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On Gamer's Games

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My BGG.Con 2011

Jesse Dean
United States
Orlando
Florida
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BGG.Con 2011 is over and, as usual, it was a great experience with tons of fond memories and lovely games. The 2011 crop was strong and I was largely impressed with what I played though, as usual, there were a few games that I found to be less interesting. My goal for this year was to try out a bunch of games on the first couple of days, identify my favorites, and then play them a lot over the course of the next couple of days. I largely succeeded, and was able to play a reasonably large number of games with my two favorites of the convention, Mage Knight the Board Game and Ora et Labora, getting the bulk of my plays.
 
 
Kingdom Builder – 9 plays
I intended to play in the Kingdom Builder tournament and, in preparation for said tournament,  I purchased a copy of the game and played it a bit on the Sunday before the convention. I learned two things from this: The game, while not great, was better than I expected and that I was actually pretty bad at it. So my initial enthusiasm for winning the Essen trip was deflated and I was not sure I was going to even compete. I ended up doing so, and played the game at the convention nine times, but lost a close match in the second round.
 
The game itself is fairly simple, with a fairly strong spatial element and variable goals and powers to mix things up between games. It is enjoyable, but I would prefer to play Hansa Teutonica or Race For the Galaxy in the same general time frame . I may end up selling my copy to someone else in my group, but there are enough people who like it that mostly just game with me, that I may hold on to it despite my relative indifference.
 
Rating: 6
 
Mage Knight the Board Game – 7 plays
I did not look at this one very much before Essen as it fits a style, adventure games, and property, Mage Knight, which I have little interest in. Luckily, one of my geekbuddies made a pretty convincing argument that this is a game I should be paying attention to, and I am glad I did as it ended up being the game I spent the most time playing at the convention. For a good while, I thought it was going to end up being my game of the convention, but it ended up being edged out by a game that I was not even certain I was going to try when I first arrived. I am now definitely planning on pre-ordering it in the near future, but I admit I am worried that my frequent plays at the convention level will put me at an experience level that makes it a little bit less fun for the other players. Hopefully the enjoyment that comes from defeating monsters, conquering dungeons, and ransacking wizard’s towers and castles will make up for it.
 
 
To be honest, I have not played a whole lot of adventure games. I played D&D for many, many years and most adventure games seemed like they would simply be pale experiences of an rpg experience. Additionally, the few that I did sample seemed rather random in a way that did not produce a good gaming experience or a story. Arkham Horror was a mild exception, but even with the expansions I lost interest after 50 plays. While still retaining some random elements, in the form of card draws, available mana, and what particular monster is at a site, there are enough constraints that you can make reasonable attempts at short term and long term plans. Even the few instances where there are surprises, like when there is a monster face down on a particular location, it is not completely random, and is instead within a narrow range of particular possibilities, with the back of one of the manuals providing pictures and quantities of the various monsters of each category, allowing you a good idea of what can potentially be placed. The implementation of deck building is among the best I have seen, with the single unique element found in the initial deck blossoming into numerous variations once spells, advanced actions, and artifacts are added into the mix, as they tend to do, particularly once the players become more experienced. I particularly appreciated how the cards translated into board actions while representing the limitations of character actions, while more control might by slightly more realistic, but would not create the interesting turn-to-turn puzzles that make each hand so interesting. I could go into more detail, but that would risk consuming this convention report, so I am going to reserve my additional thoughts until I produce my review.
 
 
Rating: 9
 
 
Ora et Labora – 5 plays
Going into the convention I did not plan on playing Ora et Labora. I had it on pre-order and the version at BGG.Con was in German, so I had few reasons to try it out. Additionally, while it looked interesting, and largely a return to form for Mr. Rosenberg, I was concerned about the games long-term replayability due to the lack of a variable set-up. Fortunately, one of my primary gaming companions for the convention, Jerry, wanted to give it a shot so I agreed to teach it. I am glad I did as Ora et Labora has emerged as my favorite game of BGG.Con 2011, and is a strong contender both for my Top Game of 2011 and perhaps a position in my personal Top 5.
 
There have been somewhat frequent comparisons between Le Havre and Ora et Labora, and I can understand their basis. They have somewhat similar action selection mechanisms and are largely focused on producing series of actions to produce increasingly refined goods that can be converted to victory point representations, but these, like the need to cut down trees and peat in order to expand your territory, are merely the sort of mechanical flourishes that you will find in any sort of game that comes from a designer who produces multiple games in the same genre; they are signs of refinement of a designer’s existing ideas rather than a lack of originality. Ora et Labora is definitely one of those refinements, and from beginning to end it is obvious that Mr. Rosenberg has brought what he has learned from his previous designs forward into this one. Whether it truly ends up being the best of his designs remains to be seen. I know think it is better than Le Havre, a game that I am souring on a bit for reasons unrelated to Ora et Labora, the only question is whether I ultimately find it to be better than Agricola. I suspect I will.
 
 
Rating: 9, with a chance to become my third current 10. 
 
Martian Dice – 5 Plays
I played this one at the airport with my travel companion, Will. I didn’t particularly enjoy it, but to be fair this is a game that isn’t really meant for me. The only dice game that I have remotely liked was Sushizock, and I even grew bored of that one eventually. We had time to kill at the airport and this was one of the free door prizes that Tasty Minstrel generously included as part of its sponsorship package, so we gave it a shot. As far as dice games go it isn’t awful, the decision about when to keep non-scoring death rays vs. items that reward points is mildly diverting but was not entertaining enough to keep it beyond the 30 or so minutes it took us to play 5 times. I ended up offering it to a few interested people passing by before giving it to Will because he thought it was random enough that his wife might like it.  
 
Rating: 3
 
Vanuatu – 2 plays
Vanuatu was one of the first games I played at the convention and one that I enjoyed enough to suggest we end the actual convention with it as well, however unlike either Mage Knight or Ora et Labora, I found few surprises in the actual gameplay. The game, as it is played, is pretty much as I thought it would be based on the description, with fierce battles during the action drafting phase that turn into slow realizations of doom as you realize that your carefully crafted plan for the round has collapsed in the face of the placements, whether malicious or inadvertent, of your opponents. So I found the game to be quite enjoyable, and am glad I imported a copy. I expect it will get quite a bit of local play, even if it may end up getting overshadowed by some of the other powerhouse releases that came out this year. 
 
Rating: 8
 
 
Dungeon Petz – 1 play
Dungeon Pets is probably the lesser of the two Vlaada Chavatil games released at Essen this year, but is one that, on the whole, I like. The action selection mechanic is fun, with the stakes high enough that how much gold and imps you invest is important enough, but not so punishing enough that you find yourself screwed if you have unused imps at the end. I also liked the theme implementation of the needs cards; they provided you with a good idea of how a particular pet was going to react, without making them completely predictable. The ability to keep a card between rounds was also helpful, as it gave an idea of what sort of challenges were going to be available on future rounds and helped you save cards that would be useful to meet the desires of dungeon lords who were going pet shopping. The difficulty in meeting these needs also put a nice break on expansion, as you have to weigh the advantages of newer pets with the difficulty in meeting their particular needs. So it was a fun and interesting game, not the best game of the convention, or one that I found hugely intriguing, but a solid one none the less. I have no intention of cancelling my pre-order.
 
Rating: 7


Eclipse – 1 play
I greatly enjoyed this year’s other big 4X game, Space Empires 4X, and was fairly confident based on various previews and a look at the rules that I would likely enjoy Eclipse too, though I admit I was concerned that I would ultimately find the combat aspect of Eclipse to be but a pale shadow of the wonderful fleet combats found in Space Empires 4X. While I would like to say that all of my concerns were dashed aside, and that Eclipse is now my favorite game of the year and my favorite 4X ever, I still find myself to be a bit.. hesitant.
 
On the whole the game, is just as enjoyable as I had hoped, but I found the combat to be even duller than I feared, and it seemed that the unevenness of potential exploration tile draws to be somewhat problematic. If you draw a few ancient’s ships early on while your opponent is able to get territory and free discovery tiles it seem that it will take a while to catch up with them, even with the potential for increased actions based on less tokens on the board. I am also unsure about the variance of the ship part draws, as I saw a game situation where someone went from having a fleet that was perfectly adequate in defending themselves from a large fleet on their borders to completely inadequate in doing the same after that opponent got an alien ship part from a neighboring system. Of course all of these items are the result of a single play by inexperienced players, and all of the potential imbalances or problematic items I saw might wash away with further plays. If so then I expect this one will probably be a reasonable counterpart in my collection to Space Empires 4X, with the particular game chosen being based on overall mood and player count.
 
Rating: 7 (very tentative)
 
Helvetia – 1 play
I stumbled into a game of this after I saw a couple reading the rules later in the evening, and ended up in a four player game. The game itself was an slightly entertaining logistics games, that somewhat reminded me of Neuland in that goods only existed for the moment, and you had to translate them into more advanced good by successive worker actions. The marriage mechanics and the bonuses gained for taking the action selection mechanism were also clever, but the game as a whole was light and mild enough that I do not feel the need to ever play it again, though it was enjoyable enough as I was playing it.

Rating: 5
 
MIL (1049) – 1 play
MIL (1049) was one of the games that I was most looking forward to try out before the convention started. It was the only game that I was interested in that I did not pre-order, as I really have no clue where I would pre-order it from, and it ended up being one of the better games I played at the convention, and may end up being in my Top 5 for the year. The way the game forces you to set-up your opponents for more powerful options while performing the more basic actions is interesting, as is the difficulty in deciding when it is worth transitioning from basic actions to the more powerful ones that are available in the spheres of power. The ability to forge mutually beneficial diplomatic relationships with and declare war on other players was also fun and, while we only marginally took advantage of it during our play, it seemed like there was a lot of potential to establish even more these sorts of the interesting vassal-lord relationships for players who are practiced in the game.
 
One of the people I played with complained about the luck of getting a son versus daughters in the reproduction phase, and found it particularly annoying that one player was able to get through the game without ever rolling additional daughters (that player won). This may end up being a legitimate criticism, but I don’t think one play is enough to determine for sure if that particular bit of dice luck is enough to warp the game. I hope that it is not the case because the rest of the game is cool enough that I would like to add it to my collection.
 
Rating: 8
 
 
Pret-a-Porter – 1 play
I did not play a complete game of this at the convention. Instead I sat down with my friendly opponents and we decided to play through one of the fashion shows to get a feel for the game and then potentially restart once we understood the game a bit better. Instead by the time we reached the end of the first fashion show I, and the poor owner of the game, realized that this game was unfortunately not interesting enough to continue. Maybe it was because we were only playing with three, but the game seemed rather low on tension and most of the combo opportunities did not seem to be that interesting. If it was only that then it might have warranted a replay to see what we were missing, but unlike other games where I had a negative first impression, I did not see how it could get more interesting with future plays thus making it unlikely I would play it again. This is unfortunate because, much like 51st State, it had a lot of things that it seemed like I should like, but unfortunately the game did not seem to work on the whole. It is possible I will revisit this one later, but the odds are pretty low. With all of the other games that came out this year that I like, I do not really have time to waste on games that I see as marginal at best. Probably the biggest effect of playing Pret-a-Porter was to make me appreciate Vinhos (last year’s big “Put On A Show” game) a lot more than I currently do.
 
Rating: 4
 
 
Singapore – 1 play
This one was played on a whim late night on Saturday. Many jokes were made about needing to get to the court before “the man” got you, and getting raided by the fuzz (we were all a bit giddy due to sleep deprivation), so I am not sure I am able to separate the fun of the experience from the actual game so I am not going to rate this one yet. I did like the aspects of the game I expected to enjoy, and how lots are allocated and buildings were put together was pretty cool. Unfortunately, I won by a bit despite a deliberate sub-optimal play for comedic effect, and that kind of worries me. I pre-ordered this one, so I expect that I will have plenty of opportunities to explore it further, but I have a certain level of hesitation over this one right now.


Rating: Ask Again Later

Tournay – 1 play
We misplayed this one due to poor teaching on my part, but even with the corrected rules, I think that ultimately this one is not quite what I am looking for in a card game. This particular field is a crowded one for me, and any new game coming out having to compete with Race For the Galaxy, Innovation, Yomi, and Glory to Rome, so it is quite possible that if I was newer to the hobby or played more card games this one would be more interesting to me, but as it is I don’t think it would get played. If you are unhappy with the current available card games, or would like to try out one that is a bit more spatially oriented, it is worth checking out. If you already have a wide array of card games you are happy then you can probably pass on it.
 
Rating: 6
 
Upon A Salty Ocean – 1 play
We played this one after Singapore after we calmed down a bit, though there were jokes about me helping to build the town’s monastery after all of the monasteries I burned down in Mage Knight (don’t look at me like that, I had a good reason!) and how they break your legs if you try to leave a family of salt-mongers. I was pretty pleased with this one and, similar to Ora et Labora, most of my concerns about interplay variability have been resolved by my play of this game.

The interaction in action selection and the variability of how the market tiles effect the game and building mixes impact player decisions is sufficient to make Upon A Salty Ocean a rather different experience between games. In our game we found that an investment strategy was triumphant, with the winner never even sending their ship to sail out to sea, with the player who did that saving enough actions that they were able to manipulate the market pretty effectively for several rounds, while using their other actions for working on the cathedral or other buildings. The fact that other people found fishing to be dominant is promising as it means that slightly different player actions or demand tiles can result in a rather different game experience. As it is, I am looking forward to exploring this one further. It seems to be the sort of game that the locals will like and with my copy arriving next week we should probably be able to investigate it further in the near future.

Rating: 7
 
So all in all a good set of games. 2011 remains a strong year for me and I look forward to the challenge of deciding which of these excellent games to play the most over the next 6 months.
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54 Comments
Subscribe sub options Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:02 pm
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Chief EGG Head
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It was great meeting you and chatting about games, I'm only sorry we didn't get a chance to play, hopefully next time!
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  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:09 pm
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Curt Carpenter
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Ora et Labora... 9, with a chance to become my third current 10

Don't look now, but you already have three 10s.
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  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:10 pm
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Ryan Metzler
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Great list of games there. Confirms my thoughts on Ora et Labora and Kingdom builder, corroborates my experience with Vanuatu (look for an incoming review on that one), and gives me a good place to start on Tournay, Upon a Salty Ocean, and a few others.

Glad you had a good BGG.con!
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  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:10 pm
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Jesse Dean
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curtc wrote:
Quote:
Ora et Labora... 9, with a chance to become my third current 10

Don't look now, but you already have three 10s.


Fixed!
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  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:13 pm
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Tim Seitz
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Glen Allen
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Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him. 2 Sam 14:14
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Uh oh - what got axed?
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  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:24 pm
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Jesse Dean
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Age of Steam. Demoted to an 8.
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  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:32 pm
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Mark G.
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doubtofbuddha wrote:
Age of Steam. Demoted to an 8.


AoS is still my only 10. Your write-up on Mage Knight and Ora has jumped them up on my wish list!
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  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:39 pm
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John Brier
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Aventura
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Nice write up! Based on your comments I am more inclined to check out Salty Ocean and MIL (1049), although I don't expect either to break into my current top three 2011 games (Vanuatu, Colonial, Whitechapel). Ora et Labora, however, might just accomplish that feat, and it the game I'm most looking forward to trying based on your incredible enthusiasm (possibly surpassing Agricola for you? Wow!)
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  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:40 pm
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Tim Isakson
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Man, how did I miss that you were at the con?

Anyway, glad you had a good time - maybe we'll cross paths next year!
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  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:43 pm
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Jesse Dean
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Seriously. I updated my blog twice about how I was going. . I should be there next year unless something odd happens.
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  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:45 pm
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Jon
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I suppose Tournay is the biggest surprise here for me. Initially I was very optimistic about the game due to my love of Troyes, but I've now come to see that, despite the artistic similarities, the connections between the two probably aren't worth considering too deeply. Instead, Tournay should be simply judged on its own, and as you wrote, it has a lot of competition with other games. I've also read a few times that people who did not like Troyes might like Tournay instead, but an appreciation of Troyes is no guarantee of liking Tournay too. I haven't completely dismissed Tournay, but I'm now glad I didn't find a way to quickly import it as I suspect even if I like the game it wouldn't have been worth the additional cost of importing.

Meanwhile, I had purposely kept Ora et Labora at a mental distance. Le Havre is my favorite game, and I enjoy Agricola too after some time avoiding it thinking I wouldn't like it as much. Loyang had disappointed me though and Merkator only seemed of marginal interest. I'm happy to hear it went so well with you and although the lack of a variable start gives me slight hesitation I suspect overall I will enjoy this too.

Mage Knight was completely off my radar even though lately I had some interest in games of a dungeon crawl nature to play with my boys. We ended up trading Ghost Stories for Dungeons and Dragons Castle Ravenloft which my boys are enjoying for now, but I was looking forward to next year's Descent second edition as a possible acquistion. Now I think I'll have to also consider Mage Knight and that might fill the niche for us.
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  • Edited Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:27 pm
  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:02 pm
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Buz
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As a relatively (dis?) interested lurker, I truly appreciate thought that goes into your evaluations of these games as well as the time spent in writing about them. I find most reviewers can give a broad picture of what they liked and didn't but your ability to diagnose what exactly makes the game tick or not for you is invaluable. I have the ability to purchase about one game a year now, and finding one that can break into regular circulation in my group is of utmost importance. Your comments have gone a long way towards pruning my list down, and I appreciate it.

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  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:09 pm
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Lacombe
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I still don't get how anyone got in one play of some of the hotter games [Eclipse, Mage Knight, etc]... much less 5 or more.

What did you do, squat on the games? I had a great con experience, but the one disappointment was how full the hot games room always was.

I kept wandering by when I had a chance, looking for an open table, but the only time I got to play in there was early early in the morning or around midnight in the evening.

I would have loved to try out Eclipse or Mage Knight or even Vanuatu, but I'll be damned if I know how I was supposed to go about it. I guess I was just supposed to wait at the table?
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  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:37 pm
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Jesse Dean
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Mage knight was in the library most of the time when I came to look. The others were more opportunistic. Eclipse I got into because it was open early one morning when I arrive. Ora et Labora mostly involved me asking how close they were to finishing. We did back-to-back Ora games a couple of times but only when there was no one waiting or only one (we brought the singletons in and taught them). I brought my own copy of Vanuatu, but that was one I saw open a few times.
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  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:44 pm
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Lacombe
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Is your only complaint against Eclipse the luck?
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  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:53 pm
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Jesse Dean
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Right now? Yes. I have it on pre-order though, so my critique will likely develop over time. Why do you ask?
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  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:57 pm
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Lacombe
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doubtofbuddha wrote:
Right now? Yes. I have it on pre-order though, so my critique will likely develop over time. Why do you ask?


Because if that's the only thing wrong with the game from your perspective, I'm pretty sure I'll love it.
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  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:01 pm
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Jesse Dean
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Ah! Yeah the design is solid overall. Tense, interesting decisions elegance where it counts but not so much that it detracts from the theme, a good arc, etc. I just think the tile draw mechanism could pOtentially screw a player through no fault of their own.
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  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:05 pm
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Lacombe
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I didn't mean anything accusatory by the "squatting" comment, by the way... just befuddlement.
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  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:14 pm
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Troy Adlington
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Don't think I got to meet you Jesse.

I wanted to actually...we both like beefier games.

Next year mate?

I didn't like MIL too much. It wasn't bad it just seemed less than the sum of its parts

I am still salivating to play Eclipse.

I hope someone grabbed it locally!
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  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:19 pm
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Jerry Hagen
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doubtofbuddha wrote:
Mage knight was in the library most of the time when I came to look. The others were more opportunistic. Eclipse I got into because it was open early one morning when I arrive. Ora et Labora mostly involved me asking how close they were to finishing. We did back-to-back Ora games a couple of times but only when there was no one waiting or only one (we brought the singletons in and taught them). I brought my own copy of Vanuatu, but that was one I saw open a few times.


I think there were four copies of Mage Knight in the library. There were a couple times when I couldn't find a copy but for the most part there was a copy or two there - perhaps we just got lucky.

I did camp outside the Hot Games Room Sunday morning just before 8:00 as we had planned to try playing Eclipse and it was by far the most difficult seat to get of any I tried. As it turned out the plan changed and we did not play Eclipse that morning, but the table was there for the taking. Apparently I was the only person who both had the idea and was willing to forsake sleep to pull it off.

Edit: I can only speak for myself but I think this ethic was shared by others at my table - if another group comes by and requests to play a hot game after you're done, you yield the game no questions asked. If it's only a singleton and you wish to play again, you offer to teach.

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  • Edited Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:26 pm
  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:23 pm
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Burster of Bubbles, Destroyer of Dreams.
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BTW, we only had one pirate ship come up in our Salty Ocean game, but I'm told that we played the rule wrong: the pirate only damages one ship of the first player out on the ocean, then retires. Seems rather weak...
 
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  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:10 pm
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Just started reading, but wanted to mention before I forgot... You put Hansa Teutonica and Kingdom Builder in the same time frame?!?
 
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  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:56 pm
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Yes. They are both shorter games rather than mid length games (90 mins or 2 hs) or long games (3+ hrs)
 
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  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:01 pm
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doubtofbuddha wrote:
Yes. They are both shorter games rather than mid length games (90 mins or 2 hs) or long games (3+ hrs)

My games of Kingdom Builder have easily been a 'category' shorter than my games of HT. HT is probably 60-90 mins easy, while KB is probably 30-45.
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  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:30 pm
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Upon a Salty Ocean is gaining local mindshare. While I've not played, my current summary of local responses is troubled but interesting. The bigger interest however is in Bullfrog Goldfield. The game itself appears solid outside of the inexcusably random mine tiles. My hope is that simply using face-up mine tiles will rescue the game.

My other interest is focused on The Forgotten Planet, a critically flawed and unambitious design with what seems like a wonderful core. I've hopes that some extra development can yet rescue the game that might have been. It seems so close...

Oh, and then there's Rolling Stock. That's my game of 2011: Rolling Stock. Hopefully we can get a wider release before year's end.
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  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:49 pm
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sedjtroll wrote:
doubtofbuddha wrote:
Yes. They are both shorter games rather than mid length games (90 mins or 2 hs) or long games (3+ hrs)

My games of Kingdom Builder have easily been a 'category' shorter than my games of HT. HT is probably 60-90 mins easy, while KB is probably 30-45.

I have to agree with Seth here - kingdom builder was done in 30 minutes and felt somewhat lighter than HT that goes over an hour easily, and has more things to manage and more choices to make each move.
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  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:00 pm
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Jesse, I nearly burst out laughing at this one: "Arkham Horror was a mild exception, but even with the expansions I lost interest after 50 plays." 50? Good Lord, man! Do you eat or sleep?
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  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:27 pm
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Quote:
Upon a Salty Ocean

is a new one to me.
The name just strikes me as weird though. Aren't all oceans salty?
So it would be like calling it "Upon a Wet Ocean"?
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  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:29 pm
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Jesse Dean
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It has been known to happen. Gaming is usually an appetite suppressant for me for whatever reason...
 
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  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:30 pm
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adamw wrote:
Jesse, I nearly burst out laughing at this one: "Arkham Horror was a mild exception, but even with the expansions I lost interest after 50 plays." 50? Good Lord, man! Do you eat or sleep?


Seriously, I'd be *happy* if I got any game in my collection to 50 plays.
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  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:51 pm
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Honestly, that is something should be aware of when reading my blog. When talking about interplay variability, I mean over the course of 40+ plays. If it does not seem like it will hit 40 plays for a gamer's game or 100 for a shorter game than that is not good enough for me.
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  • Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:53 pm
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clearclaw wrote:
The bigger interest however is in Bullfrog Goldfield. The game itself appears solid outside of the inexcusably random mine tiles.

BG does indeed seem to have much promise. Have you played it yet? If so, is the randomness of the mine tiles really inexcusable? Game-changingly so?
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  • Posted Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:19 am
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Curt Carpenter
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Exaustive list of (non-public domain) games I've played 40 times:
1. Tichu
2. Settlers of Catan (maybe, if you combine vanilla + C&K)
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  • Edited Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:36 am
  • Posted Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:35 am
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Me:

1. Tichu
2. Brass
3. Age of Steam
4. Oregon
5. Wiz-War
6. Rosenkonig
7. Web of Power

Twilight Struggle and Liberte will probably be there by next year.
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  • Edited Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:42 am
  • Posted Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:41 am
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J C Lawrence
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garygarison wrote:
BG does indeed seem to have much promise. Have you played it yet?


Dave Eisen played much of a game at BGG.Con. I have not played.

Quote:
If so, is the randomness of the mine tiles really inexcusable? Game-changingly so?


I believe so. (Per last night's conversation, Dave agrees)

curtc wrote:
Exaustive list of (non-public domain) games I've played 40 times:


A few of the more obvious for me:

Sticheln
Age of Steam
Ricochet Robots
No Thanks!
1830: Railways & Robber Barons
18MEX
Farkle
Wabash Cannonball
Carrom
German Railways
Take 5!
Container
Twixt
Imperial
...etc
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  • Edited Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:38 am
  • Posted Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:31 am
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Michael Reneer
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doubtofbuddha wrote:
Age of Steam. Demoted to an 8.


We can't talk anymore
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  • Posted Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:43 am
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Jesse Dean
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That will make gaming tough.

TF tomorrow at 4?
 
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  • Posted Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:48 am
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Hmm. Yet another of my Geekbuddies who likes MIL.

Would you mind elaborating on what you liked about it? And, possibly more importantly, how long your game took and how many players there were?

We found the game to be far too long for what it is, and I'm curious whether our 3.5 hour playtime is really that atypical.

Mind you, I also think the game suffers greatly from Vinhos Syndrome and would have preferred it if several of the fiddlier bits had been refined a little more during testing. There are certainly interesting decisions to be made, but I felt that the core of the game is too often muddied by a stream of less important but time-consuming busywork.

In a less strong year it might have been a keeper, but in a year with as many great new games as this one, something had to give, which is why my copy will shortly be winging its way off to its new owner.

pk
 
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  • Posted Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:54 am
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PatK wrote:
Mind you, I also think the game suffers greatly from Vinhos Syndrome...

Funny you mention that, because based only on reading MIL's rules, I drew the same comparison.
 
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  • Edited Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:06 am
  • Posted Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:06 am
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Tim Seitz
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PatK wrote:
Hmm. Yet another of my Geekbuddies who likes MIL.

Would you mind elaborating on what you liked about it? And, possibly more importantly, how long your game took and how many players there were?

We found the game to be far too long for what it is, and I'm curious whether our 3.5 hour playtime is really that atypical.

Mind you, I also think the game suffers greatly from Vinhos Syndrome and would have preferred it if several of the fiddlier bits had been refined a little more during testing. There are certainly interesting decisions to be made, but I felt that the core of the game is too often muddied by a stream of less important but time-consuming busywork.

In a less strong year it might have been a keeper, but in a year with as many great new games as this one, something had to give, which is why my copy will shortly be winging its way off to its new owner.

pk

Pat, I haven't played Vinhos, (and I am not Jesse), but no, I don't think 3.5 hours for MIL is standard. My 3 player games have all been quick, and our big 5-player game, where 4 out of 5 were newbies, it took only 2.5 hours, including rules explanation.

The game only plays 5 rounds obviously, and each round is only made up of a few actions for each knight. Once a couple players jump to placing in the spheres, the other players need to do that as well or risk losing important actions.

The unique aspect (to me) is the interdependencies created by the vassal relationships. I've not seen any game like it in that regard.
 
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  • Posted Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:08 am
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Interesting, thanks for the input Tim.

I know of two other groups who abandoned the game after the first round because it took so long, which led to my thinking that our experience was typical.

I suspect the game is subject to groupthink - that is, if your group spends longer before tipping over to Knight placement then the game will drag on too long. If you all play more aggressively, the game can work.

EDIT: Oh, I forgot to add: If you like the Vassal relationships, give Confucius a try. The gift-giving mechanism in that game is every bit as cool but works (IMHO) a lot more effectively.

pk
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  • Edited Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:32 am
  • Posted Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:26 am
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I would be interested in a comparison with Confucius. That was a great design that sadly just didn't quite get the balance right. But is still worth is just for the uniqueness of the gift giving.
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  • Posted Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:29 am
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Patrick Korner
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I haven't played either enough for a full comparison, but in terms of the 'indebtedness' mechanism, here's how they stack up:

Confucius:
-Gifts obligate the receiver in several ways during the game: you have to support the gifter at the academy/school as well as during ministry resolution
-Gifts can be canceled in several ways, including giving the gifter back a larger gift (which turns the tables).
- Gifts are a fluid and ever-changing system, with new gifts being given and old ones being discarded. Being under a gift burden is difficult and adds tremendous tension to your in-game choices

MIL
- Vassalage gives your Lord mostly benefits: Free VPs when that Knight gains land, and a food per land during Harvest. You can sometimes hope your Lord will support you in Wartime, but it is not an enforced support
- Vassalage can be canceled in one way only: Death of a non-heir, non-land and non-castle owning Knight. In other words, unless you are playing poorly or your opponent made a poor choice to subjugate, this shouldn't really happen much (IMHO, at least - Knights = actions and letting one die penniless seems like a bad idea)
- Vassalage tends to be a static (and often reciprocal) system. Vassals don't generally die and there isn't generally a reason why your stronger Knight can't make a Vassal out of your opponent, so the usual effect is that both players end up with inflated scores. That will occasionally lead to tactical choices in terms of who to attack in War, as the Lord loses points along with the Vassal when you take land, but other than that the Vassalage mechanism doesn't appear to influence in-game decision making very much.

For me, Confucius does a much better job of entangling you in a web of obligations that put a real wrench into your plans. In MIL, Vassalage is a sometime annoyance that, to be honest, rarely affected my choices. I still ended up winning by 20 points in the one game I played and I didn't feel as though having 3 of my Knights subjugated mattered much at all.

Granted, all of the above is based on two plays of Confucius and one play of MIL, but I'd be surprised if the Vassal mechanism ended up having much more depth than I'm assigning it.

pk
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  • Posted Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:42 am
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Great commentary on some of the top prospects from the Essen pack.

Did you get a chance to see Trajan at BGG Con? The ratings seem to be holding up well for the game and comments I've read so far have been generally good.
 
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  • Posted Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:41 am
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doubtofbuddha wrote:
That will make gaming tough.

TF tomorrow at 4?


Working from home so I will TF this week.
 
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  • Posted Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:57 pm
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It was there but I did not play it due to other distractions. I heard lots of positive comments about it at the convention though. I am not sure if I will buy it at this point though, due to all of the other new games I have to play.
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  • Posted Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:37 pm
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michaelreneer wrote:
doubtofbuddha wrote:
That will make gaming tough.

TF tomorrow at 4?


Working from home so I will TF this week.


You coming to Cool Stuff tonight Michael?

I am making an appearance to play eithe Colonial or Vanuatu.
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  • Posted Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:53 pm
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We are actually going to have a pretty big crowd. We might have to split into Colonial and Vanuatu....
 
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  • Posted Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:56 pm
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doubtofbuddha wrote:
We are actually going to have a pretty big crowd. We might have to split into Colonial and Vanuatu....


*jealous*
 
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  • Posted Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:10 pm
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doubtofbuddha wrote:
We are actually going to have a pretty big crowd. We might have to split into Colonial and Vanuatu....


Nice. Workis letting us off early today, so I will be there by 4:00. Probably want to take a spot at Colonial if I get a choice.
 
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Jesse,

I'm happy to endorse your views of Mage Knight. It wasn't on my radar until Essen and only post Essen did I realise how good it would be. Several games in now and it is my favourite from Essen.

I liked Singapore, but it's not great; my first Eclipse play was better than yours so I'd venture an 8+; Tourney was OK while my Ora and Labora experience is limited to drooling, so you haven't helped there.
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  • Posted Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:29 pm
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Quote:
One of the people I played with complained about the luck of getting a son versus daughters in the reproduction phase, and found it particularly annoying that one player was able to get through the game without ever rolling additional daughters (that player won). This may end up being a legitimate criticism, but I don’t think one play is enough to determine for sure if that particular bit of dice luck is enough to warp the game. I hope that it is not the case because the rest of the game is cool enough that I would like to add it to my collection.


You can always avoid rolling the dice and recognize an illegitimate son. Is a bit more expensive, but luck free.

Usually I don't mind a couple more of single women at the start of the game, allows you play without the fear of being attacked
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  • Posted Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:54 am
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Jesse Dean
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I avoided being attacked simply by having big armies and lots of resources.

I don't think it is really that big of a deal, particularly since I would have won even with negative points from a few daughters, but I thought I should share his concern anyway.
 
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