Game: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition

Thread: Re: Twilight Imperium 3rd Ed & Shattered Suns - fresh out of the box.

Liumas — 2008-05-15T11:01:24+00:00

I get it, really.

Chanfan wrote:
... other than removing the shrink wrap, there was little to do there.
[size=18]Session Report Of The Month ![/size]

At least.

Thread: Twilight Imperium 3rd Ed & Shattered Suns - fresh out of the box.

Chanfan — 2008-05-15T07:46:36+00:00

Having received TI3 and Shattered Suns as a combo deal, I could hardly wait to get home and dig into the boxes. Work wrapped up, the train sped me home, the location that the box was hidden at was dragged out of my wife, now it could start.

[size=14]Map Building Phase[/size]
[size=10]Things were both impressive and fun straight out of the box. There was a bit of a learning curve initially, and a few barriers to break. These proved to be not that great of an issue, and soon the hexagons were stacking up pleasantly. I thought the layout was confusing at first, but with a bit of sorting, things were moving along nicely. The map taken care of, it was on to the rest of the game.[/size]

[size=14]Early Game[/size]
[size=10]While it was very tempting to get right to the thick of things, one must take the intervening steps first, and this was no exception. The racial tokens took some time to sort out, but sort out they did. While I had read that the Strategy Cards presented some folks with a conundrum, I just couldn't see it. They seemed to come easy to me, the order of selection obvious.

Things moved along at a steady pace, trade tokens being acquired, along with extra troops and fighters. I'd gone about as far as I could go without starting into the expansive fleets. Some of the Shattered Sun variants were intimidating, but ultimately presented little more difficulty than the base set.[/size]

[size=14]Time for Space Battles[/size]
[size=10]The acquisition of the first few ships proved to be more difficult than I had imagined. I found even getting a fighter or PDS relatively difficult at first, despite having read advice on the geek on how to go about it. By the time it had come to the War Suns, however, the process had been streamlined and seemed easy. My fleet was indeed mighty! Many "Pew-Pew" noises were made as each ship was added to the collection. Eventually, however, fleet options were exhausted and the game was nearing the end.[/size]

[size=14]Wrapping Up and Conclusions[/size]
[size=10]The end clearly in site, I checked the time. It was quite late, and I discovered the estimated four hour play time had already passed. Still, I felt pretty satisfied overall. The base game certainly delivers on the goods in spades. The expansion adds things in groups, that while sometimes confusing to sort out, seemed to mesh well.

The play time was shortened by the expansion having the fleets pre-cut, so I didn't have to use my newly purchase sprue-cutters, I only had to sort by color. I found sorting the tokens to be pretty clear overall. The special hex and some of the unusual tokens in the expansion were confusing at first, but added an element of mystery to the play of the game.

I found the game very enjoyable, and it taxed my ziploc baggie collection to it's limits. One disappointment turned out to be the cards. They were pre-sorted, so other than removing the shrink wrap, there was little to do there. The expansion corrects this error somewhat by having replacement cards, but otherwise, they too were sorted.

In a final stroke of genius, the folks at Fantasy Flight included two sets of rules. At first I scoffed at this, as the play of the game had seemed inherently obvious. It turns out that once you've exhausted your initial play of the game, there's more to do other than open up the box, stare at the carefully bagged components, and reminisce on your past victory.

Get this - they've come up with a system for using the tokens and pieces after you've sorted them. Brilliant! Whomever wrote it seems to have come up with ideas for each and every piece and card! Not only that, but they've turned it into a social occasion, as you need to invite several friends over to help you out.

Of course, these rules appear unnecessarily complex - my friends know how to make "pew-pew" noises on their own. But I can understand and forgive the complexity, due to the end result - almost every card and piece will be mixed up or out of its bag! The game has been reset in a manner that really sneaks up on you. Not quite the same as the first play - counters are no longer in the cardboard frames, and ships are already clipped - but not bad replayability at all.

My hat's off to Fantasy Flight for going to that extra effort. Now I just have to collect up some folks, and I'll get a second play in soon. I'm already looking forward to it. [/size]

Image

tawnos76 — 2008-05-15T06:08:15+00:00

Requested Variant Discworld Tile for TI3 Games

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tawnos76 — 2008-05-15T03:31:28+00:00

Planet Card for the Discworld Tile

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tawnos76 — 2008-05-15T03:31:01+00:00

Discworld for TI3 - Gives a credit to any tech.

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antonmarcelo — 2008-05-15T02:30:24+00:00

Where is my Ships ? I need to play !!!!

Thread: Re: Searching Players - Montreal

olivier514 — 2008-05-14T08:06:07+00:00

Ok great, so far 3 players around montreal region that are willing to play. The best first game will be at least 5 players, and Isaac seem willing to start right away with the expansion, that look much much better and fun.

What people think for a first game ?

Olivier
PS: i am also near Sherbrooke metro

Thread: Re: Searching Players - Montreal

jchavanton — 2008-05-14T07:52:44+00:00

Hi Olivier,

I posted a message to find some challenger to play TI3 I never play the game but I have the rules book in pdf and I was willing to buy it.

Isaac, as sent me a message to let me know that I was not alone looking for great strategy partner !

Julien Chavanton
jchavanton@gmail.com
I leave near metro Sherbrooke in Montreal

Thread: Re: How do you ever find time to finish this game?

Sandy Petersen — 2008-05-14T07:04:31+00:00

well now we have managed to finish the game a couple of times.

Basically I watch the game like a hawk, and try to keep the turn moving. If someone is building or researching, we go to the next guy while he finishes his turn. It is kind of exhausting - i feel like the game "mommy". But at least it doesn't take 12 hours to play.

I also find that if I start picking the 2-point VP card, then other people start picking it too, to keep it out of my hands. Which speeds up the game as well.

We do use the expansion, but I don't let the group use any of the rules that lengthen the game. Though sometimes some of the players whine I figure it's for the group

However, we still occasionally have the problem of the player who basically needs to have the rules re-explained to him each turn. Of course, that's not unique to TI3.

Thread: Re: Varients to make Twilight Imperium a 6 hr game

metelo — 2008-05-14T05:49:38+00:00

Count me as another one that thought they were trying to make the game take longer..

Our early games used to take 6 to 8 hours.. we even had a 8 player game that took 14 hours...

But them we start to play the game a lot faster with experienced players with no propensity for AP, and a long attention span.

Fron that point on, our games has been going under 3.5 h for 5 or 6 players...

Only once we finished the game in 3.5 through Imperium REX, but we were low on point, so we decided to ignore the end game, and played for 7H just to stay in the same relative point score.. but bashed each other like crazy (nobody was really focusing in scoring points... Just fighting for the sake of fighting after Iperium Rex came out..

A few things that Help shroting the game from 8 to about 4h...
- Always play with the Public obejctives open (Imperial II style)
- Have a player control the game flow. Make sure nobody leaves the table or take turns that are too long.. 1 minute decide on n action is usually too much, and it measn that the players is not focusing in the game.
- Always keep in mind that the game is about VPs, not killing your opponent... Too much warmongering without VPs attached just slows down the game, and usually does not gets you forward in the VP track. Use military as a threat, and engage battles that will not last longer than a round to be finished.
- Try to play with a experienced group that has full knowledge of the rules (this make a huge difference)
- Use one of the pre-created maps from the FFG site. (It will save about 1 h alone).
- If using large board to player rate, consider the fast start rules to speed up interactions (sometimes we have very tight maps that the players are too close to each other to make this an option).

well.. I think I've posted too much so far...

Best Regards,

Thread: Searching Players - Montreal

olivier514 — 2008-05-13T11:15:26+00:00

Hey

Everyone in the montreal region playing that game and searching for players like me, please send me a email at olivier.monette@gmail.com. Im searching for a group of players or single people that wanna meet once per month or 2 months to play that epic and long long game. Specially on week-end

Im 26, easy going and dedicated player, im looking forward for the same kind of peoples with same passion and patience.

Regards

Olivier

PS: got the game... :ninja:

Thread: Re: What part makes this game so slow?

d3m853 — 2008-05-12T08:05:03+00:00

Jarvis wrote:
How many players and how much experience do each of you have? In my experience, the game really does take an hour a person. I find the downtime is people who are unfamiliar with the cards and need to reread everything. As they play, they get a lot faster however.

Quoted for truth. I think my group has made it through 45 min/player games once or twice before, but that's pretty fast.

Sarimrune wrote:
- Building: Players can build at multiple points during their turns. I know a lot of players just say: And I'm gonna build go on to your next player, but sometimes you need to see what they are plunking down. Furthermore, building is not very intuitive. You need the money and you have Fleet limitations and build limitations that you have to consider.

Sometimes you do need to see what the other player is building before taking your turn, but I find that often it's possible to proceed to the next player. However, since you're right that there are a lot of rules about building, we try to have one other player watch the building player just to make sure his build is legal and he doesn't forget any rules. (Nobody tries to cheat, but it's easy to inadvertently overlook stuff like build limits.)

Sarimrune wrote:
- Fighting: Having a battle seems to slow the game down. The whole game seems to have a smooth (if not slow) flow to it but combat requires the players to move units, roll a lot of dice and figure out what's what. I dunno how to change this part.

...

Part of the problem with fighting is that your units base stats radical change from Technology. You have to look around and figure out and some players are just slower than others.

We generally make players responsible for keeping a reference of their current "adjusted" combat values after tech, abilities, etc. That way we can just look up the numbers instead of having to calculate each time. It saves a few seconds here and there that add up.

I think the one thing that's sped up our games most was introducing a turn timer. I have an iMac that I can move around close to the table, so I wrote a little Javascript app to track each player's time in a countdown fashion, and everyone got an hour to spend throughout the entire game in whatever manner they pleased. (The timer was paused during political phase and combat.) We had penalties in place for going over your limit--something like 1 CC per 5 minutes over. This sped up the game quite a bit, but frankly, it also sucked all the fun out of it. There are too many rules and too much to consider already in the game, and adding time pressure made it much less fun. So we got rid of the penalties, but kept the timer so that we'd know who was being a real slowpoke. Just having the countdown there, even without penalties, really helps keep players mindful of their turns and has sped up our games quite a bit.

The script also does two other things that are helpful in speeding things up: it tracks player order (you input strategy card numbers each round, and it also keeps track of seating order for executing secondary strategies), and can also display the strategy card text (primary and secondary) on screen so that players don't have to constantly ask to see the card (or have it read aloud). Just having something to tell you whose turn it is next saves a surprising amount of time.

Some sort of combat values reference built into this (that considered player tech and abilities and whatnot) would be the bomb.

(I ought to get around to posting my script here sometime I suppose...but I keep hoping to get time to clean it up first, since it's pretty messy at the moment. Anyone's welcome to GM me for it if they aren't afraid to edit a little Javascript and CSS for configuration.)

I would imagine you could figure out "analog" ways of doing these things in the absence of a computer near the table (maybe just writing down player order each turn to save you from looking around the table at strategy cards). The turn timer sped us up, and I don't know how much actual time the "whose turn is it?" functionality saves, but it sure feels convenient. Little things add up over the course of a 4- or 5-hour game.

Matt

Thread: Re: Twilight Imperium - Possible Future Newbies

Tomba — 2008-05-12T05:29:06+00:00

RobTys wrote:
Okay, I've been thinking about getting this game because my family likes to play games, and they don't mind playing long games (12+ hours). Couple of simple questions:

1. Anyone feel like there's a minimum age for play? I've got a 9 year old daughter that loves games and is capable of playing games such as Runebound.

2. What the heck is "turtling"? Never heard that term until I was reading review on this game.

Thanks!

For what it's worth, I play this game with my teenage bible study group on social days, and I would say intelligent 14 years olds and upwards can understand it and play in a competitive way. One of the boys once brought along their 11 year old brother and it kinda ruined the game as he just allied with his (older) brother and did things 'just for fun'. Whilst this should be OK, it ruins parts of the game which rely on people optimizing things for themselves; in particular as we were playing without the expansion he didn't take the ISC when he could/should have and gifted it to the eventual winner, which distorts the strategy considerably. This may be less of an issue with the expansion, but I have only played 3 games with it so far, so can't really comment. Unless very well versed in strategy and diplomacy I would suggest 9 is too young.

For a similar(ish) theme suitable for younger players try Starfarers of Catan. I have played this successfully with groups as young as 10, though there's no military conflict and the game is over in 1.5-2.5 hours (but the bits are very very nice!:cool:

If combat is important, consider Risk 2210, which can be a longer game with less luck than other versions of risk (personal gut feeling,little evidence to back this up).

If you do go for TI, it's an excellent game, but be prepared to play at least one intro game (there's an excellent online step-by-step example game somewhere, I'm pretty sure there's a link from this site).

Turtling has been addressed by other posters. I'll only add that it is much less of a problem with the expansion due to the way the new strategy cards are used.

Hope this helps.

Tomba

Thread: Re: Retreat/Withdrawal Question

sigmazero13 — 2008-05-12T02:53:31+00:00

morningstar wrote:
malloc wrote:
This Fixes the problem of Defenders getting shafted for someone attacking them on their 1st Action.

Also the problem of having to channel your attacks if you think you might want to retreat. "Why are you activating that empty system and not moving anything in?" "Oh ... no reason."
The tactical retreat rule is only valid for the defender, not the attacker. The attacker still has to move back to a previously activated system. The rule was added simply so that a defender isn't shafted by not having an activation before the attacker gets to move.

Thread: Re: Would this make a good 6 player game?

isaacc — 2008-05-12T02:09:48+00:00

I'm seeing that experienced players are saying that the design of TI3 is specific and deliberate. That, at the end of the day, a double map does break the game for 6 players and perhaps even for 12 players.

Thanks again for all the input.

Thread: Re: Would this make a good 6 player game?

mrbistro — 2008-05-12T01:50:54+00:00

I don't think the mega map would work with a regular-sized group as some players would have objectives that allowed them to hang back in their own space and rack up victory points, while those who required conflict would have a much harder time.

Thread: Re: Retreat/Withdrawal Question

morningstar — 2008-05-12T06:05:03+00:00

malloc wrote:
This Fixes the problem of Defenders getting shafted for someone attacking them on their 1st Action.

Also the problem of having to channel your attacks if you think you might want to retreat. "Why are you activating that empty system and not moving anything in?" "Oh ... no reason."

Thread: Re: Retreat/Withdrawal Question

malloc — 2008-05-12T02:51:02+00:00

There are 2 types of retreat.

The Original rules say this:
• When executing a withdrawal or retreat, a player
must withdraw his entire fleet to an adjacent system
that has previously been activated by the withdrawing/
retreating player. If a player has no previously
activated systems adjacent to the contested system,
he may not withdraw or retreat.

So to answer the question asked, you need a CC in the system you are headed to.

The Shattered Empires Expansion Rules added this:

Tactical Retreat:

With this option, add the following rule regarding
retreats:

“When announcing a retreat, the defender may use a
Command Counter from his Strategy Allocation area
to activate an adjacent, unactivated system that he
controls (or that is empty). At the end of the combat
round, he must retreat to this system. Players may also
still attempt normal retreats. ”

This Fixes the problem of Defenders getting shafted for someone attacking them on their 1st Action.

If you are not using Shattered Empires then you should run out and buy it now as it makes the game a heck of a lot better.

-M

Thread: Re: Retreat/Withdrawal Question

morningstar — 2008-05-12T01:42:44+00:00

My interpretation has always been that it must contain a command counter.

Thread: Retreat/Withdrawal Question

bambino64 — 2008-05-12T01:18:03+00:00

According to the rules, a fleet has to retreat to a "previously activated system." Does "previous" refer only to the current round (i.e, the system has a command counter) or the whole game?

Thanks!

Thread: Re: What part makes this game so slow?

perfalbion — 2008-05-11T04:20:06+00:00

Sarimrune wrote:
Heya all,

I've never had a session that doesn't end in under 8 hours. I dunno why it takes so long. I would like to try to figure out what part of the game takes so long.

Seriously, the answer is "the players." If your players are quick to make decisions and act, the game will be reasonable. If they hem and haw and overthink, it's going to be a long session. Ditto if the players aren't experienced with the game and aren't willing to get something wrong (and lose) or make a bad choice (and lose).

The same can be said for lots of large games - AGoT, Civilization/Advance Civ, etc. Analyze decisions too much, and a 4 hour game rapidly hits 6-8.

Thread: Re: What part makes this game so slow?

Harald — 2008-05-11T03:31:29+00:00

There are mamy, many times in the game where one player is finished with his impulse and the next one is to start his. Unfortunately, the next one is (usually) not the next around the table. This creates many opportunities for the game to stop for some time untill the next player discovers that it is his turn to do something. Just a short stop at each of these moments really add a lot of time to the game.

Thread: Re: What part makes this game so slow?

Jarvis — 2008-05-11T02:50:33+00:00

Sarimrune wrote:
Heya all,

I've never had a session that doesn't end in under 8 hours. I dunno why it takes so long. I would like to try to figure out what part of the game takes so long.

How many players and how much experience do each of you have? In my experience, the game really does take an hour a person. I find the downtime is people who are unfamiliar with the cards and need to reread everything. As they play, they get a lot faster however.

My thoughts so far:
- Building: Players can build at multiple points during their turns. I know a lot of players just say: And I'm gonna build go on to your next player, but sometimes you need to see what they are plunking down. Furthermore, building is not very intuitive. You need the money and you have Fleet limitations and build limitations that you have to consider.
What if there was one extra phase where you build between turns. So no more building during each action. Just one build phase. I know it would affect some of the strategy cards, but I don't know by how much.

But doesn't that directly effect where people will move too? for example if my fleet is knocking on your outpost's doorstep but you have the first action. Wouldn't you want to build at your outpost to defend it rather than wait until after the turn is over to build when it is too late.

- Fighting: Having a battle seems to slow the game down. The whole game seems to have a smooth (if not slow) flow to it but combat requires the players to move units, roll a lot of dice and figure out what's what. I dunno how to change this part.
Fighting is also an all or nothing affair. I kinda like what Game of Thrones did in which armies survive and retreat. I know it's within the rules to flee, so I dunno what to change if anything.

I don't know what you are asking for here. As you said, there are fleeing rules built into TI3. It's hardly all or nothing unless both players want that. Also, GoT can be very all or nothing if the winning player is using the appropriate battle cards.

Also, when you battle, what are the other players doing? In my games, everyone gets involved because they want to see what is happening. Some people will keep track of casualties, others saying what numbers are needed to roll to hit.

Part of the problem with fighting is that your units base stats radical change from Technology. You have to look around and figure out and some players are just slower than others. I guess maybe a cheat sheet could be made with every possibility included? Then you just circle or highlight the spot on the sheet which applies to you? I dunno.

Since there are reference cards to everything here, I'm surprised this hasn't been made. At least for the ones that apply to combat anyways.

Thread: What part makes this game so slow?

Sarimrune — 2008-05-11T04:44:00+00:00

Heya all,

I've never had a session that doesn't end in under 8 hours. I dunno why it takes so long. I would like to try to figure out what part of the game takes so long.

My thoughts so far:
- Building: Players can build at multiple points during their turns. I know a lot of players just say: And I'm gonna build go on to your next player, but sometimes you need to see what they are plunking down. Furthermore, building is not very intuitive. You need the money and you have Fleet limitations and build limitations that you have to consider.
What if there was one extra phase where you build between turns. So no more building during each action. Just one build phase. I know it would affect some of the strategy cards, but I don't know by how much.

- Fighting: Having a battle seems to slow the game down. The whole game seems to have a smooth (if not slow) flow to it but combat requires the players to move units, roll a lot of dice and figure out what's what. I dunno how to change this part.
Fighting is also an all or nothing affair. I kinda like what Game of Thrones did in which armies survive and retreat. I know it's within the rules to flee, so I dunno what to change if anything.
Part of the problem with fighting is that your units base stats radical change from Technology. You have to look around and figure out and some players are just slower than others. I guess maybe a cheat sheet could be made with every possibility included? Then you just circle or highlight the spot on the sheet which applies to you? I dunno.

Anyway, anybody agree or disagree or see other areas where things are slow.

Thread: Re: Twilight Imperium- What happens when someone leaves early?

Chaz Donnell — 2008-05-09T03:00:47+00:00

This is about the same thing we do if someone has to leave early (which happens fairly often when we play with ten players or use our exploration variant). It generally works well enough although there is the one pitfall the the neighboring players no longer have 'two fronts' to worry about (so to speak).

Thread: Re: Twilight Imperium- What happens when someone leaves early?

bleached_lizard — 2008-05-09T02:53:40+00:00

One point of note: players do not usually "die" in TI. You would have to play spectacularly badly to be completely wiped off the board.

Thread: Re: Twilight Imperium- What happens when someone leaves early?

Aarontu — 2008-05-09T02:43:15+00:00

Once this happened to us, and we made all that person's stuff neutral and it sat there the rest of the game. We added a ground force to every planet he controlled, too. Someone else rolled the dice for that person's stuff if it was attacked. One or two of that player's planets were later conquered, but most people ignored it; they would rather take a defended planet from another player than from someone who is out of the game already.