CoH Unit Point Values v01 Beta | Conflict of Heroes: Storms of Steel! Kursk 1943

René Seidel

Germany
Hettstedt

All in all the proposed unit point values are very acceptable.

Here some comments:

The designations of the 8,8 Flak 18 is not KWK (Kampfwagenkanone) 36 L 56. The weapon from the Tiger I used the designation KWK. The KWK had not the ability to engage aircraft.

In my opinion the Tiger I should have a higher point value. 165 is to low in comparison with the Panther D (175). The Panther D was prone to malfunctions. The early Tiger I was a formidable weapon in 1943.

I´am missing the T-26 from PoH and the soviet used Churchill III from SoS.

The point value of the SU-152 should also be higher. It was a more dangerous enemy for the german armour than the Su-122, which was disappointing against german armour.

Posted Sun May 8, 2011 12:48 pm
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uwe eickert

(uweeickert)

United States
Helena
Ohio

Great points René. I will check on these values.
I am not sure about the Panther D vs the early Tiger I. Yes, the Panther had transmission problems, but the Tiger did not have an MG. Also, the Panther was a bit more versatile. Hmmm.... Again, everything can be interpreted in different ways.

Posted Mon May 9, 2011 12:39 am
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René Seidel

(Renatus2)

Germany
Hettstedt

Thanks for your answer.

I have read once again in Spielberger, "Der Panzerkampfwagen Tiger und seine Abarten". It´s a very interisting book about the Tiger. Perhaps you know it. According to Spielberger the Tiger I, also the early version did have two MG 34, one Bow-MG and one Turret-MG.

The Jagdpanzer Ferdinand on the Porsche-Tiger Chassis with the 8,8 PAK 43 L/71 gun had no MG in 1943. That´s why this formidable antitank weapon was very vulnerable in close combat. 40 of 90 vehicles were lost during Kursk and the following weeks. The remaining 50 vehicles were reworked and got a bow MG. The new designation of the vehicle was than Elefant. The germans used them against the Soviet. But one company was directed against the Anzio beachead in Italy.

SoS is a very good game. But I´m missing the Ferdinands.

Perhaps it´s a good theme for a really Kursk-expansion. The Sturmpanzer Brummbär on Panzer IV Chassis, the Hornisse/Nashorn self propelled antitank gun and the remote controlled Borgward IV charge carrier could also be part of an Kursk expansion.

Posted Mon May 9, 2011 12:25 pm
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uwe eickert

(uweeickert)

United States
Helena
Ohio

Rene, This is interesting. Can you do me a favor and check on the Tigers at Kursk? I thought that the bow machine gun was added later.

We will be adding Ferdinands, Brummbär, PzJäger, and others as an additional sheet soon. This extra sheet will fit in somewhere between the publications of Guadalcanal, the invasion of France and the Lowlands, American Airborne Invasions, Kreta and the Abyssinian war.

Edited Tue May 10, 2011 4:44 pm
Posted Tue May 10, 2011 4:33 pm
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René Seidel

(Renatus2)

Germany
Hettstedt

I have checked on the Tigers at Kursk. I´am convinced, the Tigers at Kursk had a bow MG. The Tiger I had a bow MG from the beginning.

I read in different reference books. Look at the pictures in the following books:

Spielberger/Doyle, Der Panzerkampfwagen Tiger und seine Abarten, 7. Auflage, 2003 (There is also a english edition of this book).

Jentz, Tiger I & II, Kampf und Taktik, 2000 (The english original edition has the title "Germany´s TIGER TANKS, Vol. III).

Lochmann/von Rosen/Rubbel, Erinnerungen an die Tigerabteilung 503, 2. Aufl., 2010 (a book written from members of the unit with very interesting pictures).

You can also look at the drawings in the osprey title from Mark Healy, Campaign No. 16, Kursk 1943 on pages 30 and 63.

A additional sheet with the Ferdinand, Brummbär and other vehicles is a good idea.

Posted Thu May 12, 2011 8:40 pm
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Wulf Corbett

(Wulf Corbett)

Scotland
Shotts
Lanarkshire

I've certainly never heard of a Tiger without a bow MG. The Ferdinand tank destroyer had none (when it was added it was renamed the Elefant).

Posted Thu May 12, 2011 8:45 pm
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Nick B.

(Nickos)

Germany

Very interesting!
On the first look, the numbers of the point values seems really chaotic.
But after some math', it's seems to be good - i like the fact, that i have to look carefully, which troops i choose - because a Tank Platoon of Panthers is deadly, but for the points - my enemy can overrun me with a huge human wave attack of ihis Infantry.

I'm missing a unit too - the good old Flamtank from Storms of Steel.
I'll hope that you carry on - a scenario system and also values for Cards and CAPs could be necessary.

Maybe we can see some more Firefights, with this system it's easier to create balanced scenarios.

Posted Sun May 22, 2011 2:30 pm
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uwe eickert

(uweeickert)

United States
Helena
Ohio

Bruce Graumlich is working on the rest of the numbers, including the Japanese and American units.

Posted Mon May 23, 2011 5:12 am
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(wanderer1976)

Germany

Hi Uwe,
great to see that you putting some work in a point system. The COH series is a great gameboard so far, the point system could stimulate custom scenario building and is what gamers like me waited for to give the system a even more miniature game flavor.

I was looking really hard for a point system to coh, so i created a own one. I would like to share some ideas about it.

But first one Question to the (beta) point costs so far. Is with Churchill IV the Churchill Mark III meant ? Because 83 points for the Mark III compared to T34/76C m43 84 points dont seem to be justified?

Posted Sat Jul 9, 2011 2:42 pm
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uwe eickert

(uweeickert)

United States
Helena
Ohio

This looks very interesting and I like how you use the defense ratings and then square them. Can you send me a copy of the spread sheet to my email address? uwe@academy-games.com

Thanks,
Uwe

Posted Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:59 pm
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(wanderer1976)

Germany

Hi Uwe,
i sent you the Excel-Sheet via my web.de Account. The E-Mail is in German.

Hope to hear some feedbacl from you.

Posted Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:53 pm
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uwe eickert

(uweeickert)

United States
Helena
Ohio

Thanks, I did receive it and will begin to review it!

I like your idea of squaring the unit value spread.

Posted Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:36 pm
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Robert Hamilton

(bobsalt)

United States

Kentucky

I'd be interested in seeing this as well. Would you mind e-mailing to bobvolley40@yahoo.com?

Thanks - Bob

Posted Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:51 am
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uwe eickert

(uweeickert)

United States
Helena
Ohio

I have no problem with this. The more eyes that see it and give positive critiques, the better.

Posted Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:04 pm
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(wanderer1976)

Germany

Sorry Bob for the waiting,
i did some serious changes and just want to finish with them before further sharing it. I Email you as soon as it is done. Thank you for your interest.

Posted Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:28 pm
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uwe eickert

(uweeickert)

United States
Helena
Ohio

There is a tremendous difference in the heavy tank costs vs infantry. My thought is that players divide their armored vehicle and soft target force pools. Ex: For a late war game 1000 armored points and 300 soft target points, etc.

This also reflects the propensity for infantry vs tanks, etc. I also like that the Panthers cost ~3x more than a T-34.

Thoughts?

Posted Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:06 pm
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(wanderer1976)

Germany

Please, look here for an alternative system, that might get the official.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/69000/conflict-of-hero...

Posted Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:40 am
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