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News from BGG.CON 2011: Escape from Queen Games, Article 27 from Stronghold & a Merchant of Venus Update

W. Eric Martin
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Have I played any games at BGG.CON 2011, which runs to Sunday, November 20? Yes, I have – Taluva twice with friend and old gaming buddy Evil Bob.

But you probably want to hear about new stuff, right? Kevin Nesbitt from Stronghold Games dropped word of a new release coming in 2012 from designer Dan Baden. Here's the game description for Article 27: The UN Security Council Game from the listing that I just created in the database:

Quote:
Article 27: The UN Security Council Game gets its title from – yes, you guessed it – Article 27 of the United Nations Charter, which includes these two provisions:

1. Each member of the Security Council shall have one vote.
2. Decisions of the Security Council on procedural matters shall be made by an affirmative vote of nine members.

In this negotiation game, each player represents one member of the UN Security Council and will both present and be presented with different proposals.

In each round, one player acts as the UN Secretary General, presents a proposal to the Council and presides over a negotiation period that lasts no more than five minutes. The proposal will affect five issues – military, currency, etc. – in various ways, and each player has a secret document for the round that tells him how a change in each issue will affect him. All players openly negotiate on what they need in terms of points and bribes in order to vote for that proposal.

After at most five minutes, the Secretary General closes negotiations by banging his wooden gavel, then players vote yes or no on the proposal. Any "no" vote kills the proposal, as in the United Nation's actual Security Council – but vetoing a proposal costs a player points, so he might prefer to look for deals that will enable him to say "yes". The Secretary General scores a bonus when his proposal succeeds, so he and others who will benefit might be willing to negotiate to make the proposal sweet for all.

After each player has served as Secretary General once (twice in a three-player game), each player scores based on bribe money on hand, points scored from proposal cards, and how well the player fulfilled the secret agenda card he received at the start of the game.

Nesbitt says that one way to think of this game is similar to Sid Sackson's I'm the Boss!, but without any of the power cards that put players in uneven positions of power. Instead everyone must rely on their own powers of persuasion to bend others to see things their way. "In my opinion, this is the best pure negotiation game I've ever played," says Nesbitt.

Nesbitt also gave me an update on the Merchant of Venus situation regarding efforts by both Stronghold Games and Fantasy Flight Games to bring the title to market again, with Stronghold aiming to reprint the Richard Hamblen design in pretty much its original form and FFG intending to "[kick] it into hyperdrive with several new enhancements", as noted on the game page on the FFG website. (See this BGG News item for more details.)

Nesbitt acknowledges that Fantasy Flight has been gracious in its dealings with Stronghold to resolve this issue, while also noting that FFG essentially has no say in the final resolution since Stronghold must negotiate with Hasbro, which licensed Merchant of Venus to FFG. "We're still hopeful for some kind of resolution," he says, mentioning that he expects the issue to be settled by the end of 2011. "Any agreement we hope to get depends on finding something to make us all happy." Given that FFG has announced a March 2012 release date for its version of MoV while Stronghold had been aiming for a Q2 2012 release, he doesn't expect a delay in the release one way or the other.

One thing that is clear, however, is that "while there is room in theory for two versions of the game, that doesn't make good business sense", says Nesbitt, so don't expect to see competing versions of the design on game store shelves.

Frank Thyben from Queen Games is demoing a few 2012 releases at BGG.CON, one of which is by Norwegian designer Kristian Amundsen Østby. The working title is Escape: The Curse of the Mayan Temple, and Queen hopes to present the game formally at the Nuremberg toy fair in February 2012. Here's a rundown of the game from the listing I created for the BGG database:

Quote:
Escape: The Curse of the Mayan Temple, which is possibly not the design's final title, is a cooperative game in which players must escape (yes...) from a temple (yes...) before the temple collapses and kills one or more explorers, thereby causing everyone to lose.

The initial game board consists of a row of three square tiles, each showing a combination of two symbols, say, two feet or one foot and one blue power symbol in one corner of the tile. All of the explorers start in the center tile – the safe room – and each player starts with a hand of five dice. Each die has five symbols:

• A wound – this die is set aside when rolled, indicating the player has had an accident while exploring the temple.
• A healing symbol – each such symbol heals two wounds, either your own or those of another explorer in the same room or a combination of both.
• A red or blue power symbol – these are used to enter rooms, access treasure, or (most importantly of all) discover special gems.
• A foot, which appears twice on the die – you need feet to move from room to room; feets, don't fail me now!

Escape is played in real-time, with all players rolling dice and taking actions simultaneously. You must roll the right symbols to enter a room, and if you're at an open doorway, you can roll to reveal the next tile in the stack and add it to that doorway. Some rooms contain treasure, and when you reveal such a room, you place a face-down treasure chest on the tile. Roll the symbols on that chest tile, and you claim the treasure for use later: a key lets you teleport anywhere, a path lets you connect two rooms that otherwise have no door between them, and a medic kit heals all players instantly (putting black dice back into play).

Some rooms contain combinations of red and blue symbols, and if you (possibly working with other players in the same room) roll enough red or blue symbols, you "discover" special gems, moving them from a supply card off the game board onto that tile.

The real-time aspect is enforced by a soundtrack to be played during the game. At certain points, a countdown starts, and if players aren't back in the safe room when time is up, they lose one of their dice.

Once the exit tile is revealed, players can attempt to escape the temple by moving to that tile, then rolling a number of blue dice equal to the special gems that ''haven't'' been removed from the supply card. Thus, the more gems you find, the easier it is to escape the temple. When a player escapes, he gives one die to a player of his choice. If all players escape before the third countdown, everyone wins; if not, everyone loses, no matter how many players did escape.

The game adjusts to different player counts by starting with varying number of supply gems. In addition, in the advanced version of the game, some tiles "curse" players by forcing them to place one hand on their head, keep mute during play, or otherwise do what you wouldn't want to do while escaping a temple!

Holy smokes, that's a long description – and I didn't even get to play the game! It sounds like a late night blast, but Frank was on an even-later night than me since he was still on German time and it was effectively 5 a.m. for him. Next time!
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Subscribe sub options Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:21 am
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Alysa
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I hope Stronghold is going to be the one who is eventually publishing Merchants of Venus...

I like FFG but if they do a remake they have a knack for, ehhmm, overdoing it which does not always turn out so well...
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  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:45 am
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Rich P
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Great news for those of us long awaiting a game featuring Kofi Annan.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:46 am
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Frank La Terra
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Quote:

Nesbitt acknowledges that Fantasy Flight has been gracious in its dealings with Stronghold to resolve this issue, while also noting that FFG essentially has no say in the final resolution since Stronghold must negotiate with Hasbro, which licensed Merchant of Venus to FFG.


Umm, what?
So FFG don't have any say, but stronghold do? Right...
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  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:23 pm
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Bruce Murphy
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Mr Skeletor wrote:
Quote:

Nesbitt acknowledges that Fantasy Flight has been gracious in its dealings with Stronghold to resolve this issue, while also noting that FFG essentially has no say in the final resolution since Stronghold must negotiate with Hasbro, which licensed Merchant of Venus to FFG.


Umm, what?
So FFG don't have any say, but stronghold do? Right...


The question of whether Hasbro still have rights to the game to licence it is between Hasbro and the designer/people who licensed the game from the designer. I imagine FFG acted in good faith.

As a data point, I spoke to another designer two years ago who found that Hasbro had been aggressively asserting ownership over their game design when queried by publishers interested in doing a reprint despite a) the game being long out of print and b) a claw-back clause in the contract whereby the rights reverted to the designer if it was left unpublished for an extended period of time.

So, a design that Hasbro no longer controlled rights for that they presumably hadn't noticed.

I have no information about Merchant of Venus, but I was struck by the similarities of the two situations.

B>
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  • Edited Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:47 pm
  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:46 pm
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Ethan Nicholas
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Mr Skeletor wrote:
Umm, what?
So FFG don't have any say, but stronghold do? Right...

That sounds very much like a confirmation that Hasbro, and not the designer, is the true rights holder of the game. And if that is indeed the case, then FFG's contract with Hasbro is valid and Stronghold's is meaningless, which is why they are currently talking to Hasbro and saying (correctly) that FFG has no say in the matter.

Sucks for Stronghold, of course, but seems like it should have been obvious from reading over the original agreement between the designer and Hasbro who was the current rights holder.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:49 pm
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dragonnyxx wrote:
That sounds very much like a confirmation that Hasbro, and not the designer, is the true rights holder of the game.

No. It sounds like FFG has been talking with Stronghold, but, in the end since Hasbro has the claim on the game, and not FFG, it is Hasbro that Stronghold must negotiate with directly. FFG is not the ultimate (claimed) rights holder.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:32 pm
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Aenea wrote:
I hope Stronghold is going to be the one who is eventually publishing Merchants of Venus...

I like FFG but if they do a remake they have a knack for, ehhmm, overdoing it which does not always turn out so well...



+1000.

However, I have to say they were quite...reserved (for them) in their Britannia remake, but I think the main reason for that is that Lewis Pulsipher was heavily involved in the remake so didn't let FFG slide off the rails too far.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:42 pm
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woodnoggin wrote:
Great news for those of us long awaiting a game featuring Kofi Annan.


Don't forget Boutros Boutros-Ghali!
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  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:47 pm
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W. Eric Martin
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tckoppang wrote:
dragonnyxx wrote:
That sounds very much like a confirmation that Hasbro, and not the designer, is the true rights holder of the game.

No. It sounds like FFG has been talking with Stronghold, but, in the end since Hasbro has the claim on the game, and not FFG, it is Hasbro that Stronghold must negotiate with directly. FFG is not the ultimate (claimed) rights holder.

Tim has it right. Nesbitt said that questions to Fantasy Flight would essentially be forwarded to Hasbro, so Stronghold is now dealing directly with Hasbro since that's where the publishing rights conflict lies.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:58 pm
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I'm glad you were able to find evil old Bob in the mass of gamers (say HI should you see him again). Be sure to try Trajan, Vanuatu, and Nefarious while you are there. Thanks for the reports!

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  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:10 pm
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So, FFG will "NexusOps-ize" it and change it, where Stronghold will be true to the source. Wonder if it's going to be called "Merchants of Metacol" by the time it's all done....

I'm all in for Stronghold on this one. FFG's good, but they seem to have a penchant for removing the unique aspects of original games in order to make it "theirs". We'll see how they do Dune/REX and Wiz-War. Maybe I'll be proven wrong.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:43 pm
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superflypete wrote:
So, FFG will "NexusOps-ize" it and change it, where Stronghold will be true to the source. Wonder if it's going to be called "Merchants of Metacol" by the time it's all done....

I'm all in for Stronghold on this one. FFG's good, but they seem to have a penchant for removing the unique aspects of original games in order to make it "theirs". We'll see how they do Dune/REX and Wiz-War. Maybe I'll be proven wrong.


If you mean "NexusOps-ize" you mean deliver the game with the original ruleset AND leave options for new stuff and Stronghold just pretty much takes a game rulebook to the photocopier?

I've never played the origina MoV, but FFGs Cosmic remake is amazing. Their complete redo of Arkham created a modern classic. Direct remakes aren't always the best idea. Titan being a good example.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:36 pm
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Kaleljorson7 wrote:
superflypete wrote:
So, FFG will "NexusOps-ize" it and change it, where Stronghold will be true to the source. Wonder if it's going to be called "Merchants of Metacol" by the time it's all done....

I'm all in for Stronghold on this one. FFG's good, but they seem to have a penchant for removing the unique aspects of original games in order to make it "theirs". We'll see how they do Dune/REX and Wiz-War. Maybe I'll be proven wrong.


If you mean "NexusOps-ize" you mean deliver the game with the original ruleset AND leave options for new stuff and Stronghold just pretty much takes a game rulebook to the photocopier?

I've never played the origina MoV, but FFGs Cosmic remake is amazing. Their complete redo of Arkham created a modern classic. Direct remakes aren't always the best idea. Titan being a good example.


A minor note, but FFG is cutting away two alien races that were in the base box of the original.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:46 pm
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Kaleljorson7 wrote:
If you mean "NexusOps-ize" you mean deliver the game with the original ruleset AND leave options for new stuff and Stronghold just pretty much takes a game rulebook to the photocopier?

I've never played the origina MoV, but FFGs Cosmic remake is amazing. Their complete redo of Arkham created a modern classic. Direct remakes aren't always the best idea. Titan being a good example.


Thanks for saving me a few minutes and refuting all this anti-FFG FUD so clearly. I love how FFG is accused of ruining so many games, but only rarely are these games mentioned.

I also find this especially humorous since a designer diary for the classic Outpost was recently printed, detailing all the wonderful changes being made to that game by Stronghold.

This is an unfortunate situation for both FFG and Stronghold, and even more unfortunate that partisans seem to think the solution is to grab pitchforks and stalk out to Castle Fantasy Flight.

They are both great companies, run by honest folks.
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  • Edited Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:01 pm
  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:00 pm
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superflypete wrote:
I'm all in for Stronghold on this one. FFG's good, but they seem to have a penchant for removing the unique aspects of original games in order to make it "theirs".

I would also rather see Stronghold get it. But I do have to say I'm happy with the way FFG handled Nexus Ops. They segmented their major changes as variants. They also improved the miniatures for the game -- giving them more detail and no annoying transparency.

I am absolutely NOT happy with the fact that FFG is crippling the MoV gameplay down to 4 players, presumably to sell a "5 and 6 player expansion" later on.
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  • Edited Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:13 pm
  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:13 pm
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cbs42 wrote:
superflypete wrote:
I'm all in for Stronghold on this one. FFG's good, but they seem to have a penchant for removing the unique aspects of original games in order to make it "theirs".

I would also rather see Stronghold get it. But I do have to say I'm happy with the way FFG handled Nexus Ops. They segmented their major changes as variants. They also improved the miniatures for the game -- giving them more detail and no annoying transparency.

I am absolutely NOT happy with the fact that FFG is crippling the MoV gameplay down to 4 players, presumably to sell a "5 and 6 player expansion" later on.


Or they could be doing it as 4 because the game did not handle 5-6 well (which is the case). No need to cast aspersions on FFG there.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:28 pm
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Personally, I don't care one way or the other who gets to publish it. I never played the original, only became aware of it because of this situation, and will gladly play either version from either company
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  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:00 pm
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Congrats to Dan Baden on getting "Article 27: The UN Security Council Game" published! I played the prototype back in April and had a blast.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:18 pm
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This is quite timely, as I just got to visit the UN earlier this week!
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  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:35 pm
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I want that Escape game immediately. Sounds amazing.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:15 pm
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Joelist wrote:
Or they could be doing it as 4 because the game did not handle 5-6 well (which is the case). No need to cast aspersions on FFG there.

Of the vote respondents on the "Plays Best With" poll for Merchant of Venus, about 60% rated the 5 player game as a "Recommended" or "Best" number of players. While that's not an overwhelming majority, those numbers don't support your claim that it doesn't play well with 5 players.

Besides, I think it's fair to state that FFG isn't above generating Fame and Fortune by adding players in an expansion that should have been supported in the base game.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:27 pm
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superflypete wrote:
So, FFG will "NexusOps-ize" it and change it,...


I think you mean NexusOpilize. Rolls off the tongue much nicer.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:38 pm
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thepackrat wrote:
As a data point, I spoke to another designer two years ago who found that Hasbro had been aggressively asserting ownership over their game design when queried by publishers interested in doing a reprint despite a) the game being long out of print and b) a claw-back clause in the contract whereby the rights reverted to the designer if it was left unpublished for an extended period of time.

As another data point, book publishers have been "publishing" books by licensing them to print-on-demand publishers instead of actually going to the trouble of traditional printing. They can tie up the book rights indefinitely. We may be heading for a similar situation with game rights.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:59 pm
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Re: Security Council game

Can't wait to play the US so I can ruin the game with my veto power! Woop! What an exciting sounding game... read... not really.



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  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:35 pm
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Axelfudge wrote:
Re: Security Council game

Can't wait to play the US so I can ruin the game with my veto power! Woop! What an exciting sounding game... read... not really.





Oooh, can I play as Russia? That way we both get vetoes, insuring that nothing important ever gets done!
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  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:12 pm
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Frank La Terra
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Hi everyone!

I am typical_Bgg_user_123. Nice to meet you all.

I really hope Stronghold win because I they wont change the game! I can't believe how disrespectful it is to do that. I want to play the game as the designer originally intended it!

What's that? Have I already played the original MoV? Oh goodness no, I wouldn't play that old thing, it's more than 6 months old.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:33 pm
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I'm first in line for the Article 27 game. I LOVE negotiations with time limits. Dragon's Gold and I'm the Boss! are two of my favorite games. The upcoming Masters of Commerce looks like another great addition to the genre.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:44 pm
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Walter Hunt
United States
Bellingham
Massachusetts
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DangerMouse wrote:

Congrats to Dan Baden on getting "Article 27: The UN Security Council Game" published! I played the prototype back in April and had a blast.


Agree! I'm reserving judgment on the MoV release, but I'm very excited for Dan - played in April also; it's a tremendously fun game, and I'm pleased to see it picked up.
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  • Posted Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:06 am
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Guido Van Horn
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Othello
Washington
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DangerMouse wrote:

Congrats to Dan Baden on getting "Article 27: The UN Security Council Game" published! I played the prototype back in April and had a blast.


I'm super curious about this game, I've been tryin to find games about the political process for some research and this one seems to have a unique edge to it.
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  • Posted Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:19 am
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tom moughan
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Rochester
New York
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ahh....I love the smell of a stack of sketchily placed animals in the morning!
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got Taluva played - check! Already a good con no matter what else happens!

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  • Posted Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:26 pm
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Mr Skeletor wrote:
Hi everyone!

I am typical_Bgg_user_123. Nice to meet you all.

I really hope Stronghold win because I they wont change the game! I can't believe how disrespectful it is to do that. I want to play the game as the designer originally intended it!

What's that? Have I already played the original MoV? Oh goodness no, I wouldn't play that old thing, it's more than 6 months old.

I've played the original and I expect FFG to cut elements from their version so that they can sell it as a base game plus expansion, as they usually do. Dunno why you'd have to play the original to notice that trend, but there you go.

If there's no expansion with 5 and 6 player components in it, then you'll be right.
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  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:12 am
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Zé Mário
Portugal
Senhora da Hora
Matosinhos
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I played the original, it's ok, and I think an update on the mechanics could really make it a better game.
 
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  • Posted Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:52 am
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Phil
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Falmouth
Maine
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Skyrim = Amazing!!!
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Bob is ruthless in Taluva.
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  • Posted Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:17 pm
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W. Eric Martin
United States
Apex
North Carolina
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Quarashi wrote:
Bob is ruthless in Taluva.

Bob is 0-2 against me in Taluva, although I nipped him in one game by a single turn, so I guess I have even less ruth than he does.
 
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  • Posted Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:40 pm
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