajan – 7.93 (149 ratings)
Trajan is by another game by one of BGG’s established designers: Stefan Feld. While Stefan Feld hasn’t been quite as successful in getting top ranked games as Vlaada Chavatil or Uwe Rosenberg, he is respected, and his name on the box is frequently enough for people to check it out. The initial rating of 7.93 also is strong, and indicates that it might have enough appeal to go far in the rankings. The main thing that could potentially hold it back is the lack of US distribution. Unless it gets this, it might not get the quantity of ratings that it needs to make the Top 100. Assuming it does make it to the US, I have every expectation of it making it, however.

Vanuatu – 7.90 (71 ratings)
Vanuatu is another game whose fate in the rankings I expect will largely hang on the results of getting a distribution deal in the United States. However, Vanuatu’s approachable theme, largely positive initial reactions, and the general style of the game mean that I think this is pretty likely. While it does not have the name recognition that comes with having an established designer like Stefan Feld’s on the box, a copy did make it to BGG.Con, meaning it has a good shot of building the buzz that has been enough to launch games, such as Hansa Teutonica in 2009, into the US in the past.

MIL (1049) - 7.91 (68 ratings)
MIL (1049) is another game that has gotten good initial buzz from Essen attendees that needs US distribution to make the Top 100. The game itself looks like it has the correct combination of the familiar and the innovative to appeal to BGG gamers, and a play time that allows it to be played even in shorter game nights. What could potentially hold it back, in addition to distribution, are the relative complexity of the rules; reports from Essen, while largely possible, did indicate some difficulty with understanding how the game worked. Despite this, I think the game has a pretty good shot of doing well in the rankings if a US publisher picks it up. However, of these three, I think that it has the lowest odds of getting US distribution.

Possible
Hawaii – 7.80 (65 ratings)
Unlike the previous category of games, Hawaii has a distribution deal in the US, however while I think it is possible that Hawaii will make the Top 100, I am a bit less certain about it. The biggest thing holding it back is its initial average rating. While 7.80 is not a bad rating, it might not be sufficient for it to make it to the Top 100 if it decays to any extent as it gains ratings. Beyond that, I don’t have any real basis for judging its fate. Its rules are currently unavailable, so I am uncertain of how appealing Hawaii is on the whole, and most of the references I have seen have mentioned its similarities to Vikings, a solid game but not one that set the BGG rankings on fire.

Quebec – 7.82 (59 ratings)
My expectations for Quebec are similar to those with Hawaii. Its initial rating is decent, but not strong enough that it can take any serious rating decay and still make it to the Top 100. It has a distribution deal with Asmodee, which it means it should be seen by enough gamers to allow it to make the Top 100. It is simply a matter of seeing how much people like it once it gets into their hands.

Colonial: Europe’s Empires Overseas – 8.15 (52 ratings)
While I enjoy Colonial quite a bit, I think it is the game that is least likely to make it to the Top 100 of those on the list. It has a strong initial rating, but that rating is based on the smallest sample size of any game on this list and is thus pretty volatile. Additionally, based on my play, I am uncertain of how well it will do well in the overall market. It is best with 5 or 6 players and can be fairly long with that number, and games that are both long and require a large number of players to shine have not traditionally done very well in the BGG rankings. These items may be sufficient enough that it will not see the US distribution deal that is needed to allow this one to make it into the Top 100. Still, unlike a lot of Essen games, it is possible so it will be interesting to see how things develop from here.

So that is the field as I currently see it. Is there any Essen 2011 games that I am missing that you think will/could make the Top 100?
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Subscribe sub options Fri Nov 4, 2011 6:38 pm
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David Etherton
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Walnut Grove? Co-designer is the designer of Eclipse. Probably a little lighter than you'd like, but more my speed. Granted, I'm pretty interested in Eclipse as well.

-Dave
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 6:44 pm
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Jesse Dean
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etherton wrote:
Walnut Grove? Co-designer is the designer of Eclipse. Probably a little lighter than you'd like, but more my speed. Granted, I'm pretty interested in Eclipse as well.

-Dave


With an average rating of 7.24 it will not make the Top 100. Top 200? maybe. Top 100 is not going to happen.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 6:46 pm
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David Etherton
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Guess I should have checked the rating and personal comments (couple of bad ratings and nothing higher than an eight so far) before opening my mouth. But but but... I *want* it to be good. You ever finding yourself reading up on a game and hoping it's that magic game that scratches some particular itch (deck building, resource conversion, auction, whatever) you've had for a while, and they almost never actually live up to your expectations?

-Dave
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 6:51 pm
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Jesse Dean
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Of course. My long string of poor ratings for deck building games definitely show that. Who knows maybe Walnut Grove will end up being one of those magic games that defy intial ratings? (I can't think of any games where this has happened before, but you never know...)
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 6:53 pm
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Bart de Vos
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I think Takenoko might have a shot at it. It wasn't available for sale in Essen, but it was possible to try out the game and for me and at least a few others it was a sure hit.

When this comes out in a few months I think it might become a big hit as it is a great new fun family game by well-known designer Antoine Bauza.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 6:55 pm
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Curt Carpenter
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Others, some depending on distribution:
Helvetia
Last Will
Drum Roll
Power Grid: First Sparks
Santiago de Cuba
Kingdom Builder
Tournay

What's really amazing is that Vlaada has two out of the top five or so (or certainly top ten without any debate). That's just ridiculously amazing.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 6:56 pm
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Jesse Dean
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Now Takenoko might have a shot. It has a very small shot, but it has a shot. To do so though, it would have to maintain a near-constant average rating as it increases in votes and get a rather large number of votes.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 6:57 pm
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Weird Fox
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etherton wrote:
Guess I should have checked the rating and personal comments (couple of bad ratings and nothing higher than an eight so far) before opening my mouth. But but but... I *want* it to be good. You ever finding yourself reading up on a game and hoping it's that magic game that scratches some particular itch (deck building, resource conversion, auction, whatever) you've had for a while, and they almost never actually live up to your expectations?

-Dave


This is sort of how I feel about Kingdom Builder. Looks intriguing, has a little bit of that "surprise! This year's game of the year is a filler" thing that 7 Wonders had going for it, etc. But I see that it hasn't debuted as strongly as I would have thought, and looks like the earliest ratings are pretty polarizing. I was pretty well convinced it'd do well, but maybe I shouldn't actually try to speculate on how the boardgaming market will move.

J
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 6:58 pm
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Jesse Dean
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curtc wrote:
Others, some depending on distribution:
Helvetia
Last Will
Drum Roll
Power Grid: First Sparks
Santiago de Cuba
Kingdom Builder
Tournay

What's really amazing is that Vlaada has two out of the top five or so (or certainly top ten without any debate). That's just ridiculously amazing.


A lot of those would have to either have no rating decline at all or actually increase in rating to make it to the Top 100. While I could be wrong, I largely do not see that happening. I could be wrong about maybe one of them though, and get an interesting little surprise. Kingdom Builder has something like a 6.89 so it definitely will not make the Top 100.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 6:59 pm
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Curt Carpenter
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doubtofbuddha wrote:
Kingdom Builder has something like a 6.89 so it definitely will not make the Top 100.

Unless the masses rate it higher than the Essen frieks. I can imagine a game like Ticket To Ride doing much better with the public than with people also comparing it against Eclipse or Mage Knight.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 7:02 pm
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Does German Railways count as Essen 2011? If so, I expect the Queen release to do good things.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 7:06 pm
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Jesse Dean
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I suppose. Though it also is battling against an average rating that will almost certainly keep it out of the Top 100.

I am still looking forward to my copy though!
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 7:08 pm
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I have my own doubts whether the game is good enough, but if it gets into the 5000 ratings range, a couple hundred (averaging 6.8) can be easily offset.

But yeah, the top 100, is getting harder to crack. A few years ago it seemed like every decent game landed there, at least for a while.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 7:14 pm
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Look at Wabash Cannonball and Chicago Express. And German Railways is much more of a crowd-pleasing, fun-time game that WC/CE.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 7:27 pm
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I am still optimistic that The Resistance will fight its way into the top 100 from Essen 2010. On current track that will happen March/April of 2012.

Getting in on number of ratings is a long haul, especially if the game's appeal is outside the scope of BGG.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 7:31 pm
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Jesse Dean
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Right. Neither of them have the average rating needed to get them into the Top 100 either.

I hope I am wrong about German Railways, because it looks like I am going to like it a lot, but as it stands it will not make the Top 100.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 7:33 pm
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Jesse Dean
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T Worthington wrote:
I am still optimistic that The Resistance will fight its way into the top 100 from Essen 2010. On current track that will happen March/April of 2012.

Getting in on number of ratings is a long haul, especially if the game's appeal is outside the scope of BGG.


Indeed, the Resistance actually has a small chance of making it. Even if it loses little bit of its average rating over the next three thousands votes it should be able to get there eventually.

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  • Edited Fri Nov 4, 2011 7:38 pm
  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 7:36 pm
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For me, Colonial: Europe's Empires Overseas fits in the Category "likely". And I am missing Power Grid: The First Sparks.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 7:37 pm
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Quote:
Very Likely
Eclipse – 8.45 (161 ratings)

Sorry to be a killjoy, but I just rated Eclipse a 6.
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  • Edited Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:18 pm
  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 7:44 pm
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Jesse Dean
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garygarison wrote:
Quote:
Very Likely
Eclipse – 8.45 (161 ratings)

Sorry to be a killjoy, but I just rated Eclipse a 6.


I am not surprised. And I still think Eclipse will make the Top 100 pretty easily. Your tastes are pretty far outside of the BGG mainstream.
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  • Edited Fri Nov 4, 2011 7:48 pm
  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 7:46 pm
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curtc wrote:
doubtofbuddha wrote:
Kingdom Builder has something like a 6.89 so it definitely will not make the Top 100.

Unless the masses rate it higher than the Essen frieks. I can imagine a game like Ticket To Ride doing much better with the public than with people also comparing it against Eclipse or Mage Knight.


TtR had the benefit of being early to market. There are a LOT of entry-level strategy games out there these days...
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 7:50 pm
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Oh, I'm hardly a weather vane for the winds of BGG. Just look at my ratings of the top 100.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 7:51 pm
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PowerGrid: The First Spark I think has a chance on name recognition alone...it's ratings so far show that it is a decent game. If it can end off hovering around an average of 7.5, I am pretty sure it will get at least 4000 votes which I think would be enough for it to land in the top 100. (I am not a fan of PowerGrid, and actually rather dislike it but I still think the scenario I just mentioned happens).

What are your thoughts on Village? only 10 ratings with an avg of 7.76. With so few ratings I can see it's true initial rating jumping up before it starts to come down. Also, are there any other medium-light to medium workerplacements available this year? This might get bought for lover's of that genre for pure variety's sake and if it holds to be a decent game (7.5 avg) I think it has a chance for top 100. Fresco is sitting at 118 with under 3000 ratings and an avg. of 7.46, If this game, with it's innovative "death" mechanic, can sell that many and get rated a couple avg. points higher, it will make it. (This is one of the few Essen games I am actually seriously looking in to, just to give you all some personal context).

Trajan is getting distributed by Hans im Gluck (I believe), how are they usually for distribution to America?

*edit: Just checked, Trajan is actually distributed by Hutter Trade GmbH, how are they for distribution?
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  • Edited Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:08 pm
  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:05 pm
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Jesse Dean
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Village did not get an Essen release. Additionally I think the game looks pretty mediocre. So I am not considering it at all.

Sometimes they partner with Rio Grande. We'll see what happens.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:09 pm
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Jesse Dean
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garygarison wrote:
Oh, I'm hardly a weather vane for the winds of BGG. Just look at my ratings of the top 100.


So how is you rating Eclipse a 6 relevant to this discussion?
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:10 pm
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Aren't all ratings relevant to where a game eventually sits on the top 100?
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:18 pm
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I think it's fun to look at the games that are being displaced. If you're right, then that's about five games (3-4 certain, then one of the long-shots). Spots 96-100 are currently:

96. Taj Mahal
97. Notre Dame
98. 1830
99. Cyclades
100. A Game of Thrones

In a sense, the new games are shouldering past these old ones because they're better. However, 1830 and AGOT are about to get a face-lift, and Cyclades has an expansion coming, so I wonder if the renewed interest will garner new, high ratings (there may be some selection bias at work, too). Should be interesting to see.

Oh, and speaking of selection bias, what's up with the expansion/retreads in the top 100? Dominion/Intrigue, Imperial/2030, Thunderstone/Dragonspire, Conflict of Heroes x2, Shogun/Wallenstein, War of the Ring/Collector's Edition, Ticket to Ride x3, Railroad Tycoon/Railways of the World: looks like the top 100 is overstated by at least five spots.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:18 pm
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waddball wrote:
100. A Game of Thrones

The new AGoT has a whole new entry though. So if anything, the original is likely to go down, unless they somehow botch the revamp. But from what I've seen, even people who own the original and expansions are lining up for the new one.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:22 pm
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I have been watchign Trajan and it is very stable even with increasing number of ratings. At times it even gained more momentum and at 150ish votes with a 7.9...that looks promising. Ora et Labora is in decline but the Uwe Rosenberg name will go pretty far. based on my observations, I would almost say that Trajan will outperform Ora et Labora eventually. However, as you mentioned, it will depend on US distribution etc. However, from the interviews it sounded as if they were planning to go push Trajan.

The rest of your top picks are also good choices - all with solid or increasing momentum. I have a few doubts about MIL (1049) - the rules are difficult and I almost think it will remain a small treasure. We did play one game so far and it is fun and complex (there is just something very annoying if one of your knights becomes a vassal of some other schmuck lord)

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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:24 pm
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curtc wrote:
The new AGoT has a whole new entry though.

Ah, didn't see that. Add it to the list of selection-biased retreads, then.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:24 pm
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waddball wrote:

97. Notre Dame

In a sense, the new games are shouldering past these old ones because they're better.

Harumph. Last night played the latest euro point salad (thank you for that, Claudio) games Walnut Grove and Helvetia, and then ended the evening with Notre Dame. Striking. In spite of my normal aversion to low-interaction, solo-optimization games, ND was compelling from start to finish.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:29 pm
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garygarison wrote:
Aren't all ratings relevant to where a game eventually sits on the top 100?


Absolutely. But this isn't about individual ratings, it is about where they are going in the future. Your rating, whatever it is, only has a small impact on it compared to the hundreds or thousands it needs to make the Top 100. The impact of it is lessened even more by the fact that your rating profile is very different then that of most BGG users.

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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:31 pm
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You hit everything that I guessed would make it except for Flash Point: Fire Rescue which I had thought would be the type of game that would do pretty well with the BGG crown...on par with Pandemic, however its initial ratings are only at 7.63 so your probably right excluding it. I do think it will at least rise some when the kickstarter copies start arising as many of those will not have rated yet having not played it, but would fall into that early adopters category who are likely to rate it high seeing is how they got in before it was even produced.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:31 pm
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waddball wrote:

Oh, and speaking of selection bias, what's up with the expansion/retreads in the top 100? Dominion/Intrigue, Imperial/2030, Thunderstone/Dragonspire, Conflict of Heroes x2, Shogun/Wallenstein, War of the Ring/Collector's Edition, Ticket to Ride x3, Railroad Tycoon/Railways of the World: looks like the top 100 is overstated by at least five spots.


Indeed. I love Imperial 2030 but it should not have its own place in the rankings.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:31 pm
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Argorius wrote:

The rest of your top picks are also good choices - all with solid or increasing momentum. I have a few doubts about MIL (1049) - the rules are difficult and I almost think it will remain a small treasure. We did play one game so far and it is fun and complex (there is just something very annoying if one of your knights becomes a vassal of some other schmuck lord)


Indeed that is the big thing that I think might hold it back. I just need to find a way to get a copy of my own. ninja
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:33 pm
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garygarison wrote:
Harumph. Last night played the latest euro point salad (thank you for that, Claudio) games Walnut Grove and Helvetia, and then ended the evening with Notre Dame. Striking. In spite of my normal aversion to low-interaction, solo-optimization games, ND was compelling from start to finish.



And neither of these games will make the Top 100 either.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:36 pm
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Die Burgen von Burgund will probably displace one of those spots (96-100) long before this new crop of games gets there.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:41 pm
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Yoren wrote:
You hit everything that I guessed would make it except for Flash Point: Fire Rescue which I had thought would be the type of game that would do pretty well with the BGG crown...on par with Pandemic, however its initial ratings are only at 7.63 so your probably right excluding it. I do think it will at least rise some when the kickstarter copies start arising as many of those will not have rated yet having not played it, but would fall into that early adopters category who are likely to rate it high seeing is how they got in before it was even produced.


While I am very optimistic on Flash Point, I don't think it is the type of game that will rush into the top 100 for a couple of reasons.

First is that it will get a consistent set of low marks from people that don't like cooperative games - don't ask me why but cooperative games seems to suffer from this effect across the board which effectively prevents any fully cooperative game from getting an average rating even close to an 8.

Second - the game is not as puzzly as pandemic, so the mainstream BGG rater will likely rate it below pandemic (unless they factor in the fun, and thematic nature of the game as more of a positive). So ultimately I think the average rating of Flash point will be lower than that of pandemic.

So that means with an average rating of lets say 7.5 (just as The Resistance has), it takes at least 3,000 votes to get in to the top 100 - and ratio of 10+ games sold for every BGG rating to reach those types of numbers - that is 30,000+ copies of the game that need to be sold to have a chance.

That is how The Resistance is sitting at number 113 today, and it is certainly possible with Flash Point, but it will take some time if it happens.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 8:59 pm
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T Worthington wrote:
Yoren wrote:
You hit everything that I guessed would make it except for Flash Point: Fire Rescue which I had thought would be the type of game that would do pretty well with the BGG crown...on par with Pandemic, however its initial ratings are only at 7.63 so your probably right excluding it. I do think it will at least rise some when the kickstarter copies start arising as many of those will not have rated yet having not played it, but would fall into that early adopters category who are likely to rate it high seeing is how they got in before it was even produced.


While I am very optimistic on Flash Point, I don't think it is the type of game that will rush into the top 100 for a couple of reasons.

First is that it will get a consistent set of low marks from people that don't like cooperative games - don't ask me why but cooperative games seems to suffer from this effect across the board which effectively prevents any fully cooperative game from getting an average rating even close to an 8.

Second - the game is not as puzzly as pandemic, so the mainstream BGG rater will likely rate it below pandemic (unless they factor in the fun, and thematic nature of the game as more of a positive). So ultimately I think the average rating of Flash point will be lower than that of pandemic.

So that means with an average rating of lets say 7.5 (just as The Resistance has), it takes at least 3,000 votes to get in to the top 100 - and ratio of 10+ games sold for every BGG rating to reach those types of numbers - that is 30,000+ copies of the game that need to be sold to have a chance.

That is how The Resistance is sitting at number 113 today, and it is certainly possible with Flash Point, but it will take some time if it happens.



Well like Jesse said, part of the fun is pulling for the ones you like, so I'm hoping it makes it
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 9:03 pm
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I think it is important to note that personal tastes filter out so many games here that in any given year a game in the top 1200, even after a full year in the database, is probably of significant interest to a given type of gamers.

Additionally some games take time to grow into their fanbase or at least get distributed widely enough to get a boost in their ratings

Top 10 climbers released in 2010 (as of October 31)

Earth Reborn (1625 spots)
Puzzle Strike (1265)
De Vulgari Eloquentia (1072)
C & C Napoleonics (1071)
Asara (863)
Posiden (756)
High Frontier (699)
Merchants & Marauders (654)
Luna (612)
Julius Caesar (459)

Of those only 2 are in the top 100, but they are clearly well regarded games which all began the year well outside the top 500 and many below 1200.

Great games are spread far below the top 100.

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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 9:26 pm
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Solid article, Jesse, backed with good research.

With respect to your discussion of Hawaii, the only similarity it has to Vikings is that the players build their villages using boards that are similar in form and function to the ones in Vikings. However, the heart of the game is very different from the earlier design. With so little info being released, I understand this is one of the few pieces of data to grab onto, but I figured I'd clear this up.

As for its chances of making the top 100, I'm too biased to even comment, as the designer is a good friend. I'm just thrilled that the early ratings are good enough for it to be included in the discussion!

The only game you didn't mention that I think has a legitimate chance of getting to the list is First Sparks. It's initial rating (7.62) is a bit low, but the Power Grid tie-in, Friese's name recognition, and the positive early reviews could easily make up for it. This is a game that could get a lot more ratings than most of the ones you listed and that's a big factor. I also see that the current standard deviation for its ratings is exceedingly low (0.98); it seems to me that such consistancy would give it a better chance of maintaining its average rating, although that's just an educated guess on my part.

The other game I would have guessed had a good shot is Tournay, but it's initial rating of 7.4 is just too low. Maybe it's a bit too light to score really highly.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 10:00 pm
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Great read Jesse. I really enjoyed your write up.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011 10:42 pm
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I have to believe with as much data as is available that someone could write a heuristic to predict a top 100 game based on the first 100 votes or so.

Bayesian probabilities anyone?
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  • Posted Sat Nov 5, 2011 3:29 am
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The heuristic would have to be able to predict how many ratings the game would eventually receive, Adam. I think it would be hard to cover all the many possible cases.
 
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  • Posted Sat Nov 5, 2011 4:44 am
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Larry Levy wrote:
The heuristic would have to be able to predict how many ratings the game would eventually receive, Adam. I think it would be hard to cover all the many possible cases.


Couldn't a decent forecast of eventual number of ratings be estimated based on information such as: publisher, distribution, designer... (and their respective historical number of ratings)?
 
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  • Edited Sat Nov 5, 2011 4:46 am
  • Posted Sat Nov 5, 2011 4:46 am
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Let's not forget that the top 100 is not a sitting target. Nuremberg is just round the corner and Essen 2012 isn't as far away as you think. There are always a few shooting stars that rocket in, which means the slow climbers will have yet a few more places to go...
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  • Posted Sat Nov 5, 2011 2:05 pm
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Just out of curiosity I did a year by year breakdown of the current BGG top 100 and did a running total of the percentages going back in time over the years...

2011 - 4 games
2010 - 11 games
2009 - 14 games
2008 - 9 games
2007 - 10 games
2006 - 8 games
2005 - 9 games
2004 - 7 games

Games from the last 8 years take up 72% of the BGG top 100

2003 - 3 games
2002 - 4 games
2001 - 0 games (weak year for top boardgames)
2000 - 4 games

Games from the last 12 years take up 83% of the BGG top 100

1999 - 2 games
1998 - 1 game
1997 - 1 game
1996 - 1 game
1995 - 2 games

Games from the last 17 years (Post-Settlers aka the new golden age of gaming) take up 90% of the BGG top 100.

1991 - 1 game
1986 - 2 game
1985 - 1 game
1983 - 1 game
1980 - 1 game
1979 - 1 game
1962 - 1 game
1867 - 1 game
-2200 - 1 game

Only 10% of games in the current BGG top 100 were made pre-1995.

Cult of the new or is it true that 90% of the best games ever made have been produced in the last 17 years?

Over the last 4 years there has been an average of 11 new games from each year making the Top 100... 4 are already on there from 2011 so we can likely expect another 7 or so if that average keeps up.


If I had to pick 7 more games from the year 2011 (including non-Essen releases) that aren't in the top 100 yet, I'd choose:

1 Eclipse - pretty much a cinch to hit high into the top 100... too much across the board enthusiasm for the game for it not to be a smashing success.

2 Star Trek: Fleet Captains - getting solid reviews and it has solid appeal to a fairly broad range of gamers (more so than BSG imo) so I see it getting into the top 100 solidly. Expansions should keep it hot.

3 Dungeons & Dragons: The Legend of Drizzt Board Game - This has that "expansion effect" bias. It's basically going to be bought and rated mainly by people who are predisposed to like the D&D series of games so the rating will stay high longer. It will take a while for the number of ratings to pile up... but slowly it will eventually reach the Top 100.

4 Gears of War: The Board Game - Again some decent crossover appeal and inevitable expansions should keep it interesting for players.

5 Summoner Wars: Master Set - I think this flashy bundled set is also going to benefit from the expansion effect... you are predisposed to like and rate the game well if you drop that chunk of change on this. Again, it will take a while for the # of ratings to mount but this will get into the top 100.

6 Burgen von Burgund (at 111 now so it should be an easy glide to rise 11 more spots). Solid Euro that still hasn't peaked. It may not rise deep into the top 100 but I think it will definitely make it.

7 Yomi - Another slow riser. I think this game will slowly add ratings and creep into the Top 100. It probably won't get very far into that elite group and it will take a long time... maybe a year or more but it will get there.

So out of all the actual "Essen '11 releases" I'm picking that only one will stay in the Top 100... Eclipse.

Games that have a shot at getting there but I'm thinking they won't quite make it (or stay there):

Mage Knight Board Game
Ora et Labora
The Ares Project
Trajan
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  • Posted Mon Nov 7, 2011 11:20 am
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Even if all the project mentioned here will probably reach the top 100 for obvious reasons (famous designers, complex mechanics, advertising, etc), my ranking for this Essen 2011 is:

1) Drum Roll
2) Takenoko
3) Kingdom Builder
4) Burdigala
5) Village
6) Vanuatu
7) Lost Temple
8) Tschak!

I think these are games deep enough, simple and original, without too many unnecessary complexity, playable at every occasion and for every taste.

Unfortunately not always BGG can measures perfectly if a game is better than another, even if it's the starting point for every gamer.

In 2010 I've seen Vinhos beating Grand Cru: gamers has stated that Vinhos has everything a gamer wants, has all that big amount of frills that makes it complex; instead Grand Cru hasn't all those frills, has a linear flow, is original, is challenging, is simple to explain but deep. But the 1st is TOP 100 and the other not ...
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  • Edited Tue Nov 8, 2011 10:29 am
  • Posted Tue Nov 8, 2011 10:28 am
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Darren, why do you think those particular games have a shot but others do not. Particularly, why do you think Mage Knight has less of a shot than Fleet Captains?
 
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  • Posted Tue Nov 8, 2011 2:51 pm
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af7hqs wrote:
Even if all the project mentioned here will probably reach the top 100 for obvious reasons (famous designers, complex mechanics, advertising, etc), my ranking for this Essen 2011 is:

1) Drum Roll
2) Takenoko
3) Kingdom Builder
4) Burdigala
5) Village
6) Vanuatu
7) Lost Temple
8) Tschak!

I think these are games deep enough, simple and original, without too many unnecessary complexity, playable at every occasion and for every taste.

Unfortunately not always BGG can measures perfectly if a game is better than another, even if it's the starting point for every gamer.

In 2010 I've seen Vinhos beating Grand Cru: gamers has stated that Vinhos has everything a gamer wants, has all that big amount of frills that makes it complex; instead Grand Cru hasn't all those frills, has a linear flow, is original, is challenging, is simple to explain but deep. But the 1st is TOP 100 and the other not ...


I am sorry Antonio, but you are not going to get much sympathy for your viewpoint here. The entire focus of this blog is deep, interactive, relatively complex games. There is only one game on your list that I would want to play, and for the most part, I would rather enjoy my other hobbies than play most of the games on the list.

Also, regardless of the relative merits of Vinhos and Grand Cru, Vinhos is not in the BGG Top 100, though it will almost certainly end up there eventually. It is #148.
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  • Posted Tue Nov 8, 2011 2:59 pm
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Quote:
There is only one game on your list that I would want to play,

I assume you're talking Vanuatu. What happened to Drum Roll. I know it's off your buy list, but are you no longer interested in even trying it?
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  • Posted Tue Nov 8, 2011 3:37 pm
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out4blood wrote:
Quote:
There is only one game on your list that I would want to play,

I assume you're talking Vanuatu. What happened to Drum Roll. I know it's off your buy list, but are you no longer interested in even trying it?


In addition to Drum Roll and Vanuatu I would like to try Kingdom Builder. Not so much because I think I will love it (from a rules read it looks like a typical "decent game, too light for me, I rate it a 7") but it's a cinch that someone in my group will pick it up. So to be able to teach would be a nice public service.
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  • Posted Tue Nov 8, 2011 3:44 pm
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I will probably end up playing it at some point (maybe BGG.Con), but at this point I am pretty indifferent to it, yes. Dungeon Petz is pretty much my "Put On A Show" game of choice from Essen 2011.
 
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  • Posted Tue Nov 8, 2011 3:44 pm
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Darren: If you think Die Burgen will make it I can't see why you wouldn't think Trajan would. Die Burgen is almost in the top 100 with around 1000 votes. Trajan should easily get that as (from my understanding) its distribution will be better. Also Trajan looks like a typical Feld game which means many of his fans will pick it up (and like it). On top of this the production of Trajan is supposed to be way better than Die Burgen as well (I just bought Die Burgen and was shocked at how crappy the components are). I fully expect Trajan to easily make top 100.
 
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  • Posted Tue Nov 8, 2011 4:08 pm
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etherton wrote:
Walnut Grove? Co-designer is the designer of Eclipse. Probably a little lighter than you'd like, but more my speed. Granted, I'm pretty interested in Eclipse as well.

-Dave


It will be hard for Walnut Grove to rocket up the charts with all the printing errors, and no fixes being offered in the immediate future. (Though I have been assured that as soon as the next printing is done they will ship out replacement parts)
 
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  • Posted Tue Nov 8, 2011 5:10 pm
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Jimmy Okolica
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I agree with your Likely (Eclipse, Ora et Labora) and Mostly Likely (Dungeon Petz), with the exception of Mage Knight. I'm afraid Mage Knight may be a little too complex/long to make it to the top 100. I also think Trajan has a good shot based on designer name recognition. In addition, I think Power Grid: First Sparks has a good shot for a similar reason. The only game you didn't mention that I'm pulling for is Pret-a-Porter. While I agree it's a long shot, most of the negative ratings seemed to be tied to the graphic quality ofthe first edition, which has hopefully been fixed. If it's as tight an economic game as promised, I think it's got a good shot of hitting the top 200 and a small shot of breaking into the top 100. The biggest issue will be its limited distribution.

So my Essen predictions are:
Ora et Labora (I suspect this will break into the top 50)
Eclipse (I suspect this may break into the top 50)
Dungeon Petz
Power Grid: First Sparks
Trajan (possibly with good distribution)
Quebec (possibly with good distribution)
Pret-a-Porter (possibly with good distribution)


Looking over my list, it looks to me like hitting the Top 100 depends on name recognition, good distribution, and having a good game.
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  • Posted Tue Nov 8, 2011 5:34 pm
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doubtofbuddha wrote:
Darren, why do you think those particular games have a shot but others do not. Particularly, why do you think Mage Knight has less of a shot than Fleet Captains?


Well right off the bat I have to say my picks are certainly not a knock against any of the other games in the list. I'm just trying to use my feel for the initial buzz for these games as well as how the early ratings are stacking up and then trying to project that forward to come up with an idea of which games may hit the top 100.

It's an imperfect art/science trying to gauge which will rise the highest but it's always fun to try.

It's actually a tough challenge to get into the Top 100. There are literally several thousand new game entries in the BGG database each year and of those... not more than a dozen or so will be able to hit the top 100. Some pretty popular games have got to be kicked off that list to be able to get onto it.


I picked the games that I thought would make it and my projected "quota" for the year is ~11.

These are already in:

The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game
A Few Acres of Snow
Mansions of Madness
Thunderstone: Dragonspire

So there are maybe 7 more spots left.

I actually looked at a few stats as well to come up with my projections. Ratings/pageviews/wishlists etc and that list of games in my first post was my best guesstimate of which ones have the best shots at making it.

I'd say unless Eclipse is a complete dud once it's being played often and they find it's broken somehow (and they've done enough playtesting so I'm sure for that not to happen)... it's going to rise VERY high. It is on the wishlist of over 2000 BGG users already which is pretty impressive... so you know once it's in wider distribution it's going to climb the chart very fast. It could hit Top 50 and even higher in a few months.

I could be wrong (often happens) but I don't think Trajan has quite enough spark to hit the top 100. The ratings are good so far but as with many other Euros they'll likely erode slowly and keep the game out of the top 100.

Mage Knight and Ora et Labora certainly have good shots at cracking the top 100. I just had to make a cutoff somewhere and I left those 2 off... we'll see how their ratings are affected once they get played by a wider audience.

I think BGG Con will be a big boost for many games and other will start to fall back to reality when the initial excitement settles down (like every year).

Mage Knight versus Star Trek: Fleet Captains... I think Star Trek has broader appeal and while that alone wont make a game rise up the charts, in this case by all accounts the game is very good so I think it's going to definitely be a big winner. I'm just not as confident with Mage Knight. Yes it has a great designer, but let's see if those ratings slip on a fairy heavy design that I'm not as certain will have quite as much widespread appeal.
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  • Edited Wed Nov 9, 2011 12:35 am
  • Posted Wed Nov 9, 2011 12:33 am
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CarlG wrote:
Darren: If you think Die Burgen will make it I can't see why you wouldn't think Trajan would. Die Burgen is almost in the top 100 with around 1000 votes. Trajan should easily get that as (from my understanding) its distribution will be better. Also Trajan looks like a typical Feld game which means many of his fans will pick it up (and like it). On top of this the production of Trajan is supposed to be way better than Die Burgen as well (I just bought Die Burgen and was shocked at how crappy the components are). I fully expect Trajan to easily make top 100.


It's actually quite difficult for a game to crack the Top 100. I know it seems we see a lot of games jumping up there... but it's still relatively rare compared to the enormous number of releases hitting the market.

In the case of Trajan... I don't think it's going to be a simple trip for it at all. Die Burgen von Burgund already has 1049 ratings "banked" at an average of 7.86. That's very solid... yet it still has a significant climb to get into the top 100. It has to pass 11 games ahead of it to get there... PLUS it's in competition with other fast rising new games like Eclipse, Star Trek: Fleet Captains and Gears of War: The Board Game (among others) which will all be battling for spots in the top 100 as well. It's not going to be an easy trip for Die Burgen either but I think it will squeeze in.

It's like watching a mini-war and there are only 100 spots and not every good new game can get in.

Sure Trajan can get in IF it gets a solid influx of ratings AND the ratings stay high... but it could just as easily see its rating fall, and even if it drops to lets say 7.80 and it gets 1000 ratings, it will need more steam than that to get in.

The first few hundred ratings are usually early adopters predisposed to liking a game and rating it more highly... once you get to 1000 ratings and beyond you are seeing a much wider dispersion of people rating the game and the average rating almost always suffers for it. In the case of Trajan that might not happen but that's the interesting part... seeing which games hold up and which can't.

Look at Antiquity for another example... a very highly regarded game with 1061 ratings averaging 7.88 and it still can't quite crack the Top 100 currently... close at #102 but not quite there. That shows you just how tough it is making it into that elite group.
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  • Posted Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:40 am
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Jon W
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nexttothemoon wrote:
The first few hundred ratings are usually early adopters predisposed to liking a game and rating it more highly... once you get to 1000 ratings and beyond you are seeing a much wider dispersion of people rating the game and the average rating almost always suffers for it. In the case of Trajan that might not happen but that's the interesting part... seeing which games hold up and which can't.

I wonder if getting to 1,000 ratings and beyond is becoming harder. I find myself doubting that the market is big/deep enough for all these "gamers" games, and yet...publishers wouldn't take the risk if the return wasn't there.

Personally, I've found it unsustainable to keep buying and trying every potentially great up-and-comer, mostly for practical reasons (only so many gaming hours available, and what becomes of old favorites?). So something like Trajan, while it's right in my wheelhouse, just isn't unique enough to justify buying. I love Feld's games, but that's kind of the point: I don't feel I've played the others I own enough yet (e.g., the expansion cards for Notre Dame have breathed a lot of life back into that game). Maybe in a year, but then there will be a whole new crop, and Trajan will be so yesterday's news....
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  • Posted Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:13 pm
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Curt Carpenter
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waddball wrote:
I wonder if getting to 1,000 ratings and beyond is becoming harder. I find myself doubting that the market is big/deep enough for all these "gamers" games, and yet...publishers wouldn't take the risk if the return wasn't there.

Many games don't get the ratings because they're not available at the normal price point where people buy most of their games. This is certainly true for Antiquity, at least in the US. If it were $40 at my FOGS, I would have bought. At $100, no thanks. I don't think I'm alone.
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  • Posted Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:19 pm
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Weird Fox
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waddball wrote:
nexttothemoon wrote:
The first few hundred ratings are usually early adopters predisposed to liking a game and rating it more highly... once you get to 1000 ratings and beyond you are seeing a much wider dispersion of people rating the game and the average rating almost always suffers for it. In the case of Trajan that might not happen but that's the interesting part... seeing which games hold up and which can't.

I wonder if getting to 1,000 ratings and beyond is becoming harder. I find myself doubting that the market is big/deep enough for all these "gamers" games, and yet...publishers wouldn't take the risk if the return wasn't there.

Personally, I've found it unsustainable to keep buying and trying every potentially great up-and-comer, mostly for practical reasons (only so many gaming hours available, and what becomes of old favorites?). So something like Trajan, while it's right in my wheelhouse, just isn't unique enough to justify buying. I love Feld's games, but that's kind of the point: I don't feel I've played the others I own enough yet (e.g., the expansion cards for Notre Dame have breathed a lot of life back into that game). Maybe in a year, but then there will be a whole new crop, and Trajan will be so yesterday's news....


I half wonder if, in a year or two, we'll start referring to the BGG Top 200 the way we refer to the Top 100 now. This is only a partial exaggeration.

J
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  • Posted Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:39 pm
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Jesse Dean
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That would not surprise me. In fact that compels me to take a deeper look at the Top 200...
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  • Posted Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:46 pm
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rarevos wrote:

I half wonder if, in a year or two, we'll start referring to the BGG Top 200 the way we refer to the Top 100 now. This is only a partial exaggeration.

J


To a certain extent we already have started. Remember that spate of geeklists earlier in the year? It was "Top 20" outside 200, not 100. The point of those lists were that the Top 200 are such a dominant consensus that picking games from that tier would not be that interesting in terms of discovering new-to-you, if not completely obscure, games. So people are already starting to lump the Top 200 together.
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  • Posted Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:56 pm
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doubtofbuddha wrote:
That would not surprise me. In fact that compels me to take a deeper look at the Top 200...


There are something like 50,000 games in the BGG database. So the Top 100 is really the top .002 percent of games. Being in the Top 200 is still really damn impressive a showing, right? I mean, even if you subscribe to Sturgeon's Law that 90% of anything is crap, you're dealing with 5000 worthy games in the top ten percent of all games, ever, because this database here is pretty thorough. This is obviously all back-of-the-envelope. But really, it's just our base-10 and base-100 obsession that's making the Top 100 seem like a bigger deal than it is.

I guess I liken it to baseball. Say you have a .298 hitter from this past season. Hitting .298 is pretty good, but for some reason, we like the round number of .300 better. So if a guy gets 145 hits in 487 at-bats for a seasonal batting average of .298 (we'll call him "Josh Hamilton"), you know how many extra hits he would have needed to get to .300? Two. Two hits over the course of the season, to result in a .302 average. Two ground balls that just got through the infield, two fly balls that were just out of the reach of an outfielder. Two.

The Top 200 games are hitting .298. That's awesome*. The Top 100 games are hitting .301. That's insignificantly different to me.

J

(* I am a baseball stats nerd, and I appreciate on base percentage more than batting average. This argument is easier to make with batting average, though)
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  • Posted Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:57 pm
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Darren M
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Ya, I'm not even commenting on the "goodness" of the games in the top 100. We all know everyone has their own specific "Top 100" which are personal and subjective anyway.

The Top 100 on BGG are the Top 100 of no one in particular... they are just the top 100 on BGG under the very specific method used to calculate rankings under the BGG system.

All that said, it's just fun to see what it actually takes to crack that list... and yes the rankings here do matter here somewhat, not as much to experienced, individual gamers like us because we like what we like regardless of the ranks... but for publishers/designers it's a great advertisement to have your game crack the Top 100 on the Geek. Those rankings are pretty golden in creating word of mouth and in helping to market not only those games but others associated with that designer/publisher as well.
 
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  • Edited Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:08 am
  • Posted Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:08 am
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Travis Worthington
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nexttothemoon wrote:
but for publishers/designers it's a great advertisement to have your game crack the Top 100 on the Geek. Those rankings are pretty golden in creating word of mouth and in helping to market not only those games but others associated with that designer/publisher as well.


I think this might be true for the games that sky rocket into the top 100, but in general not sure that being in the top 100 is that great of a sales boost for a game. I don't expect that The Resistance will see a noticeable increase in sales when it reaches the top 100.

Top 10, sure - lots of people "discover" BGG and rush out to get something from the top 10.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:40 am
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Darren M
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I read an interesting comment from Mark Walker here:

Comment

I think sometimes we somewhat underestimate the power of the rankings here on BGG and the effect that they have on buying patterns on all of the distribution/retailer/end user levels.

I'm not saying all games that rank in the top 100 are instant successes and will sell tens/hundreds of thousands of extra copies because obviously every case is different. Again, in the case of Antiquity for example, even if it were to crack into the top 100... there simply aren't copies around to distribute and buy so it would likely make very little difference.

In a case like The Resistance though, yes I do think it would have a snowball effect. If it were to get into that elite top 100 group you'd definitely see even more sales as the word of mouth would spread even faster and it would garner more attention from people simply out of curiosity.

Being buried on page XX of games on BGG is much different than being on the first page. That's true of web searches on Google... so why wouldn't that be true of games here on BGG as well.

Curious newbies wandering into the site are obviously going to click and find out about "the best" games by clicking and looking at those highest ranked games and clicking on the Hotness games before digging deeper into more "obscure" games.

It's an interesting discussion/debate. Just how much is BGG shaping the face of boardgaming as opposed to how much is it simply reflecting and showing what the state of the hobby is today?
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  • Posted Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:42 am
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waddball wrote:
Oh, and speaking of selection bias, what's up with the expansion/retreads in the top 100? Dominion/Intrigue, Imperial/2030, Thunderstone/Dragonspire, Conflict of Heroes x2, Shogun/Wallenstein, War of the Ring/Collector's Edition, Ticket to Ride x3, Railroad Tycoon/Railways of the World: looks like the top 100 is overstated by at least five spots.


Yeah, I'm a little bothered by that as well. Especially the standalone expansions like Dominion: Intrigue and Thunderstone: Dragonspire. In my opinion they should be filtered out like other expansions.

All the Carcassonne spin-offs also take up a couple of spots in the top 200.
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  • Edited Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:51 pm
  • Posted Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:50 pm
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