Game: Carcassonne - The Count of Carcassonne

Thread: Re: Quick Look at The Count

huffa2 — 2008-08-11T07:04:38+00:00

You don't need to place meeples into the Market until late in the game
I agree that good strategy is to do this but I found that I had to commit meeples to the market when I could as the chances of finishing someone else's scoring feature became less and less likely as the game progressed.

Thread: Re: Quick Look at The Count

Megadev — 2008-08-11T04:28:49+00:00

huffa2 wrote:
I playe dthe Count twice.
Everyone (when given the opportunity) would put their meeples to benefit from farms at the end of teh game.
Why would you try to join in on claiming a road for example, when you can earn so amny more points from claiming farms at the end of the game.
It is a fine expansion but I think it is half pointless.

You don't need to place meeples into the Market until late in the game (putting them in there early in the game is just silly). It is plenty useful to use meeples in the inner city to share or steal other forms of scoring, especially large cities.

Thread: Re: Quick Look at The Count

huffa2 — 2008-08-11T02:16:42+00:00

I playe dthe Count twice.
Everyone (when given the opportunity) would put their meeples to benefit from farms at the end of teh game.
Why would you try to join in on claiming a road for example, when you can earn so amny more points from claiming farms at the end of the game.
It is a fine expansion but I think it is half pointless.

Thread: Re: Clarification on one of mjharper's FAQ

Jambo — 2008-07-30T14:30:14+00:00

dvader123 wrote:
Okay. Bear with me here. Unless I totally misunderstood this thread (which is quite possible), I don't think you can move any meeples in Carc City into any feature at the end of the game (except for meeples in markets which are placed in farms).

I read mjharper's rule book and others and don't see in it anywhere that allows you to place meeples left in Carc City into incomplete/appropriate features after the final tile (end of the game) is placed.

We were (at least I was) arguing about this, but it might be pointless if the rules don't allow you do place meeples at the end of the game (except for farms). So in other words, if your meeples are stuck in Carc City after the final tile is placed, then it's stuck there and don't contribute to scoring or majority.

That's why you at least want to get them out if you know they'll be useless.

Sorry about the annoyance, but I really need to understand this and my readings have led me to more confusion.

I totally agree with the reasoning behind this post, and incidentally have just posted something similar to this query over at Carcassonne Central. With the obvious exception of farms, the rules are explicit about the feature having to be complete in order to place a follower from the city of Carc. At the end of the game all of the non-farm features being scored are considered incomplete. This is backed up by the rules for Cathedrals and Inns as incomplete features containing these do not score any points. To that end, surely this must mean that followers in those respective quarters are unable to be placed at the end of the game scoring...

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Meeple1 — 2008-05-13T13:56:28+00:00

Start of game

Thread: Re: Does the Count's City count in scoring Farms?

Badgeroonie — 2008-05-11T06:55:27+00:00

I'd say the Count counts.

Thread: Re: Does the Count's City count in scoring Farms?

Rygel — 2008-05-08T16:45:37+00:00

We have always played that it counts.

Thread: Re: Does the Count's City count in scoring Farms?

ColtsFan76 — 2008-05-07T20:02:41+00:00

ras2124 wrote:
Where is this FAQ of which you speak?
It is the translated answers from Hans im Gluck that Matt Harper maintains in his annotated rules series:

http://files.boardgamegeek.com/geekfile_view.php?fileid=2752...

Thread: Re: Does the Count's City count in scoring Farms?

ras2124 — 2008-05-07T19:47:21+00:00

Where is this FAQ of which you speak?

Thread: Re: Does the Count's City count in scoring Farms?

ColtsFan76 — 2008-05-07T19:20:17+00:00

Sorry. I stand corrected. I went to look it up to back up my point and see the FAQ says it does indeed count.

Thread: Re: Does the Count's City count in scoring Farms?

ChipChuck — 2008-05-07T19:19:02+00:00

ahh okay thanks.

Thread: Re: Does the Count's City count in scoring Farms?

ColtsFan76 — 2008-05-07T19:17:35+00:00

~~No. It is not a scoring feature.~~

Thread: Does the Count's City count in scoring Farms?

ChipChuck — 2008-05-07T18:50:45+00:00

Maybe I tottally missed it in the "huge" rule sheet (joke).

But does the city that the count moves around in count as a completed city when farms are scored?

Thanks all,

Chip

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Mariani29 — 2008-04-09T19:25:38+00:00

Componentele extensiei "Contele din Carcassonne" fig.1

Thread: Quick Look at The Count

Xianpiper — 2007-11-14T15:17:33+00:00

The Count is the 2nd Small Box expansion in the Carcassone series and consists of a Count Meeple and 12 new city tiles called the Inner City)placed the same way each time.

It can be used with all the expansions I have tried it with so far.

The idea is that when a player chooses to end his opponents current build scoring points for that opponent but none for him/herself that player may place a meeple into the inner city into one of four areas including the Castle, Market, Cathedral, and Blacksmith and move the Count to another section of the city if they choose. The four sections of the Inner City corespond with scoring forms in Carcassone.
Castle = City
Market = Farm
Cathedral = Cloister
Blacksmith = Road

When any player then later completes a build of the type that the players meeple was placed on in the Inner city that player may choose to move that meeple onto the completed build to count towards scoring.

The Count meeple complicates things by being placed on one of the four sections of the inner city and blocking the ability of all meeples placed on that section to be used.

Example:
Player 1 Ends a Road that Player 2 has a meeple on scoring 2 points for Player 2, but none for Player 1. Player 1 may now take one of his unused meeples and place it in the inner city on any section (Castle for this example). Player 1 moves the Count meeple onto the Blacksmith section blocking any meeples played there from being used. Later in the game Player 2 completes a 32 point city in which he has one meeple and player 1 has none. Player one takes his meeple from the Castle in the Inner City and uses it towards that city and thus shares the 32 points with Player 2.

Experience with it:
With inexperienced players the Count is frequently not used well or at all. Either players commit too many meeples to the inner city and don't have enough to play on the regular field, or they ignore it completely thinking that scoring any points for their opponent(s) is always a bad idea.
With 2 player games with no other expansions it can be quite difficult to do anything other than use the Inner City to share points of scoring structures you couldn't build into.
With >2 players it begins to really shine by being useful in commiting players to use up meeples in the Inner City to defend against over taking of their large builds while at the same time scoring you points in order to do so.

I find it to be a nice addition for the game when a change of pace is needed!

Since it's a mini expansion I give it a 4/5.

Thread: Re: carcassonne

mjharper — 2007-10-27T21:12:34+00:00

jmbl wrote:
Q1
using the extension with city of Carcassonne and the count:
player x has a piece on a nearly completed town
player y has a piece in the castle in Carcassonne
player y completes the above town giving x a point and not scoring himself - thus enabling him to put a piece in Carcassonne
WHAT ARE THE RULES?
a/ player y may place the piece he has in the castle on player x's town thus cancelling the score for the town and only then place a piece in the castle
or
b/ player y may put a second piece in the castle and with the two pieces claim the score for player x's town
?
See here - to be able to deploy a follower to Carcassonne you cannot be involved with the scoring at any stage. So if you move a follower from Carcassonne into a city which is being scored, you are part of the scoring and cannot move another follower into Carcassonne - regardless of whether you originally had a follower in the city or not.

So the actual options are:
c/ player y moves the follower from Carcassonne into the city and shares the majority (scores equal points)
or
d/ player y moves another follower into Carcassonne city (any quarter).

You may not do both (in one turn and in respect of one feature, at least)

jmbl wrote:
Q2
at end of game do the pieces in Carcassonne score only on completed areas or also on incomplete ones?
HELP!
See here - they can also be moved to incomplete ones.

Thread: carcassonne

jmbl — 2007-10-26T22:11:34+00:00

Carcassonne
Carcassonne - The Count of Carcassonne
Q1
using the extension with city of Carcassonne and the count:
player x has a piece on a nearly completed town
player y has a piece in the castle in Carcassonne
player y completes the above town giving x a point and not scoring himself - thus enabling him to put a piece in Carcassonne
WHAT ARE THE RULES?
a/ player y may place the piece he has in the castle on player x's town thus cancelling the score for the town and only then place a piece in the castle
or
b/ player y may put a second piece in the castle and with the two pieces claim the score for player x's town
?
Q2
at end of game do the pieces in Carcassonne score only on completed areas or also on incomplete ones?
HELP!

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crich35 — 2007-10-25T20:55:55+00:00

A better scan of game pieces

Thread: Re: Rules questions

campbead — 2007-10-24T03:51:15+00:00

I'm not sure about your 1st questions, but as for the 2nd the rules state you can place a follow on the tile you just placed in addition to the one placed in Carcassonne.

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Phrim — 2007-10-07T00:02:01+00:00

12 Tiles, Count Meeple, Rules, Box

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Aetesaki — 2007-09-14T16:49:22+00:00

Scan of the tilebacks

Thread: Rules questions

sapient — 2007-09-09T23:15:51+00:00

1. If the count of Carcassonne is combined with traders and builders, if you complete a city that gives you no points but awards some trade goods tokens, are you still eligible to deploy a follower to Carcassonne?

2. When you have the option to deploy a follower to Carcassonne, can you also deploy a follower to the tile you just played, or do you choose to deploy either on the tile or in Carcassonne?

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Urtur — 2007-08-28T08:32:24+00:00

Playing "The Count on the Tower" variant.

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aPilgrim — 2007-08-22T07:36:08+00:00

Count in the Castle

Thread: Re: First Play

devonmallory — 2007-07-19T15:54:48+00:00

Mystery solved!
It's weird that you'd have to check an faq to clarify such simple rules, but there you go...naming a part of the game the same as the name of the game may breed confusion.
There's hope that the second play will go far better.

Thread: Re: First Play

Patilian — 2007-07-19T15:41:08+00:00

I think the confusion may be coming from the wording of the rules. When the two sections of the rules I quoted refer to Carcassonne, they mean Carcassonne city. So you can only move the count when you place a follower in Carcassonne CITY. And you can only put a follower in Carcassonne city when you score a feature for another player somewhere off in the countryside.

Just placing the normal followers--knights, robbers, monks--is not referenced as placing a follower in Carcassonne--it's just called placing a follower. I guess all of the other cities you build are just neighbors of Carcassonne. Maybe like St. Paul and Minneapolis.

Thread: Re: First Play

the1jugg — 2007-07-19T14:13:35+00:00

As I understand it:

When you complete a feature that causes your opponent to score points, you may place a meeple in Carcassonne. IF you place a meeple in Carcassonne, you can move the Count.

Here is a great link to an FAQ that could help:
http://www.modernjive.com/carcassonne/carcassonnefaq.htm#_Th...

Thread: Re: First Play

devonmallory — 2007-07-19T13:00:33+00:00

I think I wasn't clear on what was actually happening, but now I'm extra-confused. The two rules you listed seem to contradict each other. I was sure that you can move the count any time you place a follower, whether or not it's scoring something (first rule). And that you can only place a follower in Carcassonne city when you score something for your opponent, but not yourself (second rule). Doesn't that mean that the Count moves independently of both scoring areas AND moving followers to Carcassonne city?

Thread: Re: First Play

Patilian — 2007-07-19T05:54:48+00:00

You had one rule wrong for sure, and probably one other.

What she did was just continuously move the count whenever she placed a follower to a place that would prevent my plans from working, knowing she would never place any of her own followers in the city, so it would have no effect on her.

First, you only get to move the count when you put a meeple in Carcassonne. Quoting the rules: "When a player places a follower in Carcassonne, he may move the count to any of the four quarters in Carcassonne."

Second, you only get the option to place a meeple in Carcassonne and move the count when you finish some feature and score points for the other player and not yourself. Rules quote: "When a player places a tile that causes at least one of his opponents to score at least 1 point while the placing player scores nothing, the placing player, at the end of his turn, may place one follower from his supply on a city quarter of his choice." Maybe your wife was doing that, but the quote above sounds like she was moving the count every time she placed a meeple, even on a newly claimed, incomplete feature.

So I think you will have a lot more fun playing correctly. The rules force you to take the count into consideration. If your wife never placed a follower in Carcassonne, you should have been able to put the count where you wanted him for the entire game. She could ignore the count and score a few more points by being more efficient than you, i.e. always adding to her roads/cities, etc. and not wasting turns scoring points for you...BUT you should be able to more than make up for that as you swoop in and share her points on key features.

Thread: First Play

devonmallory — 2007-07-19T00:19:33+00:00

I just tried the Count for the first time (two player), and noticed something interesting. I was willing to try to use the Count's city to my advantage, constantly scheming for ways to overtake the plans of my wife. However, she didn't use it at all. What she did was just continuously move the count whenever she placed a follower to a place that would prevent my plans from working, knowing she would never place any of her own followers in the city, so it would have no effect on her. She concentrated on scoring small roads, cities, and some cloisters. So I got stuck with followers in the city, usually trapped by the count when it was time, and had too few followers available to actually play effectively elsewhere. My wife always had free followers to use, and won by something like 65 points, which is a margin I hadn't seen in regular play or with the traders and builders expansion.

If we both tried to strategically use the city, I think it would have been more interesting, as there would be tension with the count and deployed followers among both of us. As it was, it was almost like we were playing two separate games.

So, a suggestion from this session: agree in advance that all players will actually try to use the city as part of their activities, or don't bother using it!

But I don't want to be negative here, I can see how it would be great. Did anyone else have an experience like this one, or can see a better way of making sure it works appropriately?

Thread: Re: Placing meeples into the city question

ColtsFan76 — 2007-06-05T03:45:31+00:00

It is an actual score. Adding to a road or city is not considered a score unless it actually completes that feature.

Thread: Placing meeples into the city question

Kerbster76 — 2007-06-05T01:10:04+00:00

In the Carcassonne Count expansion you get to put a meeple in the city if you score at least one point for an opponent without scoring any for yourself. Does it need to complete a feature for them (ie their actual score goes up) or just add to one of their features (ie make a road one bit longer or a city or bit larger)?

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Urtur — 2007-05-06T20:40:00+00:00

The expansion box is really tiny...

Thread: Re: The Count rules question

ColtsFan76 — 2007-05-03T18:22:46+00:00

Don't get me wrong. I love Cathars and think it is a nifty little expansion. (And I am saddened GQ isn't around to expose more people on this side of the pond to it. The cost per tile just makes it unattractive.) I love the ability to screw an opponent! Cutting their points is great and the possibility for no points is even better!

All I am saying is the specific ability to escape is a little pointless. It serves some purpose, no doubt, but I think it is better to take other avenues and gain some points. If the Cathar had more teeth to it (and i don't think that it needs it, just saying "if") and it prevented tiles being added to a city, thus ensuring you couldn't get your meeple out through completion, then the escape mechanism would be much much more valuable.

Thread: Re: The Count rules question

dvader123 — 2007-05-03T18:04:03+00:00

I agree with you that the escape route is pointless. At least you can score something. I see that the only reason to use it is if you want to get a meeple out of a city that you know won't be completed and if you are running of them in your supply. Of course, if that besieged city never gets completed then you don't earn the valuable farm points (if you also end up winning that farm).

But I still find value in putting the Cathar tile on an opponent's mega-city. The reason is from personal experience. I was playing a game where my opponent scored a 60-point city and in the end, I ended up losing by 28 points (that's a lot). However, if we were playing with the Cathars expansion and I besieged that city then that game would have been totally different. He would have still scored 30 points which is a lot, but I might have one by 2 points.

Thread: Re: Clarification on one of mjharper's FAQ

dvader123 — 2007-05-03T17:54:10+00:00

Okay. Bear with me here. Unless I totally misunderstood this thread (which is quite possible), I don't think you can move any meeples in Carc City into any feature at the end of the game (except for meeples in markets which are placed in farms).

I read mjharper's rule book and others and don't see in it anywhere that allows you to place meeples left in Carc City into incomplete/appropriate features after the final tile (end of the game) is placed.

We were (at least I was) arguing about this, but it might be pointless if the rules don't allow you do place meeples at the end of the game (except for farms). So in other words, if your meeples are stuck in Carc City after the final tile is placed, then it's stuck there and don't contribute to scoring or majority.

That's why you at least want to get them out if you know they'll be useless.

Sorry about the annoyance, but I really need to understand this and my readings have led me to more confusion.

Thread: Re: The Count rules question

ColtsFan76 — 2007-05-03T17:54:08+00:00

dvader123 wrote:
Just to make sure, I think in order to escape a besieged city, your cathar tile has to be adjacent to a cloister. It doesn't matter if the besieged city is adjacent to it.

I'm getting this from mjharper's rulebook. The tile must be adjacent to it.
You are correct. I was a little loose in my wording. A cloister must be placed in one of the 8 spaces that surround a Cathat tile in order for a knight to escape. And that is my point, in order for a Cathar tile to be placed, the city has to be there, which means at least 1 of those spaces is already taken and sometimes more. So unless you pull the right clositer right away, it is usually hard to get the cloister next to the Cathar tile.

I have mentioned this before, I find the "escape" route of the Cathar expansion to be somewhat pointless. To me, it is worth it to go ahead and close your city and get some points out of it. I just find it is rather impractical to put a cloister next to the Cathar tile just to get a meeple out. The more useful strategy is to use a Cathar on your own tile and a cloister if you find you can't close a city and have some of your meeples tied up in it. But with the Princess, Dragon, and Towewr, there are othere ways to accomplish this.

Thread: Re: The Count rules question

dvader123 — 2007-05-03T17:25:29+00:00

Just to make sure, I think in order to escape a besieged city, your cathar tile has to be adjacent to a cloister. It doesn't matter if the besieged city is adjacent to it.

I'm getting this from mjharper's rulebook. The tile must be adjacent to it.

Thread: Re: The Count rules question

ColtsFan76 — 2007-05-03T16:41:10+00:00

Yes, option 1 is the more reassonable answer. It just seems to be in direct conflict with HiG FAQ answer. But Matt stated in another thread that he will ask about when a knight escapes (again!). it seems they didn't quite grasp the original question.

I would think that if you have meeples in multiple beseiged cities, that each city would allow 1 meeple to escape. The limit comes from that tile - or more appropriately - from the cloister next to that city. Now the question would be, if 1 cloister is adjacent to two seperate beseiged city tiles, can only 1 meeple escape? I would say yes, the number of meeples escaping would be limited 1 per city and then 1 per cloister.

However, we need to put this one in perspective. There are only 4 total Cathar tiles. The chances of having multiple beseiged cities that also happen to have adjacent cloisters and then one person had multiple meeples in those cities all at the same time would be very rare. You would have to have near perfect set-ups and tiles draws.

Most times, when it happens, a cloister is not going to be on the board next to an empty space when someone goes to place the Cathar tile. And usually, to place a Cathar tile, most of the city is already built, so there is less opportunity to place a cloister next to it. And so, you would have to pull multiple cloisters in a row to get in a situation where you are looking to pull more than 1 meeple per city.

Thread: Re: The Count rules question

dvader123 — 2007-05-03T16:23:41+00:00

Regarding Q3, I re-read through mjharper's rulebook and according to that I would conclude that you:
- complete feature
- opponent scores for that feature and you score nothing for that or any features from the just-placed tile
- place meeple (if able) into Carc City
- remove meeple out of besieged city
- end turn

This goes with option 1 from the previous post.

The reason for this is that it is stated on page 26 of v. 3.7.1 that at the end of a player's turn, he or she may remove one knight from the [besieged] city

On page 24, it says that a player can deploy one meeple to Carc City each turn. However if a player has a double turn then you can deploy another meeple if you complete someone else's feature.

Since it's stated in many places that the double turn is still one turn, then I think it makes more sense that the meeple removal from a besieged city comes after the double turn is done -- that would be the end of the turn.

I had another question sorta related to this:

If you have meeples in multiple besieged cities then can you remove one meeple from every besieged city at the end of your turn or do you have to remove only one meeple from a single besieged city, a city of your choice?

Thread: Re: The Count rules question

dvader123 — 2007-05-03T02:24:32+00:00

Yeah, this is one where we need more clarification. I read through Aldaron's rulebook, but thought he gave two different answers.

Hopefully, HiG will come out with an official ruling.

Thread: Re: The Count rules question

ColtsFan76 — 2007-05-02T20:33:08+00:00

dvader123 wrote:
I know that when you complete an opponent's feature and you do not score on that or any feature that is associated with the placing tile, then you are allowed to place a meeple (big or small) into carcassonne city.

Now, when another feature gets completed and you and your opponent both have meeples in the castle portion of carcassonne city, then how does the redeployment work?

I see it working int two ways:

A. Start from the left of the person who placed the last tile and place as many meeples as you want, then going in clockwise order the next person places as many meeples as they want inside the city, and so forth.

B. Again start from the left of the person who placed the last tile and place one meeple. The next person places one and so forth until everyone is satisfied with the number of meeples placed.

1. Which is the way to do it or am I totally off the mark?
"A" is the correct method. You go one person at a time. When it is that persons turn, they may place none, any, or all of their meeples from that quarter to the feature being scored. This gives the person who placed the tile the last option to place meeples. he can either place enough meeples to gain the majority or he can pass knowing that he can't control the feature anyway. You only go around one time.

2. If you complete a feature and you were about to score because you had meeple majority, but your opponent places his meeples from Carc City, thus you end up losing out on the points, does that qualify you to place a meeple inside Carc City?

I would say yes, but that's a different approach to not scoring a feature.
Good question. I don't know. I would tend to agree with you. If you placed the tile that completed the feature and scored no points in the process and you were not able to score points on redeployed meeples, then yes, you could place a meeple into Carcassonne City.

3. This question is from mjharper's site:

If a player has no followers available but is eligible to move one to the city of Carcassonne (because, for example, he completed the city of another player), can he allow a knight to escape a besieged city and then move the same follower to the city? (order: escape then city, or the other way around?)
Answer: Moving players to Carcassonne takes place after scoring, so always at the very end.

I understand that you can't score here, but I always thought that you escape the besieged city at the end of the turn.

So, the order would be this:
- complete city
- opponent scores
- place meeple in Carc City (if able)
- escape besieged city
- end turn

Or is it this way:
- complete city
- opponent scores
- escape besieged city
- place meeple in Carc City (using the meeple from besieged city)
- end turn
Another one that is tough. According to Aldaron's complete rule set, your first listing is the correct one. Scoring happens first, then you place a meeple in Carc City (his step 3) and then beseiged knights can escape (step 4).

But the way the Answer is worded, it sounds like moving meeples to Carc city doesn't happen immediately after the tile is placed but before the turn is over. In which case, your second listing is correct. And since they were answering it in the context of using a previously beseiged knight being sent to Carc City, they must have had this specifically in mind when they ruled that way.

Sorry I couldn't help but I think I need to defer to Ron and Matt on this one.

Thread: Re: The Count rules question

Hustle Kong — 2007-05-02T20:31:44+00:00

see it working int two ways:

A. Start from the left of the person who placed the last tile and place as many meeples as you want, then going in clockwise order the next person places as many meeples as they want inside the city, and so forth.

B. Again start from the left of the person who placed the last tile and place one meeple. The next person places one and so forth until everyone is satisfied with the number of meeples placed.

1. Which is the way to do it or am I totally off the mark?

I would go with a, myself. The placing player being last to decide. So it adds a bit of pressure to each player as to how many they want to place.

2. If you complete a feature and you were about to score because you had meeple majority, but your opponent places his meeples from Carc City, thus you end up losing out on the points, does that qualify you to place a meeple inside Carc City?

I would say yes, but that's a different approach to not scoring a feature.

That's a toughie. I'm leaning towards no. And here's why. You're not completing an opponent's feature. You're completing your own. I would not be adverse to your way of thinking though, and upon reflection, very much see how that may be the case. My gut says no, but that's not worth the same as careful reasoning. As it says, it's done AFTER scoring.

And with your third question, I'm leaning towards placing the escaping peice in Carcassonne being a legit move.

Thread: The Count rules question

dvader123 — 2007-05-02T19:52:08+00:00

I know that when you complete an opponent's feature and you do not score on that or any feature that is associated with the placing tile, then you are allowed to place a meeple (big or small) into carcassonne city.

Now, when another feature gets completed and you and your opponent both have meeples in the castle portion of carcassonne city, then how does the redeployment work?

I see it working int two ways:

A. Start from the left of the person who placed the last tile and place as many meeples as you want, then going in clockwise order the next person places as many meeples as they want inside the city, and so forth.

B. Again start from the left of the person who placed the last tile and place one meeple. The next person places one and so forth until everyone is satisfied with the number of meeples placed.

1. Which is the way to do it or am I totally off the mark? EDIT: It seems like this question was answered in a previous thread. If I didn't read it wrong, I think the answer is that it depends on which rules you decide to use (HiG or RGG).

2. If you complete a feature and you were about to score because you had meeple majority, but your opponent places his meeples from Carc City, thus you end up losing out on the points, does that qualify you to place a meeple inside Carc City?

I would say yes, but that's a different approach to not scoring a feature.

3. This question is from mjharper's site:

If a player has no followers available but is eligible to move one to the city of Carcassonne (because, for example, he completed the city of another player), can he allow a knight to escape a besieged city and then move the same follower to the city? (order: escape then city, or the other way around?)
Answer: Moving players to Carcassonne takes place after scoring, so always at the very end.

I understand that you can't score here, but I always thought that you escape the besieged city at the end of the turn.

So, the order would be this:
- complete city
- opponent scores
- place meeple in Carc City (if able)
- escape besieged city
- end turn

Or is it this way:
- complete city
- opponent scores
- escape besieged city
- place meeple in Carc City (using the meeple from besieged city)
- end turn

Thread: Re: Clarification on one of mjharper's FAQ

mjharper — 2007-04-24T07:28:21+00:00

I agree that the summary is fine. The problem is that I interpreted 'offene' in a particular way for that FAQ only, without thinking through the false distinction that choice made. The actual distinction - occupied vs unoccupied - is covered by 'to any final-scoring feature' in the summary because that includes previously empty features.

Thread: Re: Clarification on one of mjharper's FAQ

Aldaron — 2007-04-24T02:52:20+00:00

BrianMola wrote:
I think your summary is fine. the question may be does your summary cover the end game scoring or just the scoring at the end of a turn?
The two cases are covered seperately:

Final scoring ("After completion of the turn in which the last tile is drawn, the game ends and all fields and all incomplete cloisters, roads, and cities are scored ..."):

Aldaron's Turn Summary wrote:
Before any features are scored, in player order, beginning with the player to the left of the one who placed the last tile, each player may transfer one of his followers from the appropriate quarter of Carcassonne City, unoccupied by the count, to any final-scoring feature. This continues until no further followers can be transferred in this way.
In-turn scoring ("If, through the placement of the land tile, cloisters, roads or cities are completed, they are now scored ..."):

Aldaron's Turn Summary wrote:
Before scoring, starting with the player to the current player’s left, each player has one opportunity to transfer any number of his followers from the appropriate quarter of Carcassonne City, unoccupied by the count, to the feature to be scored.

Thread: Re: Clarification on one of mjharper's FAQ

ColtsFan76 — 2007-04-24T00:33:22+00:00

Roy-

I think your summary is fine. the question may be does your summary cover the end game scoring or just the scoring at the end of a turn?

Matt/Ken/Roy-

I thought where the FAQ question and answer was what happens if a feature (or multiple features for that matter) are completed by the last tile of the game? You should treat the completed feature as normal, correct? Any meeples from the "appropriate" quarter of Carcasonne could be parachuted (I always thought of it as the Count sending out emissaries to attend the grand opening ceremonies!) into the complete feature. Then scoring for that turn would take place.

Then the end-game scoring is treated seperately, right? And the person to the left of the player who placed the last tile would start off the parachuting of meeples from a quarter of Carcassonne to the respective incomplete features of the board. Then game-end scoring takes place.

I guess I was getting off topic, and maybe Ken also, thinking that the ideal (or maybe not so ideal!) situation would occur where the last tile of the game was the perfect piece that completes a city, a road and a cloister all at the same time - all while ending the game! But after further reading of Matt's explanation on the original German, it seems they were just talking about unoccupied incomplete features vs. occupied incomplete features. They were clarifying that every incomplete feature was about to be scored, so every feature that was incomplete was eligible for the Count's emissaries.

So I think that Matt and Ken's final statement are correct and I would agree the FAQ should be revised to clarify it. However, I guess we still have an open issue to what Ken thought was the question and I followed him down that path. But that can be clarified, i think with confirming that the final scores of compelted featrures with the last tile are a distinct step from end-game scoring. Which I believe that they are two distinct steps.

Thread: Re: Clarification on one of mjharper's FAQ

Aldaron — 2007-04-23T23:41:38+00:00

I haven't been following this closely enought to understand how this differs from what I have in the summary:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/1459945#1459945

Can someone explain?

Thread: Re: Clarification on one of mjharper's FAQ

mjharper — 2007-04-23T23:18:55+00:00

That's what I reckon too. If no-one objects, I'll change 'incomplete' to 'unoccupied' next time I publish…

Thread: Re: Clarification on one of mjharper's FAQ

dvader123 — 2007-04-23T23:12:32+00:00

Thanks mjharper!

The way I read it now is that in the final scoring it is saying that I can score on appropriate features that are occupied by other meeples. I can score on these features as long as I end up with the majority.

I can also score on appropriate features that are unoccupied, but once again, I must have majority as my opponents may end up putting their meeples in there as well.

Does that about cover it?

Thread: Re: Clarification on one of mjharper's FAQ

mjharper — 2007-04-23T19:01:47+00:00

Right, I see. I'll quote the original German (note the word in red):

HiG wrote:
Frage: Wie funktioniert das Einsetzen bei der Schlusswertung?
Antwort: Prinzipiell sehr ähnlich, wie während dem Spiel. Der Auslöser der Schlusswertung ist derjenige Spieler, der das letzte Kärtchen gelegt und damit das Spiel beendet hat.
Beginnend mit dem Spieler links vom Auslöser der Wertung, setzt jeder Spieler einen seiner Gefolgsmänner aus Carcassonne in ein entsprechendes Gebiet auf dem Spielfeld. Es dürfen hier auch Figuren in offene Gebiete gessetzt werden, da diese bei Spielende auch gewertet werden. Dies wird solange reihum gemacht, bis kein Spieler mehr Figuren aus Carcassonne abziehen kann. Der Graf sperrt auch hier das Stadtviertel, auf dem er steht. Üblicherwesie wird also derjenige Spieler mit den meisten Gefolgsleuten in Carcassonne auch die letzte Figur einsetzen.
It is ambiguous, I grant you. By 'appropriate' ('entsprechendes') they mean what we have said - castle -> city, and so on. It then looks like a distinction between 'appropriate' and 'incomplete' is being made, because of the subsequent sentence which seems to contrast the one mentioning 'appropriate' features. But it isn't a contrast - or at least, not that contrast (that's my argument, anyway).

The key is to remember the other FAQ you quoted, which concerned empty features. Here's the German again:

HiG wrote:
Frage: Dürfen Gefolgsleute aus Carcassonne auch in leere Gebiete eingesetzt werden?
Antwort: Ja, auch wenn ein leeres Gebiet abgeschlossen wird dürfen Spieler, mit Gefolgsleuten im entsprechenden Viertel, diese dort einsetzen und sofort werten. In der Regel sind unbesetzte Gebiete jedoch nicht sonderlich wertvoll, so dass diese Option hauptsächlich dazu dient, eigene Figuren aus Carcassonne zurück in den Vorrat zu holen.
Back to the first FAQ. As you said, at the end of the game, only incomplete features could have followers 'parachuted' in from Carcassonne - completed cities would have already been scored. However, there will be two subsets in that group of 'incomplete' features: those which are occupied and those which are unoccupied. That's the contrast, I think - not between 'appropriate' and 'incomplete' (since followers can only be deployed to appropriate incomplete features') but between 'occupied' and 'unoccupied'. My guess is that, bearing in mind the other FAQ about empty ('unoccupied') features, HiG decided to add a clarification concerning empty features to this FAQ as well.

So: the first sentence about 'appropriate' features implicitly concerns 'occupied features' - those that we are used to scoring at the end of the game. The second sentence concerns the new possibility offered by the expansion - scoring previously unoccupied features.

The problem is that they used two different terms - 'leere', which I translated as 'empty', and 'offene', which literally means 'open', and which I translated as 'incomplete'. I'm sure you can see the assumption I was making. I'm now inclined to think that 'leere' and 'offene' are actually synonyms, both referring to unoccupied features - 'open' in the sense of available to the first player who deploys a meeple rather than the sense of not yet finished.

What do you think? I agree that there's a consistency issue here, but would everybody be happy if I changed 'incomplete' to 'unoccupied' and put a link to this thread on the page to explain the reasoning?

Thread: Re: Clarification on one of mjharper's FAQ

dvader123 — 2007-04-23T16:28:19+00:00

Here's the original q&a again:

Question: How does follower placement during the final scoring work?
Answer: In principle very similarly to the way it works during the game. The 'trigger' for the final scoring is the player who placed
the last tile and so ended the game. Beginning with the player on the left of the 'trigger' player, each player redeploys one of his or
her followers from the city of Carcassonne to an appropriate road, city, cloister or farm. Followers can also be redeployed to
incomplete roads, cities, cloisters or farms, since these will also be scored at the end of the game. This process continues until no
player can redeploy any more players from Carcassonne. The count still blocks the city quarter in which he is resident. Normally
the player with the most followers in Carcassonne will be the one to redeploy the last figure.

I think I was getting confused on the question rather than the answer. Let me explain. The question asked how "final" scoring worked. When I read that, I thought it meant scoring at the end of the game after the last tile was drawn and placed and not the beginning.

Since you can't score on completed features at the end of the game, I am wondering what you meant by appropriate. I understand what you guys were saying (market -> farms, etc.), but mjharper makes a distinction between appropriate features and incomplete features.

In the end, I'm wondering if you can give me an example of when someone would score on an "appropriate" feature at the end of the game after the last tile is placed. I understand how you can do it during the game since people are completing features all the time and you're trying to jump in, but during final scoring?

Thread: Re: Clarification on one of mjharper's FAQ

mjharper — 2007-04-23T13:36:44+00:00

No problem! I've included the changes I suggested to the site and to the AR, and added credit for pointing the ambiguities out; they'll be up when I republish next.

Thread: Re: Clarification on one of mjharper's FAQ

ColtsFan76 — 2007-04-23T13:27:14+00:00

Matt-

Thanks for jumping in on the conversation and giving us your insight on the translation!!! Yes, I must say that "In general" moves it to a more "common sense" type explanation. While your defintion for "as a rule" is perfectly valid and wouldn't be questioned in casual conversation, when you mix that phrase with gaming, lawyers can come out of the woodwork!

As far as "appropriate" I thought it was appropriate but it can cause some confusion I guess. Maybe "respective" or "corresponding" is a better adjective. But if space isn't an issue and you want to include the bracketed info, that makes it crystal clear.

Thanks again for your work in the translations. Those of us who only had Spanish in high school aprreciate it!!! (Though if I knew the impact the Germans would have on the gamin industry, I might have taken that instead!)

Thread: Re: Clarification on one of mjharper's FAQ

Aldaron — 2007-04-23T12:50:49+00:00

For what it's worth, my summary has:

Aldaron's Turn Summary wrote:
Before any features are scored, in player order, beginning with the player to the left of the one who placed the last tile, each player may transfer one of his followers from the appropriate quarter of Carcassonne City, unoccupied by the count, to any final-scoring feature. This continues until no further followers can be transferred in this way.

EDIT: Replaced with relevant part of rules summary.

Thread: Re: Clarification on one of mjharper's FAQ

mjharper — 2007-04-23T07:57:40+00:00

BrianMola wrote:
supper, seduction, and snatching
I like that!

BrianMola wrote:
So why did they choose to say "by rule unoocupied..."? I think it was a poor translation (with absolutely no offense to mharper!!!) or a poor selection of words in the original language. There is no "rule" that says unoccupied features are less valuable. It would have been better to say "by rule of thumb" or "typically" those features are less valuable. But the wording they chose makes it seems like those features are purposely worthless or something. You aren't missing something or misunderstanding it. Someone just threw in an opinion that really has little impact on the ruling.
By "As a rule" I meant 'In general' - here's the definition from my Oxford Dictionary: "as a rule: usually, but not always." It's also closer to the German ("In der Regel", as Werbaer pointed out). But if it would help to clarify things, I'd be happy to change it to 'In general'.

Even with the 'supper, seduction, and snatching' elements, it's still fairly uncommon to get a completely empty city (for example) which is worth a lot of points, because there's usually several meeples of different players in there in the first place. Getting rid of one or two is easy enough, but five or six?

BrianMola wrote:
I think all it means by "appropriate" is that from whatever section of Carcassonne that they move, they must go to an appropriate (or corresponding) feature. So tht means castle -> cities, market -> farms, etc.
That's exactly what I meant. Again, I could adapt the translation if it would help, something like this:

the translation wrote:
each player redeploys one of his or her followers from the city of Carcassonne to an appropriate feature [meeples in castle can only be deployed to cities, and so on]

Thread: Re: Clarification on one of mjharper's FAQ

ColtsFan76 — 2007-04-22T09:40:44+00:00

dvader123 wrote:
My question is what's the difference between an appropriate feature and an incomplete feature. Did mjharper forgot to say that it's the same thing? At the end of the game, scoring is done on incomplete features only and so I don't know if "appropriate" features were. If he meant completed features then that wouldn't make sense because at the end of the game, these features were already scored.

Can someone clarify this?

Thanks in advance.
I think all it means by "appropriate" is that from whatever section of Carcassonne that they move, they must go to an appropriate (or corresponding) feature. So tht means castle -> cities, market -> farms, etc.

Also, the "appropriate" feature is the one just completed - since you can't move to a previously scored feature. So say a cloister was just completed and that also ended the game. Anyone in the Cathedral quarter could move to the cloister before it is scored. Now that the game is "over," all remaining quarters, with the exception of the with the Count, could then be placed on incomplete features that will now get the game-end scoring.

Thread: Re: Clarification on one of mjharper's FAQ

Werbaer — 2007-04-22T09:21:37+00:00

BrianMola wrote:
So why did they choose to say "by rule unoocupied..."? I think it was a poor translation (with absolutely no offense to mharper!!!) or a poor selection of words in the original language.
I don't have the source of the FAQ, but judging from the translation, i'm sure it was "in der Regel" in german, which is translated "as a general rule", according to my dictionary.

Image

Krisjohn — 2007-03-28T10:30:55+00:00

The count, box and instructions. Purchased at FLGS.

Image

fehrmeister — 2007-03-05T00:56:42+00:00

The Count's City is Slightly Darker Than the Rest of the Carcassonne Cities