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Pulsipher Game Design

This blog contains comments by Dr. Lewis Pulsipher about tabletop games he is designing or has designed in the past, as well as comments on game design (tabletop and video) in general. It repeats his blog at http://pulsiphergamedesign.blogspot.com/
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Depth versus Variety: a Fundamental Change in Game Playing in the Past 30-40 Years

Lewis Pulsipher
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Recently I was discussing via blog posts what depth is in games ( http://gamasutra.com/blogs/LewisPulsipher/20111219/9125/What... and elsewhere), and then ran across a discussion of how role-playing games have changed since D&D was first published
( http://shirosrpg.blogspot.com/2011/12/i-weep-for-newbs.html#... ). I’ve realized that there is a connection between the two, that what gamers are looking for in games has changed in a fundamental way in the past 30-40 years.

That fundamental change is that 30-40 years ago many hobby game players looked for gameplay depth (and occasionally narrative depth) in their games. Now most game players don’t look for gameplay depth but look instead for variety, which is quite a different thing. Many more people now also look for narrative in their games, but I’m not sure whether they’re looking for narrative depth or narrative variety. Game playing has become much more passive where long-term decision-making is concerned, and that's incompatible with gameplay depth. Yes, there's lots of activity in many kinds of video games, and short-term decision making, but the decisions and choices often don't really matter in the long run.

Variety tends to lead to replayability, but game depth also leads to replayability. So they are two paths to the same objective, getting people to play the game over and over again.

Is variety "bad?" Certainly not. Is gameplay depth "good?" Not in and of itself, though it's what I have tended to look for in over 50 years of game playing. Regardless of my preference, this discussion is a recognition of reality, what IS, not a criticism of the change.

(At this point I hope it's obvious that I'm talking about trends and tendencies, about majorities, not about every hobby game player. Of course there are many, many exceptions in a group as large as ours.)

I’m talking here about hobby gamers, about people who play games frequently as a hobby. Family gamers are a very different group, and have never been people who looked for depth in a game. Nor did they look for variety, 30-40 years ago, their purpose in playing games was and is to socialize with their families and friends.

What do I mean by depth and variety? I’m working on a very long piece discussing gameplay depth and other kinds of depth in games. For our purposes here I'll say that deep gameplay requires players to make many significant decisions, decisions that make a difference in the outcome of the game, and those decisions have multiple viable choices so the player can pick a better choice rather than a worse one, but more than one choice has a good chance to be successful. (A "viable" choice is one that, at least a reasonable part of the time, can lead to success, as opposed to "plausible" but not viable choices that look like they might work out well but rarely if ever will.) There is often an element of emergence in such games, choices (and sometimes decisions) that players don’t even recognize when they first play the game. This is often associated with decision trees, decisions that lead to others that lead to others and so on in a sort of tree shape, that give a good chance of success in the game. Yet perhaps paradoxically, if a game has *too many* decisions and *too many viable choices*, then it loses depth as each individual decision and choice becomes insignificant to the outcome of the whole.

Variety, on the other hand, is doing lots more of the same kinds of actions and related activity without providing additional significant decisions and viable choices. Variety occasionally replace one decision with a different one, or more often replaces a choice or choices with different ones, but the volume of significant decisions and viable choices, and the depth of the decision trees, remains the same. Variety can be added by additional scenarios or levels, variable maps, different character classes, and random events (among others).

How things have changed
So much for brief definition. How (and why) have things changed? 40 years ago we didn’t have video games, nor did we have CCGs, we had board and card games and we had RPGs just about to emerge. The development of RPGs reflects the 30-40 year fundamental change. Many of the players of original, first, and second edition D&D wanted gameplay depth. In third edition D&D the emphasis changed to ways of optimizing characters using a stupendous variety of published classes and skills and feats, a striving to make the perfect one man army for tactical combat. D&D became fantasy Squad Leader. It was much harder to die and in fact the “fear of death” was slowly being removed from the game.

In computer RPGs this was happening much more strongly. If you died then at worst you just loaded your saved game and continued. In many computer MMO (massively multiplayer online) RPGs you don’t even need to save your game, you just respawn and continue. After all, the makers of the MMOs do not have gameplay depth as an objective, their objective is to keep you playing the game as long as possible so that they can collect the monthly fees. (Now monthly fees are much less common because we’ve gone to free to play games, but the objective is still to have people play as long as possible so that they will spend money on virtual goods and other advantages.) In order to retain players, many online video games reward players constantly rather than make them responsible for earning their advancement and advantages. If there’s no responsibility for earning advancement, decisions become much less significant, and choices matter much less. Social networking games have taken this to the extreme. Engagement has replaced gameplay. (See http://whatgamesare.com/2011/04/how-engagement-killed-gamepl... for more.)

Not only responsibility for your actions but the fear of death has been removed from electronic RPGs, and with it most of the gameplay depth has been removed. If it doesn’t really matter whether you die, if you can try again when you fail, then your decisions no longer make a difference to what happens in the long run, so they are no longer significant in the gameplay depth sense. World of Warcraft is a game with so little gameplay depth to it that professional “pharmers” can, in an economically feasible period of time, play characters up to high levels and sell them to other people who don’t want to *bother* to play the game to get to the maximum level. “The grind” characterizes play, and for many people playing the game is “like work.” (See http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/ .) I’ve said that variety has been substituted for depth in games but in WoW there doesn’t seem to be much interest from the players in variety until after you’ve reached maximum level. As characters work their way up there's little interest in the journey, only in the destination of maximum level. For those at max level, variety is essential to maintain interest in the game.

Even at maximum level, big raids amount to characters doing the same thing, their “role” (DPS, healer, etc.), for extended periods of time. By all accounts it’s regimented and repetitively automatic, and does not involve making significant decisions with multiple viable choices.

In some video games we have the phenomenon of “mini-games”, completely different games that have been inserted into the main game for players to play when they get bored of the main game. Again it’s variety that is the attraction, not depth.

The recent fourth edition (4e) of D&D reflects this change of emphasis. Some responsibility is still there, but the fear of death has been almost entirely removed through lots of beginning hit points, healing surges, easy ways to come back into the action when you’ve been incapacitated, cheap healing potions, and so forth. Characters no longer have much capability to gather strategic (or tactical) information through spells. In the past D&D players had to speak in character to gather information, or figure out how to use spells to gather information: now they roll dice. Some of this may derive from video games where the referee–the computer–is nowhere close to smart enough to deal with a wide variety of dialogue and a wide variety of player intentions, so everything is reduced to dialog trees and numbers and dice rolls. 4e is now, in its "natural" form, almost entirely tactical battles without much long-range planning and consequently with very little strategy.

The blog commenters I mentioned above talked about players complaining about secret doors in 4e D&D. This appeared to be regarded as a “nasty DM trick”. As a counter-comment a 4e DM said he didn’t use secret doors because he knew where he wanted his players to go and what he wanted them to do and there was no point in hiding the path. In other words, in a game where variety and linear narrative is the objective then secret doors only get in the way. In a game where gameplay depth is the objective then secret doors can be a differentiator, and the choice to look for secret doors or not look for them can be significant.

RPGs are now arranged much more for players to experience variety, rewards, and winning rather than to experience gameplay depth and the possibility of losing. They are becoming more entertainments (something like movies) than games, if by games we mean something where there’s a significant opposition that requires thoughtful reaction.

I also think it’s much more common in RPGs nowadays that the referee devises a story and makes the players conform to that story. As Monte Cook observed several years ago at Origins, the published tabletop adventures tend to be much more story-based than in the past. The old-style alternative was to set up a situation and let the players make a story rather than forcing them to follow a linear path. In video RPGs, the Japanese/console style has been to force the players to follow along a particular linear story. (The American/PC style is more like WoW.) In fact some people have characterized the famous Final Fantasy series as stories punctuated with repetitive episodes of exploration and combat that make virtually no difference to what actually happens in the stories.

Favorite Games
30-40 years ago most game players had one or a few favorite games, ones that they wanted to play over and over again. This is far less common now. Ask younger gamers, especially video gamers, what their favorite game is and most will be unable to tell you or will simply name the game they’re currently playing. Some are even surprised at the idea of having a favorite game. They want to name a dozen or more as their favorites, if they can narrow it down that far. The very idea of playing a game a hundred times or 500 times (I know people who have played my 4 to 5 hour tabletop game Britannia more than 500 times), or the video game equivalent, playing the same game for many hundreds of hours, is foreign to most contemporary gamers. Many of the younger people who do have a favorite game that they play over and over have settled on Magic:the Gathering or Yu-Gi-Oh. Yet the very nature of CCGs is to change the game over time (providing immense variety) in order to persuade players to buy new cards; sometimes the game rules are changed as well.

Many AAA video games involve a puzzle or a story, and once you solve the puzzle or experience the story there is no reason to continue. Some of the games will give you several different characters to play so that variety is added to the game. But there is little gameplay depth. A game with deep gameplay can be played again and again while revealing new aspects and possibilities. Puzzles tend to be solved, and once solved hold little interest.

This fundamental change may reflect all forms of leisure activity these days. There are many more distractions and many more opportunities for entertainment than 30-40 years ago. Now we have the World Wide Web, we have hundreds of TV networks, we have movies and TV programs on recordable media and available through instant download, we have smart phones and texting and free long distance and iPads and MP3 players and so forth, none of which was available 30 or 40 years ago. People just don’t seem to stick to one thing the way they used to and that applies to games as well as everything else.

Playing a game with deep gameplay usually requires patience and a commitment to planning. These characteristics are in short supply nowadays as people rely on their cell phones to provide both distractions (time killing) and a way to compensate for poor planning or lack of interest in planning.

We have become “entertainment bathers.” Sound/music bathers like to have 1000 or 10,000 songs on their MP3 players but likely don’t listen to any one of the songs very much. (Clearly of an older generation, I can listen to the same song over and over for an hour sometimes, if it’s a really good song; how many young people would even dream of doing that?) Game bathers like to have lots and lots of games to play but don’t play any one of them very much. Variety is the goal. We've become a jaded society.


This is not the only fundamental change over that period. Even among many who want to fully use their brains when playing games, puzzle-solving (which rarely involves gameplay depth, it is a different kind of skill) has displaced gameplay depth. And in the video game world, engagement has tended to replace gameplay as the objective of designers. But those are topics for another time.
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Subscribe sub options Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:54 pm
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Joel Eddy
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Ah!! Very well written piece. It elucidates some of my feelings on these topics much better than I could hope to.

Quote:

Playing a game with deep gameplay usually requires patience and a commitment to planning. These characteristics are in short supply nowadays as people rely on their cell phones to provide both distractions (time killing) and a way to compensate for poor planning or lack of interest in planning.

We have become “entertainment bathers.”


It the parlance of my generation... "Word".
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  • Posted Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:58 pm
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Sergey Nikolenko
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I read the Gamasutra discussion about depth with interest, but it feels strange that nobody mentioned the classical definition of depth as the number of skill levels. Consider, for simplicity, a two-player game. Say that player A is of higher skill level than player B if player A wins over B 80% (or some other constant) of the time. Then divide all players into skill levels, starting from the not-very-bright players who have just learned the rules. The number of skill levels is the depth. Under this definition, it's possible to quantify that go is deeper than chess, for instance.

(Although this definition is obviously subjective -- see my blog post for a slightly more detailed discussion.)
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  • Posted Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:53 pm
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Eugene
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Your article focuses on RPG's and videogames. How does this relate to most of us here on boardgamegeek, where our prime interest is board games?

You lament the continued evolution of D&D away from its original form that emphasized depth and difficulty and fear of dying. I'm not an RPG player, so can you explain this to me? Aren't RPG's run by a DM who has omnipotence when it comes to the challenges players face and any deaths that result from failing to meet those challenges?

How do you view Bridge? Each hand is different, to be played in strict isolation from the hand before and the hand that follows. Does this mean Bridge lacks depth, that it sacrifices planning and grand strategy for endless variability?
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  • Edited Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:45 pm
  • Posted Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:34 pm
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Alan Paull
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Interesting post.

Just to put in a sceptical note, as ever.

I wonder whether the tendency that you notice is to do with a growing gamer community. As the gaming community (including the hobby gaming community) grows, the attitudes and properties of the general population become more evident within the enlarging gamer community. Therefore the proportion of 'serious gamers who want depth' becomes smaller, and the proportion of more general casual gamers who want entertainment and variety becomes larger.

I certainly see that in our group of gamers who attend our games weekends (3 times a year). The group has a 'hard core' of about 6 or so who like to play long, deep games. The total group has grown over the years from about 15 to 30 - 40 (though not all attending at the same time!). The hard core used to be smaller (probably only 4 or 5). Both groups have grown, but the ratio of hard core to general gamer has probably slipped from 40:60 to 20:80.

I thought initially that maybe age was an issue, but our group has kept itself re-supplied with youngsters pretty well.

So I think that what we're seeing is a growing gaming community, in which the proportion of hard core gamers is getting smaller. Relatively few of the new gamers want great depth, but prefer variety and 'games as entertainment'. I think that's more a feature of an expanding market and user base than a change in hobby gamers playing styles. Just as extra evidence, look at 3 specific new games with great depth and significant hobby game popularity - Dominant Species, High Frontier and Through the Ages.

Alan
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  • Posted Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:44 pm
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Peter O
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garygarison wrote:
Your article focuses on RPG's and videogames. How does this relate to most of us here on boardgamegeek, where our prime interest is board games?

You lament the continued evolution of D&D away from its original form that emphasized depth and difficulty and fear of dying. I'm not an RPG player, so can you explain this to me? Aren't RPG's run by a DM who has omnipotence when it comes to the challenges players face and any deaths that result from failing to meet those challenges?

How do you view Bridge? Each hand is different, to be played in strict isolation from the hand before and the hand that follows. Does this mean Bridge lacks depth, that it sacrifices planning and grand strategy for endless variability?


I'm clearly not the OP, but I see depth in bridge as planning your bidding and thinking about or definning certain play movves (ruffing, endplaying, so on). The variety is indeed the different hands. Bridge also has a strong family/party component of being a means to meeting people. Competitive bridge arrises because the game skills are challenging enough to separate people out. That, and as Scrabble and roshambo prove, anything can be made competitive.
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  • Posted Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:03 pm
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Cole Wehrle
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eekamouse wrote:
Ah!! Very well written piece. It elucidates some of my feelings on these topics much better than I could hope to.

Quote:

Playing a game with deep gameplay usually requires patience and a commitment to planning. These characteristics are in short supply nowadays as people rely on their cell phones to provide both distractions (time killing) and a way to compensate for poor planning or lack of interest in planning.

We have become “entertainment bathers.”


It the parlance of my generation... "Word".


While I'm inclined to agree with much of this post but I get the feeling that its also rife with that dewy-eyed romance of the past. While I can't speak to RPGs I would like to add Starcraft II into the mix. Talk about replay-ability, most of the top level players I know have logged 10k games or more on a pretty limited set of scenarios (read maps).

Of course, there are many, many gamers who are more interested in the flavor of the month than really fleshing the games they have previously played but I can think of exceptions to this as well, enough that I find the gaming community fairly divided on this issue. I know several groups who play nothing but Dominion, Through the Ages, Twilight Struggle, Age of Steam, 1830, or a host of other titles. That's to say nothing of my wargaming friends who move through the ASL scenarios in Beyond Valor with eerie, clock-like regularity.


Personally speaking, there are several titles which have captured my interest for years and continue to see time on the table, but I also enjoy testing the water of what's in the current of game design. The hobby is huge right now and there are torrents of new games being produced. Though my fancy and group might be taken with Age of Steam I'm sure other groups passed the title up and instead play Taj Mahal or Goa. Like many things in this era, fragmentation seems the appropriate buzzword. Diverse games for diverse groups. More communication of a certain type and less of another.
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  • Edited Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:18 pm
  • Posted Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:05 pm
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David Boeren
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I've noticed many times that different groups of gamers have different expectations of their games.

Much of the BGG crowd are into the Cult of the New. They expect to play a bewildering array of new games and to reply only a few of them beyond the first or second game. This is possible because there is such a huge number of games available these days.

Only a few groups seem to want to play the same game over and over consistently for years. I can think of a few (these are probably not all, just the ones I have been in contact with personally):

1. "classical" card gamers, such as Bridge, Spades, Canasta, etc...
2. Chess and Go players
3. Miniatures wargamers
4. CCG/LCG players

These people tend to have a game which is "their game" which they devote much effort into, although they may play other games on the side.

Personally, I *like* playing a game over and over and mastering its strategy, getting to understand it to the point where I can have interested discussions about the strategy, etc... But it's hard to find others interested in the same thing when so many players flit from one game to another without a look back at the games they leave behind before they taste more than the tiniest bit of gameplay. And of course not all games HAVE deep gameplay either, that's certainly a factor.

Part of it is that there is a drawback to deep games with many skill levels. You can lose horribly and be so far behind an opponent in skill that it will take a lot of work to be able to compete with them. Not everyone can take this, or wants to put in the time and effort to understand the game better.
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  • Posted Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:38 pm
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dboeren wrote:
Part of it is that there is a drawback to deep games with many skill levels. You can lose horribly and be so far behind an opponent in skill that it will take a lot of work to be able to compete with them. Not everyone can take this, or wants to put in the time and effort to understand the game better.

This brings up another point: Players are not pitted against each other in an tabletop RPG. Mr. Pulsipher decries the sad decline of RPG depth, and yet the very activity itself is more shared cooperative narrative than a competitive game.
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  • Edited Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:51 pm
  • Posted Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:50 pm
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I like this:

[ an activity] where there’s a significant opposition that requires thoughtful reaction

as the definition of what is a 'game'.

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  • Posted Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:02 pm
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P. Mihalarias
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A very thoughtful post. Thank you.

Looking back, since first becoming a hobby game enthusiast (c. 1980), I do notice a trend in which I've sought greater diversity in my experience of games, perhaps the same phenomenon you describe as variety-seeking. For instance, it is only in the last few years that I've come to appreciate card games, e.g., Bridge, whereas I had zero interest previously. So what could be driving this behavior?

It could be simply that I am a more superficial person now than I was then, more easily satisfied by transient interactions that hold less and less meaning. At least one other explanation exists. Namely, the more games (and types of games) that I play, the easier it is to find others to play them with. If I tried to stick to my half-dozen or so favorites exclusively, I would be very lucky to find a group with the same taste as mine; not to mention, even if I could find that magic fellowship, it would almost certainly mean that I'd be playing with a less diverse population of friends. Or so I reason.

I wonder if your criticism of the superficiality of today's novelty-driven hobby gamers also implies, perhaps tacitly, a commentary on gamers' relationships within the world at large. At heart, yours seems to be a social critique. Do you feel that more diversity among modes of interaction tends to imply less meaningful interactions? Though open to persuasion, I'm inclined to think not.

Mostly I seek out new games because I desire both interesting modes of interaction with people *and* an understanding of different kinds of systems. Often in gaming these are the same thing; other times they are not. Consequently, the classic depth vs. breadth duality that can be useful in understanding the internal workings of a game is apt to break down when extrapolated to the hobby itself as a social phenomenon. People go to games not just for different reasons, but they extract meaning from them (indeed from the hobby itself) in different ways. The possibility exists that it's not that gaming has become a less meaningful pursuit (via their featuring fewer "meaningful decisions"), but that meaningfulness is being mined elsewhere.
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  • Posted Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:24 pm
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It sounds like you're claiming that Magic: the Gathering lacks depth when you mention CCGs. If so, I assume this is because you are completely unfamiliar with the game. There's significantly more depth in Magic than the classic "deep" games, but it's often ignored because of the random element. You still see the same people consistently doing well in Magic tournaments, though. The fact that new cards are constantly coming out adds variety in the game, but it also adds depth at the same time.

As for someone's comment grouping Scrabble with RPS, that's just silly. A random element does not negate every other aspect of a game. I'm not familiar with competitive Scrabble, but I assume the same players also do well consistently in that game. I quit playing Scrabble years ago because I only lost the rare games where I kept plucking unusable combinations of letters. I'm certain I would get destroyed in a Scrabble tourney, though.
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  • Posted Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:28 pm
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Conceptually I agree with you, that in many ways gaming media, particularly video/computer games, are increasingly being "dumbed down" to appeal to a newer audience that may be less interested in deeper experiences (which require more thinking effort as a consequence).

I've been a video (computer primarily) gamer since the late 80's (going on 25 years now, my god...) and I've noticed this trend for sure, although I'll also say it has radically picked up in the past 5 years or so as games are increasingly being developed cross-platform to appeal to computer gamers and console gamers.

Regarding computer RPG's ... I'm not sure there is really a connection between deep gameplay (specifically the reduction of it) and the ability to reload your save game if you die. However, I agree that game developers are often not putting depth at the forefront of the design process. But it begs the question ... what IS depth in a computer RPG?

I follow your thinking regarding many RPG’s and WoW ... there isn’t really much strategic depth or thinking at work in how you level or equip your character. If you’re playing a given type of character, there is pretty much one optimal way to build and play that character. The gameplay decisions really aren’t high level questions about how you develop your character (or even what the end goal is), but rather the gameplay decisions all hinge on the execution, the tactics as it were, of conducting a raid, doing the right thing at the right time, etc. That’s fine of course, and I don’t think WoW is trying to pitch itself as deep strategic game either. Most computers RPG’s aren’t for that matter.

This apparent lack of depth might also be an issue that gets highlighted by player vs. enemy games (or solo games) where there isn’t a human opponent, with their cunning and ingenuity on the other end necessitating more strategic thinking.

Take another computer game example, competitive counter-strike. Yes it’s a First-Person-Shooter game that requires a high level of dexterity to perform at the top levels. In a competitive match setting, there are also a lot of tactics at work (how you use cover, chokepoints, suppressing fire, speed, etc.). However, there is also a fairly strong strategic element. On a round-by-round basis, the team has to decide which particular strategy they are going to attempt, and each map depending on the objective and side can have many viable strategic deployments or options. There is a meta-level strategy operating too, as you try to balance what optimal strategies might be used for the round against what your opponent’s are going to do or expect you do to ... there’s a deep mind game at work. You also have to balance your team’s available money for purchasing equipment for the round against the risk of mission success/failure. If you spend all your funds running a gamble, you can lose the whole match if the risk doesn’t pay off. But like many deep or multi-layered games, the strategy also relies in the execution with the associated tactics and player skills to make it happen.

Going back to solo or PvE RPG’s, I’m not sure how you create those strategic decisions. I think a lot of it, as you allude to, has to do with the lack of consequences in many games. Sure, you can reload if you die, but more specifically, choosing one type of character over another rarely has any consequence in the game. The story line is still the same, the quests rewards largely the same. The whole game world is open to you regardless of your choices.

I’ll rant a little about Bethesda’s recent games in the Elder Scrolls series and its evolution. Morrowind (TES III) was a game that stood out in my mind because there were some more consequences to your character development and quest choices. If you played a wizard, you actually had to get really good at your spell skills to end up leading the mages guild. So much so that you might not have time to level up your fighting skills to advance far in the fighters guild. There is some degree of mutual exclusivity at work. Likewise, joining one of the great houses puts you at odds with the others. But I’m not sure these consequences really have a strategic implication, they are giving you differential access to variety (as I think you’ve defined it). The more recent Elder Scroll games (Oblivion and Skyrim) are devoid of these hard big choices.

Incidentally, I mod the heck out of Bethesda games, and Morrowind for me did become more strategic in some ways. By ‘de-dumbing down the game’ and adding all manner of mods to enhance the difficulty and realism (including the need to eat/drink/sleep/etc.) felt more strategic. On one hand, I had to decide what to carry with me on a quest, how much food/water to take, etc. because I couldn’t carry it all. Without the fast travel "escape button" I actually got stuck in remote areas with no food, low health, and no easy way out. I may have died a lot, but eventually I was able to get to safety. A lot of tension, but maybe not much strategy.

I think for computer RPG’s to have more strategy, there may have to be a means of losing the game (and not just dying). A risk that maybe the story doesn’t unfold the way you wanted it to because of the choices the player made. That’s missing from a lot of games, even ones pretending to offer multiple endings. There also is rarely a time element in computer RPG’s that force genuine opportunity cost decisions. If you had ‘deadlines’ for completing quests and could only meet some of them, that would force a tradeoff decision in which quest you choose to finish ... and perhaps it is even a strategic decision if what choice you make has a long-term bearing on the evolution of the story or your character development (i.e. real consequences). Likewise, if certain game events only occur at a specific point in time, it up to the character to choose to be there for the event versus somewhere else doing something else.

That’s all for now...

Alan Paull wrote:
Interesting post.

Just to put in a sceptical note, as ever.

I wonder whether the tendency that you notice is to do with a growing gamer community. As the gaming community (including the hobby gaming community) grows, the attitudes and properties of the general population become more evident within the enlarging gamer community. Therefore the proportion of 'serious gamers who want depth' becomes smaller, and the proportion of more general casual gamers who want entertainment and variety becomes larger.

,,,

So I think that what we're seeing is a growing gaming community, in which the proportion of hard core gamers is getting smaller. Relatively few of the new gamers want great depth, but prefer variety and 'games as entertainment'. I think that's more a feature of an expanding market and user base than a change in hobby gamers playing styles. Just as extra evidence, look at 3 specific new games with great depth and significant hobby game popularity - Dominant Species, High Frontier and Through the Ages.

Alan


I think is is a very good point! Well said.
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  • Edited Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:22 am
  • Posted Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:21 am
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brilk wrote:
It sounds like you're claiming that Magic: the Gathering lacks depth when you mention CCGs. If so, I assume this is because you are completely unfamiliar with the game. There's significantly more depth in Magic than the classic "deep" games, but it's often ignored because of the random element. You still see the same people consistently doing well in Magic tournaments, though. The fact that new cards are constantly coming out adds variety in the game, but it also adds depth at the same time.

Yet Lewis's more direct implication about Magic does seem true: that one of its attractions is exactly the continual new variety of cards. Why do Magic players play Magic instead of (e.g.) Go, Chess or Shogi? I believe many would cite exactly the continual variety and novelty due to new cards being released as a main reason. (Right?)

Which goes to show that to some degree "depth vs variety" is a false dichotomy - they're not necessarily mutually exclusive or opposite ends of some spectrum.
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russ wrote:
Yet Lewis's more direct implication about Magic does seem true: that one of its attractions is exactly the continual new variety of cards. Why do Magic players play Magic instead of (e.g.) Go, Chess or Shogi? I believe many would cite exactly the continual variety and novelty due to new cards being released as a main reason. (Right?)

Which goes to show that to some degree "depth vs variety" is a false dichotomy - they're not necessarily mutually exclusive or opposite ends of some spectrum.
I think offline deckbuilding just cannot survive without variety. It's not necessarily that variety is preferred over depth, and players are attracted by sheer variety (although it may be true). Variety (including constant development of ever new cards) is just a direct prerequisite for the basic mechanic of Magic.
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  • Posted Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:34 am
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snikolenko wrote:
russ wrote:
Yet Lewis's more direct implication about Magic does seem true: that one of its attractions is exactly the continual new variety of cards. Why do Magic players play Magic instead of (e.g.) Go, Chess or Shogi? I believe many would cite exactly the continual variety and novelty due to new cards being released as a main reason. (Right?)

Which goes to show that to some degree "depth vs variety" is a false dichotomy - they're not necessarily mutually exclusive or opposite ends of some spectrum.
I think offline deckbuilding just cannot survive without variety. It's not necessarily that variety is preferred over depth, and players are attracted by sheer variety (although it may be true). Variety (including constant development of ever new cards) is just a direct prerequisite for the basic mechanic of Magic.

Hmm, I'm not sure if I believe that. E.g. offline deckbuilding seems somewhat analogous to both players secretly simultaneously choosing their starting forces in wargames with design-your-own scenarios (e.g. Squad Leader, Combat Commander, etc), and those examples don't require continually inventing new units. (Though for obvious marketing reasons popular wargames often spawn expansions - but it's possible to play them with great enjoyment using only the base set.)

In any case, I have seen plenty of Magic and other CCG players tout the variety and influx of new cards as a Good Thing that attracts them to the systems, so (regardless of whether newness/variety is necessary) it seems clear that, at least for some players, it is indeed an explicitly stated preference or desire.
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russ wrote:
Hmm, I'm not sure if I believe that. E.g. offline deckbuilding seems somewhat analogous to both players secretly simultaneously choosing their starting forces in wargames with design-your-own scenarios (e.g. Squad Leader, Combat Commander, etc), and those examples don't require continually inventing new units. (Though for obvious marketing reasons popular wargames often spawn expansions - but it's possible to play them with great enjoyment using only the base set.)


I think it would kill Magic, but not due to any issue with the game. It's more in how Magic has been marketed as a transitory game. Owning one cube to draft with would be more than enough Magic to last a person a lifetime. I don't think it actually would last a lifetime, though, because Magic players are used to moving on to something new once a year. I just can't see any form of Magic surviving for long once Wizards is out of the picture.
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russ wrote:
To some degree "depth vs variety" is a false dichotomy - they're not necessarily mutually exclusive or opposite ends of some spectrum.

I'm sure there's truth to that. At the same time, everywhere I look in life, there's always a tension between quantity and quality: usually you have to choose one or the other or some balance of the two. If we could get it, we'd all want both quantity and quality without limitation, it's too costly (in terms of time, money, or whatever), and we're forced to choose. I think that's parallel to "depth vs variety." If you want to master shogi, you'll probably never do it if you spend your time playing every new game that comes along; you have to focus on shogi to a large extent.

In terms of marketing, I suspect my dad's principle probably holds true. When I was a kid, we were watching the TV show Gunsmoke together one evening, and Dad told me why it was such a successful show: it was always the same but always different. Week after week, we got to see familiar characters in a familiar setting, and yet each episode was distinct and interesting.

I think that's why a game like ASL or D&D can work so well. You've got a core set of rules and mechanics that become familiar with practice, but the scenarios that can be generated are limited only by our imagination.

Focusing entirely on depth is ultimately a dead end. Capablanca and Fischer both reached a point where they tried to reinvent chess; there was nowhere else for them to go depth-wise unless the game itself could change somehow. Marion Tinsley had reached that point in checkers, and he got to face a challenge only late in life, when the Chinook computer program proved to be a match for him. Tinsley might have done well to explore other forms of checkers or other games.

Focusing entirely on variety eventually results in burnout. It gets to where everything is a lot like something else you've tried before. You grow tired of dancing across the surface of the gaming life; and then you either give up the hobby and seek titillation elsewhere, or you pick a game, slow down and pay attention to it, and start plumbing its depth.
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  • Edited Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:56 pm
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Patrick Carroll wrote:
Focusing entirely on depth is ultimately a dead end. Capablanca and Fischer both reached a point where they tried to reinvent chess; there was nowhere else for them to go depth-wise unless the game itself could change somehow. Marion Tinsley had reached that point in checkers, and he got to face a challenge only late in life, when the Chinook computer program proved to be a match for him. Tinsley might have done well to explore other forms of checkers or other games.


I think one factor in this though is that these games are entirely deterministic. Every game has the same starting position, the same pieces, the same goal. Nothing is different except that moves you both make, and even those tend to follow one of several main lines that have been determined "best" over time.

This is where CCGs/LCG and customizeable wargames have an advantage. You can play different decks, or use different armies/terrain/deployment. Each game is substantially different not only in the moves you make but in the boundary conditions as well. You can play different scenarios with different goals and use different tools to get there.

I am not a fan of the random boosters used in CCG's, but I do play the Call of Cthulhu LCG and every time a new pack comes out there's something in there that makes me think "Oh man, I can't wait to try this in my such-and-such deck" or "I wonder if I could design a deck around this card and that other one from before?" Same goes for minis wargames which I also play. When new models come out, it always launches a lot of discussion on their forums. What are the best uses for the new units? What do they pair well with from the existing models? In what situations are they better or worse than a similar option we already had?

Every couple months there's a significant new thing that shakes up the game and gives you new options to try - it keeps things exciting. That's why people commonly play these sort of games for years without getting tired of them (provided that it is also a good game with sufficient depth).
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dboeren wrote:
Every couple months there's a significant new thing that shakes up the game and gives you new options to try - it keeps things exciting. That's why people commonly play these sort of games for years without getting tired of them (provided that it is also a good game with sufficient depth).

I suppose the downside is that every couple months there's a new threat to play balance, with advocates and detractors expressing opposite opinions on the innovation.

I've never gotten into anything collectible unless it was clearly a limited collection and I could acquire it all at once. I'm very fond of my favorite game being pretty much a closed system. I'd be very unhappy with a game that keeps changing while I'm trying to learn it or get good at it. That'd drive me nuts.

However, I'm delighted if the system is closed but also capable of generating limitless scenarios. Tactical wargames are usually like this. I guess RPGs can be too, once you settle on a rules set and stick with it. Then if there's a scenario I find too unbalanced, or one I just don't like, I can throw it out and still continue to enjoy the others.

Even a single-scenario, deterministic game like chess or go can be pleasing to me. As long as I haven't personally mastered all the lines of play (and in the games I named, I know I never will in this lifetime), I can continue to find the game fascinating.

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  • Posted Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:49 pm
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Mezmorki wrote:
Conceptually I agree with you, that in many ways gaming media, particularly video/computer games, are increasingly being "dumbed down" to appeal to a newer audience that may be less interested in deeper experiences (which require more thinking effort as a consequence).

[...]


Alan Paull wrote:
Interesting post.

Just to put in a sceptical note, as ever.

I wonder whether the tendency that you notice is to do with a growing gamer community. As the gaming community (including the hobby gaming community) grows, the attitudes and properties of the general population become more evident within the enlarging gamer community. Therefore the proportion of 'serious gamers who want depth' becomes smaller, and the proportion of more general casual gamers who want entertainment and variety becomes larger.

,,,

So I think that what we're seeing is a growing gaming community, in which the proportion of hard core gamers is getting smaller. Relatively few of the new gamers want great depth, but prefer variety and 'games as entertainment'. I think that's more a feature of an expanding market and user base than a change in hobby gamers playing styles. Just as extra evidence, look at 3 specific new games with great depth and significant hobby game popularity - Dominant Species, High Frontier and Through the Ages.

Alan


I think is is a very good point! Well said.


Just thought I'd compare the beginning and end of your longer post. I think the dissonance points at the central phenomenon that is being noted here: over the last 10-20 years we've witnessed a huge, catholic expansion for the gaming world. Difficult games of all varieties still exist and are probably played in larger-than-ever numbers, but they have not exploded at the same rate as the more pedestrian games.

Edit: Just an additional point, one shouldn't look to the big blockbuster games for chewy, dense choices. That'd be a bit like complaining about the vapid nature of mainstream Hollywood Films. Cf. those who complain about the modern state of film without looking beyond the ads they see on television, or music by what they see on the sale rack at their local WalMart.
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  • Edited Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:33 pm
  • Posted Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:28 pm
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Thank you for the thoughtful replies.

"Depth" in games is a very difficult to define. My version, not finished, is 8,500 words (the average novel is 90,000-100,000 words) and has skimped on some kinds of depth (narrative and model/simulation) to concentrate on gameplay depth.

And in any case I'm sure some people will decide my definition of depth is inadequate or wrong-headed.

@mezmorki Japanese video RPGs may have narrative depth (I'm not sure), but certainly not much gameplay depth.

How many computer games of any genre rely on gameplay depth to attract players? It's mostly variety appeal.

The much larger number of games in print certainly could be a reason for the change. We do still have lots of people who focus on one or a few games.

@Gary I think the tendency is clearly manifested in boardgames as well. People play a game a few times and move on. The really successful games are ones that people play again and again, some because they are exceptionally quick and easy, some because of their depth, some because of their variety. RPGs and CCGs are largely about variety, as well.

There is intelligent opposition in RPGs, the referee. How much direct competition there is varies a lot. My wife had to quit reffing D&D because she got too disappointed (to the point of tears!) when she "let the side down", when we rolled over the opposition, almost as if she'd lost the game.

@Alan, I doubt that the number of board/card game *hobbyists* is any higher than 30-40 years ago. We have a lot more in non-English-speaking countries, certainly. But a lot of people who would have been boardgamers if young 30-40 years ago are now video game players (or CCGs, or RPGs). The GAME hobby is much larger, the tabletop game hobby is larger (because we have RPGs and CCGs), the boardgame hobby, if it's larger, is larger because the overall population in first-world countries has increased a lot in 40 years.

Ask high school or college classes how many play boardgames, and there will be very few--even among classes full of video game fans. CCGs have a much larger following in those same classes (Yu-Gi-Oh especially, which I understand is a less cerebral CCG than Magic), RPGs not so much.

@Robert Dudley. I wish I had a dime for each time some fan says I must be completely unfamiliar with or I'd never have said . The Magic *metagame* (collecting cards, making decks) has some depth to it, but it leads to solutions, like a puzzle, and that limits depth (as @Sergey said, the matagame would not survive without the variety of new cards). People "solve" CCGs regularly, and then the card mix is changed (cards are banned or retired) to start the process over. Sometimes the rules are changed. This is variety, not depth. How many significant decisions and choices are there in a typical play of the game (ignore the metagame)? It's not intended to be deep in individual play, it's the metagame that draws in people who are interested in --well, I'd say puzzles, not gameplay depth, because there's no gameplay in the metagame itself.

I know that the same people tend to succeed in tournaments, yet I wonder if that's a function of "yomi", of those players consistently being successful in predicting what their opponents will do, rather than a function of gameplay depth. (Yomi has much more to do with psychology than with the game system. Great poker players must have Yomi, the system is very simple. Is Poker a deep game? Psychologically, yes, otherwise, perhaps not. Is the *system* of poker deep? What would it be like if people never gambled money on the outcome?) Find David Sirlin's online book about video fighting games to read about how important Yomi can be in a two-player game.

I think you could make a case that in games with great variety (which Magic certainly has) the players who succeed regularly in tournaments may be the ones who have most *mastered the variety*, kind of like chess players who have memorized the most lines of play and so succeed more than their skill might otherwise warrant. I don't know.

@Cole. Starcraft I/II players have to be able to do "200 actions per minute" to be competitive. Yes, there is strategy, but the game is dominated by physical speed. Anyone who wants to be competitive in the big Korean tournaments must practice 8-10 hours a day. They're not practicing strategy, they're practicing speed. If there's much depth there, it's purely tactical depth.


Some people mentioned Bridge. I used to regularly watch Charles Goren's Bridge program on TV, a very long time ago, but I never played. I could not adjust to the idea that you started the game by telling people what communication (bidding) code you're using! Nor does there appear to be that much variety. Certainly there's some strategy, but not much depth. I have read that you can become a pretty highly ranked player largely through persistence. I almost never play standard-deck card games, which generally tend not to have much depth.


Almost ANY game appears to have more depth to people who play it a lot, than to others. Perhaps we could say that most games have more depth than is apparent (which, of course, is part of the definition, the "emergence").
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  • Posted Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:33 pm
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lewpuls wrote:
There is intelligent opposition in RPGs, the referee. How much direct competition there is varies a lot.

Please explain "competition" with regard to tabletop RPG's. Do games have winners and losers? Are there recognized highly ranked players?

Quote:
the boardgame hobby, if it's larger, is larger because the overall population in first-world countries has increased a lot in 40 years.

Have you considered the remarkable growth of BGG, the site on which you posted this odd statement?

Quote:
Bridge....Nor does there appear to be that much variety. Certainly there's some strategy, but not much depth. I have read that you can become a pretty highly ranked player largely through persistence.

According to my Bridge playing friends, a persistence that can take a lifetime. Frankly, your knowledge of games outside tabletop RPG's seems lacking.
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  • Posted Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:05 pm
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lewpuls wrote:
@Robert Dudley. I wish I had a dime for each time some fan says I must be completely unfamiliar with or I'd never have said . The Magic *metagame* (collecting cards, making decks) has some depth to it, but it leads to solutions, like a puzzle, and that limits depth (as @Sergey said, the matagame would not survive without the variety of new cards). People "solve" CCGs regularly, and then the card mix is changed (cards are banned or retired) to start the process over. Sometimes the rules are changed. This is variety, not depth.


If you often make statements like this, I think there's a very good reason you've acquired a large dime collection. There is a tremendous amount of depth to the game that you just aren't aware of. Contrary to what you claim, nobody has ever solved a given format of Magic. The best the global population of Magic players ever does is become more proficient at a certain format. Check any Magic tournament at any point during the life cycle of a format and you will see a tremendous variety of decks (barring the occasional unbalanced format where you will see a slightly smaller variety). I won't go into limited formats since it would honestly just take too much time to discuss them. They're worth checking out if you want to find more examples of depth in Magic, though.

lewpuls wrote:
How many significant decisions and choices are there in a typical play of the game (ignore the metagame)? It's not intended to be deep in individual play, it's the metagame that draws in people who are interested in --well, I'd say puzzles, not gameplay depth, because there's no gameplay in the metagame itself.


This is where I know you're not a Magic player. There are a ridiculously huge number of decisions to make in a game of Magic. Like any other game, though, poor players are just not aware of them. Watch the coverage of the top 8 of the next pro tour. You will quickly become aware that there is much more depth to Magic than you think. Chess is a shallow game in comparison (and I've played plenty of both).

lewpuls wrote:
I know that the same people tend to succeed in tournaments, yet I wonder if that's a function of "yomi", of those players consistently being successful in predicting what their opponents will do, rather than a function of gameplay depth. (Yomi has much more to do with psychology than with the game system. Great poker players must have Yomi, the system is very simple. Is Poker a deep game? Psychologically, yes, otherwise, perhaps not. Is the *system* of poker deep? What would it be like if people never gambled money on the outcome?) Find David Sirlin's online book about video fighting games to read about how important Yomi can be in a two-player game.

I think you could make a case that in games with great variety (which Magic certainly has) the players who succeed regularly in tournaments may be the ones who have most *mastered the variety*, kind of like chess players who have memorized the most lines of play and so succeed more than their skill might otherwise warrant. I don't know.


From this bit, I'm not entirely sure you understand how Magic is actually played. You were ambiguous at the start with talks of your extensive dime collection, but are you actually familiar with the game beyond the absolute basics? You're ignoring nearly every aspect of the game while focusing on concepts that are barely relevant to Magic gameplay at all. Your metagame definition is also completely incorrect. It really feels like we're discussing different games.

If you want to take a shortcut and skip everything I've said, just hop on the Googs and look up Jon Finkel, Kai Budde, and Luis Scott Vargas. It ain't yomi.
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  • Posted Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:06 pm
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lewpuls wrote:
I have read that you can become a pretty highly ranked player largely through persistence.

This statement continues to astound. Isn't this true of most any human endeavor? God-given natural talent takes one only so far.
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  • Posted Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:29 pm
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garygarison wrote:
lewpuls wrote:
I have read that you can become a pretty highly ranked player largely through persistence.

This statement continues to astound. Isn't this true of most any human endeavor? God-given natural talent takes one only so far.

Well, there's persistence, and there's persistence.

Game A has tremendous depth, so one needs to work hard (persist) at developing profound insight and understanding in order to master Game A.

Game B has tremendous breadth, so one needs to work hard (persist) at learning about all the different "moving parts" in order to master Game B.

God-given natural talent can help in either case. So can persistence. But what you're persisting at differs markedly from one game to the other.

In Game A, you might have to learn to think several moves ahead or recognize the subtle potential inherent in various board patterns--that sort of thing.

In Game B, you might be doing a lot of memorizing or counting or administrative shuffling.

There's nothing absolutely superior about either set of skills, but the Game A skills tend to be more respected than the Game B skills. A master of Game A is apt to be called truly brilliant or insightful, whereas a master of Game B might be said to have a good memory and a knack for thinking fast on his feet.

Lew's comment was about the game of bridge, and I don't know bridge well enough to say whether it's more like Game A or Game B. But I think Lew is saying he thinks it's more like Game B--and that one "can become a pretty highly ranked player largely through persistence" at the more superficial Game B skills of memorizing, counting, and so forth.
 
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  • Posted Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:06 pm
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Lewis,

Overall, I think you have some good points. However, I notice that your posts regarding videogames are often littered with false / greatly exaggerated blanket statements about videogames.

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This is not the only fundamental change over that period. Even among many who want to fully use their brains when playing games, puzzle-solving (which rarely involves gameplay depth, it is a different kind of skill) has displaced gameplay depth. And in the video game world, engagement has tended to replace gameplay as the objective of designers. But those are topics for another time.


As always, you absolutely ignore Multiplayer video games. RTS Games such as Starcraft / Company of Heroes / Command and Conquer Generals... have MASSIVE amounts of strategic depth. FPS's such as Counter-strike and Call of Duty are other good examples of games with massive amounts of depth, in both skill advancement AND strategy. RTS Games have very little amount of content, but huge amount of depth.

Competitive FPS / RTS Gamers often only play ONE GAME.

If you believe that multiplayer video games do not have depth, you are simply playing the wrong video games, or lack knowledge of good competitive multiplayer videogames.

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Sound/music bathers like to have 1000 or 10,000 songs on their MP3 players but likely don’t listen to any one of the songs very much. (Clearly of an older generation, I can listen to the same song over and over for an hour sometimes, if it’s a really good song; how many young people would even dream of doing that?)


You have heard of Justin Bieber, right?

Overall I think you have some insightful stuff here, but I really strongly disagree with your constant throwing of all videogames into one giant pile.
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  • Posted Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:38 pm
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lewpuls wrote:

@Cole. Starcraft I/II players have to be able to do "200 actions per minute" to be competitive. Yes, there is strategy, but the game is dominated by physical speed. Anyone who wants to be competitive in the big Korean tournaments must practice 8-10 hours a day. They're not practicing strategy, they're practicing speed. If there's much depth there, it's purely tactical depth.


Wait, are seriously suggesting that games with a physical component lack depth?! Players, even those who have an excellent micro (read tactical control) constantly lose against those who can strategically out-think their opponents. If you look at professional games (hell, even amateur games), you will see outstandingly clever play constantly trump practiced maneuvers. Players (here invoking Chess) often escape the mass of recorded and practiced plans and are forced to improvise new stratagems off the book. Furthermore every build, placement, and maneuver has huge strategic and tactical consequences outside of what you seem to be glossing over as a "whomever-clicks-faster-wins contest."

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  • Edited Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:50 pm
  • Posted Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:01 am
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lewpuls wrote:

Almost ANY game appears to have more depth to people who play it a lot, than to others. Perhaps we could say that most games have more depth than is apparent (which, of course, is part of the definition, the "emergence").


I think you hit the nail on the head. Games you play a lot (generally of your design) are deep and reflect what you wish society would enjoy doing. Everybone else's games are merely vapid entertainment.

On a less sarcastic note, I think this is the case for most hobbies. I've found the best way for me to describe boardgaming to non-gamers is to say its like winetasting. I'm allergic to alcohol so I have never been able to enjoy that hobby, and just as I have a hard time relating to their pleasure, there is a whole world to explore in boardgaming as a hobby.

As as we get deeper into this leisure time activity I think there is a natural tendency to make this activity to have more meaning than just burning the hours away in an enjoyable fashion. But that's just what we are doing.
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  • Posted Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:39 am
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I've found the best way for me to describe boardgaming to non-gamers is to say its like winetasting.


In that case, I'm the town drunk.
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  • Posted Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:35 am
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garygarison wrote:
lewpuls wrote:
There is intelligent opposition in RPGs, the referee. How much direct competition there is varies a lot.

Please explain "competition" with regard to tabletop RPG's. Do games have winners and losers? Are there recognized highly ranked players?


So it isn't competition even if you get dead? The only way to compete is if there's (evidently official) winners and losers, and rankings? Are you daft? If two people decide to race one another, are there rankings? Hell no. But there's competition. And there's a winner and loser even if there's nothing official. In RPGs there's the quick and the dead, one way to differentiate winners and losers though it isn't official. And many other ways to compare doing well or doing badly, despite the lack of official victory conditions.

garygarison wrote:
Quote:
the boardgame hobby, if it's larger, is larger because the overall population in first-world countries has increased a lot in 40 years.

Have you considered the remarkable growth of BGG, the site on which you posted this odd statement?


BGG is an outgrowth of the Internet. There are lots of groups that have been able to come together, thanks to the Internet, that could not have existed 30-40 years ago, even if there were 10 times as many potential members then. So the growth of BGG means NOTHING.

garygarison wrote:
Quote:
Bridge....Nor does there appear to be that much variety. Certainly there's some strategy, but not much depth. I have read that you can become a pretty highly ranked player largely through persistence.

According to my Bridge playing friends, a persistence that can take a lifetime. Frankly, your knowledge of games outside tabletop RPG's seems lacking.


So persistence does indeed work, as I reported that I've read. How am I wrong, then?

It would make more sense for me to say "your ability to read seems lacking" than for you to say "your knowledge of games outside tabletop RPG's seems lacking." I suppose you're an expert judge of such things.
 
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  • Posted Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:48 pm
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brilk wrote:
.If you want to take a shortcut and skip everything I've said, just hop on the Googs and look up Jon Finkel, Kai Budde, and Luis Scott Vargas. It ain't yomi.


I looked them up several months ago, thank you, when I was writing a summary of an Origins seminar by CCG designers. You've not changed my mind at all about Yomi in high level Magic.

Other people in this very forum have observed that the great appeal of Magic is variety. The people who design such games will tell you (have told me, including Garfield himself, at that seminar) that the object of the publisher is to change the game constantly, and that if the same deck or decks dominate from one year to the next, the publishers have screwed up. But one deck, or perhaps several, will dominate each year: the solution for that time.

This is almost always going to be the case: hard core game hobbyists will rarely like the idea that their game's appeal is variety rather than depth. They will always think their game is quite deep--of course, because there's more respect in the game hobby for depth than variety. Are they all right? Can't be, can they? Will anything convince them otherwise? Most unlikely. So there is no further point in this conversation, it has become "religious".

 
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  • Posted Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:01 pm
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Cole Wehrle wrote:
lewpuls wrote:

@Cole. Starcraft I/II players have to be able to do "200 actions per minute" to be competitive. Yes, there is strategy, but the game is dominated by physical speed. Anyone who wants to be competitive in the big Korean tournaments must practice 8-10 hours a day. They're not practicing strategy, they're practicing speed. If there's much depth there, it's purely tactical depth.


Wait, are seriously suggesting that games with a physical component lack depth?! Players, even those who have an excellent micro (read tactical control) constantly lose against those who can strategically out-think their opponents. If you look at professional games (hell, even amateur games), you will see outstandingly clever play constantly trump practiced maneuvers. Players (here invoking Chess) often escape the mass of recorded and practiced plans and are forced to improvise new stratagems off the book. Furthermore every build, placement, and maneuver has huge strategic and tactical consequences outside of what you seem to be glossing over as a "whomever-clicks-faster-wins contest."


The purely physical aspects, which surely are a kind of skill, have no depth to them. Depth is about the brain, not the hands.

I have watched some of the commentated (is that a word?) Starcraft II games amongst top players (Youtube), and I recognize that there are strategies and surprises. Nonetheless, I would not call RTS "cerebral" games, and I suspect that the 200 apm folks rarely lose to 150 apm folks.

Any "game" which you must practice 8 hours a day to be a top player, is a sport, not a game as we usually talk about them. Popular sports are rarely deep, as that would put off the audience that spends the money that helps make them popular. Hmmm, is American football a deep game? For the players, no; for the coaches, there is certainly some depth in the Xs and Os. More than in, say, basketball. But a lot of what makes for winning sports teams is psychology. Perhaps psychological depth rather than systemic depth.

There are games with significant decisions and choices that are nonetheless not very deep. It's the number and the "tree" structure (and perhaps the emergence) that makes the game deep. But a game with a very large number of decisions and choices may not be deep, because each decision and choice is by itself insignificant.
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  • Posted Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:13 pm
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@Gavan

Let me repeat myself from OP:
"(At this point I hope it's obvious that I'm talking about trends and tendencies, about majorities, not about every hobby game player. Of course there are many, many exceptions in a group as large as ours.)"

That applies to generalizations about video games as well. Of course there are exceptions to just about every generalization ever made. (Remember the paradox, "no generalization is always true, not even this one.") The video game hobby is also immensely larger than the tabletop game hobby, so there's even more variety.

Finding exceptions to generalizations is often easy. The question is whether the generalization is true most of the time (whatever "most" is, clearly some kind of majority). Sometimes one can adduce surveys or other quantifications, usually not. So, as with religion and often with politics these days, in the end the only agreement will be to disagree.
 
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  • Posted Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:20 pm
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russ wrote:
snikolenko wrote:
Variety (including constant development of ever new cards) is just a direct prerequisite for the basic mechanic of Magic.

Hmm, I'm not sure if I believe that. E.g. offline deckbuilding seems somewhat analogous to both players secretly simultaneously choosing their starting forces in wargames with design-your-own scenarios (e.g. Squad Leader, Combat Commander, etc), and those examples don't require continually inventing new units.
Not quite... Magic drafts and cubes certainly could survive in this fashion, but competitive Magic (which is the major money source and the major attraction) is more like a wargame where you know how your opponent has set up and can work on your setup from that (and vice versa, however strange this might seem ). I'm not an expert by any means, but it seems like at any given time, there's a relatively small number of competitively viable deck ideas that dominate the metagame, and the champion is usually the one who has tweaked one of these few ideas most successfully. That is, variety in constructed Magic is many orders of magnitude smaller than it would seem from the number of cards and variety of their effects.

russ wrote:
In any case, I have seen plenty of Magic and other CCG players tout the variety and influx of new cards as a Good Thing that attracts them to the systems, so (regardless of whether newness/variety is necessary) it seems clear that, at least for some players, it is indeed an explicitly stated preference or desire.
Oh yes, sure, I agree.
 
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  • Posted Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:52 pm
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lewpuls wrote:
brilk wrote:
.If you want to take a shortcut and skip everything I've said, just hop on the Googs and look up Jon Finkel, Kai Budde, and Luis Scott Vargas. It ain't yomi.


I looked them up several months ago, thank you, when I was writing a summary of an Origins seminar by CCG designers. You've not changed my mind at all about Yomi in high level Magic.

Other people in this very forum have observed that the great appeal of Magic is variety. The people who design such games will tell you (have told me, including Garfield himself, at that seminar) that the object of the publisher is to change the game constantly, and that if the same deck or decks dominate from one year to the next, the publishers have screwed up. But one deck, or perhaps several, will dominate each year: the solution for that time.

This is almost always going to be the case: hard core game hobbyists will rarely like the idea that their game's appeal is variety rather than depth. They will always think their game is quite deep--of course, because there's more respect in the game hobby for depth than variety. Are they all right? Can't be, can they? Will anything convince them otherwise? Most unlikely. So there is no further point in this conversation, it has become "religious".



At absolutely no point did I claim the appeal of Magic was the depth of the game. While we're on the subject, though, I will say that the incredible depth of Magic keeps many people interested in the game once they begin playing.

As for the "religious" comment, I'm fairly certain there is more to back up my statement of depth than the standard "absolutely nothing" religious folk have. If you could explain to me how Magic's thousand-plus cards (we'll stick to only the standard format), ever-changing board states, large quantity of hidden and unknown information, and other aspects don't combine to create incredible depth, I would truly love to hear it. It's like chess where the puzzle you solve is constantly changing so you can't simply memorize a pattern. You have to actually learn how to play the game well to win consistently at Magic.

lewpuls wrote:
But one deck, or perhaps several, will dominate each year: the solution for that time.


I can interpret this multiple ways, so I'm not sure if you understand the situation as it actually occurs in Magic.

1: The format changes. People play modified versions of their old decks for a while.
2: Powerful new decks are created using either new cards or old cards that have been reevaluated. People mostly play these decks instead.
3: New decks are created that beat the other new decks.
4: Repeat 2 & 3 until a new set comes out and the format changes again.

The only time a deck truly dominates is when Wizards fails in the testing process (such as when Jace and Stoneforge Mystic were both legal at the same time in standard). Even then, you saw a large variety of new and old decks winning. U/W Jace decks just won more than the others. This isn't to say U/W Jace was the solution to the format (which I don't believe you can rationally claim). It's just the best deck people figured out while the cards were legal.

lewpuls wrote:
They will always think their game is quite deep--of course, because there's more respect in the game hobby for depth than variety. Are they all right? Can't be, can they? Will anything convince them otherwise? Most unlikely.


I love to be proven wrong! If you share that same quality, please let me know what it would take to convince you that Magic has depth.

Since you brought up religion, I'll say to you what I tell everyone pushing one of the multitude of religions on me: show me the evidence. Explain to me how the aspects of Magic that provide a large variety of incredibly complex decisions during games, drafting, etc. are not actually an example of depth. Give an explanation for how certain players seem to win so much more often than others (I'd particularly love to hear your views here since my limited rating tended to stay a bit over 2000 until they switched the system from ELO; I've never been the best, but I'm pretty good).

One qualifier: you can't just throw yomi at me again. That really only shows that you are not familiar with how Magic is played. I do require arguments that are not nonsensical in the context of Magic.
 
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  • Edited Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:52 pm
  • Posted Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:43 pm
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brilk wrote:
It's like chess where the puzzle you solve is constantly changing so you can't simply memorize a pattern. You have to actually learn how to play the game well to win consistently at Magic.

Tangent alert, but man, I wish this absurd and all too frequent assertion about chess would be put to rest...

Surely we all know that good chess players are not good merely by "memorizing patterns", but that they actually know how to play chess well and perform real strategic thinking... don't we?
 
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  • Posted Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:44 pm
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russ wrote:
brilk wrote:
It's like chess where the puzzle you solve is constantly changing so you can't simply memorize a pattern. You have to actually learn how to play the game well to win consistently at Magic.

Tangent alert, but man, I wish this absurd and all too frequent assertion about chess would be put to rest...

Surely we all know that good chess players are not good merely by "memorizing patterns", but that they actually know how to play chess well and perform real strategic thinking... don't we?


It's possible to perform well at chess by memorizing openings, etc. from the numerous books that have been written about the game. It is not possible to do this in Magic. Unlike Magic, chess has all options presented at all times and, regardless of how many years pass, they will never change.

The best chess players are obviously quite skilled at playing the game, though. I'm not even sure that any people have actually done what I described (memorize plays, but not "learn" the game). I'm only pointing out that this is an impossibility in Magic.

Nothing I said was to detract from chess in any way or make claims that chess players don't know how to play the game well. My apologies if it came across that way.
 
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  • Edited Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:15 pm
  • Posted Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:12 pm
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russ wrote:
brilk wrote:
It's like chess where the puzzle you solve is constantly changing so you can't simply memorize a pattern. You have to actually learn how to play the game well to win consistently at Magic.

Tangent alert, but man, I wish this absurd and all too frequent assertion about chess would be put to rest...

Surely we all know that good chess players are not good merely by "memorizing patterns", but that they actually know how to play chess well and perform real strategic thinking... don't we?

I don't think it's clear that there's a difference. I read an article on it recently, but I've lost the link. It was basically a study that showed memory was the main thing chess experts develop.

This article has a little of it. It mentions that general intelligence doesn't make one a good chess player, but strong memory skill does.
 
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  • Posted Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:43 pm
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Patrick Carroll wrote:
russ wrote:
brilk wrote:
It's like chess where the puzzle you solve is constantly changing so you can't simply memorize a pattern. You have to actually learn how to play the game well to win consistently at Magic.

Tangent alert, but man, I wish this absurd and all too frequent assertion about chess would be put to rest...

Surely we all know that good chess players are not good merely by "memorizing patterns", but that they actually know how to play chess well and perform real strategic thinking... don't we?

I don't think it's clear that there's a difference. I read an article on it recently, but I've lost the link. It was basically a study that showed memory was the main thing chess experts develop.

This article has a little of it. It mentions that general intelligence doesn't make one a good chess player, but strong memory skill does.

"Chunking" (as discussed in that article) is quite a different thing from "memorizing patterns" in the sense of literally learning specific sequences. A good chess player may well have memorized many specific openings, but after the several moves of that sequence are played out, they are going to be confronted with positions they have never seen or studied or memorized. That's where the higher level chunking comes in. E.g. I'm much more into go than chess, and I know plenty of good go players who have barely studied and memorized such opening sequences. Yet of course they have internalized "higher level" patterns. That's just part of becoming good at something; one abstracts out useful patterns that come up in various specific situations.

We do this "chunking" style pattern recognition in every task that we practice and improve at. That includes games like Magic - or does a Magic player really reason from first principles every time that his first play will probably be to bring out a land, instead of automatically knowing from experience and repetition that he needs to bring out land, for example? (It's been years since I played Magic, so pardon me if the example is broken; hopefully you grok what I mean.) That's just efficient automaticity, used by all skilled people, from musicians and artists to scientists and mathematicians and programmers.

You don't reach high levels by reinventing the wheel every day. You recognize useful higher level techniques and patterns that save you time and make you more efficient.

In the case of chess, one might criticize chess on the grounds that memorizing opening sequences seems necessary to become a great player, but to suggest that merely memorizing opening sequences is sufficient to become a great player is absurd. Yet over and over I see people assert that in the forums.

(So it's become a pet peeve. And I say that as someone who's not even particularly into chess. I'm just indignant on chess's behalf.)
 
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  • Posted Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:05 am
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Patrick Carroll wrote:
russ wrote:
brilk wrote:
It's like chess where the puzzle you solve is constantly changing so you can't simply memorize a pattern. You have to actually learn how to play the game well to win consistently at Magic.

Tangent alert, but man, I wish this absurd and all too frequent assertion about chess would be put to rest...

Surely we all know that good chess players are not good merely by "memorizing patterns", but that they actually know how to play chess well and perform real strategic thinking... don't we?

I don't think it's clear that there's a difference. I read an article on it recently, but I've lost the link. It was basically a study that showed memory was the main thing chess experts develop.

This article has a little of it. It mentions that general intelligence doesn't make one a good chess player, but strong memory skill does.


Patrick: you've just effectively stated that you don't think it's clear there's a difference between "memorizing patterns" and "[playing] chess well and [performing] real strategic thinking" in chess.

If this were so, then all chess could be played by pattern recognition. However, in my limited experience I believe it is the case that many top players go 'off piste' into new patterns, as a result of understanding the game through real tactical and strategic thinking.

I would like to see a coherent defence of your implied statement. I think it to an extent adheres to the OP, in that it's about 'depth'.

BenthamFish
 
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  • Posted Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:42 am
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Apologies for long post.

As we're discussing Magic in the context of 'depth', it might help to get back to the OP and the definition of 'depth'.

First, I'd like to get out of the way the 'breadth' or 'variety' issue. Personally I prefer 'width' as the contrast to depth, but I'd be content with breadth, variety or width. By 'width' I mean that there is lots of complication in the components, or lots of components per se, but this complication or volume of components forces players to work out and remember the mechanical details and how to apply them using a very constrained number of very similar approaches, rather than providing players with significantly different routes to victory.

Width is typified, for me, by a requirement to read the text on large numbers of cards before you are able to play the game competently. The board game Through The Ages has 'width'. It has 365 game cards with very few (if any) duplicates, but many of the cards do roughly the same thing. If you don't know the cards when you start playing, you'll have insufficient information to judge what are the best cards to buy. In my view, TTA also has depth. I mention this because I strongly believe that a game can have both width and depth, and the polarisation of these two concepts is, I think, a fundamental mistake.

Note I'll also NOT mention the word 'strategy' in this post, because I think it's entirely reasonable to have a deep tactical game.

I think there's little doubt that MTG has width (or variety or breadth if you prefer), and no-one has argued against that.

Lew has indicated his view of depth:
Quote:
...deep gameplay requires players to make many significant decisions, decisions that make a difference in the outcome of the game, and those decisions have multiple viable choices so the player can pick a better choice rather than a worse one, but more than one choice has a good chance to be successful. (A "viable" choice is one that, at least a reasonable part of the time, can lead to success, as opposed to "plausible" but not viable choices that look like they might work out well but rarely if ever will.) There is often an element of emergence in such games, choices (and sometimes decisions) that players don’t even recognize when they first play the game. This is often associated with decision trees, decisions that lead to others that lead to others and so on in a sort of tree shape, that give a good chance of success in the game. Yet perhaps paradoxically, if a game has *too many* decisions and *too many viable choices*, then it loses depth as each individual decision and choice becomes insignificant to the outcome of the whole.


I think we can encapsulate that, and some of my thoughts too, a bit more succinctly with four numbered points. Depth, in my view, has at least the following properties:

1 Significant player choices without obvious optimisation
2 Emergent routes to victory
3 Game play sequences can be usefully planned ahead of implementation
4 Skilled decision making has a significant effect on the outcome

Just a sentence or two on each of those might perhaps help.

1. You can have games with significant choices, but the good and bad ones are so obvious that most players will use only the good ones.

2. We've discussed this point earlier. Deep games often have what could be called "2nd or 3rd order" routes to victory, which only come to light after many plays of the game and some thought. Puerto Rico is a good example.

3. Planning is generally a feature of good players playing deep games...

4. ...but the planning and associated decision making has to have an effect. There are spuriously deep games where you can plan, but any old plan will do. For example, I have found that in Stevenson's Rocket there are many different types of action that make it *look* as if different plans will work, but in fact all the actions are so finely balanced that it doesn't really matter what you do - you'll still get the same number of VPs. I suspect this type of design has led to Lew's negative views of Eurogames, even though very few Eurogames seem to me to exhibit this trait.

Let's just test MTG against my four points.

1. The first choice a tournament MTG player makes is the choice of deck; for example will I design my own, go with one of the 'top' net decks, or modify an existing good deck? In most MTG environments (my experience is playing MTG tournaments for nearly ten years from 1993 or '94) there has never been an 'obvious' single deck to go with. Usually there are some top decks (or very important cards or combos) that must be taken into account. In one very large top UK tournament a single player went with a sideboard that included Circle of Protection: Red cards, judging that many good players would use a Red-oriented deck. He was right - other top players had judged that CoP:Red was too over-specific for the environment. That player came 2nd. That's simply one example that demonstrates the first criterion.

2. I would argue that all combo decks are emergent routes to victory. When a combo deck arrives, it may or may not have been foreseen by the design team. Prosp-Bloom is the most striking example that I'm aware of. The individual component of the deck type were not obvious to combine together, the deck was fiendishly difficult to play well (and therefore not totally dominant) - itself it had one route to tactical victory, but playing against it, one had to adapt the route to victory through both sideboarded cards and change to playing style.

3. If you played Magic without planning in advance how your deck was going to work in individual match-ups, and without planning sideboard cards to take into account other deck types, then you were not going to win.

4. This one would be obvious to any good Magic player. One example: I was playing in a tournament against a top UK player playing Prosp-Bloom. I was playing a control deck that was not a particularly good match up for him. With Prosp-Bloom there is a significant moment in the game when the deck will 'go off' and win, or 'go off' and fail. At that point, he spent 20 minutes thinking out a single action in his turn. As I knew my cards in hand and his deck, I knew that he had no margin for error at all. He calculated correctly and won the game. A less than perfect play would have lost him the game.

I hope that this long post has explained what I (at least) think about game depth. And also that Magic has both depth and width.

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  • Posted Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:52 am
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Alan Paull wrote:
Patrick: you've just effectively stated that you don't think it's clear there's a difference between "memorizing patterns" and "[playing] chess well and [performing] real strategic thinking" in chess.

If this were so, then all chess could be played by pattern recognition. However, in my limited experience I believe it is the case that many top players go 'off piste' into new patterns, as a result of understanding the game through real tactical and strategic thinking.

I would like to see a coherent defence of your implied statement. I think it to an extent adheres to the OP, in that it's about 'depth'.

I wish I could supply that. But all I was saying is that I've seen a few articles where the author called into question what's really involved in mastering chess--and each time it turned out that memory has a lot more to do with it than many people would like to admit.

Now, it could be that what we like to call "tactical and strategic thinking" is some kind of advanced, complex use of memory. And if we had all the facts and that turned out to be the case, then we'd probably do as Russ did above: we'd say, Yeah, but that's not just rote memorization of moves; it's "chunking" or something really cool. Still, it has to do only (or mainly) with the memory function of the brain.

The reason that seems important enough to have been the topic of the articles I read is that there's a prevalent belief among the general public that chess is a good test of general intelligence. As one article put it, chess is thought to be a "mental barbell"--an exercise that can make one mentally stronger overall, presumably by working the whole brain. But it turns out chess exercises only a pretty small part of the brain and doesn't have much of anything to do with general intelligence.

I bring that up just because I myself have bought into that myth. For much of my life, I've believed that if I could become a great chess player, I'd be great at everything I set out to do. I still think there may be some truth to that, but I no longer think it has anything to do with chess per se. If I put forth the discipline to become great at anything, I'd be strengthening my character and developing skills that I could then apply to other areas of life.
 
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  • Posted Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:02 pm
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Alan Paull wrote:

Note I'll also NOT mention the word 'strategy' in this post, because I think it's entirely reasonable to have a deep tactical game.


I've recently been thinking of this same conclusion. I've further thought that "depth" maybe isn't a consequence of what the decisions "are" so much as how many factors go into the decision. The more you have to weight different considerations, long-term vs. short-term issues, risk/reward, other player intentions, etc. the deeper the decision is. Games with larger decision spaces combined with multiple factors that influence those decisions tend to be deepest.
 
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  • Posted Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:06 pm
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Patrick Carroll wrote:
Alan Paull wrote:
Patrick: you've just effectively stated that you don't think it's clear there's a difference between "memorizing patterns" and "[playing] chess well and [performing] real strategic thinking" in chess.

If this were so, then all chess could be played by pattern recognition. However, in my limited experience I believe it is the case that many top players go 'off piste' into new patterns, as a result of understanding the game through real tactical and strategic thinking.

I would like to see a coherent defence of your implied statement. I think it to an extent adheres to the OP, in that it's about 'depth'.

I wish I could supply that. But all I was saying is that I've seen a few articles where the author called into question what's really involved in mastering chess--and each time it turned out that memory has a lot more to do with it than many people would like to admit.


I wouldn't question that memory has a lot to do with it, because memorising specific situations is a great aid to play in many games. In high level chess it seems obvious that memorising sequences would be an important practice: after all, it's timed, so you don't want to have to work out things from first principles each time.

Quote:
Now, it could be that what we like to call "tactical and strategic thinking" is some kind of advanced, complex use of memory. And if we had all the facts and that turned out to be the case, then we'd probably do as Russ did above: we'd say, Yeah, but that's not just rote memorization of moves; it's "chunking" or something really cool. Still, it has to do only (or mainly) with the memory function of the brain.


This is where the argument comes off the rails in my view. In the case of making moves in chess, we're talking about decision making. It's making the 'best' choice of a variety of possible moves. If there has been prior analysis, then the 'best' choice may be greatly facilitated by memory, even to the exclusion of conscious thought (I've never reached that level in chess). However, it doesn't follow from that, that there's no tactical and strategic thinking in high level chess - I think it's unlikely that many games are simply repeats of analysed sequences. If a particular game is not following a script, then the players must be using tactical and / or strategic thinking, which might even in some cases be part intuition - unless you're arguing that they're just guessing!

Further, I don't understand what you mean by 'advanced, complex use of memory', and particularly your follow on comment 'it has to do only (or mainly) with the memory function of the brain'. Memory in this context is only an aid to decision making. The decision still has to be made, and it will usually be made by a good player on the basis of judgement, not just memory. So the 'it' in question here is the decision on the basis of tactical and strategic thinking, which is aided by memory.

Quote:
The reason that seems important enough to have been the topic of the articles I read is that there's a prevalent belief among the general public that chess is a good test of general intelligence. As one article put it, chess is thought to be a "mental barbell"--an exercise that can make one mentally stronger overall, presumably by working the whole brain. But it turns out chess exercises only a pretty small part of the brain and doesn't have much of anything to do with general intelligence.

I bring that up just because I myself have bought into that myth. For much of my life, I've believed that if I could become a great chess player, I'd be great at everything I set out to do. I still think there may be some truth to that, but I no longer think it has anything to do with chess per se. If I put forth the discipline to become great at anything, I'd be strengthening my character and developing skills that I could then apply to other areas of life.


In the context of our discussion about depth and tactical / strategic thinking, 'general intelligence' is a red herring.

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  • Posted Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:19 pm
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lewpuls wrote:

Any "game" which you must practice 8 hours a day to be a top player, is a sport, not a game as we usually talk about them. Popular sports are rarely deep, as that would put off the audience that spends the money that helps make them popular. Hmmm, is American football a deep game? For the players, no; for the coaches, there is certainly some depth in the Xs and Os. More than in, say, basketball. But a lot of what makes for winning sports teams is psychology. Perhaps psychological depth rather than systemic depth.


I'm still not convinced the game/sport dichotomy is useful for anything other than ivory tower divisions between things high and low (at least, that's how I've seen it used in my experience). I've taught several college athletes and I've always been impressed with their formidable understanding of the game and the depth of their particular play.

But, let's even allow that rude distinction. What about negotiation games like Diplomacy which reward players for both their rhetorical skill, general delivery as well as their more strategic thinking? I would hazard to guess that the first two can be practiced and "worked out." Does this practice disqualify Diplomacy from sitting among other pure games. (Cf. conversations around Chess and memory, many of the top players I know study books of games constantly).


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There are games with significant decisions and choices that are nonetheless not very deep. It's the number and the "tree" structure (and perhaps the emergence) that makes the game deep. But a game with a very large number of decisions and choices may not be deep, because each decision and choice is by itself insignificant.


What definition of "significant" are you working under? Also, in this instance you seem to be measuring depth by the variety of problems that arises out of a single starting position (the tree that grows?) Depth, along these lines, appears to manifest itself in that emergent variably (whereas, you might argue, a pairing of Magic decks only operates in a small range of possibility). This understanding simply strikes me as being too narrow and prone to false comparisons (i.e. game systems become failed, shallow games) to have any value.

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  • Posted Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:34 pm
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Mezmorki wrote:
Alan Paull wrote:

Note I'll also NOT mention the word 'strategy' in this post, because I think it's entirely reasonable to have a deep tactical game.


I've recently been thinking of this same conclusion. I've further thought that "depth" maybe isn't a consequence of what the decisions "are" so much as how many factors go into the decision. The more you have to weight different considerations, long-term vs. short-term issues, risk/reward, other player intentions, etc. the deeper the decision is. Games with larger decision spaces combined with multiple factors that influence those decisions tend to be deepest.


That's why I think a definition of 'depth' is quite important, or we end up not talking about the same concept. I think that maybe what you've suggested here is 'complexity of decision making', rather than necessarily depth of a game system. I would agree that the decisions in a game with depth are likely to be those where you have to weigh up many factors - this may be elaboration of the concepts 'there shouldn't be obvious optimisation', and that 'decision making should be skilled'.

Perhaps there needs to be another point about the size of decision space? Can you have a game with depth that has a small decision space? I would say it's possible - High Frontier perhaps; the decisions you make are very complex and complicated, but the actual range of choices is quite small.

On the other hand there are games with quite a large decision space and multiple factors to take into account, but that may be quite shallow - the Command and Colors system for example.

Still food for much thought.

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  • Posted Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:51 pm
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Alan Paull wrote:
Patrick Carroll wrote:
Now, it could be that what we like to call "tactical and strategic thinking" is some kind of advanced, complex use of memory. And if we had all the facts and that turned out to be the case, then we'd probably do as Russ did above: we'd say, Yeah, but that's not just rote memorization of moves; it's "chunking" or something really cool. Still, it has to do only (or mainly) with the memory function of the brain.

This is where the argument comes off the rails in my view. In the case of making moves in chess, we're talking about decision making. It's making the 'best' choice of a variety of possible moves. If there has been prior analysis, then the 'best' choice may be greatly facilitated by memory, even to the exclusion of conscious thought (I've never reached that level in chess). However, it doesn't follow from that, that there's no tactical and strategic thinking in high level chess - I think it's unlikely that many games are simply repeats of analysed sequences. If a particular game is not following a script, then the players must be using tactical and / or strategic thinking, which might even in some cases be part intuition - unless you're arguing that they're just guessing!

I guess I'm just wondering what "tactical and strategic thinking" actually is, and whether it can exist entirely apart from memorization.

Sure, a decision still has to be made. But if all a chess master does is check his memory banks, dismiss weak lines of play, focus on strong ones, narrow the possibilities down, and eventually choose the best move, then his decision is based entirely on what he remembers working or not working. Even if he's dealing with a brand-new situation, he may be noting similarities to other situations and evaluating accordingly.

To some people, that may be laudable, but to me it all sounds quite mechanical--like something you could program a computer to do.

When I hear the phrase "tactical and strategic thinking," I'm picturing something different than what I sketched out above. I'm guessing that the chess master gazes at the board position, catches an assortment of promising possibilities at a glance, then turns to principles of good play to evaluate the possibilities. He might, for instance, think, "No, I can't move my knight there, simply because it's bad practice to do that in a situation like this." Just before making his move, he might work out the details of what will happen two or three turns ahead, but I want to believe that's a small part of his thought process.

If the chess master is working from principles he has learned (although there's no doubt some memory involved there too) and just seeing signs of strength and weakness where we ordinary players would not see anything, then there's some of what I'd call "tactical and strategic thinking" going on. Something more mysterious and interesting than memorization or calculation of any kind. Something that's at least partly intuitive.

Quote:
Further, I don't understand what you mean by 'advanced, complex use of memory', and particularly your follow on comment 'it has to do only (or mainly) with the memory function of the brain'. Memory in this context is only an aid to decision making. The decision still has to be made, and it will usually be made by a good player on the basis of judgement, not just memory. So the 'it' in question here is the decision on the basis of tactical and strategic thinking, which is aided by memory.

But a computer can be programmed to make a decision. Everything that goes into that, however, must be purely "mechanical," since computers don't actually think. What I'm saying is that if all a chess player does when he engages in what we're calling "tactical and strategic thinking" is something a computer could be made to do, it's not very impressive, no matter how hard it might be for me to do. If the human mind is as "mechanical" as a computer (and I'm inclined to believe that's so), it's a bit of a disappointment. Because where, then, is the magic and wonder in a chess brilliancy? If it doesn't come from the mysterious workings of a brilliant mind and involve intuition, hunches, or other things we don't understand, what's so brilliant about it?

Furthermore, it raises a question: If I apply myself to studying and practicing and eventually mastering chess, am I merely training myself to think like a machine? If so, chess might actually be counterproductive as an educational tool or mind-training device. I might unwittingly be training myself to think mechanincally instead of making intuitive leaps outside the box.

Quote:
In the context of our discussion about depth and tactical / strategic thinking, 'general intelligence' is a red herring.

Yes, but it's what one of the articles I alluded to covered, so I had to own up to that. It also ties in with my interest in this thread, because unless "tactical and strategic thinking" or "game depth" or "depth of decision making" is a wonderful, beneficial thing to aspire to and acquire more of, it's a waste of time at best. It might even, as I mentioned above, be counterproductive.

For me, the first question to be settled is whether what we're talking about is worthwhile or meaningful. If chess (or Magic or any other game) is basically just a silly time waster, there's no point in having a discussion like this.
 
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  • Posted Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:09 pm
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As a clinician who publishes in the field of hippocampus-based memory, I would caution anyone looking to define game "depth" as a function of cognition to be careful about the assumptions that they may make re. the memory systems and loads that may be involved. For instance, pattern completion and pattern separation are ubiquitous in memory function and both are implicated in the encoding and retrieval of declarative memory. So while it may feel satisfying to suppose that game X derives its depth from pattern completion while game Y is merely an exercise in "memory", unless you are *very* specific about the context, there is a good chance you're talking about the same thing.

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  • Posted Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:26 pm
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Alan Paull wrote:
Mezmorki wrote:
Alan Paull wrote:

Note I'll also NOT mention the word 'strategy' in this post, because I think it's entirely reasonable to have a deep tactical game.


I've recently been thinking of this same conclusion. I've further thought that "depth" maybe isn't a consequence of what the decisions "are" so much as how many factors go into the decision. The more you have to weight different considerations, long-term vs. short-term issues, risk/reward, other player intentions, etc. the deeper the decision is. Games with larger decision spaces combined with multiple factors that influence those decisions tend to be deepest.


That's why I think a definition of 'depth' is quite important, or we end up not talking about the same concept. I think that maybe what you've suggested here is 'complexity of decision making', rather than necessarily depth of a game system. I would agree that the decisions in a game with depth are likely to be those where you have to weigh up many factors - this may be elaboration of the concepts 'there shouldn't be obvious optimisation', and that 'decision making should be skilled'.


Yes, I see your point ... and I do rather like your four point list from earlier (and quoted below) as a working definition of depth.

Alan Paull wrote:

...

Depth, in my view, has at least the following properties:

1 Significant player choices without obvious optimization
2 Emergent routes to victory
3 Game play sequences can be usefully planned ahead of implementation
4 Skilled decision making has a significant effect on the outcome


Stepping back, I see this dichotomy coming out of the OP and other posts between High Depth "games" and one end and lower depth (?) "puzzles" on the other. Ignoring which games one might cast on end of the spectrum or another ... does this even make sense or is it a false dichotomy?

In a certain way, I could imagine making an argument for any game that depth is an illusion and all games are puzzles, even if its a puzzle "of the moment." Likewise, I can see valid arguments that no games are "puzzles" and its just a matter of relative depth.



 
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  • Posted Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:42 pm
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Patrick Carroll wrote:
Alan Paull wrote:
Patrick Carroll wrote:
Now, it could be that what we like to call "tactical and strategic thinking" is some kind of advanced, complex use of memory. And if we had all the facts and that turned out to be the case, then we'd probably do as Russ did above: we'd say, Yeah, but that's not just rote memorization of moves; it's "chunking" or something really cool. Still, it has to do only (or mainly) with the memory function of the brain.

This is where the argument comes off the rails in my view. In the case of making moves in chess, we're talking about decision making. It's making the 'best' choice of a variety of possible moves. If there has been prior analysis, then the 'best' choice may be greatly facilitated by memory, even to the exclusion of conscious thought (I've never reached that level in chess). However, it doesn't follow from that, that there's no tactical and strategic thinking in high level chess - I think it's unlikely that many games are simply repeats of analysed sequences. If a particular game is not following a script, then the players must be using tactical and / or strategic thinking, which might even in some cases be part intuition - unless you're arguing that they're just guessing!

I guess I'm just wondering what "tactical and strategic thinking" actually is, and whether it can exist entirely apart from memorization.


I don't think that's a particularly interesting question, skipping that you've used the word 'memorization' instead of 'memory'. You seem determined to attempt to dismiss the concepts of tactical and strategic thinking, which is to deny the experience of many thousands of years of military history, let alone game playing, game theory and so on. Sorry, but you're on your own down that particular road.

Patrick Carroll wrote:
Sure, a decision still has to be made. But if all a chess master does is check his memory banks, dismiss weak lines of play, focus on strong ones, narrow the possibilities down, and eventually choose the best move, then his decision is based entirely on what he remembers working or not working. Even if he's dealing with a brand-new situation, he may be noting similarities to other situations and evaluating accordingly.


If you can't appreciate that what you've just described is more than memory, then this discussion is pointless. You've used concepts like 'dismiss weak lines of play', 'focus on strong ones', 'narrow the possibilities down', 'choose the best move'. All of these require judgement, not simply memory - they are all qualitative, not quantitative.

Patrick Carroll wrote:
To some people, that may be laudable, but to me it all sounds quite mechanical--like something you could program a computer to do.


You can program a computer to calculate some of this chess thinking - it's already been done, as you know. But that's an attempt to do a massive number-crunching exercise in an area of perfect information and to include some of the essence of the experience of chess masters (in other words, *their* tactical and strategic thinking). While applicable to chess, which is amenable to number-crunching (though it's difficult enough), it doesn't mean this approach can be used in games where there's less than perfect information.

Patrick Carroll wrote:
When I hear the phrase "tactical and strategic thinking," I'm picturing something different than what I sketched out above. I'm guessing that the chess master gazes at the board position, catches an assortment of promising possibilities at a glance, then turns to principles of good play to evaluate the possibilities. He might, for instance, think, "No, I can't move my knight there, simply because it's bad practice to do that in a situation like this." Just before making his move, he might work out the details of what will happen two or three turns ahead, but I want to believe that's a small part of his thought process.

If the chess master is working from principles he has learned (although there's no doubt some memory involved there too) and just seeing signs of strength and weakness where we ordinary players would not see anything, then there's some of what I'd call "tactical and strategic thinking" going on. Something more mysterious and interesting than memorization or calculation of any kind. Something that's at least partly intuitive.


I don't understand why you don't think there's quite normal types of analytical and systems thinking going on.

Patrick Carroll wrote:
Quote:
Further, I don't understand what you mean by 'advanced, complex use of memory', and particularly your follow on comment 'it has to do only (or mainly) with the memory function of the brain'. Memory in this context is only an aid to decision making. The decision still has to be made, and it will usually be made by a good player on the basis of judgement, not just memory. So the 'it' in question here is the decision on the basis of tactical and strategic thinking, which is aided by memory.

But a computer can be programmed to make a decision. Everything that goes into that, however, must be purely "mechanical," since computers don't actually think. What I'm saying is that if all a chess player does when he engages in what we're calling "tactical and strategic thinking" is something a computer could be made to do, it's not very impressive, no matter how hard it might be for me to do. If the human mind is as "mechanical" as a computer (and I'm inclined to believe that's so), it's a bit of a disappointment. Because where, then, is the magic and wonder in a chess brilliancy? If it doesn't come from the mysterious workings of a brilliant mind and involve intuition, hunches, or other things we don't understand, what's so brilliant about it?


The human mind is not "mechanical" or I would have given up on this conversation long ago :-). I think I'm about done with this line of reasoning.

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  • Posted Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:45 pm
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Lewis when you talk about RPGs you only seem to talk about D&D. You don't mention the vast range of other RPGs. Some of which stress more narrative depth, more player problem solving, some like D&D4 stress a more gamist approach. Some games are more deadly than others - depending on genre and feel (if you are playing a pulpy action movie style game then death should be rare for the heroes). Some RPGs (CoC - I'm looking at you) have barely changed in the past 30 years and are still popular.

As a keen RPGer (and one for the past 30 years) I'm not sure what you mean about more gameplay depth wrt RPGs. I would appreciate a bit more detail on exactly what you mean.

As well as ignoring other games apart from D&D, even those games which have been around for 30+ years, it doesn't even acknowledge the Old School Renaissance where people have created their own games with similar rules and feel to BECMI D&D and AD&D1 which are proving popular amongst a subset of gamers.
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  • Posted Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:26 pm
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I don't know.

Back when I was a wee wargamer in the 70s, we were always into the hype machine just as much as we are now. The "Upcoming Attractions" section of the General always was telling us what was coming out, and how great it would be. Kinda like now.

But, back then, there was really only AH, (or SPI if you rolled that way, I did not), putting out those games. Now look at all the publishers. So much more variety.

Things have most definitely changed, but I'm not sure I agree with you as to why things have changed...
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  • Posted Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:11 am
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Windopaene wrote:
I don't know.

Back when I was a wee wargamer in the 70s, we were always into the hype machine just as much as we are now. The "Upcoming Attractions" section of the General always was telling us what was coming out, and how great it would be. Kinda like now.

But, back then, there was really only AH, (or SPI if you rolled that way, I did not), putting out those games. Now look at all the publishers. So much more variety.

Things have most definitely changed, but I'm not sure I agree with you as to why things have changed...


If you had "rolled that way", you would have found, in the seventies, that SPI put out a huge variety of games, in comparison to AH.

That's what caught my eye, in reading the original premise, above, until I realized the OP actually meant something quite different by "variety".
 
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  • Posted Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:02 pm
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A diagram of how things have changed? (Click for larger)

 
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  • Posted Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:07 am
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Oliver Kiley
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lewpuls wrote:
A diagram of how things have changed? (Click for larger)



What on earth is that graph based on?

I know I've been contrary in many of your posts ... but it isn't specifically because I disagree with you (although I often do), but rather I find your claims lacking in terms of evidence or reasoning - even flying in face of other peoples' conclusions.

The graph above might be correct, but without any discussion of where the data is coming from or what it is based on to substantiate it I find it really hard to accept at face value.

Besides, what do you mean by each of those terms (puzzle, story, depth) ... it seems to be that variety and re-playability within the context of the same game go hand in hand, so that's odd to me as well. Bah...

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  • Posted Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:48 am
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Cole Wehrle
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lewpuls wrote:
A diagram of how things have changed? (Click for larger)



Alright, I'm still totally puzzled by the dissonance between variety and depth. Primarily, if the variety of games is increasing, doesn't that include games that have depth? After all, 2006, for instance, brought the gaming world both Command and Colors Ancients and Here I Stand. Is the depth measurement some kind of strange average of every title produced, and, if so, what purpose does that serve given the wide variety of gaming communities?
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  • Posted Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:00 pm
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Cole Wehrle
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lewpuls wrote:
A diagram of how things have changed? (Click for larger)



Wait, now I understand. The midpoint, that sublime convergence of all traits, it must hover around the mid 1980s and the apex of design *brass fanfare* Britannia!
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  • Posted Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:03 pm
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Lewis Pulsipher
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Variety usually contributes to replayability, though too much variety (as in, too many rules and too much fiddliness) does the opposite. Of course, variety here refers to a variety of games, the well-known tendency of gamers nowadays to play a game 1 or 2 or 3 times and then move on to another. That's where the desire for variety so strongly manifests.

"...where the data is coming from or what it is based on to substantiate"? Oliver, what *practically collectible* data could possibly support or disprove this graph? Even if you had broadly-administered surveys from 50 years ago that have been administered at intervals since, surveys cannot sufficiently define the terms. Most of these ideas are not quantifiable.

It's entirely possible to make a chart to summarize points, without having quantifiable numbers. The point of a chart is "picture worth a thousand words", not that a chart is somehow automatically objective. As I've noted before, "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."--Albert Einstein

Most BGGers haven't been playing games anywhere near 50 years. How much can they intelligently discuss 50 year trends that have not been (are not susceptible to be) quantified or surveyed? This chart is my observation, not gospel.

Of course, even with numbers you are far from gospel. Read: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20040301.html, Jakob Nielsen's Alertbox, March 1, 2004, Risks of Quantitative Studies.
 
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  • Posted Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:09 pm
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lewpuls wrote:
Most BGGers haven't been playing games anywhere near 50 years. How much can they intelligently discuss 50 year trends that have not been (are not susceptible to be) quantified or surveyed?

Are you suggesting you have, Mr. Pulsipher? That's a pretty big claim for someone who's never played the 1997 classic Tigris & Euphrates and whose table time is devoted mostly to RPG's.
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  • Posted Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:51 pm
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Oliver Kiley
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lewpuls wrote:
Variety usually contributes to replayability, though too much variety (as in, too many rules and too much fiddliness) does the opposite. Of course, variety here refers to a variety of games, the well-known tendency of gamers nowadays to play a game 1 or 2 or 3 times and then move on to another. That's where the desire for variety so strongly manifests.

"...where the data is coming from or what it is based on to substantiate"? Oliver, what *practically collectible* data could possibly support or disprove this graph? Even if you had broadly-administered surveys from 50 years ago that have been administered at intervals since, surveys cannot sufficiently define the terms. Most of these ideas are not quantifiable.


Well, one could look at average weight (as ranked by BGG users) per year from 1960 to today. BGG has a lot of data, some of it of course subjective in nature, but no less valid from the standpoint of reasonable evidence to use in constructing a supported argument.

lewpuls wrote:
It's entirely possible to make a chart to summarize points, without having quantifiable numbers. The point of a chart is "picture worth a thousand words", not that a chart is somehow automatically objective. As I've noted before, "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."--Albert Einstein

Most BGGers haven't been playing games anywhere near 50 years. How much can they intelligently discuss 50 year trends that have not been (are not susceptible to be) quantified or surveyed? This chart is my observation, not gospel.


That's completely fine ... I'm just saying that it would be helpful to state that such claims are based on your observations so we know where its coming from. I assumed you made the chart, but I didn't know for certain of course.

lewpuls wrote:
Of course, even with numbers you are far from gospel. Read: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20040301.html, Jakob Nielsen's Alertbox, March 1, 2004, Risks of Quantitative Studies.


Sure ... but whether one is using numbers of qualitative statements, an argument/warrant is nonetheless strengthened by making relevant claims that support it.

I'm not terribly bothered by your ultimate conclusions on trends in depth versus variety (you may be right as I said) ... but the insight in that conclusion comes from "why" that might be case. I think the answer is a more complex than just "gamers desires for less deep but greater variety games," and that your graph might be indicative of correlation rather than causation.

I think the answer may also have to do with the expanding size of the hobby game market, what publishers feel they can market effectively, what games designers are interested in making, etc. But even then, there are plenty of highly deep / complex games that have been made in the modern boardgame era that players play repeatedly, look at many of the games in the top 100 for instances.

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  • Posted Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:11 pm
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Eugene
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Mezmorki wrote:
I think the answer may also have to do with the expanding size of the hobby game market...

Not the case:

lewpuls wrote:
the boardgame hobby, if it's larger, is larger because the overall population in first-world countries has increased a lot in 40 years.

 
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  • Posted Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:26 pm
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