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Analyzing pick up and delivery games (with some love for Merchants of Venus)

Mark Schlatter
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I have been thinking recently about the pick up and delivery games I play with a focus on the determined and undetermined parts of each game. Let me show you what I mean:

First example: Railroad Tycoon. In RT, the topography is determined --- you know where all the cities, mountains, rivers, etc... are. The routes are not yet determined, but will be set by the players. The demand structure (who wants what where) is basically set at the beginning of the game by drawing cubes. You might have some cubes drawn later depending on cards or actions, but roughly 80-90% of the demand structure is set. So, overall, a lot is known. In some ways, RT is the closest (of the pick up and delivery games I play) to a perfect information game. Sure, you have hidden rail barons and random cards, but most of the game is open to all.

Second example: crayon rail games. I play Martian Rails and Iron Dragon (cause apparently I don't do crayola without a genre). Like RT, the topography is set, except for some random events. (I'm looking at you, space elevator!) The routes are not yet determined, but will be built by the players. The demand structure, however, is not nearly as open as in RT. While everyone knows who makes what where, who wants what where is randomly determined and segregated among the players. What I know has to be delivered may have no influence on what you do.

Third example: On the Underground. It's more route building than delivery, but you do have to move the passenger around. It's another game where the topography is set, but note that routes are much more determined by the map. You can't connect any station to any other station, and thus you don't have the same sense of freedom as in a crayon rail game. And the demand structure is open (we all see the cards), but changes quickly and randomly.

So all this leads me to Merchant of Venus. In MoV, the demand structure is set --- you know who wants which goods. The routes are set (except for telegates) and are not under the control of the players. But unlike the above games, the topography (who lives in each system) is not determined. What this means is that you have a pick up and delivery game with a strong exploration focus. You never explore in a crayon rail game, because the focus is on the route building stimulated by the asymmetric demand structure. But in MoV, you must explore first.

Now, there are some dangers to this mixing of mechanics. Because you have a random assignment of systems, it might be that one explorer might discover an ideal mix of systems to carry out deliveries. But, if that happens, everyone sees it. Moreover, the chit system for goods ensures that a highly profitable run can't be used forever.

But the example of MoV does prompt me to wonder: are there other pick up and delivery games where exploration has such a strong role? Can you leave even more of the game undetermined? Are there good pick up and delivery games which have undetermined topography and routes? And can you leave all three initially undetermined?
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Subscribe sub options Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:27 pm
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Brian Leet
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Quote:
And can you leave all three initially undetermined?


I strongly suspect the challenge here will be balance. If demand for trades is random, then how do you prevent it from just being the player who lucks into the best adjacency situation running away with it?

In contrast, if you take distance and difficulty into account, then the exploration phase is a bit illusory as who or whatever you find will have value largely predetermined by game rules not random placement.

I'd be very excited by a game that overcame this!
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  • Posted Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:40 pm
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Lacombe
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Return of the Heroes is essentially (Merchant Of Venus + Magic Realm) / 10 [in complexity].

Played with an included tile discovery variant, it has the same exploration aspect as MoV.

Something like Roads & Boats has both undetermined demand and undetermined routes.

In R&B, you build the things that will produce/demand other things, and the routes to deliver on.

Cannes: Stars, Scripts and Screens is like an R&B-lite and leaves all three undetermined at the start.

Helden in der Unterwelt [based on RotH] also comes pretty close to leaving all three undetermined.

Doesn't Days of Steam have the "exploration" tile-laying along with deliveries? Seems it's also all three.
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  • Edited Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:49 pm
  • Posted Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:45 pm
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Lacombe
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Nice post / idea, by the way.
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  • Posted Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:45 pm
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Rick Holzgrafe
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Roads & Boats has pre-determined topography, but literally everything else is determined by the players. You decide where to build your production centers and factories, and you decide where to build roads. The heart of the game is designing an efficient network for the game's pickup-and-deliver mechanism.

But no exploration: the board is completely open from the start of the game. I haven't been able to think of a real p&d-with-exploration game, sorry!
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  • Posted Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:46 pm
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Lacombe
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If you're ok with the "delivery" being virtual [a la 18xx], then both 2038 and Greentown fulfill the all-three requirement.
 
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  • Posted Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:48 pm
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Darrell Hanning
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PghArch wrote:
Quote:
And can you leave all three initially undetermined?


I strongly suspect the challenge here will be balance. If demand for trades is random, then how do you prevent it from just being the player who lucks into the best adjacency situation running away with it?

In contrast, if you take distance and difficulty into account, then the exploration phase is a bit illusory as who or whatever you find will have value largely predetermined by game rules not random placement.

I'd be very excited by a game that overcame this!


While not completely overcoming it, Duck Dealer mitigates it, by having a multi-tier commodity structure - basic goods, manufactured goods, and refined goods. To get the most valuable items, you have to first find where you can get the manufactured goods built (and where to get the goods that go into that), and then find where you can take the manufactured goods, to create refined goods. And since this does result in a great deal of iterative moving around on the board, initial discovery is not the huge advantage it could be under other circumstances.

Duck Dealer has the additional advantage (to my mind) of not having any random element in movement. It's all a matter of accumulating energy, then deciding when is best to expend it.
 
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  • Edited Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:57 pm
  • Posted Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:56 pm
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Mark Schlatter
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NateStraight wrote:
If you're ok with the "delivery" being virtual [a la 18xx], then both 2038 and Greentown fulfill the all-three requirement.


It's been a long time since I've played an 18xx --- is there actually delivery or just the creation of routes?
 
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  • Posted Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:06 pm
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Kevin B. Smith
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Terra Prime has a large pickup-and-deliver component, but that's not the entire game. Exploration plays a large role (as does fighting aliens). The topography is random (assuming I am mapping your terminology correctly). The demand is at a fixed location but with random wants, but the supply locations are random (see topography). There are not really "routes", since you can move from any vertex to any other adjacent vertex.
 
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  • Posted Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:31 pm
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Mike Hoyt
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I have not yet received my copy of High Frontier but from reading the rules etc. you might find it interesting. The topgraphy is fixed, and the demand for products is assumed, the challenge is in just getting there, exploring and returning. So not exactly on topic (and sorry for that) but trying to do all of this in a realistic manner seems like it would be of interest.
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  • Posted Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:32 pm
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