Game: Jenseits von Theben

Thread: Re: Excavations and new year

Great Dane — 2008-06-17T08:20:43+00:00

waddball wrote:
It doesn't make perfect sense to me. If you finish in March 1902 and go to get a new license, it just seems odd that you would be issued a 1902 permit. You've already been digging in 1902!

The Government issues new permits once a year. Professor Waddball has a digging license for Egypt for one period to be used at any time within the next 3 years. He begins digging in December 1901 and continues into spring 1902. While excavating the Minister of Cultural affairs decided to grant prof. Waddball another digging license to be used once from 1902 onwards.

If Prof Waddball was really, really diplomatic or simply better at bribing, he could even end up with several digging licenses for the same area - except this isn't allowed in this game...

Thread: Re: Excavations and new year

waddball — 2008-06-16T20:02:03+00:00

Great Dane wrote:
Why do you assume that your permit from 1901 can only be used for digging during 1901? It makes perfectly sense that, once obtained, you may continue digging for as long as you like. But once you leave the site, you will need a new license to begin digging again.
It doesn't make perfect sense to me. If you finish in March 1902 and go to get a new license, it just seems odd that you would be issued a 1902 permit. You've already been digging in 1902! You should have had a 1902 permit to begin with, you swine, now it's off to the local jail with you. Unless, perhaps, you wish to offer me something to forget this little incident ever occurred...?

I'm sure we could go back and forth forever about what "makes sense in the real world," and I have no idea how real archaeological permits work. The more restrictive sense was more intuitive for me, as I think about government bureaucrats and visa processes (not to mention fishing licenses).

Thread: Re: Excavations and new year

Great Dane — 2008-06-16T19:26:15+00:00

waddball wrote:
Huh. We played this wrong our first game, and I thought the rules (the citations Jens quoted above) were pretty clear. The idea that it's December 30, 1901, you travel for a month and spend another two months digging, but use your 1901 permit, just doesn't make sense to me. I was of a mind that the permits were answering the question: "were you at this site during calendar year X?".

Not that it has to make sense thematically, but I think this loose interpretation also makes it weaker mechanically, as you lose some enjoyable planning and tension making things fit into a single calendar year (as in 1903, where you have to get it all done before the buzzer). I'll be sticking with my unknowing house rule, as it's easier to defend on all counts.

Why do you assume that your permit from 1901 can only be used for digging during 1901? It makes perfectly sense that, once obtained, you may continue digging for as long as you like. But once you leave the site, you will need a new license to begin digging again.

If the game allowed it you could keep digging for 10 years - as long as you kept digging...

Thread: Re: Excavations and new year

waddball — 2008-06-16T19:00:42+00:00

Huh. We played this wrong our first game, and I thought the rules (the citations Jens quoted above) were pretty clear. The idea that it's December 30, 1901, you travel for a month and spend another two months digging, but use your 1901 permit, just doesn't make sense to me. I was of a mind that the permits were answering the question: "were you at this site during calendar year X?".

Not that it has to make sense thematically, but I think this loose interpretation also makes it weaker mechanically, as you lose some enjoyable planning and tension making things fit into a single calendar year (as in 1903, where you have to get it all done before the buzzer). I'll be sticking with my unknowing house rule, as it's easier to defend on all counts.

Thread: Re: Artifact Junk

frogmind — 2007-09-02T05:54:44+00:00

If you know there's something valuable buried at a site (which you DO know for this game), in real-life, you'll most likely spend time REMOVING the junk from the site rather than throwing it back into the hole just so you can dig it out again.

I'm not an archeologist, but isnt' that REALLY the way it is at an excavation site?

I don't see the locations as individual sites but areas in which excavations are occuring; Greece or Egypt for example. These countries have a lot more than just one area in which to explore, but as discoveries are found the less there are to be made - hence the growing number of junk in relation to artifacts.

I don't mean to come across as someone shooting down your idea just because. I think you obviously spent a lot of time working through it, however, I appreciate Thebes for what it is a relatively light, but highly thematic game. I just felt like you were wanting more from this than it offers. There are many other games out there that will not be so dependent on luck, but Thebes is not one of those, nor, in my opinion, should it be.

Thread: Re: Artifact Junk

SteveP — 2007-09-01T18:53:09+00:00

frogmind wrote:
However, the idea that over digging a site not slimming the chance of discovery seems against the grain.
Think of it in these ways:

"The more you play, the better your odds are of winning." (Lottery logic)

"When you illiminate the innocent, you're left with the guilty." (Holmes logic)

If you know there's something valuable buried at a site (which you DO know for this game), in real-life, you'll most likely spend time REMOVING the junk from the site rather than throwing it back into the hole just so you can dig it out again.

I'm not an archeologist, but isnt' that REALLY the way it is at an excavation site?

Thread: Re: Artifact Junk

SteveP — 2007-09-01T18:39:50+00:00

Skadar wrote:
Personally, I would have to construct thematic reasons why someone would purchase junk items for exhibitions. And having the overall odds of finding antiquities do anything other than decrease with time just seems odd.
True, the valuable artifacts are the big-ticket items at exhibitions. However, occasionally at exhibitions you see a display or two of what it's like at a dig site, what kind of items where found. Those displays hold no real value other that to educate. Nevertheless, they DO attract readers, which can equate to a good exhibit.

In my variant proposal, maybe it would be best to limit the blank junk discs you can use to buy an exhibit to 1 disc. No one really wants to see an exhibit with mostly junk displays.

Anyway, my idea is that archeological junk, in quantity, might have value. For example, 10 pieces of broken pottery that can be jigsawwed together might be of interest.

Thread: Re: Artifact Junk

Skadar — 2007-09-01T03:03:22+00:00

I appreciate the effort you put into constructing your variant, however, I think that the game function fits the theme extremely well as is. And that is very important to me.

Personally, I would have to construct thematic reasons why someone would purchase junk items for exhibitions. And having the overall odds of finding antiquities do anything other than decrease with time just seems odd.

Thread: Re: Artifact Junk

frogmind — 2007-09-01T00:10:55+00:00

Performing exhibitions is only one path to obtaining victory in this game, and is usually accomplished by doing shorter length digs and not spending too much time gathering research or doing lengthy excavations. I found myself in the last few games to have completed many exhibitions. In one game I actually performed all five small and three large. This however eats time itself, and neglecting research prevented me from getting both the end game bonuses in most fields and also less valuable, and less in general artifacts. I can only understand the levels of frustration you have had if you approach this game expecting something rather different than what this game provides. Luck is a major equation, and managing that luck by taking the risk of digging without much knowledge or by ensuring yourself the best hope of finding valuable artifacts is ultimately the core of the game. The variant you propose reduces some of the flavour for me, as the reducing rewards for late digs is essential for the theme (and yes sometimes a late discovery of riches will be made). However, the idea that over digging a site not slimming the chance of discovery seems against the grain. I would first approach playing the game with different strategies before making such drastic alterations, but if it allows you to enjoy the game more by all means go ahead.

Thread: Re: Artifact Junk

marioaguila — 2007-08-31T23:06:42+00:00

It would be interesting to see that report, probably, with more than only one game

Thread: Artifact Junk

SteveP — 2007-08-31T21:33:54+00:00

In my opinion, Thebes is beautifully themed with only one flaw - that of getting artifact junk, but not getting anything in return. So, I've considered the following variant to reduce the frustration factor of finding junk. It's similiar to the food stamp variant in Settlers of Catan.

- While excavating, for each piece of artifact junk pulled, you get a junk counter. Junk counters can be anything such as chips, money, glass beads, etc..

- The blank artifact junk discs are returned to the bag as before.

- Junk counters can be used in a later action or for points at the end of the game.

- Besides the original 4 actions, a new action is as follows: While at a dig site, a player can buy artifact junk discs from the matching bag at a cost of 10 junk counters and 1 week per disc. These blank discs can be used to satisfy exhibition requirements in a later action. Spent junk counters are returned to the general supply.

- At the end of the game, junk counters are worth 1 point for every 10 counters. Any remainders are worthless.

- At the end of the game, purchased blank artifact junk discs are worth no points.

Justification for this variant is a follows:

1) Frustration over drawing junk is reduced in two ways. a) You get something for your efforts that might be of value later, and b) by purchasing blank artifact discs, the odds of pulling junk on future excavations is reduced - for all players.

2) Purchasing blank discs increases the ability to do exhibitions. In the few games we've played, very few exhibitions, if any, were ever bought.

I'm going to try this variant the next time I play and report back.

Thread: Re: Jenseits von Theben - Session Report

gschloesser — 2007-08-30T12:21:07+00:00

GeneSteeler wrote:
gschloesser wrote:
Thanks so much for the very kind words! I've been writing session reports since the Westbank Gamers formed back in 1995, and have authored so many it is scary!

Hey Greg! I've finally figured out How you write so many reports; http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/201931

Did it publish twice?? Wow! There's a trick I need to learn and use more consistently!

Thread: Re: Jenseits von Theben - Session Report

GeneSteeler — 2007-08-30T03:37:09+00:00

gschloesser wrote:
Thanks so much for the very kind words! I've been writing session reports since the Westbank Gamers formed back in 1995, and have authored so many it is scary!

Hey Greg! I've finally figured out How you write so many reports; http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/201931

Thread: Re: Jenseits von Theben - Session Report

gschloesser — 2007-08-29T17:13:37+00:00

TheSquatch wrote:
Excellent session report. It's a concise pill of exactly what happened and how people felt about it. This amount of information is so often passed off as a full scale review. I always enjoy your reviews, and I think many reviewers would do well to post these for a while instead.

Thanks so much for the very kind words! I've been writing session reports since the Westbank Gamers formed back in 1995, and have authored so many it is scary!

Thread: Re: Jenseits von Theben - Session Report

TheSquatch — 2007-08-29T16:09:03+00:00

Excellent session report. It's a concise pill of exactly what happened and how people felt about it. This amount of information is so often passed off as a full scale review. I always enjoy your reviews, and I think many reviewers would do well to post these for a while instead.

Thread: Jenseits von Theben - Session Report

gschloesser — 2007-08-29T14:02:27+00:00

Since it has been awhile since Terry Bailey was with us, he was given first choice in which game to play. He remarked that he was interested in playing Thebes, but had to settle for the 2nd edition version of Jenseits von Theben, as I do not own the current Rio Grande edition. We were about to begin when Scott Waisner arrived, so I gave up my seat and guided Terry, Scott, Ryan and Tim through the late 19th century world of archaeology.

Some have complained about the luck factor in the game, specifically when digging for artifacts. Well, I’ve never seen the luck factor strike so strongly, to the detriment of Tim. Tim made six separate digs, and uncovered exactly TWO artifacts, and both of those were minor finds. He ended the game with a grand total of three points in artifacts. Lest one think he was digging with little knowledge, let me dispel that thought. He had knowledge of nine and ten in two separate civilizations, and six in a third. He simply had horrendous luck. It really is a shame, as it no doubt affected his rating, and mine, too.

Terry and Scott proved the most adept at uncovering artifacts, each finishing with 26 points worth of treasures. Terry also managed to collect numerous Kongress cards, and won two exhibitions. Ryan was the leader in exhibitions, while Tim earned some degree of compensation for his poor digging by earning 8 points in knowledge. Terry’s collection of Kongress cards proved to be the difference.

Finals: Terry 51, Scott 42, Ryan 41, Tim 17

Ratings: Scott 8, Terry 7, Ryan 7, Tim 6

Thread: Hey, shouldn't we be finding artifacts?

daw65 — 2007-08-17T21:58:27+00:00

At this point, a lot of folks called it a night: Angel, Alice, Jeff, and Danielle all left, and Heather turned in as well. That left four of us. I'd been wanting to play a game for some time now, and I saw my chance, to I went to my bag and pulled out the German import game, Jenseits von Theben.

At the beginning players concentrated in collecting knowledge. Jon jumped at the chance to get three points of knowledge of Greece, though it took him eight weeks to do so. That let others get the smaller items more quickly. Dave collected a number of special knowledge cards for Palestine, and then jumped there to do a quick dig. An exhibition had been announced for artifacts from Palestine and Mesopotamia, and he was hoping that, even though he wouldn't be drawing many cards, he'd at least get one artifact, and so could nab a quick exhibition win. Alas, no, because his knowledge and the time he spent digging only gave him three cards, and they were dirt, dirt, dirt.

Meanwhile, Jim had been hiring assistants, and also learning a great deal about ancient Greece. Eventually he took that knowledge to greece and dug for 12 weeks. From the ten cards he drew, he only found two artifacts, and both two point artifacts at that, as well as one bit of general knowledge. And for his part, Paul found himself attending many Congresses of Archaeologists. Those are cards that are gradually worth more as more are accumulated: 1 card is worth one point at the end of the game, but 2 are worth three points, 3 are worth six, and so on. He pretty quickly had collected five of the cards, for 15 points, by week 42.

Dave was hoping to dig further in Palestine, but didn't have a permit for that site (legal or otherwise). So, instead he took his knowledge to Crete and he searched for 12 weeks, which netted him 8 cards. In those cards were four artifacts, which he promptly took to Rome for an exhibition.

By this point the calendar turned to 1902, and we're into our last year. Paul began the year digging in Mesopotamia, and he collected three artifacts and one general knowledge from the 10 cards he gained. Dave got his permit renewed, so he went back to Palestine to dig. He had his eye on another exhibition, which limited him to digging only 7 weeks, but with 9 points of knowledge he still got 7 cards, plus an extra from his very useful shovels. He found three artifacts from those eight cards, which he took to Paris for the next exhibition. Jim, too, revisits the scene of his previous dig, and does much better with this set of ten cards in Greece. He found four artifacts there. Feeling lucky, he pushed onto Mesopotamia, digging for 10 more cards, and getting two more artifacts and knowledge of Palestine.

Finally everyone catches up time-wise, and it's time for the Paris exhibition. Dave and Paul were both showing three artifacts, but the crowds preferred Dave's display twice as much as Paul's (die rolls of 4 vs. 2), so Dave got the win there. Both moved onto Berlin, but there Dave was able to display both Palestinian and Cretan artifacts, so his group of seven gave Paul's three artifacts no chance to impress.

At this point, the second year was winding down, and everyone realized that it was best to simply go and dig as much as and as often as possible before the year ran out. Paul dug in Egypt and found 3 artifacts and 2 knowledge in 10 cards. Dave returned to Crete to try to improve on the first year's haul, but only found two additional artifacts from 9 cards. Jon finally, after collecting lots of knowledge, and lots of general knowledge at that, finally went to Palestine to dig. He had boatloads of knowledge, and three shovels, so was able to get 12 cards. He did well, finding four artifacts and 1 knowledge card in the bunch.

In Mesopotamia, Jim made a quick stop in Palestine to dig out one card, just because he had the time, and found an artifact. He then went to Egypt, knowing that Paul already pulled three artifacts from the pyramids, and dug through the end of the year, for 10 cards. Sure enough, Egypt was apparently dug out, because Jim only found one artifact in those ten cards! Just to prove that, Paul used his forged excavation permit to dig in Egypt again, but he found nothing but dirt in his three cards. And with one week left, 15 wisdom, and a forged permit, Jon was still able to see five more cards from Palestine He only found one artifact in those five, but it was the Ark of the Covenant, worth 7 points!

So at the end of two years, we tallied the points. Jim and Paul proved to be the specialists, getting 8 points each for specialized knowledge in two civilizations. Dave had just a bit more knowledge of Palestine than Jon to claim those 4 points. Dave was the generalist, having at least 2 points of knowledge in all five civilizations, which earned him 7 points. Paul and Jon were the only ones to have attended congresses, giving them 15 and 6 points, respectively. Jim had won one exhibition, for 6 points, and Dave had taken three, totalling 16 points. And finally we tallied the artifact points themselves. Jon's 17 gave him a final total of 23. Paul only had 14 points in artifacts, but his earlier points still brought him to 37 points. Jim focused mostly on artifact digging, and it showed. His 33 points in artifacts gave him a huge boost, to 47 points. And Dave had dug up 24 points in artifacts, which, combined with the knowledge points and the exhibition points, gave him a total of 51 points for the win.

I think the theme of this game, archaeological digs, is really well portrayed in this game. There's certainly a lot of random elements, but I think it fits well with the game, and the digs themselves are exciting as you see just how much you'll be able to find.

Thread: Jenseits von Theben - Session Report

gschloesser — 2007-08-11T17:57:06+00:00

Many folks complain that the theme of most European-style games is thinner than Don Knots. Often, I agree with this assessment. However, Jenseits von Theben from designer Peter Prinz is a notable exception. Indeed, the theme here is closely mirrored to the mechanisms, more so than just about any other European-style game I’ve played.

I originally passed on the game when it was first released at the Spiel in Essen. I regretted this oversight, as subsequent reports were very favorable. I had the opportunity to play it months later and while I enjoyed it, I didn’t think it was as good as many were claiming. Still, the unique mechanisms and strong theme were enough to entice me to secure a copy of the second edition. Now, I hear that the new Queen edition is top quality and a huge improvement over the original. I guess I’ll be securing that copy and parting with my Prinze Spiele version.

Players are late 19th century archeologists searching for artifacts of ancient cultures and civilizations. These searches will center on the ancient cities of Greece, Mesopotamia, Crete, Egypt and Palestine, but first players must traverse Europe to acquire the necessary knowledge, equipment and assistants in order to increase their chances of success. The more knowledge and assistance a player acquires, the greater his chances for successfully uncovering artifacts when he begins to excavate.

Each turn, players will have the option of traveling to various cities in order to obtain these beneficial cards. Four cards are always available, and the cards list the benefits they provide and the time required to obtain them. There are cards giving specific knowledge in one of the five particular civilizations, as well as cards giving general knowledge that helps in all digs. Other cards will provide enhanced transportation, more digging potential, and even forged excavation permits!

The timeline of the game is very unique, as players determine on each turn how many “weeks” they will spend traveling, and either acquiring knowledge or equipment, or digging for artifacts. For example, a player’s pawn is currently in Berlin. He desires to acquire the card granting specific knowledge with a value of “2” in the Mesopotamian culture. According to the card, it takes four weeks to acquire. The player must first travel to Moscow, which is two cities away, and then spend four weeks in Moscow studying. Thus, the player will spend a total of six weeks on this turn. The player who is now last on the timeline will then take his turn.

Digging is the fun part of the game – and the aspect most laden with luck. There is a separate deck of cards for each civilization, each containing a mix of artifacts of various values and a wagonload of dirt. Once they arrive in one of the five key cities, a player will declare how many weeks he plans to dig. He will then draw – one at a time – a number of cards based on the number of weeks spent digging and his knowledge of that culture. This number may be increased by general knowledge, shovels and assistants that the player possesses. Any artifacts uncovered are kept by the player, while dirt is shuffled back into the deck after the dig is complete. Each artifact is either historical in nature, such as the Mask of Sargon, or legendary, such as the Ark of the Covenant. A large degree of the fun is the joy in uncovering artifacts – especially the valuable ones – and the agony of uncovering nothing but dirt.

Players cannot simply concentrate on one civilization, as each player may only dig in a city once per year – unless, of course, they are able to obtain forged permission documents! Still, points are awarded at the end of the game for having a wide range of knowledge, so players will want to diversify.

During the course of the game, cards will surface announcing artifact exhibitions at specific cities at a certain time in the future. Any players located on those cities at the time of the exhibition may display the corresponding artifacts and attempt to win top honors at the show. A die roll is added to the number of artifacts a player displayed, and the player with the greatest value wins the number of points depicted on the exhibition card.

Depending upon the number of players, the game will run two to three “years”. The length will be determined by how fast players use the allotted game time, but my experience has been that a typical game takes from 90 minutes – 2 hours to complete. At game’s end, players tally the following:

• Value of artifacts uncovered
• Value of exhibitions won
• Points earned from Congress cards (points increase exponentially with the number of cards collected)
• Final conference points, which is earned by having the most specific knowledge in the cultures, AND by having the most knowledge of all players when comparing their weakest field of knowledge.

The ability to earn victory points by methods other than the actual excavations does help mitigate some of the luck involved in the actual digs. Folks wishing for even less luck can play with several suggested variants, some of which remove some of the dirt cards from the deck and/or add more artifacts.

I understand the Queen version has changed the exhibition rules, and the civilization decks have been replaced with chits drawn from a bag. I’ve not yet played the new version, so cannot comment upon which version I prefer.

Jenseits von Theben has a wonderful theme that is tied very closely to the game’s mechanisms. It truly is a unique game, and one does get the feel of being archeologists pursuing knowledge and fabulous artifacts. While the luck factor can be high in terms of the actual excavations, there are mitigating factors, and the fun derived from playing the game trumps the concerns I have over the luck factor. I’m happy to see the game get a professional treatment and wider distribution. Who knew digging in dirt could be so much fun?

Fred, Bo, Gail and I spent the first several weeks traveling Europe in a quest for knowledge, assistants and equipment. Fred concentrated on shovels and equipment, gathering several assistants, a horse and even an airship. Bo was our knowledge expert, and sought to increase his knowledge of all civilizations.

Exhibitions appeared early, but we had to bypass several of them since none of us had yet acquired the requested artifacts. Eventually the digging began, and I had great success in Greece, finding four artifacts in the first four cards selected! Fred had far less success, only finding one artifact on one excavation, and coming-up empty-handed on another. He luck did change later, and he succeeded in finding the Holy Grail!

Gail’s digs were also proving successful, but her true bonanza came near the end of the game when she was able to acquire several Congress cards in quick succession. This was enough to earn her 15 points in this category, helping her achieve an impressive victory.

Finals:

Artifacts Exhibitions Congress Knowledge Total

Gail: 27 5 15 2 49
Bo: 22 6 1 10 39
Greg: 37 5 0 4 37
Fred: 22 0 3 11 36

Ratings: Bo 8, Gail 7.5, Fred 7.5, Greg 7

Thread: Re: # of players

davedanger — 2007-08-09T15:41:38+00:00

You get an 'A' for your response.

Thread: Re: End of game scoring

Moviebuffs — 2007-07-19T23:43:49+00:00

Smartypants answer: since you're talking about Rumour Cards, I presume you're playing Thebes rather than Jenseits von Theben. They were recently split in the database.

Thanks Steve.

That's why I couldn't find my question just now when I looked!

N.

I probably have the wrong game marked as owned too .....

Thread: Re: End of game scoring

SteveK2 — 2007-07-19T20:13:19+00:00

Simple answer: it's 1+2 (i.e. all the closed books)

Smartypants answer: since you're talking about Rumour Cards, I presume you're playing Thebes rather than Jenseits von Theben. They were recently split in the database.

Thread: End of game scoring

Moviebuffs — 2007-07-19T19:26:25+00:00

Quick question:

Which cards count for the 5-point bonus at the end of the game for each region ?

To be more specific, which of these count:

1. Knowledge cards
2. Knowledge Tiles
3. Assistants
4. Rumour Cards

N.

Thread: Re: A few Questions

dougadamsau — 2007-07-08T04:15:50+00:00

1. Discard pile

2. You have to finish the game on week '1' of the following year. So, move 2 spaces and dig for 6 weeks.

3. Yes, you move and take your action, then add your weeks on.

Thread: A few Questions

DKahnt — 2007-07-08T02:49:22+00:00

I played this for the first time today and liked it... just had a few questions if anyone could help:

1) When you discard an exhibit card, are they removed from the game or are they placed in the discard pile? The researcher cards, when used and wiped clean, are "placed in the discard stack." I just need clarification...

2) So its 1903 and you're on space 45, can you:
a) move to an excavation 2 spaces away, and dig as many weeks as you want?
b) move to an excavation 2 spaces away, and dig 5 weeks?
c) move to an excavation 2 spaces away, and dig 6 weeks?

3) And just to clarify: It's your turn, so you are in last place on the timeline. You are 1 space behind the next person. You are or are not able to move 2 spaces to the next city and then do an action... I am assuming you are allowed to. I think I got this one right, because you must perform an action after you move.

Thanks!

Great Game!

-DK

Thread: Re: Vs. Mykerinos?

lstr — 2007-06-29T16:01:05+00:00

Interesting. Thanks for the info!

Thread: Re: Vs. Mykerinos?

Powpow — 2007-06-28T22:54:11+00:00

In my opinion, to address your questions:

1) both games are pretty simple to learn. I think JVT is more intuitive just by reading the rules. Mykerinos is straight forward once you know the cards and scoring.

2) Mykerinos is definitedly shorter just because of the things involved. JVT requires flipping cards and looking at charts. Although not difficult, people do take time to decide.

3) both have very very strong themes. Both are perfect in this case.

4) again, both are very easy games to learn but I think mykerinos is less 'luck' based.

5) oh, i just answered that...

Both are great games.
Hope this helps.

Thread: Re: Vs. Mykerinos?

chaddyboy_2000 — 2007-06-28T22:50:24+00:00

Really, there's not really much comparison at all between these two games besides the theme, but here's the comparison you asked for.

1) Complexity - Both games are on the low end of the complexity scale, with Jenseits being slightly more complex.

2) Length - Neither game is that long, either. I'd say Mykerinos is about a 30-45 minute game, while Jenseits is about an hour or slightly more.

3) Fit between theme/mechanics - Mykerinos has pretty much no fit between theme/mechanics, while Jenseits really gives you the feel of excavating/exhibiting wares. Basically, Mykerinos abstracted the process to a degree where you really don't feel that it's an archaeology game, while Jenseits really gives you that feel.

4) Number of players - I've played both games with 2-4, and they seem to play fine with any of those numbers. Four seems ideal, though.

5) Game weight - They both have the feel of a filler, although Mykerinos is more so. Jenseits has a little more to it that makes it more engaging than a filler.

6) Luck - Mykerinos has nearly no luck, while luck plays a large part in Jenseits.

Thread: Vs. Mykerinos?

lstr — 2007-06-28T21:54:32+00:00

I've not had a chance to study the rules for either game but I would like opinions on how JVT compares to Mykerinos along these general lines:

1) Complexity
2) Length
3) Fit between theme and mechanics
4) Ideal number of players
5) Overall game weight
6) Luck

Thread: Re: Excavations and new year

Noaceyet — 2007-06-08T14:16:34+00:00

Here is the Official Word from Peter Prinz himself (from spielbox.de)

Die Grabungserlaubnis wird zwar erst nach der Grabung umgedreht, aber dies ist noch Teil des Spielzuges des betreffenden Spielers. Der Jahreswechsel wird erst nach dem Spielzug des Spielers relevant, d.h. die Grabungserlaubnisse werden erst nach dem Spielzug wieder umgedreht!
So gesehen ist zweinmal Graben hintereinander (Jehredsende/Jahresbeginn) durchaus möglich (und auch sinnvoll, da man sich Reisezeit sparen kann)!

The excavation license is turned over after the excavation, and this is part of the player's turn.
The year change becomes relevant after the player's turn is over, which means that the excavation licenses are flipped again at that point.
Because of this, you can dig two times in a row (Year's end, and again at the beginning of the new year), which is quite useful, since you save a bunch of traveling time.

-Rob

Darn it, where is that boat...is it July yet? Still waiting for the US release

Thread: Re: Excavations and new year

Great Dane — 2007-06-08T12:34:25+00:00

jens_hoppe wrote:
I am surprised that a situation as common as this (one I was wondering about after reading the rules, before I had even played the game) isn't covered explicitly in the rules.

Well it is. Sort of.

You turn over the Excavation License after you have finished digging - but you receive a new License AT THE END OF THE TURN in which you entered the new year (page 7, bottom).

Thread: Re: Excavations and new year

jens_hoppe — 2007-06-08T10:39:24+00:00

Ah, another setback for harsh interpretations!

Thanks for the clarification, Bernd.

Thread: Re: Excavations and new year

Akke — 2007-06-08T09:49:53+00:00

I agree that both interpretations are possible, we played it like Jens the first game, and it worked nicely. It didn't seem harsh at all. In a 3-player game it adds a sense of urgency to your first 3/4 year.
It also makes sense thematically. A permit is given for a year, not for a year plus some more months because you couldn't be bothered to start in time.

[After preview]

Thanks for the clarification Bernd, we will try to play it the intended way also.

Thread: Re: Excavations and new year

Bernd — 2007-06-08T09:46:28+00:00

Akke wrote:
When a player performs an excavation that passes beyond the end of the year, does he get back his digging license for that site when his turn is ends? (only counting the first two year of course)

Hi Akke,
if you start an 8 week excavation, let's say in week 51, you will get back your resp. digging license at the end of your turn, because of entering the new year.

All the things you do in your turn (digging, getting items, getting knowledge, doing an exhibition, and so on) are refering to the week your "timemarker" is placed on at the beginning of your turn.

Back to my sample, you begin your excavation in week 51 lost your license and will ghet it back at the end of your turn after crossing the new year eve.
Otherwise you would loose a whole year for digging! That was not the intention.

Hope that helps and all the best from germany
Bernd

Thread: Re: Excavations and new year

woodnoggin — 2007-06-08T09:26:36+00:00

That's a harsh interpretation of the rules! We prefer to play more leniently, but I can see arguments either way. The fake permit cards don't get used much in our games; I can see them being more useful under your ruling.

Thread: Re: Excavations and new year

jens_hoppe — 2007-06-08T09:16:03+00:00

Here are a few quotes from the English rules at the Queen website to back up the above claims.

Using the time wheel – the number of tokens to draw ...

The player moves his time marker along the time track the number of spaces equal to the number of weeks he chose to dig.

When a player's time marker crosses space 52, a new year begins for that player. That player immediately turns all his excavation permissions to the valid side, allowing him to once again execute excavations at those sites.

Ending the excavation
The player's excavation is complete. He turns over the excavation permission he used to display the side with an “X”.

Thread: Re: Excavations and new year

jens_hoppe — 2007-06-08T09:05:50+00:00

We have been playing it the opposite way (dig permissions end up used for the new year as well) based on an interpretation of the timing described in the rules:

- The time marker is moved forward when the length of the dig is announced (or at least before "AFTER the dig").
- If the time marker crosses the new year, dig permissions are turned 'available' side up immediately.
- The dig permission being used is turned 'used' side up "AFTER the dig".

I realize this may easily be an incorrect interpretation, but I am surprised that a situation as common as this (one I was wondering about after reading the rules, before I had even played the game) isn't covered explicitly in the rules.

Thread: Re: Excavations and new year

Great Dane — 2007-06-08T08:22:40+00:00

Yes, the licenses are renewed as soon as you enter the new year - which could be while you are digging in Egypt (they will send you a telegram!)

Thread: Excavations and new year

Akke — 2007-06-08T07:44:24+00:00

When a player performs an excavation that passes beyond the end of the year, does he get back his digging license for that site when his turn is ends? (only counting the first two year of course)

Thread: Re: What does the name mean?

npetry — 2007-05-10T16:02:57+00:00

Werbaer wrote:
East of Thebes

I think the best literally translation would be "Beyond Thebes". But the german name sounds very similar to the name of the movie "Jenseits von Eden" (intentionally, i assume), whose original title was "East of Eden".
duchamp wrote:
I think the more usual term in a German Bible for the country where Adam and Eve settle down after they were thrown out of Paradise is "jenseits von Eden", so the translator of the Steinbeck novel quoted the German Bible. Maybe the translation changed in the last decades, but they left the title of the novel as it was.

BTW, a silly name for the game, which is beautiful.

Aha! That explains things. So it's basically a play on words (like Ohne Furcht und Adel). I just knew there was something I was missing about why this game would be called "Beyond Thebes", and that explains it.

Thanks to everyone who helped sort out this riddle.

I'm sure looking forward to getting a copy of this, whatever it's called!

Thread: Re: What does the name mean?

duchamp — 2007-05-10T11:55:57+00:00

I think the more usual term in a German Bible for the country where Adam and Eve settle down after they were thrown out of Paradise is "jenseits von Eden", so the translator of the Steinbeck novel quoted the German Bible. Maybe the translation changed in the last decades, but they left the title of the novel as it was.

BTW, a silly name for the game, which is beautiful.

Thread: Re: What does the name mean?

Frank Hamrick — 2007-05-10T00:41:10+00:00

Correct! The name means East of Thebes.

Thread: Re: What does the name mean?

Werbaer — 2007-05-09T20:09:22+00:00

East of Thebes

I think the best literally translation would be "Beyond Thebes". But the german name sounds very similar to the name of the movie "Jenseits von Eden" (intentionally, i assume), whose original title was "East of Eden".

Thread: Re: What does the name mean?

ekted — 2007-05-09T19:59:38+00:00

I'm pretty sure you are right: Beyond Thebes. In that interview, Jay said he thought it was some guy's name.

Thread: What does the name mean?

npetry — 2007-05-09T19:24:00+00:00

I've been trying to figure out the meaning of the name of this game. The last part is easy -- "from/of Thebes", but the "Jenseits" bit has me stumped.

I checked out the excellent http://dict.leo.org/ , but none of the suggested translations seem to make much sense in this context. The best I can come up with is "Beyond Thebes", or "On the other side of Thebes".

Is this correct, or can any native German speakers suggest a more appropriate translation for this title in English? I have a feeling I'm missing something here...

I heard Jay Tummelson say that the English/multilingual edition would also be called "Jenseits von Theben", so maybe it's untranslateable!

Thread: Re: Am I going to like this one?

skelebone — 2007-04-19T13:08:02+00:00

jtakagi wrote:
Hmm... in a way you are sort of out of luck. One player will usually not completely clean out an excavation area, but it is possible that it would be very depleted. And every player that pulls out any treasures will lessen the probability of success for you.

Unless you're playing with Charmed-life-Chad, who rolls into Palestine to find that the citizens have stacked the treasure up at the gate for him.

Thread: Re: Am I going to like this one?

jtakagi — 2007-04-18T19:02:54+00:00

I didn't really answer your question. You can go somewhere else to dig, but generally it is hard to do so unless you also have knowledge of that area. You collect knowledge (in the form of cards) about each of the areas, more knowledge allowing you to pull more cards (or chits, I believe, in the new version). There is also general knowledge, which applies to all of the excavation sites, but you are generally limited to use only as much general knowledge as you have specific knowledge about a site. Does that make sense?

Thread: Re: Am I going to like this one?

jtakagi — 2007-04-18T19:00:44+00:00

Hmm... in a way you are sort of out of luck. One player will usually not completely clean out an excavation area, but it is possible that it would be very depleted. And every player that pulls out any treasures will lessen the probability of success for you.

But at the same time, you can see who is collecting knowledge about that area (this is open information) and you should be able to anticipate who is competing with you in a certain area. Part of the fun is knowing how much time to invest in an area. I guess players that insist on being able to calculate everything will have a hard time with the game. There are variants to reduce the luck factor, but I personally enjoy the luck. It's a hoot to see someone go "all in" in an area and pull up nothing but dirt.

Thread: Re: Am I going to like this one?

ropearoni4 — 2007-04-18T18:50:28+00:00

Now, that being the case, I find that I might not like doingallthat work,and someone else gain the treasure right before me. Is there somewhere else I can go to excavate if someone beats me to the punch?
Leonardo Da Vinci was okay in the way it let you gain on an invention even if you didn't make it. A few other games give you at least something with all that effort.

Thread: Re: Am I going to like this one?

chaddyboy_2000 — 2007-04-18T18:47:20+00:00

I would say that you'll love this one according to what you just said.

Thread: Re: Am I going to like this one?

jtakagi — 2007-04-18T18:22:37+00:00

Yes, I think you will like this one. There is a good amount of luck in it (or at least there was in the Prinz version), and much more interaction than in T&T. For example, there is competition for artifacts. Another player can come through an excavation area and clean it out just as you were about to embark there.

The rules are quite simple and the gameplay is easy. I find the game to be quite thematic, especially in the implementation of luck in the excavation. Dig - you may find something, you may not.

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alkis21 — 2006-01-27T11:20:34+00:00

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alkis21 — 2006-01-27T10:52:10+00:00

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alkis21 — 2006-01-27T10:51:02+00:00

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puppi — 2005-11-13T19:29:31+00:00

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GeoMan — 2005-11-02T20:38:10+00:00

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shawn_low — 2005-10-25T17:20:26+00:00

2nd edition board detail. Laser printed and pasted on foamboard.

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shawn_low — 2005-10-25T17:20:25+00:00

Transparent Excavation Table Overlay. 2nd Edition.

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shawn_low — 2005-10-25T17:20:21+00:00

Excavation table and wooden pawns.

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shawn_low — 2005-10-25T17:20:18+00:00

Contents of the box sans board.

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caesarmom — 2005-10-19T12:20:50+00:00

Jenseits von Theben cards