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The Cardboard Curmudgeon

Board Game and life opinions from a jaded and cyncial gamer (who still holds some idealism in his heart). Wimpy opinions need not apply.
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The Day Fantasy Flight Games jumped the shark.

Jason Farris
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Considering my last blog entry, it is no surprise that I am writing this one. At first I was tempted to tell you that Fantasy Flight Games jumped the shark recently, As I’ve still been buying their games. But really, they jumped the Shark about two months after I bought Descent: Journeys in the dark.

I was jonesing for that game after going to my first Gencon and seeing what amazing bits it had. I played a demo and it seemed very solid. I was just getting in to board games and only owned 3 euro games at this point: Tikal, Caylus, and I think Antike. The only other games in my closet were Axis and allies (GM edition), Fortress America, and Shogun (GM edition). I was pretty much into the pretty bits, big box thing. Descent was going to be my masterpiece dungeon crawl. They sold out of it while I as demoing it so I had to wait for it to hit my local game store, and wait, and wait.

Finally it arrived and the promise of infinite bits was mine. Board after board of cardboard chits. Enough plastic minis to keep me happy for a long time. I managed to get it to the table a lot during that first two months and several things became quickly apparent.First, the keeper tended to win early, or not at all, and second (tied to the first), there was no climactic battle. If the heroes made it to the final room, the bad guy was dead before it had a chance to act. Bad juju. The errata started coming out fast and heavy. Including the much needed endurance potion nerf. It only took one person writing up a way to beat he first scenario without the keeper getting a single turn to do that. Yes, it required certain abilities to show up and a certain hero, but it was doable and completely broken. Most of us had already figured out that the entire key to the game from the hero perspective was to get as many endurance potions as possible to create hideously long chains of actions. Who is going to turn down a time walk (a magic card for those in the know) that you can buy over and over. How did the designers miss this? Pages and pages of errata followed along with seemingly endless expansions with pages more of errata. My fun dungeon crawl really sucked. I refused to acknowledge this and justified how great it was by its beautiful bits and expandability.

But really, let’s be honest, the mechanics aren’t that great. And they are kind of unwieldy. The game runs long, but not because you keep encountering new stuff, and are constantly exploring. No, it runs long because of all the bits and mechanics that slow it down. I had FFG denial. They make beautiful games with lots of bits and miniatures. That is a siren’s lure that few, including myself, could avoid.
So I kept Descent and bought a few more FFG games. A pattern began to emerge. FFG games that were created by other designers or games republished with the FFG brand generally were more fun for myself and the people I played with than in house FFG games. There were far fewer rules hassles and the games ran more smoothly. War of the Ring had dense rules but nothing that was too crazy. Fury of Dracula was pretty good. Twilight Imperium sank like a stone for me as did WOW the adventure game. Starcraft seemed exciting but turned out to be generic science fiction with no real flavor of the RTS except names and flavor text.

I know that many think Corey K. is the second coming and his games can do no wrong, but they just don’t impress me. I see some clever mechanics that would make a good 90 minute game being bloated into a 3 hour bonanza of card and bits manipulation. It’s the FFG approach made real time and time again. I see their model as lots of rules for rules sake + plastic bits + more cardboard bits + cool artwork = a rich game experience.

Well I got tired of it eventually. I was tired of spending hours learning rules on the big games, only to find out there was more errata online. I got tired of playing a game whose length was measured more by pushing chits and cards than on the players actually engaging one another in the game.

And the other problem was the euro game. I agree with anyone who talks about many euro games having pasted on themes and being somewhat dry in the art department. But they had a lot of other things going for them like rules requiring little to no errata. Smooth game play. Near constant player engagement and shorter play time. These make FFG games look very bloated. I hate to compare this to Android vs Apple (I am an android phone fan who owns an Ipad), but euro games just work.

The last game I bought from Fantasy Flight Games was Mansions of Madness. I’m a Lovecraft fan and was sorely disappointed with Arkham Horror for being too much board game and not enough Lovecraft. Mansions seemed Ideal. But then the FFG syndrome crept in immediately. Errata, misprinied cards, map pictures that were inaccurate. The sealed room fiasco. Are you kidding me? Years later and FFG has the exact same problems they had with Descent. The company has become the 500 pound gorilla of the specialty board game world. This sort of problem makes evil empires like Hasbro look like saints. Hasbro is producing games that directly compete with FFG and their games are more stable and work better. What's next? Dogs and cats living together?

Meanwhile, the European designers are starting to get more theme into their games, plastic bits, and chits, but are still streamlining rules to make games accessible. Some are even creeping up into the 3 hour mark and longer. And they are enjoyable, engaging experiences.

I know that FFG has nothing to worry about in the short term. They are an established brand and have a following. They even have their supporters convinced that misprints and errata are entirely acceptable to any game. They can fix a broken game with an expansion and will be praised for it. And some of their games do come out relatively whole (I love my FFG Dungeonquest without the terrible combat rules).

However, I think in the long term this problematic. This is a niche market experiencing a bubble of sorts. There are more games coming out than ever before and people are consuming them increasingly despite a down economy. This means that people have more choices and the cream will rise to the top. A pretty box with cool bits may make you a single sale, but terrible rules and unwinnable scenarios may lose you a repeat buy. Not everyone is part of the cult of FFG. With smarter, more thematic euros, who really needs FFG?

Let me offer an alternative to the equation noted earlier. Bad rules + broken games+ cheaper components (anyone else notice this on newer games?) + redundant artwork = recycled crap.

If anyone from FFG is reading this, why can’t get your house in order? You’ve had years to do this. I don’t care if the problem is the rules writers, playtesters, computer jockeys, artists, or the kid that brings you coffee. Fix it. We all know there is human error and other publishers deal with it. Why haven’t you? Just for emphasis, THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR YEARS. Whose head is in the sand that this cannot change? Even if you are making money hand over fist, why wouldn’t you want to improve customer experience and brand loyalty?
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Subscribe sub options Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:48 pm
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Max Fightmaster
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Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
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  • Posted Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:00 pm
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Jason Farris
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Grift wrote:
Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.


It is a blog
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  • Posted Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:39 pm
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Roy Thomson
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I couldn't agree more with the OP. FFG got me into gaming and FFG problems described above has turned me off to the point where I enjoy Euro's much more for precisely what was stated above.

The thought of pulling any FFG game from the shelf (of which I have many)to play makes me cringe.

I guess if you play something a little different and a little more streamlined without all the errata crapola, it can really open your eyes to the pain that is FFG.

Just sayin....
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  • Posted Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:56 pm
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Frank La Terra
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"But really, let’s be honest, the mechanics aren’t that great. And they are kind of unwieldy."

Speak for yourself. It's the greatest dungeoncrawl ever made, and I have played most of them. You can play that D&D rubbish, I'll stick to quality game design, not everyone gets a hardon for 'steamlining'.

I love the fact all of the FFG haters seem to have a shelves full of them.
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  • Posted Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:43 pm
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kris gorham
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FUNNY , i made a post claiming the same thing about FFG publishing of Dust Tactics , several months ago .

my experience with FFG has soured me on anything they make .

i am a dust tactics fan , the original dust tactics , that was originaly produced by AEG . what FFG is doing with it is just to try and make a bridge to a WH40K clone (DustWarfare), written by a former GW employee , bringing in rules and mechanics from the least popular edition of WH40K made .and in the proscess , they are dragging DT into it . they dont care if DT starts to fail , as long as DW launches .

now for those not into Dust Tactics , the original starter was published and produced by AEG , but for what ever reason , BEFORE it was released , FFG got it back . for those with the first edition of the game , if you scratch over the FFG logos on the box , turns out its just a sticker they put on the boxes over the AEG ones .

so since the release of DT , it was my first real experience with FFG , but since that time , i cant throw a rock at a game night without hitting some one that has their own story about how FFG screwed up one of their favorite games .



i have since been a very vocal critic of FFG , and even elicited a response from their CEO Christian . pretty much all his answers pointed to the idea that

1)FFG doesnt care what the customers think

2) have no idea what the customers want beyond the limited number that attend their FFG event center at their headquarters

3) have no idea what is going on in their own company , and dont pay much attention to their emails outside of a few of the accounts

4)pay little if any attention to their own forums

5)if a customer has a problem with FFG ; its probably the customers fault for what ever the problem is .

6) they think their customers are as dumb as a rock , and will buy what ever EXCUSE FFG makes up to justify giving the customers the shaft .

they seem to live in an ivory tower . while the brown nosers fell all over him praising his responses , there were some people that posted AFTERWARD that gave their own examples in support of my list of complaints that proved my points , AND if they actually read their own forums , would see that my complaints are the same complaints that are made by A LOT of people on A LOT of their forums .

i would suggest that FFG didnt "jump the shark" , that would suggest that they are activly trying to do something to stay on top . to me , it seems more like they have been on top long enough that they dont care what the little people (customers) think , and seem to feel that they are on top , and that they will always be there no matter what schlock they pump out , because they dont think anyone will ever topple them .

just look at their catalog , most of the games they are publishing arent new ideas , they are some one elses idea rehashed to try and make a quick buck : all the GW titles , Nexus Ops , Fortress America , etc......... the lost Wings of War , whiich they were only DISTRIBUTING , and even Dust Tactics is written by an Italian company , whose rules are changed as FFG deems necessary to bolster their upcoming DustWarFare brand , and God only knows what pile of crud they will make AT-43 into when they decide to relaunch it under their own lable .
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  • Edited Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:18 am
  • Posted Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:01 am
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Robert Wilmesmeier
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I pretty much have the same opinion of Descent as the OP, although I think it is actually better than HQ, AHQ and WQ. For your information, a new version of Descent is in the works, with streamlined play, so I think I might sell my old edition and get the new one once it has been released next year.
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  • Posted Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:15 am
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Larry Rice
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Particularly since FFG games are readily available in the USA, I no longer purchase their games right out of the gate. I wait until I see all the reviews and find out just how much errata, printing errors, bloat, etc there is before jumping in on a game. I still think they've done some great stuff which I enjoy including Fury of Dracula, Tribune, Cosmic Encounter, Ingenious, Doom with the expansion, and I still want to play Starcraft sometime and perhaps Rune Wars, but I find the games that appeal to me that they produce are generally no in-house designs. I also find I am getting crankier as I get older... I don't want to read long rule sets and never find an answer to a question, play scenarios that don't appear play tested, etc. I want a finished, streamlined product. I don't mind chrome, but that chrome had better work!
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  • Posted Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:24 am
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Max Fightmaster
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Smilinbrax wrote:
Grift wrote:
Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.


It is a blog



Obviously you're not a golfer.
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  • Posted Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:44 am
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Yours Truly,
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Smilinbrax wrote:
Grift wrote:
Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.


It is a blog


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  • Posted Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:06 am
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kris gorham
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Mr Skeletor wrote:
"But really, let’s be honest, the mechanics aren’t that great. And they are kind of unwieldy."

Speak for yourself. It's the greatest dungeoncrawl ever made, and I have played most of them.


well if you have played MOST of them , not ALL of them , then even YOU cant say its the greatest of them all , and you dont dispute anything he says with evidence of your own , so you really dont have a point .

Mr Skeletor wrote:
"You can play that D&D rubbish, I'll stick to quality game design, not everyone gets a hardon for 'steamlining'.


i have a friend who likes complicated poorly written games , amusingly , he refudses to learn them him self , and requires some one to teach him all the rules .

but the simple fact is that when people play a game that IS streamlined , they have more fun .

Mr Skeletor wrote:
"I love the fact all of the FFG haters seem to have a shelves full of them.


yes , its amusing until you realize that those "haters" were once FANS like you till they got tired of wasting money and said "no more " . if you disagree with him , provide your own evidence , something the FFG rabid vocal minority seems unable to do .
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  • Posted Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:49 am
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GrandInquisitorKris wrote:

well if you have played MOST of them , not ALL of them , then even YOU cant say its the greatest of them all , and you dont dispute anything he says with evidence of your own , so you really dont have a point .



I have played all of the ones of note. Descent is better. My word is law.

Mr Skeletor wrote:

i have a friend who likes complicated poorly written games , amusingly , he refudses to learn them him self , and requires some one to teach him all the rules .


So? He's not my friend.

Quote:
but the simple fact is that when people play a game that IS streamlined , they have more fun .


What 'people'?
TTR fans maybe.

Mr Skeletor wrote:

yes , its amusing until you realize that those "haters" were once FANS like you till they got tired of wasting money and said "no more " . if you disagree with him , provide your own evidence , something the FFG rabid vocal minority seems unable to do .


Evidence of what? Your tastes suck? That's subjective.

But still, lets see which dungeon crawl is king of them all...

D&D games: fucking crap. next.
WarhammerQuest: unbalanced, plays itself, most nonsense AI of all time. Dated. Next
Advanced Heroquest: Great, but way underdeveloped and incomplete. Next.
Heroquest: Fantastic when I was 10. Next
Space Hulk: Not enough variety, missions end up becoming solvable puzzles due to lack of chaos. Next.
Doom: Magniofico, but decsent has more. Next.
Dragonstrike. Awesome video. Game is fun if odd. Not quite a classic. Next.
Catacombs. Love it, but its more of a novelty. Next.
Space Crusade: Fun but dated. Next
Siege of the citadel: Fantastic but descent is more rewarding. Next.

Feel free to mention the ones I missed.

Descent - so fucking good that when second edition was announced the prices of stuff for 1st ed went UP instead of down. Yeah that's a really hated game.
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  • Posted Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:47 am
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Surya Van Lierde is pure Eurosnoot and proud of it!
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I started out by playing and buying quite a few of their games in the beginning too, but then decided that I actually was a eurogamer and that most of their games wouldn't do it for me, so I didn't see it as them jumping the shark or whatever, it was just that I came to terms with my own taste Hooray for pasted on themes!
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  • Posted Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:00 am
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Gert Meyer
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I won't argue against your opinion on the games mentioned since your criticisms are valid even though for me they don't quite break the games to the extent that you feel they do.

However, I do think that you have completely left out several of what I consider FFG's best in-house designs in recent years. Chaos in the Old World, Battlestar Galactica, and Civilization are all fantastic games that I will play over any typical euro anytime. And I'm in NO way a eurogame hater.

Edit: I do concur that they need to vastly improve their playtesting and proof reading.
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  • Edited Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:17 am
  • Posted Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:16 am
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kris gorham
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Mr Skeletor wrote:
GrandInquisitorKris wrote:

well if you have played MOST of them , not ALL of them , then even YOU cant say its the greatest of them all , and you dont dispute anything he says with evidence of your own , so you really dont have a point .



I have played all of the ones of note. Descent is better. My word is law.

Mr Skeletor wrote:

i have a friend who likes complicated poorly written games , amusingly , he refudses to learn them him self , and requires some one to teach him all the rules .


So? He's not my friend.

Quote:
but the simple fact is that when people play a game that IS streamlined , they have more fun .


What 'people'?
TTR fans maybe.

Mr Skeletor wrote:

yes , its amusing until you realize that those "haters" were once FANS like you till they got tired of wasting money and said "no more " . if you disagree with him , provide your own evidence , something the FFG rabid vocal minority seems unable to do .


Evidence of what? Your tastes suck? That's subjective.

But still, lets see which dungeon crawl is king of them all...

D&D games: fucking crap. next.
WarhammerQuest: unbalanced, plays itself, most nonsense AI of all time. Dated. Next
Advanced Heroquest: Great, but way underdeveloped and incomplete. Next.
Heroquest: Fantastic when I was 10. Next
Space Hulk: Not enough variety, missions end up becoming solvable puzzles due to lack of chaos. Next.
Doom: Magniofico, but decsent has more. Next.
Dragonstrike. Awesome video. Game is fun if odd. Not quite a classic. Next.
Catacombs. Love it, but its more of a novelty. Next.
Space Crusade: Fun but dated. Next
Siege of the citadel: Fantastic but descent is more rewarding. Next.

Feel free to mention the ones I missed.

Descent - so fucking good that when second edition was announced the prices of stuff for 1st ed went UP instead of down. Yeah that's a really hated game.


a perfect example of why FFG wont improve anything , their target audience of children dont know the dif. between a good game , and a box full of eye candy with a schlock game .

rabid fans like this one are the ones companies like FFG listens to , and why they dont get better over time , but rather start pumping out crud , because they know he will buy it no matter what .
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  • Posted Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:31 am
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kris gorham
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gert74 wrote:
I won't argue against your opinion on the games mentioned since your criticisms are valid even though for me they don't quite break the games to the extent that you feel they do.

However, I do think that you have completely left out several of what I consider FFG's best in-house designs in recent years. Chaos in the Old World, Battlestar Galactica, and Civilization are all fantastic games that I will play over any typical euro anytime. And I'm in NO way a eurogame hater.

Edit: I do concur that they need to vastly improve their playtesting and proof reading.


While Chaos in the Old World my be their design , i think its another example of their lack of originality since it is based on material from GW . Its another example of them taking some one elses material and rehashing it into their own take on it .

and i would like to try Battlestar Galactica , but i refuse to simply because its a FFG release .

while those few games may be well written NOW , the concern is that given enough time ; they will screw it up like so many other of their titles , as they expand further . its an issue of expansions potentially ruining the original .

and just haveing a few successes , or even some really SUPER games only makes the mistakes and sloppy execution of other games stand out even more .

this is the same thing that took Wizkids down the first time , and something that will take them down a second time the way things seem to be going there once again .

i do not believe they are past the point of no return , but FFG doesnt seem to be interested in fixing things when they make money and get kudos from their rabid vocal minority that will buy their games no matter how messed up the game is .

and the OP doesnt seem to suggest that EURO games are better , in general , right now . just that they are better written , more thoughtout , better executed , and are getting better . given enough time , they WILL be every bit as rich and themeatic as those released by FFG . when that point is reached , companies like FFG that dont want to improve , will fall hard , because they wont have enough of their rabid minority of super fans to make up for the sales they will lose to competition that IS willing to do the game right the FIRST time , not just FAQ it to death afterwards .
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  • Posted Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:38 pm
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Frank La Terra
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GrandInquisitorKris wrote:

a perfect example of why FFG wont improve anything , their target audience of children dont know the dif. between a good game , and a box full of eye candy with a schlock game .


That is your counter argument? Wow, you're done champ. Next.
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  • Posted Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:07 pm
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kris gorham
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Mr Skeletor wrote:
GrandInquisitorKris wrote:

a perfect example of why FFG wont improve anything , their target audience of children dont know the dif. between a good game , and a box full of eye candy with a schlock game .


That is your counter argument? Wow, you're done champ. Next.


you've already said your "word is law" , so you dont care about the conversation , beyond how much trolling it takes for you to get attention .

as far as you are concerned , every one else doesnt matter , and apparently is to dumb to listen to , which is funny since i never heard of you , and would expect that some one as important as you seem to think you are would be president of the world or something , but you're not .

so i am done wasting time with you , but have fun with your trolling , it seems to be all you have outside of your blind devotion to FFG , and lack of social skills or critical thinking .
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  • Posted Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:49 pm
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GrandInquisitorKris wrote:
a perfect example of why FFG wont improve anything , their target audience of children dont know the dif. between a good game , and a box full of eye candy with a schlock game .

rabid fans like this one are the ones companies like FFG listens to , and why they dont get better over time , but rather start pumping out crud , because they know he will buy it no matter what .

Seriously? Just because you don't like something isn't license for you to call an entire fanbase children who don't know what they're playing.

Are you any better than someone who buys something just because it's FFG? You categorically reject all FFG games - same thing, really. You've invalidated your own opinion by contradicting yourself.
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  • Edited Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:15 pm
  • Posted Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:15 pm
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Grift wrote:
Smilinbrax wrote:
Grift wrote:
Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.


It is a blog



Obviously you're not a golfer.


Ah, now I see. great movie!


Mr Skeletor wrote:
"But really, let’s be honest, the mechanics aren’t that great. And they are kind of unwieldy."

Speak for yourself. It's the greatest dungeoncrawl ever made, and I have played most of them. You can play that D&D rubbish, I'll stick to quality game design, not everyone gets a hardon for 'steamlining'.

I love the fact all of the FFG haters seem to have a shelves full of them.


I won't bother debating you Frank, it looks like you already have plenty of other people doing that across multiple forums. I do speak for myself and I do think FFG needs to get a clue. If you think the endurance potion trick was not blatantly obvious and should have been caught in play testing, we clearly exist at different levels.

I will ask one question though. don't you wish your favorite game company would at least take the time to do serious proofing and release polished products?
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  • Posted Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:08 pm
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GrandInquisitorKris wrote:
which is funny since i never heard of you ,


You must be new then.


Smilinbrax wrote:

I will ask one question though. don't you wish your favorite game company would at least take the time to do serious proofing and release polished products?


The majority of their products are polished. There are some where they have dropped the ball (Mansions of Madness, Battles of Westeros) and in those cases I am more than happy to point out they screwed up. But it's a case by case basis.

Claiming they jumped the shark just after descent is absurd. They have dropped plenty of stellar A+ releases since then. Unless you are a euro fan (and thus not really their target audience) I just don't see any other company that is keeping up or comes close to having such a strong catalouge. You yourself admit that you keep buying their stuff. If they were as crap as you say you wouldn't be.
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  • Posted Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:44 pm
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Mr Skeletor wrote:
. You yourself admit that you keep buying their stuff. If they were as crap as you say you wouldn't be.


That admission was one of shame. I will not fault FFG's ambition and I have been sucked up in it a time or two. Nowadays, I tend only buy their stuff when it hits a Barnes and Noble clearance. THen I trade it in math trades. I doubt mansions will see another play, so it will likely trade as well.

They are too big a company and have really moved into importing and publishing too many euro games for me to entirely avoid them.
 
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Smilinbrax wrote:
They are too big a company and have really moved into importing and publishing too many euro games for me to entirely avoid them.


So basically your blog post is the equivalent of me ranting about Mayfare jumping the shark after settlers.
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  • Posted Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:42 pm
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I really don't have a dog in this fight, but I will say +1 to Chaos in the Old World and Battlestar Galactica. I think both are great designs and I'm always ready to play both of them. Battlestar may be a bit long, but the tension in the game seems to make up for any length proglems.

I haven't played Civilization so I can't comment.

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  • Posted Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:47 pm
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Mr Skeletor wrote:
Smilinbrax wrote:
They are too big a company and have really moved into importing and publishing too many euro games for me to entirely avoid them.


So basically your blog post is the equivalent of me ranting about Mayfare jumping the shark after settlers.


*sigh*
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  • Posted Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:32 pm
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ScottB wrote:
GrandInquisitorKris wrote:
a perfect example of why FFG wont improve anything , their target audience of children dont know the dif. between a good game , and a box full of eye candy with a schlock game .

rabid fans like this one are the ones companies like FFG listens to , and why they dont get better over time , but rather start pumping out crud , because they know he will buy it no matter what .

Seriously? Just because you don't like something isn't license for you to call an entire fanbase children who don't know what they're playing.

Are you any better than someone who buys something just because it's FFG? You categorically reject all FFG games - same thing, really. You've invalidated your own opinion by contradicting yourself.


i didnt call their entire fan base children , just their target audience , like mr. skeletor , who doesnt want to converse , just troll for attention .

and , to your question , yes , i am better than some one who buys something JUST because its from a particular company , because i actually LOOK at the products before i buy them , i put thought into the purchase , and thus try to support better products , and not just throw money at a company that doesnt care .

that is precisly why FFG has no incentive to raise standards or do better , because they know they can put a turd in a box , and those rabid fans will buy it , even if they know its a turd , just because it has their logo on it .

and my refusal to buy more FFG titles is not just based on my experience , but also because i cant throw a rock here on game nights without hitting some one who has their own story about how FFG has/is screwing up their favorite games in a variety of ways . and rather than just discount them because they dont have rosey reviews , i listen and consider what they have said , and with few exceptions , i have to agree that their issues are valid , and enough to make FFG a general waste of money .

while there are a few games that i only hear great things about like BSG , based on FFG current policies and direction , i have no doubt that they will scew it up some how if given enough time , so why spend money now if it will just frustrate me and prove to be a waste later ? i can save my money and spend it on a game that the company actually put effort into making a quality product .

as i said , i dont think FFG has reached the point of no return in fixing the problems that people are complaining about . BUT they dont seem to be interested in fixing them , or even admitting/considering that there may be a problem . they are only interested in pushing full speed ahead to churn out another title , and if you look at the announcement threads for their new titles , like the nexus ops , there are plenty of people who like wise wont be buying it simply because its FFG doing it .

if at some point FFG changed course and started fixing the problems , both those on their staff that allowed this schlock through , and the products them selves , i would reconsider , but they arent , so ......

believe it or not , there are a lot of people who have complaints about FFG , not just me , not just this thread , and not just this game . and there is a GROWING number of people who are starting to refuse to spend money on FFG .
 
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  • Posted Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:18 pm
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I'm a fan of Descent and I certainly see where the OP is coming from. Early adopters felt less like owners and more like playtesters, with all the rule changes and edits. Each expansion (and I own most of them) tweaked the rules yet again.

My group was 20+ hours into a Road to Legend campaign and we had so many unanswered rule issues come up that we killed the campaign. soblue

My problem with Mansions of Madness is that it's too much like Road to Legend, without any of the necessary fixes.

But my group plays a lot of FFG games. In particular, I've been very pleased with Cosmic Encounter and Battlestar Galactica.
 
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  • Posted Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:36 am
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GrandInquisitorKris wrote:
i didnt call their entire fan base children , just their target audience , like mr. skeletor , who doesnt want to converse , just troll for attention .

I couldn't hear the rest of your post over the blaring irony.
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  • Posted Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:22 am
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I have noticed that while I enthusiastically have purchased a number of FF games over the years they almost always end up getting traded or sold.
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  • Posted Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:27 pm
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I really enjoyed this blog post - well written and well thought out. Great presentation as well.

As far as FFG goes, they are just like every single other board game publisher out there. Some of their stuff is great, others not so much.

The thing is, when you get to be a big fish in the gaming industry, you start publishing games in the tens if not hundreds of thousands, and you start looking at the bottom line as the volume of your sales, and not so much the customer satisfaction.

Say what you will about the rage some people have over their games, but as loud as some of it may be, it is still a very, very small portion of their customer base. The vast majority of people will buy their releases, and play them as is, without ever hitting up BGG for a rules question, or logging into FFG's site for help with something.

And they will probably love the hell out of the game, because the presentation (i.e cool looking pastic figures) and theme will bring them a great deal of happiness.

I am sure that FFG could spend more time with their errata and troubleshoot their games a bit more, but they don't have to! Proofreading and playtesting costs money. Every day that a game is in development counts against the final bottom dollar that release will bring. FFG is in this for the money - as most companies are - and while we can all rail against our perceived issues with their practices, as long as these problems cut into their profits at acceptable levels, they are not going to change anytime soon.

Frank put it quite well a post or three above this one. Lots of people take FFG to task for their rulebooks, or the clunkiness of their designs, but these same people sometimes have a half dozen or more FFG games on their shelves, and honestly, the people that don't have any on their shelves aren't anyone FFG is trying to impress anyway.

I heartily endorse the message the author is putting forward here, and I truly wish it would have the desired effect they are looking for, but I just don't see it happening, just like I don't see myself not purchasing several more FFG games in 2012.
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  • Edited Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:11 pm
  • Posted Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:39 pm
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FFG has, for better or worse, morphed to fill an important void in the boardgame industry.

They used to be the plucky startup that had a few good properties to their name and made a few great licensing decisions.

They have turned into a game company that provides:

1 - Loveable licensed content games (LoTR, George RR Martin, Gears of War, Star Wars, etc.)

2 - They produce games that appeal mainly to casual gamers who want a bit more than a "kid game" they could get from Hasbro/Wizards of the Coast.

3 - They have the luxury of printing some nostalgia titles for games (Talisman, Nexus Ops, Fortress America) because they KNOW they're printing money and they know they're virtually the only company that can actually pull off the "bits" that are necessary to make these games a success.

I used to be a much bigger fan of FFG, but I can't actually say that's changed too much other than I'm not keen on the topics for many of their titles. Thadd used to be (probably still is) one of the best customer service guys in the business.

If FFG is turning out untested stuff, I'd have to say its only a reflection of their rigorous publishing schedule! Keep in mind how much NEW content is coming from them on a monthly basis. They're beating Wizards of the Coast in terms of frequency of new and different content and they're nowhere near as large.

You are definitely entitled to your opinion, but let's face it...a lot of gamers who morph into more hardcore gamers had their entre to boardgaming with an FFG title. I for one will cut them some slack and applaud their commitment to publishing the things a broad spectrum of folks want to see. That takes money, guts, and a seriously well constructed business to do what they do as regularly as they're doing.
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  • Posted Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:59 pm
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Errata, misprinied cards, map pictures that were inaccurate. The sealed room fiasco. Are you kidding me?


You mean like this?

http://fortressat.com/index.php/forum/10-ameritrash/110985-m...

 
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UndeadViking wrote:
I really enjoyed this blog post - well written and well thought out. Great presentation as well.

As far as FFG goes, they are just like every single other board game publisher out there. Some of their stuff is great, others not so much.

The thing is, when you get to be a big fish in the gaming industry, you start publishing games in the tens if not hundreds of thousands, and you start looking at the bottom line as the volume of your sales, and not so much the customer satisfaction.

Say what you will about the rage some people have over their games, but as loud as some of it may be, it is still a very, very small portion of their customer base. The vast majority of people will buy their releases, and play them as is, without ever hitting up BGG for a rules question, or logging into FFG's site for help with something.

And they will probably love the hell out of the game, because the presentation (i.e cool looking pastic figures) and theme will bring them a great deal of happiness.

I am sure that FFG could spend more time with their errata and troubleshoot their games a bit more, but they don't have to! Proofreading and playtesting costs money. Every day that a game is in development counts against the final bottom dollar that release will bring. FFG is in this for the money - as most companies are - and while we can all rail against our perceived issues with their practices, as long as these problems cut into their profits at acceptable levels, they are not going to change anytime soon.

Frank put it quite well a post or three above this one. Lots of people take FFG to task for their rulebooks, or the clunkiness of their designs, but these same people sometimes have a half dozen or more FFG games on their shelves, and honestly, the people that don't have any on their shelves aren't anyone FFG is trying to impress anyway.

I heartily endorse the message the author is putting forward here, and I truly wish it would have the desired effect they are looking for, but I just don't see it happening, just like I don't see myself not purchasing several more FFG games in 2012.


I still have many FFG titles on my owned list. Several, waiting to be traded and some that just don't hit the table much. They got their money from me in the past, but it's looking grim for them in the future. If they continue to have credibility problems, then it will likely affect their reputation as a whole, even when they do put out a good game.

I brought up Hasbro because their recent D&D games are going head to head with FFG. They have the art and the bits. Whether you are like Frank who hates them or not, they are definite competition and with far fewer glaring problems. While each game is not particularly complicated, they each have new mechanics that build onto this system. Hasbro is a huge publisher but manages to make less mistakes on its titles. I hate making the evil gaming empire seem like a good guy, but they are starting to put out some good games.

I've been looking at adding a nice fantasy war game to my collection. I can buy rune wars or conquest of nerath. I know conquest is not as ambitious but that also looks to be a smooth, well designed game. The rules have enough depth for me to get the fantasy feel I am looking for. I knew nothing about rune wars having problems until it was mentioned in this thread, but I had already decided on conquest anyway because I just assumed rune wars would be a mess. That's the power of reputation.
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  • Posted Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:29 pm
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Conquest of Nerath is pretty awful - very uninspired gameplay. If you are dead set against trying Rune Wars, which is awesome, I strongly suggest you look into Warparty when it comes out in a few months from Lock N Load Publishing. I reviewed the prototype when it was in Kickstarter and it was immensely fun.

The D&D boardgames are really bad as well, plus to compare them to FFG components is laughable. The figures themselves may be comparable, but nothing else is. Dungeon tiles that are so drab they may as well be in black and white, cards that might as well have no color whatsoever...as I said, no comparison.

The one thing the D&D games have going for them is that they are exceedingly simple rule set, so they appeal to the more casual gamer. I am not a casual gamer, so I would much rather play something with a lot more meat on it.
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  • Posted Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:41 pm
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I consider myself a well rounded gamer, and while there are many FFG games i like, there are a lot that i have not been very fond of (Mansions of madness is terrible). However, FFG has been my favorite game companies and i feel like they continue to put out great games with great components. Have they messed up? Sure, but tell me what other publisher hasn't messed up a few times? They are just a bigger target due to how many successful games that have had, and how big of a company they are.
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  • Posted Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:52 pm
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UndeadViking wrote:
Conquest of Nerath is pretty awful - very uninspired gameplay. If you are dead set against trying Rune Wars, which is awesome, I strongly suggest you look into Warparty when it comes out in a few months from Lock N Load Publishing. I reviewed the prototype when it was in Kickstarter and it was immensely fun.

The D&D boardgames are really bad as well, plus to compare them to FFG components is laughable. The figures themselves may be comparable, but nothing else is. Dungeon tiles that are so drab they may as well be in black and white, cards that might as well have no color whatsoever...as I said, no comparison.

The one thing the D&D games have going for them is that they are exceedingly simple rule set, so they appeal to the more casual gamer. I am not a casual gamer, so I would much rather play something with a lot more meat on it.


Lance, are you talking about Castle Ravenloft, Wrath of Ashardalon, and the Legend of Drizzt?
 
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  • Posted Sat Dec 24, 2011 8:52 pm
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Conquest of Nerath is pretty awful - very uninspired gameplay. If you are dead set against trying Rune Wars, which is awesome, I strongly suggest you look into Warparty when it comes out in a few months from Lock N Load Publishing. I reviewed the prototype when it was in Kickstarter and it was immensely fun.

The D&D boardgames are really bad as well, plus to compare them to FFG components is laughable. The figures themselves may be comparable, but nothing else is. Dungeon tiles that are so drab they may as well be in black and white, cards that might as well have no color whatsoever...as I said, no comparison.

The one thing the D&D games have going for them is that they are exceedingly simple rule set, so they appeal to the more casual gamer. I am not a casual gamer, so I would much rather play something with a lot more meat on it.


Also CoN has a printing error in the form of the double sided reference sheet that you are supposed to store cards on (huh!?!) Not a big deal since you can put the cards on the table, but if we are nitpicking FFG you have to do the same to hasbro.
As many mistakes as MoM has, it was still less than Betrayal on the House on the Hill, it's closest Hasbro competitor.


Anyway if you don't like em don't buy em. That's what I do with the Hasbro stuff since I realised they don't make games targeted to me.
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  • Posted Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:17 pm
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While I agree with the sentiment, Descent seems like a special case. Sure it has a lot of flaws, but I haven't found a better dungeon crawler yet. And believe me I'm looking.

FFG does, every once in a while, come out with a couple of internal gems: I'm having a blast with Game of Thrones LCG. And Death Angel is a pretty fun solo experience. And they certainly pick good 'external' releases. Tribune is just absolutely fantastic. Blue Moon is my favorite L/CCG-type card game.
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  • Edited Sun Dec 25, 2011 4:25 am
  • Posted Sun Dec 25, 2011 4:25 am
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And they certainly pick good 'external' releases. Tribune is just absolutely fantastic. Blue Moon is my favorite L/CCG-type card game.


Let's not forget Through the Desert.
I agree--for all of FFG's faults, they have given us Americans some great Euros. For that I am thankful.
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  • Posted Sun Dec 25, 2011 4:37 am
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Gyges wrote:
... they have given us Americans some great Euros.


Yessir, they have! Citadels, Condottiere, Ingenious, Colossal Arena, Cold War, Ad Astra, Drakon ... all very solid games and much-requested 'round these parts.

And some of their re-releases have been fantastic. There isn't a better version of Cosmic Encounter out there ...
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  • Posted Sun Dec 25, 2011 4:56 am
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GrandInquisitorKris wrote:
as far as you are concerned , every one else doesnt matter , and apparently is to dumb to listen to , which is funny since i never heard of you



Skelly has done more for boardgaming than you're likely to dream of; like the caveman says, "Next time, do a little research..."
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  • Posted Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:55 pm
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Jumped the shark? Not a chance.

Lacks attention to details that should otherwise not be approved for print? Most certainly.

This considerable drawback lies in the fact that FFG does not do much outside playtesting. More on this at the end of my post/point though, so please bear with me.

Exascerabted by another fact that they seem to not realize is that their harshest critics are more often than not their most rabid fans. They expect much of FFG because they know what FFG are capable of, even if they do not deliver to the point where FFG like to call themselves "Leaders of the industry". Because if their playtest/proofreading/etc is the example that other publishers are supposed to follow, then I hope FFG stops leading straightaway.

Another fact is that you will never get a job with FFG if you have criticized them, nor will you be offered a playtest position.

That is critical since if you know any of FFG's employees in a personal manner, you will note a distinct lack of ANY sort of criticism of their products.

I have asked many of their employees what they think of certain titles and have NEVER heard a criticism. Only politic back handed compliments. One example would be: "So what do you think of the Anima tactics RPG" Response after many moments careful consideration: "Well, it's very pretty."

I raise that point to further my own point which is: FFG (or maybe just Christian Peterson) simply cannot take criticism, no matter how well formed or constructive the criticism is.

It is my beleif that their employees are deathly afraid of losing their jobs for saying anything that might be construed as even remotely critical. So often a refusal to comment at all is made.

Look at Thaad's farewell thread where she acknowledges how she can at least post on BGG again.

Now if you think that such a work environemnt is conducive to working out playtesting and proofreading problems to the point where they are at least workable without considerable errata, then you are buying games from the wrong company.

Those issues have only grown recently, for some reason that I cannot fathom or claim to even guess.

I have just accepted the fact that FFG dont make games for people like me, even though they are the company who could produce my ideal type of games. Lots of great art. Oodles of terrific dollies. Interesting premises for their games.

They do not produce games for gamers who are discerning. They produce games for the casual player who likely will never see the flaws since they have no idea they are flaws in the first place.

Just look at the mansions of madness threads where many posters claim they have never had one single problem with the game at all, ever. After many many supposed plays.

But even the owner of FFG has said on a couple occassions on different sites on the web that the game has 'unacceptable' problems.

No, the problem is deep inside FFG and I am not sure if it is a problem they can correct. Perhaps if CP was to admit that criticism of FFG can only help them, not hinder them.

FFG are merely a company that exists. They are not a company that excels in revolutionary game innovation.

Much like Games Workshop's top 2 wargames, FFG's game designs are "just good enough" for most people. I love mansions of madness, or at least the idea behind the game. But I am pretty tired of retreaded ideas as Original by their designers.

I just accept them for what they are and proceed to look for game companies and games that do cater to my style.
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  • Edited Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:08 pm
  • Posted Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:00 pm
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Colorcrayons
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franklincobb wrote:
GrandInquisitorKris wrote:
as far as you are concerned , every one else doesnt matter , and apparently is to dumb to listen to , which is funny since i never heard of you



Skelly has done more for boardgaming than you're likely to dream of; like the caveman says, "Next time, do a little research..."

Agreed. Frank has done an enormous amount for the community. Too bad it's all gone due to the deletion of his account.

So which is more relevant? Him actually being a phenominal contributing member? Or just the unresearchable contributions that he has made now live only in memory or the hard drives of the long time members?
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  • Posted Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:34 pm
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Gert Meyer
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LordHellfury wrote:
This considerable drawback lies in the fact that FFG does not do much outside playtesting.


This. A thousand times this!

While I seemingly came to the defense of FFG above it is mainly because I believe the good outweighs the bad, not that I am blind to their flaws.

I work in software and one of the cardinal rules of software testing (that is sadly too often ignored) is that to be considered finished your program must pass a test by a user with NO prior experience with it. If the tester knows too much about how it SHOULD work their brain will simply automatically work around any issues. Same reason you should never proofread your own writing.

But unlike software, you cannot seamlessly patch a boardgame. No amount of errata and FAQ's is going to fix the hassle of working around misprinted components or player aids.

Just take my favorite game, Chaos in the Old World. One of the absolutely core components - the player board for one of the chaos gods - has the wrong dial advancement condition on it. I cannot tell you how enormous a stumbling block this has been EVERY single time I have tried to introduce this game to new players. Almost everyone has loved the game in the end, but it is a very bad way to start out.
 
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  • Edited Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:01 pm
  • Posted Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:59 am
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Michael Buccheri
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Glen Arm
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Quote:


Meanwhile, the European designers are starting to get more theme into their games, plastic bits, and chits, but are still streamlining rules to make games accessible. Some are even creeping up into the 3 hour mark and longer. And they are enjoyable, engaging experiences.


I would like to point out that this is in part due to the success that FFG has had with lager more open game.

I would also like to point out that for those of us who like large chrome filled games that these games still miss the mark, and often miss the mark for fans of short tight euro games.

FFG does what FFG does, some of their stuff is good, some sucks, many need patches over time, other don't. It is absolutely foolish for anyone to wish them to change what they do. FFG has been leading the way in long eye candy laden games that go against the current streamline trend for a while. This is good for the hobby, and has clearly started to rub off on other designers, as had some of the earlier extreme streamlining had on FFG. (see the differences between TI2 and TI3 for an example).

So if someone from FFG reads this I hope you see that what we really need for you to do is KEEP PRODUCING THE TYPES OF GAMES YOU HAVE BEEN. They are the only ones doing it consistently.

-M

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  • Posted Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:04 pm
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Scott DeMers
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The D&D games, like Legend of Drizzt, is what Descent wanted to be, but did not get there. Have them both, don't touch Descent anymore. Too fiddly. Too many rules snafus.
 
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  • Posted Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:35 am
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Josiah Fiscus
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sdmers wrote:
The D&D games, like Legend of Drizzt, is what I wanted Descent to be


FTFY. Descent does exactly what it intends to do, in the length it intends to do it, and with all the fiddliness/chrome the designer desired. The existence of fanboys like Skeletor (and myself) should make that obvious. Just cause it's not your cup o' tea doesn't mean the game has failed in any way.

 
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  • Posted Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:29 pm
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Justin Fitzgerald
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Mr Skeletor wrote:
I have played all of the ones of note. Descent is better. My word is law.


Descent is best. And that's fucking sad.
 
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  • Posted Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:52 pm
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Justin Fitzgerald
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Mr Skeletor wrote:
GrandInquisitorKris wrote:
which is funny since i never heard of you ,


You must be new then.


Yeah except aren't you the guy who used to be here then made BGG delete all your posts?
 
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  • Edited Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:58 pm
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Justin Fitzgerald
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sdmers wrote:
The D&D games, like Legend of Drizzt, is what Descent wanted to be, but did not get there. Have them both, don't touch Descent anymore. Too fiddly. Too many rules snafus.


Nope, I don't think Descent was trying to be a game full of meaningless decisions.
 
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  • Posted Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:59 pm
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