I'm learning so much as a "new" ASL player that I want to get it all written up someplace in the hopes others won't have to learn what I'm learning the hard way! As with all things, there are as many ways to go about something as there are people. This blog represents my evolving views on ASL and how I've approached it.
I watched both videos back when they were fresh and followed the conversation here. I was hesitant because:
1 - I am VERY particular about my ASL collection. 2 - I have clipped counters with a toe-nail clipper for the past 15 years. In fact, the one I currently use is probably a decade old. 3 - I'm fast, and my counters look uniform. Also it's something I can do while watching TV or a movie.
I was worried that the C4 Counter Clipper would:
1 - Cut too much off my counters. 2 - Rip the paper rather than cutting it. 3 - Be too difficult to master.
In watching the videos and reading the stories from BGG I decided to just stay away...that was until my FLGS had some in stock and the owner who is an all around great guy gave it a recommendation after I pestered him about it one day.
I decided to take the plunge. I ended up buying:
1 - C4 Counter Cutter 2 - Cutting Board (not necessary for the C4 product) 3 - A set of off-brand exacto style blades and a handle
In all, it was around $40 worth of stuff. Compared to my 10 year old clippers...not off to a good start.
So I had For King & Country still sitting on my shelf unpunched. I decided that'd be a good one since I have backups with my West of Alamein in case I screw something up. Very low risk...you can see my confidence!
I have been a counter "puncher" rather than cutter since day one. I am now relieved of that burden. Quite frankly, if you take even one thing away it should be this...cut your counters off the sprues rather than tearing at them. That should be common sense, but apparently it took me far too long to "get." I'm an expert a punching even the toughest counters...I'm looking at you ASLSK Expansion Kit #1....
So I cut out the first sprue in about 5 minutes. Far faster than my previous record of 10 minutes. My fingertips weren't sore either which was a great plus!
I organized the counters and re-watched Joe's video along with Dave's video. I put 10 infantry counters in and started in on them. First stroke with the knife...clean cut. Equal sizes. No problems. I finished those first 10 counters in about 4 minutes. I spent a lot of time on each corner. So far...not faster than hand-clipping. I was also noticing a lot of what Joe said about the top counter getting a deeper cut than the bottom counters.
So...back to the drawing board here. I didn't want to progress too much farther down this road if it wasn't going to work, but I remembered people saying you get better at it as you go along so I just dove into the project.
Each group of 10 got progressively better. I also figured out how to use the knife to manipulate the counters in the jig so I could move more quickly through the corners. My best time was 2 minutes for 10 counters. That's better than I can do clipping.
I also got to the point where my corners were even.
Now...a caveat... This jig requires perfection. Some of the ASL counters are not truly square. I was kind of shocked, but there are some that are probably 1/16" off, and when it comes to trimming 1/10" off the corners...that's a big variation. So not ALL counters will get trimmed perfectly. That said, the consistency is far more scientific than most people just starting out with clipping using toe-nail clippers!!!!
So why endorse the product?
1 - I wasn't paid, and I don't have a "dog in the fight" about whether you use the C-4 Counter Clipper or not. 2 - I finished cutting, clipping, and organizing For King and Country in a day rather than a weekend. 3 - I'm VERY particular about the care of my games and the C-4 surpassed my expectations. My house is overrun with planos of every shape and size and my game-boxes typically only hold the spare parts (sprues, inserts, etc.) because I also buy custom storage for boards, and bits...regardless of game.
It can't be ALL good!!!
No...it's not.
1 - You will wear your blade down and I've not seen anywhere to buy just the replacement blades...so that is going to be pricey. 2 - Any little bit you cut that gets jammed into the jig can throw off your cuts, so you must be vigilant to keep the jig clean. 3 - If you don't angle the blade right (it takes practice) your cuts will not be consistent. 4 - This is not a 1 size fits all solution. What works for me may not work for everyone.
Overall though, I couldn't be more pleased with the C-4 Counter Cutter and I'm thrilled that I can now get through that backlog of unpunched counters. PTO...here I come!!
ASL ... yes, this is my Desert Island Game. If I have to give up all my 3000+ games and only allowed to keep one, this would be it. This bloody game stood the test of time. Around for more than 25 years - simply the best.
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Thanks for sharing your experience!
I'm considering getting a C-4 but I plan to use a Stanley Knife ... what do you think - would that work too? And how prone is the C-4 if you glide off and accidentally cut into it?
I never found this kind of knife and use a standard GW hobby knife. This increases the problem that the top counters gets more stuff cut off, so I do the 4 corners, then turn the stack and go over them again. This gives me good results and I am rather fast.
I'm considering getting a C-4 but I plan to use a Stanley Knife ... what do you think - would that work too? And how prone is the C-4 if you glide off and accidentally cut into it?
You really do need a flat chisel blade. I'm sure you could "do it" but the results might be less than stellar. Blade angle is everything from what I've found which is what Chris was talking about with the top counters getting more cut off than bottom ones.
As a solution...you could try trimming the jig itself at the bottom so the guide would cut inwards slightly.
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This is NOT a Chihuahua. It is a Sphynx cat. A bald, grouchy Sphynx cat who will bite you if you mistake him for a Chihuahua.
I agree that a chisel blade is essential. You can buy 100 #18 X-Acto blades from Amazon for $26.80. They'll last you through several complete OOBs. I also keep a sharpening strop on the table when I'm clipping -- a swipe or two every few stacks does wonders for the blade.
I agree, too, that blade angle is usually the biggest factor in inconsistent cutting. My cuts improved greatly when I started cutting while standing up, so that I could be over the jig and push straight down.
Ten counters is a big stack! I find I get the best results with 7-8.
One other caveat: if your technique isn't perfect with your first C-4, you may find that the plastic wears away faster than you'd expect. After a couple thousand counters, you may find (as I did) that the cut is noticeably deeper than it was when the jig was new. If uniformity is important to you, you should periodically check your latest counters against some that you cut early on to make sure that you're still cutting within an acceptable margin. This is not the fault of the jig -- I promptly bought a second one when I noticed the problem -- but it is something to be aware of. Now I use my original ("deep cut") jig for larger counters, and my newer jig for small ones.
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I use it too, but it doesn't really save much time for me because the counters are almost never the same sizes (even from the same counter sheet), which results in uneven cuts, so I have to pre-sort and arrange the counters before I can cut them. :/
Usually it's enough to arrange them from the largest counter at the bottom to smallest at the top to make the cuts consistent.
Chicken Caesar, a Game of Plots, Politics, and Poultry for 3-6 players -- no luck, just revenge!
This is NOT a Chihuahua. It is a Sphynx cat. A bald, grouchy Sphynx cat who will bite you if you mistake him for a Chihuahua.
Hipsu wrote:
I use it too, but it doesn't really save much time for me because the counters are almost never the same sizes (even from the same counter sheet), which results in uneven cuts, so I have to pre-sort and arrange the counters before I can cut them. :/
Usually it's enough to arrange them from the largest counter at the bottom to smallest at the top to make the cuts consistent.
Are you clipping ASL stuff? I find that the MMP counters are very consistent. For AH counters, and other older stuff, I find that the biggest issue is with the extra "ears" in the middle of the sides. Even if I cut them from the sprues (when I can) there's still too much there to get a great cut with any jig I know of, including the C4.
I just used it to cut the 2011 release of For King & Country and those counters were most definitely not perfectly sized. I cut with an xacto knife and know I didn't chip any off the sides of the counter to contribute to any size issues.
The bottom line is that there's never going to be a perfect cut unless they done in the same fashion as Twilight Struggle or Conflict of Heroes where each counter has it's own full punch on the die cutter.
The issue here is that even SLIGHT variation affects the overall efficacy of the jig because there's no variation in it!
I live in the city of Gulf, on the shores of Lake Water. This fun fact has nothing to do with this badge you're pointing at.
skipsizemore wrote:
Are you clipping ASL stuff?
Yup, but I'm known for extreme fussiness. I'm talking about variations in a range of a millimeter. It wouldn't be an issue if the counters could be fully pushed against the jig but it's not possible when they are different sizes.
Wow. You must have received an earlier run than I did. Everything I've purchased for the past year has been 100% unable to punch. Cutting everything off the sprues is the only choice.
If you look a the cross sections of say Valor of the Guards and ASLSK Expansion #1 you'll see a difference in the material color as well.
My thought is that it's the same quality, but it's a different grade of cardboard. The new stuff seems less dense than the last. Many people have complained with For King & Country about the paper peeling from the cardboard ruining counters.
I've not seen that, but then again, I've been slicing off the counters rather than punching because the die-cutting and whatever this material is...seems a bit suspect.
I have no doubts that it's the same price and MMP is being told that "it's the same" but it definitely doesn't feel the same as products released in the past few years.
It wouldn't be an issue if the counters could be fully pushed against the jig but it's not possible when they are different sizes.
This might help. When you have counters with less consistent die-cuts, use your fingers to set them in the C4 instead of the snugger. They will be flush against the bevels. Also, when cutting counters from older games or those with softer chipboard, try turning the counters upside down. Don't know why, but that seems to really help. Thanks for all the comments--even the critical ones help.
