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A Gnome's Ponderings

I'm a gamer. I love me some games and I like to ramble about games and gaming. So, more than anything else, this blog is a place for me to keep track of my ramblings. If anyone finds this helpful or even (good heavens) insightful, so much the better.
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When attitude is part of the game balance

Lowell Kempf
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I have noticed that there are some games where the style of play can become a critical part of whether or not a game actually works. I don’t know if that is a flaw or not, to be honest. However, I have noticed that some games can fall flat if the players don’t understand the unspoken way that the game should be played.

I hate to use the phrase “way it should be played” since different groups have different needs and styles of play. I have seen some groups play Elfenland as a congenial negotiation game and other games play it as a hate-fest and everyone had fun in both cases. Most of the time, I like to limit that a game “should be played” by the rules and without cheating.

However, there are some games where I have seen play style break a game down. In almost all of those cases, it was an example of people avoiding confrontation and being nice to each other. Some games can still be competitive and interesting when people do that. Other games, though, fall apart.

Architekton by Michael Schacht is a game that turned out to be like that. It’s a tile laying game where being forced to place one of your little wooden houses in a mismatched spot will cost you a point chip. If someone runs out of point chips, the game ends immediately and the other guy wins.

When I got the game, I played it with gaming buddies and the games were vicious little struggles with both of us doing everything we could to make sure the other guy lost every point we could squeeze out of them. Good clean fun. We didn’t think it was the greatest game ever but we had fun hammering away at each other.

Then, a married friend of mine complained how boring it was and how it didn’t come with enough point chips. I was absolutely befuddled about that until I realized that he and his wife must have been doing nothing at all to interfere with each other! If they were going to be doing that, than the game would have the tension of over cooked noodles!

That ruled out me ever giving them a war game for Christmas I am lucky that the woman I will be marrying thrives on competition and gets irritated if I go easy on her.

Obviously, there are some whole genres of games that are not going to work if you are going to do your best not to do anything to even indirectly attack other players. War Games, for instance, are right out. I mean, if you play Advanced Squad Leader that way, World War II is going to end early with folk dancing and picnics.

However, a number of euro-style family games can at least kind of work if the players focus on their own goals and don’t try to hurt each other. Carcassonne doesn’t require you to make aggressive moves to play. If you end up with no attack cards in the layout, Dominion is a peaceful affair.

Still, there are some seemingly peaceful games, like Architekton that surprisingly fall apart when people are sweet and gentle and kind.

One of the most extreme examples I have come across is the seemingly innocent Cape Horn. Apart from a name that can cause snickers and hopeful looks in the locker room, it’s just a game about racing around South America on sailing ships. You don’t get cannons to fire at each other and you can’t ram other ships so how nasty can it be?

Plenty nasty. It is a tile laying game that is not like any other tile laying game I’ve ever seen. The board is a grid and the tiles are wind markers. Your piece can never be on an empty space. It always has to be on a wind marker. And wind markers tell you exactly how far you will go on your next move and what direction you will have to take. There’s some flexibility but you end up completely telegraphing your move.

What does that mean? It means that it is other players’ Aldi-given duty to mess with your path as much as possible devil

Okay, you have to make sure that you race your ship along as well. It’s not all about hurting the other guy. However, since the game is literally making a path of tiles to follow, if no one mucks with anyone else’s path, the game quickly and easily tends to turn into a runaway leader situation.

When Cape Horn is played with teeth, it is a tense, fun game. When played meek, it’s boring.

As I commented before, different groups are going to have different mind sets and expectations. A lot of games, particular Euro-family games, can be fun and enjoyable without taking a no-prisoners, winner-take-all, let-the-bodies-hit-the-floor attitude. Heck, cooperatives have become their own sub-genre.

However, there are some games where going hammer and thong at each other is intrinsic to the balance of the game.
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Subscribe sub options Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:55 pm
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Russ Williams
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Another example not on the nice/aggressive spectrum but a harder to classify spectrum is the often cited Container, where new players sometimes complain of the economy having somehow collapsed so that nobody had money and it dragged on unenjoyably long so that they felt the game "broke" or didn't work because of their decisions, e.g. in the recent thread Not sure if I would play it again...... (FWIW, I have played Container 8 times and every time loved it and never had this problem of communal stagnation.)
 
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  • Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:02 pm
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Lowell Kempf
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russ wrote:
Another example not on the nice/aggressive spectrum but a harder to classify spectrum is the often cited Container, where new players sometimes complain of the economy having somehow collapsed so that nobody had money and it dragged on unenjoyably long so that they felt the game "broke" or didn't work because of their decisions, e.g. in the recent thread Not sure if I would play it again...... (FWIW, I have played Container 8 times and every time loved it and never had this problem of communal stagnation.)


Curiously enough, a game that I had the opposite problem with was Dragon Delta. We become so focussed on destroying the other player's paths or using dragon cards to block their moves that no one came close to crossing the board until we were all too bored to keep blocking.
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  • Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:38 pm
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Joel K
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Quote:
hammer and thong

!!!

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  • Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:42 pm
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Tim Mierz
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I've only played Gloria Mundi once, but I wonder if it would fit in this category. On your turn, you can build a building in one of three types (and occasionally build another), and then the goth moves. He destroys one building from each player of a given type, unless the player pays a resource to delay him. In that case, he'll destroy the delayed one plus a new one the following turn, unless that player pays the goth tribute. And so on. So over the course of the game he destroys one building per player per turn, although it may go in spurts depending on the players' willingness to pay tribute. Which is not far above the average rate of building. This means that players do not get to keep many buildings at all. In the one game that I played of Gloria Mundi, we didn't pay tribute very much during most of the game, and so we kept being beaten down and couldn't progress very much. However, eventually we realized that if each of us made some self-sacrifice, we would've all had more time to build up and have ways to mitigate the goth's destruction. I don't think I'd call the way we experienced it "broken," but very strange and counter to my expectations.
 
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  • Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:59 pm
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Patrick Carroll
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I've never played Hellas, but I've read that it suffers if players aren't reasonably aggressive in certain ways. And it never became that popular because of that, though fans insist that it's a great game.

The above blog post reminds me of a game of Civilization I played years ago. About three-quarters of the way into the game, I saw that my wife, as Egypt, had a decisive lead. I usually don't strategize that much in a social game, but this time I asked myself what might work to keep her from running away with the win.

I don't like trading games much, so I'd been playing Civ as if it were a simple wargame which incidentally had trading rounds. But at that moment, I realized that trading was key to that game's strategy. So, I suggested aloud that we lagging players impose a trade boycott on Egypt.

Veteran players will probably shrug at that, as it's no doubt a very common thing to do in such games. But I was playing with casual gamers who were enjoying Civ as just an escape--a little venture into make-believe. And they couldn't believe I'd ever suggest something so despicable. Especially if it would adversely affect my own wife's game position. So, they all looked askance at me and pretended not to hear.

I tried to explain how the game worked and what the situation was, but it was clear my words were falling on deaf ears. So I just shut up. Everybody went on trading with Egypt (including me, probably, since I just didn't care at that point), and my wife won a decisive victory.

So yeah--attitude definitely plays a big role in how a game goes.
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  • Edited Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:09 pm
  • Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:03 pm
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Patrick Carroll wrote:
I've never played Hellenes: Campaigns of the Peloponnesian War, but I've read that it suffers if players aren't reasonably aggressive in certain ways.

Well, it is a wargame. Depending on the specific scenario, at least one person needs to attack or they're going to lose...
 
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  • Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:06 pm
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Patrick Carroll
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russ wrote:
Patrick Carroll wrote:
I've never played Hellenes: Campaigns of the Peloponnesian War, but I've read that it suffers if players aren't reasonably aggressive in certain ways.

Well, it is a wargame. Depending on the specific scenario, at least one person needs to attack or they're going to lose...

Oops! You beat me to my edit. I meant to say Hellas.
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  • Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:10 pm
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To what extent then might we consider on the one hand games that are more susceptible to attitudes versus games that are less susceptible to attitudes?

And particularly from a game publisher's point of view (different than a game designer), might more success come to a game that is designed to garner high ratings from a wide swath of gamer types and predilections versus a game that garners polarizing views (love it or hate it) from certain types of gamers with definite predilections of play style?
 
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  • Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:17 pm
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blindspot wrote:
To what extent then might we consider on the one hand games that are more susceptible to attitudes versus games that are less susceptible to attitudes?

Even chess depends on players' attitudes. Two players could just move their knights back and forth for hours, then complain that nothing ever happens in that game.

Checkers, in contrast, ends up working in spite of even such extreme attitudes. You must move, you must jump; and before any piece gets kinged, all the pieces move irretrievably forward into danger.
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  • Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:45 pm
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Lowell Kempf
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One element that definitely affects how much players can potentially derail a game is how much the game drives its own endgame.
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  • Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:40 pm
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Patrick Carroll wrote:
russ wrote:
Patrick Carroll wrote:
I've never played Hellenes: Campaigns of the Peloponnesian War, but I've read that it suffers if players aren't reasonably aggressive in certain ways.

Well, it is a wargame. Depending on the specific scenario, at least one person needs to attack or they're going to lose...

Oops! You beat me to my edit. I meant to say Hellas.

Haha, yes, I've mixed those 2 titles before as well!

In Hellas, it's true that if nobody voyages to discover more tiles, and they only attack back and forth stealing each other's existing tiles back and forth, then the game will never end.

Kind of analogous to your chess example (players could just move knights around and never make progress toward checkmate).

For a long time I've been conscious of an "advantage" (depending on one's point of view) of placement games (e.g. Blokus, Ingenious, etc) that have guaranteed termination versus movement games (e.g. Chess) which could in principle go on indefinitely, or a very long time. Some movement games address this by forcing progress, typically by letting pieces only move forward (e.g. Breakthrough, or Checkers until people get promoted pieces, then it could theoretically degenerate into non-progressing moving around again...)
 
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  • Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:00 pm
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russ wrote:
Patrick Carroll wrote:
russ wrote:
Patrick Carroll wrote:
I've never played Hellenes: Campaigns of the Peloponnesian War, but I've read that it suffers if players aren't reasonably aggressive in certain ways.

Well, it is a wargame. Depending on the specific scenario, at least one person needs to attack or they're going to lose...

Oops! You beat me to my edit. I meant to say Hellas.

Haha, yes, I've mixed those 2 titles before as well!

In Hellas, it's true that if nobody voyages to discover more tiles, and they only attack back and forth stealing each other's existing tiles back and forth, then the game will never end.

Kind of analogous to your chess example (players could just move knights around and never make progress toward checkmate).

For a long time I've been conscious of an "advantage" (depending on one's point of view) of placement games (e.g. Blokus, Ingenious, etc) that have guaranteed termination versus movement games (e.g. Chess) which could in principle go on indefinitely, or a very long time. Some movement games address this by forcing progress, typically by letting pieces only move forward (e.g. Breakthrough, or Checkers until people get promoted pieces, then it could theoretically degenerate into non-progressing moving around again...)


But the chess example is a little extreme, no? I mean, sure, theoretically you could do as described. But you'd still run into the 50-move rule. And who would actually play that way in real life?

How about games that combine movement/placement like Amazons? (have to plug my favorite game). Game guaranteed to end!
 
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  • Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:19 pm
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cannoneer wrote:
But the chess example is a little extreme, no? I mean, sure, theoretically you could do as described. But you'd still run into the 50-move rule. And who would actually play that way in real life?

Agreed that typically it's not a problem in chess (though I've had a few games where the 50-move rule became relevant - partly due to my own incompetence in knowing how to chase down and mate a king in a sparse endgame situation - but then that's the partly point of this example I guess, i.e. that player inexperience can cause it to drag on).

Quote:
How about games that combine movement/placement like Amazons? (have to plug my favorite game). Game guaranteed to end!

Yes! Basically if the game has some well-founded measure (in the formal mathematical sense) that continually decreases (e.g. number of empty spaces in the case of Amazons, sum of distances of all pieces to the enemy home row in the case of Breakthrough, number of pieces players still have to place in the case of Blokus and many other placement games, etc), then that is a "nice property" that guarantees termination.

But such games are not to everyone's taste: some like open-ended movement freedom with the concomitant risk of non-termination (or some tacked on "50-move rule"), e.g. in Chess, Coerceo, Martian Chess, etc.
 
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  • Edited Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:40 pm
  • Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:39 pm
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Amazons gives you the best of both worlds, of course.

But not everyone agrees with me (they are idiots). Ha ha!
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  • Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:10 pm
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Patrick Carroll
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cannoneer wrote:
Amazons gives you the best of both worlds, of course.

But not everyone agrees with me (they are idiots). Ha ha!

That's because the game isn't old enough. Give it another hundred years or so to ripen.
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  • Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:53 pm
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Wargames don't tend to have this problem, in my experience, because the players almost always come into the game with the expectation of combat. That's the main thing going on in a wargame, hence the name. However, multiplayer games, especially Euros, have wildly varying levels of nastiness.
 
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  • Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:38 pm
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For me a game this happens in is Hera and Zeus. If you're too friendly the stacks get way too big and the game degenerates to pegasusin' the game away. I like attacking a lot and have won a few times due to that. I don't feel like the stall strategy everyone mentions for the game, where the game ends due to not being able to draw cards or use their actions happens in the games I play. This game is ruined by stalling though.
 
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  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:35 pm
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Roads & Boats is a game that can swing wildly from "peaceful" to "yo' mamma" and works very well either way.

The game has a modular board (one that looks very similar to that of Settlers of Catan) made up of hexagons that produce resources and goods depending upon which buildings are erected on them. You can make the board quite large, which makes it easy to play a peaceful game where opponents try to be more efficient than one another without really competing very strenuously at all.

If you build the board smaller, or limit the number of spaces where a particular resource (usually gold) can be produced, competition for that limited resource can get pretty heated.

The game generally takes longer to play when you get more competitive, but it can be a lot of fun either way...
 
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  • Posted Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:24 am
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