Game: Winner's Circle

Thread: Re: New to game - WC vs. RT?

cannoneer — 2008-09-03T21:23:37+00:00

I don't like how the horses are too big for the spaces in WC. I only played RT once but I recall the horses fit better in the spaces. This is a minor inconvenience, but it's kind of a pain in the neck to have a bunch of horses clumped up together and be knocking some over to get at others.

Thread: Re: New to game - WC vs. RT?

mateoknowles — 2008-09-03T19:58:46+00:00

I don't have the rules to WC, just RT. In the RT variant, would a horse with a 7 at the top, like War Admiral, start in the # 1 spot or in the # 7 slot?

Thread: Re: New to game - WC vs. RT?

Tubarush — 2008-09-02T03:58:42+00:00

Thanks for the reply. Any other thoughts?

Thread: Re: New to game - WC vs. RT?

Windopaene — 2008-09-01T17:36:55+00:00

Winner's Circle changed the number distributions of the numbers on the horse cards. I cannot give you specifics on the number changes. While I prefer the number distros in RT, when playing WC, I haven't really bothered to play it with the RT variant...

Thread: New to game - WC vs. RT?

Tubarush — 2008-09-01T16:31:40+00:00

Hello -

I am wondering if people generally prefer the Winner's Circle rules as printed or the Royal Turf variation listed in the rules? Is one more balanced than the other?

Also, I have gotten an impression (perhaps mistakenly) reading some other posts that if you use the Royal Turf variant, you match the Horse Head number to the Gate number. I don't read it that way in the rules. Is this from the original Royal Turf game? And if so, which do people generally prefer?

Thanks so much.

-TR

Thread: Re: A horse of a different color

mateoknowles — 2008-08-29T22:54:47+00:00

Hey! Did you end up playing with more than 6 players - and how did it work out? I have found some small plastic horses with jockeys, not the same mold as the ones included in the game, but they'll probably work ok. Look like they'd be easy to paint too. They're intended to go on top of birthday cakes. They had some at my local cake decorating store and I have seen them available on cake decorating websites too.
Just doing a ton of research before playing my first game - this one looks like lots of fun - and like you could play with more than 6 players if you had extra betting tokens and horse figurines!

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siuchak — 2008-06-20T13:02:06+00:00

A race to ....... tummy

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patchwerq — 2008-05-17T02:30:08+00:00

The white horse always loses...why?

Thread: Re: Do you start with money, and if so how much?

Sprydle — 2008-04-28T22:51:21+00:00

itchywookie wrote:
It's likely that someone who bet on the last place horse also had a bet on one of the first three horses. Thus they'll win some money, then pay the penalty for betting on the loser. If someone was so unlucky that their three bets were on the last four horses, they are scoring nothing for the round, which is bad enough--don't make them go into a negative score for their misfortune!

Yep that's what happens--the pay out for the win/place/show happens first--so if you're lucky enough to win money, but unlucky enough to ahve also bet on the loser, you lose some of your winnings. If you didn't win anything at all, you lose nothing.

Thread: Re: Royal Turf Variant

kq76 — 2008-04-11T22:34:50+00:00

Do your cards have colours on them or something because I don't see how you're matching the coloured horses according to the cards that come up. I have the 36 space version with thick horse cards that all look the same except for different names and stats.

Thread: Re: Possible WC Variant??

kq76 — 2008-04-11T22:19:24+00:00

For those who are not gamblers, what does a trifecta and a daily double mean exactly? In real life does it just mean you won three and two times that day?

Thread: Re: Two horses in last place

bnordeng — 2008-03-22T21:53:10+00:00

Yeah, that's what I realized about messing up the clever mechanic of the game. We hadn't played that way before, but it was listed as a variant in the rule book so we figured we'd do it. Oops.

Thread: Re: Two horses in last place

Great Dane — 2008-03-22T13:02:34+00:00

bnordeng wrote:
I think we may have messed up by playing that variant. We had stuck with the original rules the first few times we played. I think we'll go back to the original rules next time. Thanks for the feedback.
Not only do you avoid the problem you have been facing - but the entire mechanism is based upon the fact that no orse may share the same space, so by using such a variant have you actually skewed the carefully planned mathematical system designed by Reiner Knizia.

Thread: Re: Two horses in last place

bnordeng — 2008-03-22T03:13:41+00:00

I think we may have messed up by playing that variant. We had stuck with the original rules the first few times we played. I think we'll go back to the original rules next time. Thanks for the feedback.

Thread: Re: Two horses in last place

RPardoe — 2008-03-21T19:31:27+00:00

Was about to answer how is this possible as horses can share spaces. Then I noticed you talk about a variant.

We never play with that variant simply because blocking in horses with other horses is such a key part of the racing. The only variant we use is open bets vs. closed bets.

Thread: Re: Two horses in last place

kevinb9n — 2008-03-21T19:19:20+00:00

Never heard of that variant; what's the purpose of it? What does it "fix"?

Thread: Re: Two horses in last place

Rygel — 2008-03-21T18:42:58+00:00

We never play with that variant. No one should.

Thread: Two horses in last place

bnordeng — 2008-03-21T16:11:52+00:00

When you play by the variation where horses can share the same space, what do you do when two or more horses tie for last place? We played that all bets on both horses score minus $100 (-$100). Have others run into this situation and what do you do?

Thread: Re: Playing the Ponies

JonnieK — 2008-03-14T10:49:16+00:00

Great review that covered many aspects, very informative. *insert thumb up smiley here*

Thread: Re: Placing more than one betting chit on a single horse?

JonnieK — 2008-03-13T09:59:27+00:00

In regards to Winners Circle you may only place 1 chit per horse (therefore you will have 3 horses in total)

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matthiske — 2008-03-05T15:24:07+00:00

Painted with #'s

Thread: Re: A horse of a different color

stormseeker75 — 2008-03-04T22:23:54+00:00

Sorr it took so long for me to respond. There's nowhere I know of to buy additional ponies. You'd need to use someting else which would be very tough to do. I think if you really needed more players, Turf Master would be the way to go.

As for the odds, you have it right. The more people bet, the less money each player wins.

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kilroy_locke — 2008-03-04T01:34:43+00:00

Bringing up the rear!

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Capitaine Grappin — 2008-03-01T05:12:19+00:00

Running horse

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jsper — 2008-02-16T15:27:06+00:00

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jsper — 2008-02-16T15:20:00+00:00

Multilengual rulebook cover

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jsper — 2008-02-16T15:10:58+00:00

Side of the box

Thread: Re: A horse of a different color

Tony La Morte — 2008-02-15T17:55:17+00:00

As I have been debating over Winners Circle or Turf Master for a while I guess I have a question or two.

You mentioned possibly playing with more then 6, That would work better with our group anyway, is there any option to purchase replacement horses to expand the field?

It appears the odds are based on how much total is bet on each horse to resolve pay-out?

Hoping to get responses here as I still have some awaiting reply on Turf Master.

Thanks, Tony

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pdclose — 2008-02-02T22:50:00+00:00

Example of using store-bought stickers to number the horses.

Thread: Playing the Ponies

ccarlet1 — 2008-01-12T21:31:25+00:00

I like going to horse races. My grandfather went daily during the thoroughbred season, and taught me how to read a program and bet at he tender age of 13. He was always on the verge of "cracking the system," especially after a winter spent reading the previous season's programs. He never did, but we sure enjoyed playing the ponies.

Winner's Circle captures some of that enjoyment. You do have to consider carefully your bets, although with none of the intricacies involved in reading a pogram. The start and finish are crucial, and there is lots of excitement about where your horse is going to finish. It is a fairly simple game, but with a nice balance between furthering your own plans and sticking it to your opponents.

Bits:

The game comes with seven plastic, unpainted horses. They are quite detailed and impressive. Their colours are the colours of actual horses, but are not always closely matched to their respective paddock colours on the game board. Depending on the light, you may have trouble distinguishing who is who.

The gameboard itself is okay. The horses in the paddocks are a little fuzzy, and the infield artwork is a bit smudgey. There is also the shadow of a non-existent flag.

The money is in the form of smallish tiles, which is a lot easier to deal with than paper money. The betting chits are small squares, representing single, double and fake bets, or bluffs. The horse cards are nice thick tiles, seven of which are placed in the paddocks above the track to indicate which seven horses will be in the race. These cards are quite basic, but are easy to read, containing all the relevant information for each horse's movement.

Lastly, you get a nice big wooden die, with black icons on it of a horsehead, helmet, horseshoe, and saddle. The box is a little flimsy.

Set Up:

The track is 36 spaces long, and the horse's starting positions are spaces 30-36. Their starting positions are fixed. That is black always begins in position 30, dark brown in postion 31, etc. The horses themselves are only placeholders for the horse cards, which indicate the specific horse and these change with each race. For example, the black horse might be Man O' War in the first race, but Regret in the second. Seven horse cards are laid out in their respective paddocks for each race.

Player do not start with money, but instead are given betting chits: two singles, one double, and one 0 (a decoy bet). A special $100 token is placed at the halfway point (18th space) and the first horse to reach that space, picks up the bonus.

Then you are ready to race.

Play/Rules:

The game consists of three races, and the object of the game is win more money than your opponents.

First you place your bets on the horses you think will win. Horses move around the track based on the die roll, and that particular horse's stats.

The die consists of three horseheads, one saddle, one helmet, and one horseshoe. Thus, you have a 50% chance of rolling a horsehead, and a 16 2/3% chance of rolling one of the other icons.

The horse card's stats, however, determine how many spaces the horse actually moves, and they are different for each of the 28 horses. For example, the stats for Top Flight are:

Horsehead: 1
Helmet: 3
Saddle: 12
Horseshoe: 12

Whereas for Equipoise, the stats are:

Horsehead: 6
Helmet: 5
Saddle: 3
Horseshoe: 4

So when you roll you may want to move a horse you have bet on to get it closer to the finish line, or move an opponent's horse so that it is less likely to finish well. For example, if you rolled a horsehead, you might want to move Equipoise six, if you have a bet on him, or move Top Flight only 1 if you don't have a bet on him, and your opponent's do.

No two horses may occupy the same space, so if the field is crowded, your horse may not be able to complete its movement, or may not be able to move at all. This can be especially effective in slowing down other horses.

When a horse has moved, its respective horse card is flipped over in its paddock, so that each horse moves once per round. When every horse has moved, all the cards are flipped over and a new round begins.

Payouts are made for the first three finishers (win, place and show). The better the placement, the more money you get, but this is modified by how may people bet on the horse: the fewer the people who have bet on the horse, the more money you make.

If you bet on the last placed horse (the race is over as soon as you determine the third place horse), you must pay $100, or $200 if you made a double bet. If your horse picked up the $100 bonus, then you get an extra $100 if it placed; $200 if you made a double bet on it. The fake bets have no effect on payouts.

In the third race, all bets are doubled, so your double bet chip is worth four times the ususual payout. At the end of the third race, whoever has the most money is the winner.

Strategy/Tactics:

There is not a whole lot of strategy in this game, but there are enough tricks to make it fun and interesting.

In laying bets, the goal is cover yourself for all possibilities: making sure that if you roll a horsehead, you have a horse that will move far; if you roll the other icons, you also have a horse that will move far.

There will usually be horses to sabotage too when you get a particular roll, and ruining other people's bets is just as important as furthering your own. Depending on how many people you have playing, someone else may also want to move your horse if they have bet on it, or be forced to if yours is the only horse left to be moved. Slowing down other horses, especially a couple of turns in a row can help your cause more.

We always play with hidden bets, and do not allow players to look at their bets after they are placed. The fake bet can be a very effective trouble maker. The more people that bet on a horse, the better chance it has because more players will be co-operating to get that horse to win. Place your decoy on a popular horse might encourage others to do so, and help you to sabotage more opponents.

The decoy bet can also be a good distractor. I sometimes place it on a longshot with few other bets on it, and play that horse well in the first part of the race. The flak gets directed to that horse because every thinks it will pay well. That can help distract attention from what your real plan is.

The starting position of the horse has some influence, as the horses with the better starting position are often favoured. However, I've found that the horses at the back of the pack, can work out quite well. They are less of a target because of their poor starting position; more important, their disadvantage can be quickly erased if you can move them out of the pack at the very beginning of the race, where they can get in the way of those behind them.

Starting position does make a difference if a horse without very high numbers is in the back. Some horses are all rounders with good, but not high numbers, for all the icons. It can be hard to get this kind of horse up from the back of the pack, without a concerted effort. If they have at least one high number (7+) for an icon, they have a much better shot. I almost always place at least a single bet on one of the horses at the back of the pack.

Some horses can be considered longshots. For example, Twenty Grand moves 15 spaces on horseshoe. He can get ahead of the pack in a hurry with the right roll, but is also likely to be targeted for a low roll if he is in striking distance. Depending on the field, it may be worth making a bet on the long shot, just in case.

Of course, sometimes your best laid plans will be frustrated.

Conlusion:

In some ways the betting is similar to real betting, similar to covering the different possibilities in exactors and triactors, and straight bets, although there are not nearly as many factors to consider as the real thing.

This is a very good gateway game: easy to learn, players can socialize and trash talk as they play, and it is very fun. It can be quite intense too. The first time my cousin played, he practically rubbed all the paint off the chits while considering his bets.

So the fun in this game really isn't really in the odds on the horses themselves, but in the odds of your plans working out against everyone else's.

I give this game a 7.

Thread: First time at Winner's Circle

ltbaxter — 2008-01-08T05:16:24+00:00

A good turnout tonight at game night. While I was whipping up cappuccinos for the group we had people start games of 1960 and Notre Dame, which left six of us including a few who preferred lighter games. Hmmm, what to play? Arkham Horror, For Sale, and Winner's Circle were available and suggested. Since the game time for the latter coincided with the expected end of the Notre Dame game, we opted for Winner's Circle. A fun game by designer Reiner Knizia with a theme that makes sense, it was the first play for me and most of the other players.

There are rules and reviews elsewhere, so you probably already know this as a racing game with some interesting decisions, risk management, and trying to figure out which horse(s) to support. We played with the hidden bid variant (highly recommended). Everyone picked up the rules and basic strategy pretty quickly. Melody and myself were tied for first after the first of three races. After that, she would distance herself like 'Regret' rolling a pair of twenties, never to look back at her competition.

Speaking of 'Regret', that was the name of horse that moves 1 space three out of six times and a whopping 20 spaces, but only one time in six. Doing two of the latter, which it did, was enough to make it around the race track and win. It was fun seeing half the group trying to stick it to that poor horse, while the others were cheering it on wildly. It was also fun to try to encourage good things to happen to your '2' bet horse without giving away that it was your big bet. In the end Melody smoked us, with her new husband Justin taking second. I pulled up short, in fifth

Winner's Circle fit the bill well for a decently fun and light six-player game. I wouldn't likely pick it with less players, heavier gamers (Medici), or a shorter time span (For Sale), but it was definitely worth trying and a good one to have on hand.

Thread: Re: language independent?

TheKeck — 2008-01-02T15:37:29+00:00

I learned this game with the german version. I can confirm that it is wonderfully language independent.

Thread: Sometimes you just want to place...and be the king maker.

NigelStrong — 2007-12-28T20:36:31+00:00

Five of us played Winner's Circle last night. All but one of us has played it before. I am not sure that if because I had won the majority of the games before and I was a target or just because I picked some bad horses that I lost.

The first round I took some chances and they didn't pay off except for one. Fortunatly it was my 2x bet and it was the pace winner as well. Course it was a popular horse and I ended up with $500 after round one. One guy next to me had picked all three horses and was winning with $1250. Thats a pretty huge amount to have after the first round. The other three guys were caught somewhere in the middle.

Round two - Regret came out. I waited till the end of the betting round and put my 2x bet on it. Regret has a speed of 20 with the Cap being rolled I believe and sucky numbers for everything else. It was in 5th place. We had three chips on him. The guy who won the first round and had a huge lead didn't have a chip on it and made it his personal goal to have him not move at all. The way it came around he had the opportunity to make this horse move it's minimum each of the first 5 times around. This was pissing me off so I did what I normally do and see how I can screw him. The best chance to do this was to get one of the other guys horse across the finish line first. I got 2 of my horses to pay but no huge winners. The guy that was in 2nd place had a 2 bet on a horse by himself and I helped get that one across in 2nd place. He scored $700 and pulled into a tie for 1st place. I found myself going into round 3 in 4th place and little chance to win.

The first place guys had to place first and I was right after them. I made it a point to not bet on any of there horses. I got stuck with 2 of them but here is where the hillarious thing happen. Both of the 1st place guys put there 2x's bet on a horse together. It had a sprint of 14 but the head got it a move of 2. So the rest of us stayed well away from that horse. The comment was made "I am gonna have so much fun F***** that horse." Which led to a bunch of high fives. The third place guy placed very smartly and played on everyone one of my horse. He had enough of a lead that even if I won all three of my horses and had the double bet that he would still win. So that is where I made the decission to make him the King and just go for second place. Round 3 was a blast. The first place guys horse barely made it out of the gate before the race end. All three of my horses came in and sure enough the third place guy went to first and I tagged right along and came in 2nd. Simple hint is that it's okay to screw another horse every once in a while but when you make it your goal an entire round don't be surprised to get it back 10 fold in later rounds.

Final Scores:

J-$2650
Me - $2250
J - $1800
P - $1600
B - $900

It was great when they lost $200 each for having the last place horse. Sometimes you just get what you can get. This session was a lot of fun.

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jsper — 2007-12-26T16:16:31+00:00

Side of the box

Thread: Plod, Trot, Sprint... Cheer, Cheer Cheer!

bnordeng — 2007-12-11T14:47:06+00:00

We played Knizia's Winner's Circle for the first time last night and most of what I've read in the reviews appears to be spot on. This is a light, fun game that keeps moving and creates some interesting dilemmas.

D explained the game to us pretty quick and we were on our way. We played the version with bets face down and one bluff bet. We all learned a lot during the first race. We started to realize the benefit of betting on a horse who moves 4 or more on every roll as nobody can slow you down. We also realized the benefit of betting on a sprinter as long as others have bets on the same horse. It seemed that chances are you will need some help to get a horse like this around the track.

After one race, D was in the lead and I was in second with Ma and Mo having practically nothing. I put my double bet on the horse that finished last so I lost $200 which did NOT help. After the second race, everything evened out a bit more. I took over the lead by a bit, D remained in second and Ma and Mo caught up a bit to both D and me.

The third race was the best... with all bets paying double. Everyone was nervous about D winning so we ganged up on his gray horse (he was the only one who bet here). This horse had a 1 for Horse Head rolls and 8, 9, 10 for the other three. Early, he was able to move it big but otherwise the rest of us made sure to keep him plodding along. D was looking very frustrated while the rest of us were laughing joyfully.

At the end of the race, the white horse sprinted down the final stretch with a 15 space move to take first. I had a "1" bet on white so I was happy to see this happen. The gray horse never caught up and finished last. I figured I was in good shape to win since D would be losing at least $100 on his gray bet. As it turns out, he had bet the "0" on gray and bluffed his way through the whole race making it seem that he had a bet there. The rest of us were wasting our moves to slow down gray when really nobody had a bet on gray. OUCH! We all had quite a laugh over that maneuver and it really paid off for D.

Final Scores:
D - $2350
Me - $2300
Ma - $1400
Mo - $950

Thread: Re: Do you start with money, and if so how much?

itchywookie — 2007-12-07T10:06:35+00:00

It's likely that someone who bet on the last place horse also had a bet on one of the first three horses. Thus they'll win some money, then pay the penalty for betting on the loser. If someone was so unlucky that their three bets were on the last four horses, they are scoring nothing for the round, which is bad enough--don't make them go into a negative score for their misfortune!

Thread: Re: Do you start with money, and if so how much?

bkpihl — 2007-11-26T22:19:42+00:00

I'm sure that's the rule. Perhaps it's mechanism to keep the loser in contention.

Thread: Re: Do you start with money, and if so how much?

Big Bad Lex — 2007-11-24T00:17:13+00:00

Maybe time for a reality check. If you all start with $x then so what? Losers can pay thier debts, it makes no difference...no?

Thread: Re: Do you start with money, and if so how much?

Natus — 2007-11-23T22:57:43+00:00

Huh. OK, if you all say so. So if you lose badly in your first race, you just pay 0. I guess that makes sense: you only pay if you have money.

Thread: Re: Do you start with money, and if so how much?

bkpihl — 2007-11-23T22:00:17+00:00

The rules state that if you don't have enough to pay for betting on a last place horse, you pay as much as you are able.

Thread: Re: Do you start with money, and if so how much?

tonyfung1205 — 2007-11-23T20:49:56+00:00

Nothing to lose. This is how I played.

Thread: Re: Do you start with money, and if so how much?

Big Bad Lex — 2007-11-23T18:18:33+00:00

But don't you suffer a $ penalty if your horse comes in last? How do you cope with that if you have no starting money after race #1?

Thread: Re: Do you start with money, and if so how much?

jpat — 2007-11-23T16:15:49+00:00

Since there's nothing to buy, no need for money. It's just a VP mechanism.

Thread: Re: Do you start with money, and if so how much?

Bill Romaniecki — 2007-11-23T16:07:24+00:00

There is no starting money.

Thread: Do you start with money, and if so how much?

Natus — 2007-11-23T16:00:45+00:00

The Winner's Circle rules don't say that players get starting money, but in my first game the veteran players insisted that you needed starting money. Where are those rules, and is this a discrepancy between versions, or a house rule?

Thread: Re: language independent?

Grimwold — 2007-11-23T01:31:20+00:00

I think you might be alright with this one... the only text on the cards seems to be the horse names...

German version by Alea shown:
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Thread: Re: language independent?

davek — 2007-11-22T18:15:45+00:00

I have a German Royal Turf - aside from the rules, it's all symbology, no text at all.

Thread: language independent?

Milarky — 2007-11-22T17:14:52+00:00

hi there another query, Any text on cards Kinza tends to be quite good to buy internationaly, so is it safe to buy a german copy?

p.s even the names of cards need to be english or my group will be put off..

Thread: Re: What's up with the color of the horses?

Melsana — 2007-10-22T16:52:56+00:00

Well, what I thought was really funny was that the rules state the horse colors as: Black, White, Gray, Red, Yellow, Green, and Blue... I really want to know which horse is the blue horese.

Thread: Re: No Seabiscuit?

Melsana — 2007-10-22T16:42:14+00:00

Neithan wrote:
The Face2Face rules Intro mentions Seabiscuit... but he's not in the game! Wasn't the race between him and War Admiral one of the most famous horse races of all time? What a shame we can't recreate it.
What gives?

Yeah, I noticed that too... I also noticed that in the French and Spanish rules included that Seabiscuit is not mentioned in the rules Intro it is Sysonby (IRCC)

Thread: Re: A horse of a different color

Burgelkutt — 2007-10-17T19:54:15+00:00

This is one of the better reviews that I have read on the Geek. In fact, this review is what convinced me to buy Winner's Circle in the first place. Thanks, Steve, for helping to add an amazing game to the collection.

Thread: Re: A horse of a different color

Vaughn — 2007-10-16T16:12:34+00:00

I also love this game.

Hidden bets and Royal Turf setup is a must for me.

Thread: Re: A horse of a different color

garry_rice — 2007-10-13T13:29:07+00:00

DrCoffee wrote:
Great review! There is another variant that you neglected to mention, though, the Royal Turf variant, which I think really makes the game. Having each of the horses have a different primary "horse head" movement is a huge improvement, imho. Otherwise, a horse up front with a 6 or 7 horse head movement is pretty much a sure bet.

The people I play with must play differently...a horse up front with a 6 or 7 head movement almost never wins and often never finishes in the money.

Thread: Re: A horse of a different color

gameInformant — 2007-10-13T03:04:03+00:00

stormseeker75 wrote:

Components

The rest of the box is a grassy-green color and is sturdy enough to take some abuse.

i thought the box was a little flimsy...one of the seams on the corner came unglued in the first week of owning it.

great review though! blind bets is the only way to go!!

Thread: Re: A horse of a different color

stormseeker75 — 2007-10-12T17:07:51+00:00

Thank Dr. Coffee. I agree, hidden bets is the only way to play. I'm going to have to try your rule about not looking at your bets after they're placed.

I'm having some family over this weekend and I really want to try this out on some of the more reluctant gamers.

Thread: Re: A horse of a different color

DrCoffee — 2007-10-12T15:24:30+00:00

Great review! There is another variant that you neglected to mention, though, the Royal Turf variant, which I think really makes the game. Having each of the horses have a different primary "horse head" movement is a huge improvement, imho. Otherwise, a horse up front with a 6 or 7 horse head movement is pretty much a sure bet.

This is the gateway game I use for my entire family, especially those who are reluctant to play any sort of "game" which uses a "board." The theme is great, betting is fun (ALWAYS USE HIDDEN BETS), and it is really easy to pick up for new players within a few turns. I give it the same rating as you for one reason, the horses are too difficult to tell apart! I'd prefer pink, blue, and orange horses any day over the "realism" of tan, brown, auburn, gray, etc.

Also, we have a house rule where you can't check your bets after you have placed them. You'd be surprised how quickly you can forget which horse you bet a 2 on and which is a 0 in the midst of a race...

Thread: A horse of a different color

stormseeker75 — 2007-10-12T13:28:59+00:00

I think we all have that one game in our collection which is unlike all the others. I don't mean the odd Euro on a grognard's bookshelf. I'm talking about that one game which while inline with your general collection offers something truly unique and refreshing. Its a game that works in such a unique way that its throroughly unlike anything else you own. I have a game like that. Its called Winner's Circle.

Rules

The goal of Winner's Circle is to amass the most money after three races. Player's win (and sometimes lose) money by betting on horses. Their finish in each race and the number of bets on them will determine how much money is awarded.

Now that you know how the game works, lets look a little closer at the rules. To start the game, give each player (up to 6 according to the rules, but it could probably be expanded) their 0, 1, 1, and 2 betting chips and their matching color marker. Shuffle the Horse cards and place them on the 7 spaces along the edge of the board. Place the 7 Horse on their respective start spaces. Each horse has a different color which will correspond to one of the Horse cards placed earlier.
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Photo by Elijah

Horses have 4 different stats which show an icon and a number beside it. This tells you how far a horse can move when each icon is rolled on the die. Some horses will have mostly low numbers and one high number. Others will have fairly even number. These horses are usually referred to as sprinters and trotters respectively.

Once the field is set, its time for player's to make bets. Player's may place a 1 or 2 token on any horse they want. They may only have 1 token on any one horse. Multiple players can bet on the same horse. One important note when placing bets is to see where each horse starts. Some people feel that horses starting in the back have a distinct disadvantage so this is something to consider when placing your bets.

After all bets have been placed, the race starts. The player who placed the first bet rolls the die. According to the icon shown, that player may move any one horse the number of spaces shown on its card next to that icon. For example, if the die roll is a horseshoe, the player may move any horse a number of spaces equal to the number shown on its card next to the horseshoe icon. Each space on the track may only ever contain one horse so the decision is an important one. Once the horse has been moved, that horse's card is flipped face down. It may not move again until all the other horses have moved.

There is a bonus for the first horse to reach space 18. The Pace Bonus is $100 and is paid at the end of the race to anyone who bet on that horse.

When the first horse crosses the finish line, take it off the track and place it in the middle on the 1st Place position. Repeat for the 2nd and 3rd Place horses. When the 3rd place horse crosses the line, the race is over. Take the horse that is in last place and put it on the Last Place space.

To pay out money, look at the total number of bets on the horse that finished 1st. Its important to count bets, not tokens. A token with 2 on it is 2 bets. Look at the chart next to the 1st Place space and determine the payout. Repeat this for the 2nd and 3rd place ponies. Any players who bet on the horse that finished last have to pay the bank $100. All other bets have no consequence.

Discard the Horse Cards, and give each player their betting tokens. The game continues for 2 more races. The winner is the player with the most money at the end of the 3 races.

The rules are really quite easy to understand. Unlike most Knizia games, the rules to this one fit on two pages.

Components

The game comes in a decent sized box with a beautiful horse on the cover. The rest of the box is a grassy-green color and is sturdy enough to take some abuse.

The board is focused around the racetrack which dominates the play area. Each space is numbered which is handy in figuring out how far a horse can move. The starting spaces are color-coded to match their respective horses making setup a breeze. There is ample room along the one side for the Horse cards and for the betting tokens. I really appreciate the bet payout chart being in the middle of the board so that players don't need to constantly reference the rulebook to figure out their winnings.
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JP LaChance
The Horse cards are made of a thick cardboard, similar in thickness to Carcassonne tiles. They don't really do much and they are handled at a minimum, but I do appreciate the sturdiness. The presentation of these tiles leaves a bit to be desired because the fronts are drab green. The icons and numbers are easy to read but the colors are a bit ugly. I wish the graphic designers would have put some horse pictures on the top of the cards. They could probably be redesigned to have a nice picture right at the top with the horse's name under it and still have plenty of room for the stats. It would certainly add some personality to each horse. You might really feel like you're racing a famous horse instead of the "tan" horse or the "white" horse.

The actual horse pieces are a nice size. They are made of plastic but feel pretty sturdy. These pieces see the most action of any part of this game because they are constantly being handled and moved. The sculpts are all identical which is somewhat of a disappointment. Again, if they were even slightly different, they would have a lot more personality and flavor. I'm fairly torn on the color choice for the horses. They are done in mostly earthtones. I feel pretty certain that this was done to avoid having blue and purple horses which would certainly look odd, but sometimes its hard to tell the horses apart. A few of the colors look pretty similar and can cause some confusion. I suppose this could be remedied by a simple paint job.

The betting tokens and money are both make of a cardboard which is just slightly thinner than the Horse cards. The betting tokens are color coded so as to make it easy to see which player has bet on which horse. These tokens are fairly small and have a nice glossy coating. The money tokens are slightly bigger and have a rougher finish similar again to Carcassonne tiles.
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Photo by dipdragon

One of my favorite parts of this game is the die. I love dice and this one is no exception. This particular die is made of wood and has 6 sides: 3 horsehead, 1 horseshoe, 1 saddlebag, and 1 jockey hat. Plus the die is wood so it makes neat sounds when it rolls and feels nice in your hands. I love wood dice.

Gameplay

In Winner's circle you roll the die and move a horse. Sounds simple right? While the actual roll-and-move mechanic is the essence of the game, its a much better version that takes away a lot of the luck. When the die is rolled, you have the choice of which horse to move. You don't just have to move one you wagered on, you can move ANY horse you want. This is where the strategy of the game comes into play. The obvious choice is to move a horse you have bet on, but often this is not the best choice. Most horses have a variety of numbers next to their icons, so if you roll an icon that is bad for a horse other players have bet on, you can use that horse to minimize the amount of spaces it can move. Since only one horse can be in a space at a time, this will often result in small movements or none at all.

The additional penalty for finishing last means you also need to pay attention to horses in the back of the pack. Its a viable strategy to pin an opponent's horse in the back of the field which will not only keep them out of the winnings, but also cost them a $100 penalty at the end of the race.

There are a number of variants for Winner's Circle that add a lot of flavor to the game. My personal favorite is the variant that uses hidden bets. When placing betting tokens, they are placed face down. Players have a 0 token that they can place as a bluff. This adds a wonderful dimension to the complexity of choosing which horse to move. You need to carefully study your opponent's movements to determine what they're trying to accomplish so you can try to outsmart them. I feel that the game should be played this way as a standard rule because it adds so much depth and flavor to the game. With visible bets, the game becomes a bit more of a standard roll-and-move affair.

Another popular variant is the group start. Instead of starting on individual spaces, all the horses start at the Start/Finish Line. This takes away any inherent disadvantages to starting from the back of the pack. I personally believe that the disadvantage to starting from the back can be mitigated by smart play, but I can agree to the fact that you are generally more likely to win from the front. Still, its the stats for the rear horse that determine if I'm likely to bet on it or not. If the horse is a sprinter, I'm usually inclined to throw a 1 chip on it because it can jump ahead of the pack pretty quickly with a bit of luck.

There is yet one more popular variant that allows horses to share spaces on the track. I don't like the idea of this one because I believe it removes a lot of the strategy from the game. A large part of the strategy is minimizing the distance an opponent's horse can go. Every space counts so giving up that advantage takes a lot of the strategy out of the game. It may make it a bit friendlier, but thats not really the point of the game.

Winner's Circle plays quick and shouldn't take more than 30 minutes per race for a 6-player game. With less players it goes even faster. While the rules state you should play 3 races, you could play 1 or 2 if time was short and still have a lot of fun.

Compare it to....

I don't have any other games that work the way Winner's Circle does. I find the way the die affects the game to be similar in some ways to Settlers of Catan. Whenever the die is rolled, something will happen which will benefit at least one player. In Settlers, the die gives you resources. Sometimes it helps you directly, by giving you what you need and sometimes it helps you indirectly by not giving resources to your opponents. In Winner's Circle, sometimes the die will let you move a horse only you have bet on. Other times it lets you move an opponent's horse a minimal number of spaces. The comparison isn't the strongest one, but there is some relativity.

Overall

I love this game. Thats the simplest way I can put it. I really appreciate games in which dice offer options instead of results and this is exactly what Winner's Circle does. All players are subject to the luck of the roll, but the player who does the best job of maximizing their opportunities and minimizing their opponent's will usually win. Smart play beats out luck almost every time. There will be the odd game in which one player continually rolls exactly what is needed, but thats part of the fun and big reason why the game lasts 3 races instead of just one.

This game could certainly be used as a gateway game. Its about the same complexity as Ticket to Ride and moves a lot faster. The rules are simple but the decisions are important. There is a die to offer a bit of familiarity to people used to "traditional" boardgames. The fact that it plays up to 6 is a real bonus to families looking for an activity to do together.

Most people point to Tigris and Euphrates or Taj Mahal as being amongst the most original Knizia offerings. Winner's Circle is no slouch in the BGG ratings, but it doesn't get the kudos it deserves. Knizia has created a fun game with a bit of luck and lot of strategy and tactics. While some of his other games may be more "gamer games", Winner's Circle has a lot to offer to anyone looking for a good light-medium weight gateway game.

I rate this game 8.5/10. The points lost are for cosmetic reasons. As stated previously, the Horse cards and horse figures could use some pizzazz but other than that, there's almost nothing wrong with this game. I can't recommend this one highly enough for new gamers or as a 6-player light-medium weight game.

Pros:
Simple rules
Fast gameplay
Plays up to 6
Die offers possibilites, not results
Stategy and tactics outweigh luck
Good solid components

Cons:
Horse cards could be prettier
Horse sculpts could be prettier
Horses lack personality and identity

Thread: Re: Acquiring Alea's Royal Turf?

deacondavid — 2007-09-17T03:13:22+00:00

You might check the various on-line retailers who deal in imports (Boards and Bits, Boulder, FunAgain, Games Surplus, Time Well Spent, etc.) - one of them may have some turn up. That's how I got my copy earlier this summer from Boards and Bits. All of the sudden, they had a couple of copies show up that were marked as slightly "damaged" (though the box damage is not terribly noticeable). Now, I need to track down an alea edition of Ra...

Thread: Re: Acquiring Alea's Royal Turf?

karp — 2007-09-13T03:18:25+00:00

Palpatine wrote:
I saw a few copies in Germany this summer. If you know anyone who is going there you may want to strike up a deal.

So is there anyone out there going to Germany this ~~summer~~ fall who wants to make a deal?

Thread: Re: Acquiring Alea's Royal Turf?

Palpatine — 2007-09-02T23:35:50+00:00

I saw a few copies in Germany this summer. If you know anyone who is going there you may want to strike up a deal.