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Eclipse, Mage Knight and Other News

Jesse Dean
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Eclipse
With the arrival of Eclipse on Wednesday, I have switched my primary focus from playing Mage Knight to playing Eclipse, though that did not stop me from playing Mage Knight 6 more times in the last week (mostly thanks to a houseguest whom likes adventure games). As expected my opinion of the game has improved with further plays, though my concerns have not really been alleviated much.

I think the biggest reason for my overall increase in opinion of the game is just a general increased understanding of the nuances of the game’s mechanical infrastructure and how to push and prod the system to my advantage. I still feel I have a lot to learn about the game, which is a good thing, but as it stands now does not seem to be only superficially deep, unlike 2010’s big 4X game “Sid Meier’s Civilization: The Board Game.” There is a lot going on here, and I suspect it is going to take quite a few games for me to really understand the implications of all the options that the game provides. I also really like the different races. Each one seems to provide a different overall play experience, with options that provide only a slight difference from the human baseline and those that are significantly different enough to open up entirely new strategic horizons.

The elegance of the system is also pretty exceptional. After my disappointment over Sid Meier’s Civilization: The Board Game and my fading appreciation of Through the Ages I was beginning to despair over ever finding a empire building board game that would ever come close to providing as good an experience as empire building video games. I think that Eclipse, and Colonial: Europe’s Empires Overseas for that matter, succeeds in that goal. So even if it does not provide my perfect empire game experience, it does provide proof that someone might be able to produce it someday.

My previous concerns about Eclipse have both faded and been replaced by entirely new and different concerns. I still think there is a potential to get put into a bad position based on the exploration tile draws as it really does seem better to find resource tiles, particularly those that provide money, early on then it does to find ancients. You do want to find ancients eventually in order to get their discovery tiles and reputation tiles, but getting effective resource tiles will allow you to ramp up until you get into a good position to deal with them faster. This issue may be avoidable if you are able to get a lucky ship-boosting or material production discovery early on, but I could easily see someone put in an unrecoverable position based just on exploration draws. I am not willing to dismiss the game just based on exploration yet, but I think I would be happier with the overall design if there were more system tiles total, and everyone had the ability to look at two and keep one.

I am much less concerned about the luck of discovery tiles. Most anything you find can be turned into an effective advantage, and even if you decide to simply keep the tile for victory points, 2 VP is a significant advantage, perhaps not as significant as getting a ship part or resource boost early on, but still a bonus that I am happy to get.

The variance of the reputation tiles is a concern, and a somewhat major one. In the worst case scenario there can be a 12 point difference between someone who draws straight 1s for their four tiles vs. someone who draws straight 4s, but even a close game can be decided by the draws if one player drew slightly better than the person in second place. You could continue to attempt space battles after you get your full reputation tiles just for the opportunity to get better draws, but you are also potentially thinning out your opponent’s bad tiles in the process too, and the likelihood of getting good draws from the bag goes down over time as other players grab the better reputation tiles. With victory points from most other areas in the game pre-determined this is slightly jarring. None of our games have been close enough for the difference in reputation tile victory points to matter, but as skill levels get closer, it could become problematic over time.


I plan to continue to encourage play of Eclipse in the near future to see if I can work through my issues with the game or at least find how much they negatively impact my perception of Eclipse’s quality. At the very least they are not as detrimental to the play experience as the chaotic parts of Urban Sprawl, which means that it will at least be fun stretching out the limits of the design. I hope to write my Eclipse review by the end of the month but we will see what happens.

Mage Knight
Mage Knight continues to go well. I am up to 21 plays, and am really appreciating the variability between individual games even with identical scenarios. Tonight’s game (Full Conquest) was particularly interesting because we ended up with 3 castles in the same general vicinity. Two were captured by the same player, and he proceeded to claim the third from another player after he had moved on. That castle was next to a city. Hilarity ensued, he conquered two cities and that was the end of that. Honestly, I am fairly surprised I was only 18 points behind after that, thanks to my steady acquisition of artifacts and abused of the Learning advanced action. I think Full Conquest is still my favorite scenario, but I enjoy the others too. It is interesting how each one changed the value of particular enhancements in relationship to each other.

Other News
Alex Wilson wrote an excellent blog post (BGG's most influential reviewers) analyzing the most influential reviewers on BGG and I came up 6th as well as the 2nd most influential written reviewer (vs. video reviewer) based on people who thumb and tip my posts. Thanks for the support ladies and gentlemen, I really do appreciate it!

I also see that Coolstuff got in copies of German Railways, which is a game I pre-ordered in preparation for Essen 2010, and Warriors and Traders which is a game that I have been interested in since I first read about it. Is there any desire for me to take a look at it after I finish up with writing about Eclipse?
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Subscribe sub options Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:37 am
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Brigitte Haas
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Excellent comments, as always. In answer to your last question, I, for one, would love to read your thoughts on either of those two games, but especially German Railways.
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  • Posted Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:41 pm
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Dwarf Bashful the 6th
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Great gameing report!
I will get Eclipse hopefully for Christmas and then I will have my own experience with it and Warriors & Traders. I think with your eye for a detail you will be able to spot similarity, if any, between Eclipse and Warriors & Traders. I think this could be a great deal.

I agree with Knit4VPs, that it would be nice to read your thoughts on neither of the two mentioned games, but for me - Warriors & Traders could go first.
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  • Posted Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:55 pm
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Jesse Dean
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At the very least I will write up some blog posts about German Railways. We will see about a full review.

agnies, what do you particularly like about Warriors & Traders?
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  • Posted Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:18 pm
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David Murray
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Hey Jesse,

Looking at your comments on SMC:TBG, it seems that you liked the game to some degree. I acquired it via MT and have played it twice and liked it quite a bit. What kind of disappointments did you have with game that ultimately made you lose interest after your initial enthusiasm?
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  • Posted Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:29 pm
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Jesse Dean
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RyanLeaf wrote:
Hey Jesse,

Looking at your comments on SMC:TBG, it seems that you liked the game to some degree. I acquired it via MT and have played it twice and liked it quite a bit. What kind of disappointments did you have with game that ultimately made you lose interest after your initial enthusiasm?


It just seemed ultimately very shallow and mechanical compared to the computer game version of Civilization and other civilization games I have played. They ended up being very true the computer game, but I think the main thing that showed me is that while those items work very well for the computer game they were a little bit less interesting in multi-player board game form.
 
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  • Posted Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:38 pm
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Tim Seitz
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Glen Allen
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Quote:
The variance of the reputation tiles is a concern, and a somewhat major one. In the worst case scenario there can be a 12 point difference between someone who draws straight 1s for their four tiles vs. someone who draws straight 4s, but even a close game can be decided by the draws if one player drew slightly better than the person in second place. You could continue to attempt space battles after you get your full reputation tiles just for the opportunity to get better draws, but you are also potentially thinning out your opponent’s bad tiles in the process too, and the likelihood of getting good draws from the bag goes down over time as other players grab the better reputation tiles. With victory points from most other areas in the game pre-determined this is slightly jarring. None of our games have been close enough for the difference in reputation tile victory points to matter, but as skill levels get closer, it could become problematic over time.

I think this is an absolutely brilliant mechanism that rewards early aggression. Very similar to the mechanism in Thebes, it shines when applied to an economic game like Eclipse. Most games like this reward turtling and building up econ, and any early deviation from that recipe results in you getting behind economically. However, the player who invests in some decent early tech can go a rampaging and build up quite a decent lead, sucking up all the good tiles, thinning the points remaining in the bag for the latecomers.
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  • Posted Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:39 pm
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Lee Fisher
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typo here?

Quote:
I was beginning to despair over ever finding a empire building board game that would ever come close to providing as good an experience as empire building board games.
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  • Posted Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:40 pm
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Jesse Dean
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lfisher wrote:
typo here?

Quote:
I was beginning to despair over ever finding a empire building board game that would ever come close to providing as good an experience as empire building board games.


Thanks!

I meant video games in the second part. Post updated.
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  • Posted Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:44 pm
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Jesse Dean
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out4blood wrote:
I think this is an absolutely brilliant mechanism that rewards early aggression. Very similar to the mechanism in Thebes, it shines when applied to an economic game like Eclipse. Most games like this reward turtling and building up econ, and any early deviation from that recipe results in you getting behind economically. However, the player who invests in some decent early tech can go a rampaging and build up quite a decent lead, sucking up all the good tiles, thinning the points remaining in the bag for the latecomers.


That is a good point! Though with the random draw it seems that there are reasonable odds (note I have not calculated the odds) that even with early fights you will end up getting poor victory point tile draws. However, you are right that sustained early battles will be rewarded in this way, as over the course of multiple draws it is less likely that an individual bad draw will hurt you as eventually if you continue to push you should get an overall improvement in your VPs drawn that will allow you to replace an older chip. Hrm...

See, it is things like this that have caused me to hold off on reviewing Eclipse until I have a better handle of it.
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  • Posted Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:53 pm
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Tim Seitz
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Glen Allen
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Salo had some Eclipse comments that were so spot on, all I can do is copy them, and add my comments:
Quote:
* Tech Tree: random tech draws give variability between games. It's fairly open what you can develop, but if you have researched a tech in a particular field already, it's cheaper to develop new ones in the same field. The result is a simple yet elegant tech tree that nudges you in certain directions but is not too restrictive; highly efficient.

You can gain efficiency in building up with primitive techs first and getting to advanced techs later, but you don't have to do that. If you do get advanced techs first, you can't use the full discount on the smaller ones. Pretty ingenious. The randomness of the tech tree creates quite a bit of variability in the game, apart from the explore and discovery tile draws. It also makes turn order fairly important since you might want to pass first in the hopes a good tech comes out.

Quote:
* The Resource System: using Through the Ages's idea of removing cubes on your player board as you expand your empire without that earlier game's fiddlyness; a wonderful design solution to the problem of bookkeeping.

I've worried over the fiddliness of Through the Ages: A Story of Civilization for quite some time, and I cannot develop a more efficient system of tracking economic impacts. Increasing population has several impacts in TtA: consumption, happiness, and new population costs. Similarly, expanding your population in Eclipse impacts your economy, science, and materials. It may be fiddly to setup, but it completely streamlines the remainder of the game. No need to count planets or anything.

Quote:
* Building your Ships: my favourite part; you can upgrade your own ships so that each player's ships are individual and each player can develop their own military doctrine, so to say. This is all done in a way with ship blueprints and tiles that removes any form of bookkeeping.

This is the cool part of the game, and there is a lot of room for strategy about what to get, when to get it, and how to best attack whoever. that's it's tied into the economy, tech tree, and victory point system makes it even better.

Quote:
* Action System: a brilliant method of action selection, whereby taking actions and expanding use the same resource (action disks--which like the other resources you remove from your board, exposing the increasing upkeep costs as you use more disks), thereby balancing how much you can do and how much you can expand.

Another neat innovation. I can't think of another game that does it quite like this. The larger your empire, the more your actions cost you. A smaller empire can actually afford to take as many or more actions simply because they have fewer influence discs managing their sprawling empire. This forces some nice choices about # of actions and rate of expansion. However, this is somewhat mitigated by the bankruptcy mechanism, which I am not sure I care for. I take that back. I am sure I don't care for it. Bankruptcy should have a harsher penalty, IMO, such as losing permanently losing an influence disc, or something more drastic. You should be able to use it as a way to get influence discs back on your board.

Quote:
* Incentive to Fight Early On: the method of awarding VPs for combat (which you draw from a bag and choose the best) give you an incentive to attack early on, as the chances are that at the end of the game only the low value chits will be left.

Related to the reputation VP scoring, this neatly solves the turtling issue that most 4x/economic games suffer from.

Quote:
* Expansion: the explore action is cleverly handled so that you quickly expand, bringing you into conflict with your neighbours very soon. There is no long build up before you get your empire onto a war footing.

Also, the wormhole system allows you to try and manipulate avenues into your territory.

Quote:
All in all, a wonderfully designed game that is a lot of fun to play; you will end up thinking the game a lot after playing it.

Agreed!
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  • Edited Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:01 pm
  • Posted Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:01 pm
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eryn roston
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out4blood wrote:

I think this is an absolutely brilliant mechanism that rewards early aggression. Very similar to the mechanism in Thebes, it shines when applied to an economic game like Eclipse. Most games like this reward turtling and building up econ, and any early deviation from that recipe results in you getting behind economically. However, the player who invests in some decent early tech can go a rampaging and build up quite a decent lead, sucking up all the good tiles, thinning the points remaining in the bag for the latecomers.


what about the fact that you can turtle AND be aggressive at the same time thanks to ancients? It seems a player can keep away from everyone else and beat up on a bunch of ancients in their back yard in order to get those good tile without risking open conflict against opponents.

-E
 
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  • Posted Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:50 am
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Dwarf Bashful the 6th
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doubtofbuddha wrote:


agnies, what do you particularly like about Warriors & Traders?


Jesse Dean,

Santa did read my letter and brought me Eclipse
I have managed to play it once so far. And answering your question I would like to say that I do like strategy games where there is no dice rolling or unforeseen conditions, that is why I like Warriors & Traders. Even though Eclipse is a game with a different theme I can find some similarities. I saw your Top 10 list for 2011 and it seems you have similar thoughts on Eclipse.
 
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  • Posted Wed Jan 4, 2012 1:06 pm
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