Game: Rise and Decline of the Third Reich

Thread: Re: First Session in Years: Part II - War in the East, War in the West

gittes — 2008-11-29T15:29:55+00:00

Agreed I personally think it was madness for the Soviets to invade Turkey.

Hopefully the next session will see none of that.

Thread: Re: First Session in Years: Part II - War in the East, War in the West

bluekingzog — 2008-11-29T15:06:13+00:00

Agreed I personally think it was madness for the Soviets to invade Turkey.

Thread: Re: Rise and Decline of the Third Reich Editions

SewerStarFish — 2008-11-27T00:25:33+00:00

Broken -- in that certain situations that can arise are not clearly covered in the rules. The game is still quite playable, but if you want I can email you my .pdf of the 4th ed. rules.

Thread: Re: Rule question

SewerStarFish — 2008-11-27T00:22:36+00:00

rogeracox wrote:
Well, my question is, did that mean that the Axis (mainly Italy) need no longer put units on their beaches--as long as they put a unit ADJACENT to the beach (an empty hex), the Allies would be prohibited from ever attacking them?

No. It means that if there is a unit adjacent to an empty beach, there can be no breakthrough. Rule 29.432 indicates that invasions can take place against a hex with no ground defenders. I believe that this is the only occasion when non-armored units can soley attack a vacant hex.

Thread: Re: questions about the fourth edition rules

SewerStarFish — 2008-11-27T00:10:46+00:00

pillbucket wrote:
If partisans control their country's capital, the controlling Axis nation loses the BRP's if it fails to retake the capital (32.7). So if Allied forces and partisan units take the capital together, or if Allied units take the capital and let a partisan unit occupy it, the Axis still loses the BRP's? I play the partisans have to take the capital without Allied support - otherwise the Axis will lose too many BRP's. Right or wrong?

They way you write the question makes me wonder -- Are you aware that if just the non partisan units take and control the capital the Axis still lose the BRPs. This particular rule is emphasizing that the partisan's temporary control is enough -- but not a unique power.

Thread: Re: Foriegn Aid/influence

SewerStarFish — 2008-11-27T00:04:41+00:00

Also use foreign aid to prevent the axis minor allies from appearing on schedule if you are the allies. If you grant 6 more BRP's than the Axis you prevent that minor from activating until the Axis grant at least enough to allow a die roll.

At first it's annoying; but after repeated plays, there's a lot of fun tricking you enemy into thinking you have this or that variant counter.
(OK - not a lot - but some).

Thread: Re: TR comparison question

gittes — 2008-10-28T17:29:00+00:00

My main comparison would be Breakthru which I disliked for being too restrictive and gamey (check my review for further details: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/198736). I know Hitler's War and Axis & Allies: Europe aren't the same level of complexity as TR but I felt even more let down by those titles. TR is a classic and in my book hasn't been surpassed although I haven't played Europe Engulfed, Advanced Third Reich, or Totaler Krieg!.

Thread: Re: TR comparison question

masaakunokouchi — 2008-10-28T14:47:43+00:00

for all questions above, 2nd ed can go out the window. Adv 3r is pretty good on all accounts as a multi-player game. Some would call it outdated but I still have a spot for it. As compared to EE... *shrug*

Thread: TR comparison question

MrTom — 2008-10-28T14:14:25+00:00

Wow, what a suprise. I expected to come to the Third Reich page and see only entries from years ago. I'm glad to see TR is still being played.

I own TR, 2nd edition. I was planning to sell this, as well as my copies of Starship Troopers and Wooden Ships/Iron Men. I have Europe Engulfed and have played it several times. My initial thoughts were that EE has sort of replaced TR, but upon reflection i'm not sure about that. It seems that TR could have some advantages due to more maneuver room, different attack options (attrition, offensive), etc. I have really never played TR (other than one or two partial games 20 years ago).

So my question to you veterans is how does TR stand up to EE, or any other more modern games of SIMILIAR SCALE AND PLAYTIME (I assume they take about the same length of time to play - 10-15 hours for campaign game). Does TR offer anything they don't, is it bogged down with unclear rules or broken mechanics, is TR worth keeping?

THanks.

..Oh yeah, is TR worth playing with 3-5 players? I would really like to find a quality multiplayer wargame, it'd be great if I already had it!

Thread: Re: I found a copy

KillerB — 2008-10-25T00:42:56+00:00

Although this is a GREAT game, I can't recommend it to someone who has not played a wargame before because it was pretty high on the complexity scale when it came out. As far as the "rules sheet" goes, it is about thirty pages of relatively small print. If you are mostly a Euro player and want to try out a war game, I would suggest something simpler. Have you tried Combat Commander?

Thread: Re: I found a copy

Wilhammer — 2008-10-24T22:09:56+00:00

3rd and 4th are physically no different.

Enjoy. though somethings might pass as 'unrealistic', the game works very well with its topic - it is the 1st and some say best generation of its genre - medium sized rich strategic WW2 wargame.

Thread: Re: I found a copy

gittes — 2008-10-24T21:42:38+00:00

Also of note, I've never played a wargame before. What am I in for?

This was the first hex wargame I tried to play. Notice how I said tried. I would not try this coming out the blue. Download the computer game (I posted it here) to help with the rules, but try another wargame first because jumping into this would be a shock to the system. Beyond all of that it is among my favorite wargames, and one of the few in which I don't mind the complexity of the system.

Thread: I found a copy

Moberho — 2008-10-24T17:32:22+00:00

So I found a copy of this game (3rd edition). And by found, I mean nobody else wants it. The box has everything but the rule sheet. Is there any way I can get a copy of the rules from the internet without violating some kind of copyright? Also, I am likely missing a few counters. Is there an inventory for this game?

Also of note, I've never played a wargame before. What am I in for?

EDIT: So, I found a copy of the 4th edition rules. How can I convert 3rd to 4th edition?

Thread: Rule question

rogeracox — 2008-10-10T17:39:31+00:00

Does anybody remember that rule in 3R that says you can attack an empty hex and then exploit? Then someone abused it to make a humongous stack in southern Spain to attack Gibraltar, so the rule became "you can't attack an empty hex if there's an enemy unit adjacent to said empty hex." Am I right so far? Well, my question is, did that mean that the Axis (mainly Italy) need no longer put units on their beaches--as long as they put a unit ADJACENT to the beach (an empty hex), the Allies would be prohibited from ever attacking them?

Image

gittes — 2008-09-21T19:10:04+00:00

WarGame Processor

Image

gittes — 2008-09-11T19:13:15+00:00

Third Reich video game - overall map.

Image

gittes — 2008-09-02T21:25:57+00:00

New Counter's Designed by John Cooper

Thread: Re: Opening strategy for Axis

moonglum01 — 2008-08-28T03:26:52+00:00

You might want to go after Greece if you are planning an attack on Turkey. Germany can only have 20 factors in Minor Allies before the Russian DOW - owning Greece gives you some more options & more Germans to play with.

Thread: Re: Opening strategy for Axis

olivier6 — 2008-07-02T08:16:18+00:00

Greece : I would always avoid attacking it. You need at least 2 offensives plus the DOW (40 BRP plus losses) so BRP-wise it's always a losing trade.

Luxemburg : the problem of taking it in Fall 1939 is that the French can recapture it in an attrition option. They could even try an offensive to burn some BRPs.

Is there ever a time other than Fall 39 to take an attrition option on the Western front?

In general I prefer to take France in a couple of Offensives. However, in some circumstances a German attrition on the max column can gain a lot of ground (say in Summer 1940 hoping to take Paris in Fall 1940).

Thread: Re: Opening strategy for Axis

olivier6 — 2008-07-02T07:30:11+00:00

Norway:

taking Norway with 2 x 3-3 landing near Oslo is a bad idea, because Norway won't surrender this turn and a good English player will send units to Norway and you're in for a long campaign.

there are essentially two methods:
1. attack Denmark in Fall 39 (under attrition option) and move a unit to the Northern hex of Jutland. Build an airbase there and SR the Paras and an airwing. You can attack Oslo in Winter 39 with 8 factors to 4, i.e. 2:1. You have 3% chance of losing the Paras for ever. Like you say, the Paras will be away from France for one or two turns, which is a minor disadvantage.

2. Italy declares war in Fall 39, SR one 2-5 Tank to Königsberg and land them in Norway with a German 4-6. Exploitation takes Oslo..

Thread: Re: Easier rules

cartwright — 2008-07-01T16:20:03+00:00

vstrode wrote:
I have only been able to play it on a Windows 95 or 98 machine, which
I keep for that purpose. Have you been able to get it to play on XP?

I have been able to. Right click on the .exe and go to "compatibility." You can mess with the parameters to get it to run in XP.

Thread: Re: Opening strategy for Axis

cartwright — 2008-07-01T15:55:38+00:00

Thanks for the info. Yes, I've found that the computer is spectacularly inept, especially on the eastern front. They don't seem to think much about stopping breakthroughs.

For Norway, do you take it with the two German fleets with 3-3s and no air cover? I don't see any way to knock out Norway in one turn other than by basing a paratrooper and some air in northern Denmark. Unfortunately, that prevents the vital paratrooper from being available for France.

Is Greece ever a solid idea for the Axis? I know that, against human players, some have suggested Greece for Italy in hopes of sucking the British into a war of attrition, but it seems like an awful lot of BRPs spent for nominal gain

Against a competent human player, is the traditional German progression:
Fall 39: Poland, Luxembourg
Winter 39: Denmark, Holland, Belgium
Spring/Summer 40: France (Offensive)

Is there ever a time other than Fall 39 to take an attrition option on the Western front?

Thread: Re: Opening strategy for Axis

olivier6 — 2008-06-30T09:12:01+00:00

Sum 40, usually Britain DoWs Italy.

I guess you're playing against the computer AI, because I've noticed that it tends to do that every time. A British DoW on Italy is actually a major blunder (unless Italy can be knocked out of the game immediately): in general, the AI is spectacularly inept in this game. If you're playing against the computer, pretty much any strategy will give you the victory.

If you're playing against the computer, you can use the Winter 39 / Spring 40 flip flop (which will always happen if you build Germany to the max) to conquer Britain, or at least to gain a solid foothold in England.

If you're playing against a (good) human player, invading Spain after France (assuming France falls early enough) to take Gibraltar can be an interesting strategy. You can take Norway at the same time as Denmark / Belgium / Holland in Winter 1939. Regarding Yugoslavia, I like to attack it with a neutral Italy in Fall 39 (1:1 attack on Belgrade with 83% chance of success) rather than paying an Offensive in the Med with Germany which makes it economically doutful (25 BRP cost for a 20 BRP annual yield).

Thread: Opening strategy for Axis

cartwright — 2008-06-27T22:05:36+00:00

I've recently gotten back into playing 3R (mostly the AH computer version). In particular, I'm interested in opening strategy for the Axis. I find that my games usually fall into the same sort of routine:

Fall 39, GER takes Poland. Italy builds up in Libya and stays neutral.
Win 39, GER takes Yugoslavia, Luxembourg GER builds out entire army.
Spr 40, GER takes Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium, invades France.
Sum 40, usually Britain DoWs Italy. Now Italy just plays a waiting game, slowing the Brits down.
Sum 40-Fall 40, GER knocks out France. Italy sends armor through to pick off French North Africa while attrition against the Brits.

Win 40, Spr 41, GER redeploy over to Russia. Sum 41, GER invade Russia. Then it's just a matter of racing against the clock to see if enough Russians can be cut off and unsupplied before the Americans can land in force in France.
----
Does anyone have any different strategy for the early part of the game? What should German strategy on the western front be in the opening seasons? How long should Italy stay neutral? Should Italy get involved in the Balkans? What about Norway? Should Germany ever think about going for Spain/Gibraltar and cutting off the Mediterranean in lieu of invading Russia?

Thread: Re: Easier rules

vstrode — 2008-06-23T22:12:32+00:00

I have only been able to play it on a Windows 95 or 98 machine, which
I keep for that purpose. Have you been able to get it to play on XP?

Thread: Re: Third Reich Strategy Problem

olivier6 — 2008-06-20T13:22:36+00:00

Solution, final part

[o]Summer 1940: flip flop!
France and Britain take Offensive option in the Med and France takes Offensive in the West.
2 British fleets from Saint Nazaire change base to Gibraltar
Move the French armor in Vichy to the beach adjacent to Marseille to cut sea supply. Move 5 French AF to Metz.
Transport two British tank corps from Tobruk to Venice, Italy will not intercept due to Special Rule 5. With now 11 Allied fleets in the Med to 4 Italian, it would be suicidal anyway.
The four Tank corps in Italy now move as follow :
one 4-5 from Tobruk debarks and moves from Venice to the hex East of Genoa via La Spezia, closing both ports to sea supply / sea transport from Tripoli or Albania (4 MP). Attack Genoa (empty hex).
one 4-5 from the BH moves to X23 via Livorno and Rome (5 MP), blocking any recapture of Rome.
the 2-5 Tank corps attacks the empty hex between Prague and Dresden (5 MP) and the last 4-5 (from Tobruk) follows, exploits and attacks at 3:1 the hex east of Bonn (N27) with 3 AF intercepting and 2 AF supporting (use French from Metz). Most German units are now out of Supply except the 4-6 in the Alps and units on the Eastern front and Libya. The Axis surrenders. Note: this happened in a real two-player game.

Potential German response
Germany cannot prevent the fall of Italy but it can save its army if it reopens a supply line.
1. The only German unit able to move on the Western Front is the 4-6 in the Alps. Since it starts in a ZOC the only possible move is towards Genoa or Marseille, with the view of (possibly with the help of German units coming from the sea) reopening a sea supply line through eiher port. Since Albania and Tripoli will no longer be supply sources after the capitulation of Italy at the end of the combat phase, this is a dead end.
2. Note that both German units (3-3 INF) in Southern Italy can be supplied from Albania or Tripoli. This requires a change of base which can be intercepted by the remaining 7 Allied fleets. They could eliminate the British armor, but not recapture Rome since there's no Armor for exploitation. Alternatively, a Transport mission could take the supplied German 3-3 in Tripoli or the Italian 1-3 in Albania to the continent, but it would be even more dangerous and would achieve nothing more. Another dead end.
3. Any other combat on the Western Front will achieve nothing since unsupplied unit cannot advance after combat, and supply lines cannot be traced over enemy controlled hexes. The only weak point is N27 which, if taken, would reopen a supply line along the Belgian border (still controlled by Germany). Only a 3-3 from Frankfurt can attack it at 12 to 8 or 1/1, with 83% chance of success. If it fails, 96 BRP worth of ground units are eliminated. Even if it succeeds, Italy is out of the war and the Allies have another turn (the Fall turn) to isolate he German armies of the Rhine, which will not have moved.[/o]

Thread: Re: Third Reich Strategy Problem

olivier6 — 2008-06-19T07:25:50+00:00

Solution, first part

Spring 1940, Allied turn

[o]France and Britain take Offensive option in the Med, Attrition in the West.

Sea supply :Turkish 2-factor fleets provide sea supply for the British tanks in Tobruk and for the Turkish tanks in Libya.
One Fleet change base Gibraltar to Tobruk. Per special rule 5, the Italian fleet need 2 fleets to intercept, so we assume no interception either from air units in Syracuse or Fleets in Taranto. This is the most rational Italian choice considering the uncertainty regarding Allied plans and considering that the French fleet can counter-intercept (the Axis never likes sinking potential Vichy ships). See discussion below if Italy does intercept at this point.
Two Fleets change base from Plymouth to St Nazaire, France.
Two Fleets change base from Plymouth to Gibraltar.
Move one British 5-4 air unit to Ajaccio, Corsica
Place last French airbase at Lyon. Move two French 5-4 air units to Lyon. French counterair Germans in Milan.
Move both British tank corps in France away from German units.
Move a French tank corps to Vichy.

Amphibious invasion from Tobrouk to W24 (beach near Venice) with both Tank units. Avoid Italian air in Syracuse. Support invasion with ships and air from Corsica.
Italy will not intercept with a -2 drm, so no interception (again, the possibility of French counter-interception is normally a significant deterrent)
Odds are 4 ground (4-5 Tank corps ) + 6 naval (2 fleets) + 5 air = 15 to 6 = 2:1 (97.2% chance of success). Take any loss from Air factors. If full exchange, eliminate 3 fleet factors. Place BH. 2-5 Tank corps exploits into Venice.

SR: two British tanks from France to Tobruk.
no builds

what if Italy intercepts the first change of base ?
The three AF in Syracuse can eliminate on average 0.5 naval factors. Even if they eliminated three, the invasion is still at 2:1 odds.
Assuming naval interception succeeds (83%), and counter-interception by the French fails, and Italy wins the combat, the British fleet must return to Gibraltar, but Italy only has a maximum of 2 uninverted Fleet, so still cannot intercept the W24 invasion force (per special rule 5). Invasion odds at W24 are now 4 ground + 3 naval + 5 air = 12 to 6, or still 2:1.[/o]

Problem 2: With this first turn, how do the Allies finish the game ?

Thread: Re: Third Reich Strategy Problem

olivier6 — 2008-06-17T15:25:16+00:00

contest is still open.

I'm giving one hint

[o]land at the original Arsenal[/o]

Thread: Re: Third Reich Strategy Problem

Wilhammer — 2008-06-10T12:03:41+00:00

Well, if the BRP situation involves a flip flop, I can solve this.

I'll write it up in detail later today.

Thread: Re: Third Reich Strategy Problem

olivier6 — 2008-06-10T07:29:15+00:00

Bill, you're right, there's a mistake in the file. German BRP should be 90, not 190, so a flip flop is possible. Thanks for your interest !

but even with a flip flop, the capture of Berlin through Bremen is not really a solution because a counterattack with all those panzers on the Rhine (supplied from Rome or Warsaw) will probably succeed. There may be a solution involving the capture of Berlin via Bremen but it will have to take care of the German Rhineland forces.

Like you say, the solution does not involve Russia because Russia cannot enter the war in 1940. Note the solution does not necessarily involve taking Berlin - but the Axis situation has to be so obviously hopeless that the Axis player will resign.

Thread: Re: Third Reich Strategy Problem

Wilhammer — 2008-06-10T03:25:42+00:00

The only way it can be won is if Berlin falls.

Russia is in an excellent position to do this - she could easily end this with 2 3-5 armor doing an exploitation attack on Berlin by first taking out the air in Prussia, the unit in hex two hexes North of Brest Litovsk, but it being 1940, the Russian CANNOT attack Germany. If it were Fall 1941, it would be over.

If the Allies are in a position to Flip Flop this - the thrust comes from Britain through France.

Move the British fleet in Plymouth to Cherbourg.

Voluntarily destroy an airbase to allow placement at Great Yarmouth. Move/SR the British Armor to Cherbourg.

Bomb the German fleet in Bremen - you need to destroy one factor of it to allow an invasion there. Two air forces doing this about guarantee one factor will die.

Next, invade Bremen, and Exploit a 4-5 armor next to Berlin.

Attack Berlin. 2:1.

However, as the BRPs are 228 Axis and 227 Western Allied, no flip flop is possible.

Unless I have totally missed something (which I probably have), this puzzle has no solution - the timing is wrong.

Thread: Re: Third Reich Strategy Problem

nyhotep — 2008-06-09T10:49:44+00:00

http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?14@1001.WBsjd44B7go.2783124...

That's the link to the original article

Thread: Re: Third Reich Strategy Problem

olivier6 — 2008-06-09T07:13:52+00:00

yes, but my problem above has a solution...

the Germans in your game should perhaps have made sure that a 1:2 counterattack was impossible. There's no luck in Third Reich, only good planning. :-)

Thread: Re: Third Reich Strategy Problem

Wilhammer — 2008-06-09T01:27:07+00:00

One of the 'problems' with this game is the heavy granularity of the forces and the CRT.

Case in Point - diabolical die rolling resulted in the Germans taking Paris and then losing it TWICE to 1:2 counter attacks.

Our game ended in Spring 1941 - France still in the game, The BEF in Amsterdam and Brussels, and that Brussels unit was armor, with a French unit in Luxembourg, had the Germans cut off from supply.

Thread: Third Reich Strategy Problem

olivier6 — 2008-06-07T18:42:55+00:00

Allied Spring 1940 turn: Allies play and win the game.

See the cyberboard file:

http://www.geocities.com/henriquatre@ymail.com/problem.zip

cyberboard gamebox can be obtained here:

http://loakes.game-host.org/limeyyankgames/games/gameboxes/3...

Special rules:

1. Turkey is a French active minor ally.
2. The Netherlands, Poland, Norway and Denmark have been conquered by Germany.
3. Belgium and Luxemburg are neutral and cooperating with the Allies. Allied units (including air units) may enter Belgium and Luxemburg but may not cross the border into Germany or the Netherlands or attack across it until the Axis DoW. ZOC do not extend across the border. The Allies may never DoW Belgium or Luxemburg.
4. One (only) German 4-6 Panzer in the northern hex of the French Alps is exploiting (in supply).
5. Axis fleets will not try interception if the chance of winning the resulting naval combat is less than 30% (i.e. with a net drm of -2 or worse for the Axis).

Here is the set up in text form:

France
BRP = 107
Tunis: 3 x 9 Fleets
II16: 2-3 INF (France controls hex II15)
T18: REPL
Lyon: 3-5 ARM, REPL
R21: 2-3 INF
R22: 2-3 INF
Q21: Airbase, 5-4 AIR
Q22: Airbase, 5-4 AIR
Q23: REPL
Strasbourg: 2 x 2-3 INF
Metz: 3-5 ARM
Luxemburg: 2 x 2-3 INF
N24: 2 x 2-3 INF
N25: 2 x 2-3 INF
M24: 2 x 2-3 INF
Calais: REPL

Turkey (French minor Ally)
Istanbul: 2-3 INF
Z34: 2 x 2-3 INF
AA31: 2-3 INF
BB31: 2 x 2-3 INF
Izmit: 2 x 2-4 AIR
Antioch: 3 x 2 Fleets
GG36: 2-3 INF
LL18: 2-5 ARM, BH counter
MM16: 2-5 ARM
Turkey controls hex MM17

UK
BRP = 113
Tobruk: 3 x 9 fleets, 2-5 ARM, 4-5 ARM, 2-4 AIR
MM24: 1-3 INF (UK controls hex LL24)
LL27: Airbase
Port Said: 1-3 INF
Malta: 2-4 AIR, 1-3 INF, 3-4 INF
Gibraltar: 1 x 9 Fleet
S20: 4-5 ARM, 3-4 INF
Sedan: 4-5 ARM, 3-4 INF, 5-4 AIR
Brussels: 3-4 INF
O21: Airbase, 5-4 AIR
P21: Airbase, 5-4 AIR
L21: REPL
Portsmouth: 2 x 3-4 INF
L23: REPL
Plymouth: 4 x 9 Fleet
Great Yarmouth: REPL
J25: REPL
G26: REPL
Scapa FLow: REPL

Germany
BRP = 90
Helsinki: 3-3 INF
Bergen: 9 Fleet (inverted)
G32: Airbase
Bremen: 9 Fleet
L29: REPL
Berlin: REPL
N27: REPL
Leipzig: 2-4 AIR (inverted), 3-4 AIR
Frankfurt: 3-3 INF
O27: REPL
P25: 4-6 ARM, 3-3 INF, BH counter
Stutgart: 3-3 AB, 4-6 ARM
Nürnberg: REPL
Prague: 5-4 AIR
Q25: 3-3 INF
Munich: REPL
R25: 4-6 ARM, REPL
R26: 2 x 4-6 ARM
Berchtesgaden: 5-4 AIR
Milan: Airbase, 2 x 5-4 AIR
T20: 4-6 ARM
T21: 2 x 4-6 ARM (one and only one is exploiting)
V20: 4-6 ARM
Taranto: 3-3 INF
AA23: 3-3 INF
Z30: 3-3 INF
Y32: 3-3 INF, 4-6 ARM
Tripoli: 3-3 INF
Bucarest: REPL
Königsberg: 5-4 AIR (inverted)
J37, K35, K36, K37, L37, Warsaw, M36, N35, O35: one 3-3 INF in each hex
Germany controls hexes U19 and V19

Italy
BRP = 38
Syracuse: 2 x 2-3 INF, Airbase, 2-4 AIR (inverted), 3-4 AIR
Messina: 1-3 INF
Tirane: 1-3 INF
Taranto: 4 x 9 fleets
AA23: 2-3 INF
Livorno: 5-4 AIR (inverted)
W24: 1-3 INF, REPL
Venice: Airbase
Turin: 1-3 INF
U20: 2-3 INF, 2-5 ARM
Z30: 2-5 ARM
Italy controls hexes NN24, MM25, LL26 in Egypt

Russia (neutral)
BRP = 115

Image

fractaloon — 2008-05-17T17:17:11+00:00

Board #4, from left to right.

Image

fractaloon — 2008-05-17T17:14:23+00:00

Board #3, from left to right.

Image

fractaloon — 2008-05-17T17:13:09+00:00

Board #2, from left to right.

Image

fractaloon — 2008-05-17T17:07:28+00:00

Board #1, from left to right.

Image

fractaloon — 2008-05-02T00:55:33+00:00

Higher resolution shot of the back of the box.

Thread: Re: Any plans for a Cyberboard version?

olivier6 — 2008-04-19T17:25:29+00:00

http://loakes.game-host.org/limeyyankgames/games/gameboxes/3...

Thread: Re: Cyberboard 3R multiplayer anyone interested

olivier6 — 2008-04-19T17:22:35+00:00

game box is here

http://loakes.game-host.org/limeyyankgames/games/gameboxes/3...

Thread: Re: Foriegn Aid/influence

Nitro50010 — 2008-04-06T20:41:34+00:00

Thank you.

Thread: Re: Foriegn Aid/influence

casadeisogniburritts — 2008-04-06T14:41:19+00:00

My understanding of foreign aid is that it is used to adjust the possibility of an event, not to cause one or change the timing of the event (minor allies in 1941, Vichy France, Spain on play of Variant, etc.). For example, if foreign aid is sent to Spain by the allied side, and then the variant event is played, the aid forces a roll to see if the activation succeeds. Without aid, the event is automatic.

From the rule book:

33.66 A power may not use Foreign Aid to activate a Minor Ally it is not normally entitled to; it can only influence its activation by the normal controlling power. Foreign Aid modification determination die rolls are made whenever a minor is due to activate, whether by variant or other means, and Foreign Aid by itself can never affect this timing

I think that if the Axis really want Spain, they have to conquer it.

Thread: Foriegn Aid/influence

Nitro50010 — 2008-04-06T00:45:55+00:00

I'm alittle confused about foriegn aid.How can you get minor to align with you, ie. Spain to go Axis other than variant counter?

Thread: Re: John Prados’ Enduring Legacy

Cleitus the Black — 2008-03-27T19:14:26+00:00

Excellent review. Thanks for the memories!

Thread: Re: John Prados’ Enduring Legacy

gittes — 2008-03-26T06:35:16+00:00

Great review of a great game.

Thread: Re: John Prados’ Enduring Legacy

Rastak — 2008-03-26T00:56:05+00:00

I played it to death in the 70's. 25 or so games, finishing none. WAYYYYYY too long. I actully had more fun reading the rules, and I'm serious. Actually, if I hadn't had a strong interest in girls, music and sports (in that order) back then, I may have taken the time to play it though. The game did keep drawing me back. Last play? Probably 1979.

Thread: Re: John Prados’ Enduring Legacy

GROGnads — 2008-03-26T00:11:00+00:00

Great "REVIEW" here once again, and what about adding the "East Africa Campaigns" onto it all? There were a SET of "counters" for this, and you had that "Rules" from the 'Battleplan' magazine article, including "mapsheets" with that. Giving it ALL a NEW & "improved" edition might then bring it BACK onto the "playing" arenas. What 'says' YOU?

Thread: Re: John Prados’ Enduring Legacy

GeneSteeler — 2008-03-25T23:52:03+00:00

Played this to death in the 80's.

Thanks for your solid review of this 'classic'

Thread: Re: Easier rules

da pyrate — 2008-03-25T23:18:18+00:00

Jackal! wrote:
I picked up a copy of this from Cavalier the other week and am keen to play but a little overwhelmed by the rule book.

It looks overwhelming but it is deceptive.

Although the rule-book is 36 pages long you really only have a close look at the first 10 pages which cover the basic mechanics of the game and the 4 pages which cover air and naval rules in detail to start playing.

When you start to play make sure that you just follow the sequence of play which is listed on the last page of the rules. It tells you when to do things and gives rule references to check.

More than half the rules are for the chrome - things that don't happen all the way through the game and just pop-up from time to time and in certain situations. You don't need to know or understand these rules to start playing the game. The special rules you can pick up later when you are comfortable with the basic mechanics of the game.

I hope that this helps.

Thread: John Prados’ Enduring Legacy

da pyrate — 2008-03-25T23:00:28+00:00

Rise & Decline of the Third Reich

]]>
Grand Strategic Simulation of WWII in Europe
2- 5 Players
Designed by John Prados
Fourth Edition Published by Avalon Hill (1981)

Third Reich (3R) was first published in 1974. I never played the first or second editions. I was lucky enough to upgrade my second edition to a third edition via the Avalon Hill upgrade pack. Before playing the third edition I was able to get a copy of the fourth edition rules.

Why do I use the word lucky? Simply because the rule book is both thick and detailed – it would have been a shame to have wasted all that brainpower, unnecessarily, learning the second and third editions to then only have to relearn the fourth edition.

I remember the first time that I played the game. I had owned the fourth edition rules for several months. I had read articles in The General about the game that I felt made the game sound absolutely fascinating. I was overwhelmed by the size of the rules and the scope of the game. I drove 90 minutes to the Newcastle Workers’ Club to play with 3 other guys on a Tuesday evening. I knew that it was going to be a late night and that I would be tired at work the next day, but I didn’t want to miss out the opportunity to see the game played and give myself a better chance to learn how to play it. It is always much easier to read the rules and understand them after someone else has played the game with you and shown you the basic mechanics and sub-systems. We were playing the 1939 scenario and as I didn’t really have a clue what I was doing I was given control of the Soviet Union. We would have won – except for me. The Allies were working towards a double move (by carefully managing your economics it is possible for the Allies to get two consecutive turns in 1940) – they mentioned it to me but didn’t really explain it. They had set themselves up for victory. I got bored and invaded Turkey. The money I spent on the invasion meant the Allies did not get a double turn and the Axis won the scenario. I was not very popular in London and Paris, but that didn’t worry me overly as I had just played my first game of 3R.

Components

Map – the box describes the map as a “mammoth 32 inch x 22 inch four section, full colour map-board depicting Europe from the fjords of Norway to the sands of Egypt, and from Ireland to the Ural Mountains.” An accurate description except I have measured it – it is just 32 inches by 22 inches – I am not sure that I understand the concept of mammoth inches – either its 32 by 22 or its not 32 by 22. The sea areas are a blue, and most of the land hexes are white. There are brown hexes for mountains and desert and blue for marshes and river lines. The map is divided into three areas of operations (Eastern Front, Western Front and Mediterranean Front). The map shows cities as either ports, capitals, objectives or plain cities. The most used combat charts are printed on the map, along with some holding areas as well as a list of forces available to minor countries and the cost of producing new units. The map has a clean look and is rather functional, even if a little on the plain side. I have seen the map for ‘John Prados’ Third Reich’ (Avalanche Press), which is a TOTALLY different game – its map is much more colourful and dynamic but is nowhere near as user-friendly as the map for the Avalon Hill 3R game.

]]>
Counters – the game comes with 550 counters. Many of these counters are replacement counters, at various strength levels, for air, naval and strategic units and, as a consequence, you will never have the situation of having all 550 counters on the map. Counters represent infantry, armour, air, naval, airborne and replacement units. The counters represent the forces of the six major powers and fourteen minor countries. The counters are not especially colourful but they are clear and user-friendly. The counters are of a good quality, nice thickness and with a gloss finish.

]]>
Charts – the game comes with a card for each major power, showing its set up details for the scenarios and campaign game. The French and US cards have naval and air combat tables printed on the reverse side.

Rules – the rule-book is 36 pages and highly detailed. The rules are very clearly written and logically set-out. The game is highly playable and easy to learn. The best feature of the rule-book is the Sequence of Play (printed on the back page) – relevant rules are listed on the SoP and by following the SoP it is very easy to learn and play the game and to not make mistakes. The use of combined forces in tactical situations is crucial to successful operations and following the SoP makes it easy to get everything right!

The Rules

The game has both economic and military elements to it. Having a strategy (or, at the very least, a cunning plan) is fairly important if you wish to win. Quite apart from strategy, having the right tactical approach is just as important. In my most recent game of 3R I played the role of the Axis in the ’39 campaign. My strategy was atrocious – however, my tactical play was far superior to that of my opponent and I was able to win the game on the basis of tactical superiority, despite looking every bit the strategic dunce.

The game is played with each turn representing one of the four seasons. At the start of the year there is a Year Start Sequence where players resolve strategic warfare, calculate their incomes, construct strategic warfare units and determine spending limits for the following game year.

At the start of each turn the wealth of each side is compared and the side with the largest economic reserve goes first. Wealth is measured in Building Resource Points (BRPs)

The active player may declare war on other countries.

The active player then selects an option for each of the three fronts. The options are Offensive, Attrition or Pass. The Attrition Option is free and costs no BRPs. It is simply a matter adding up the number of land factors present and in contact with the enemy on a front, rolling a die and seeing how many enemy units are destroyed and how many hexes you capture. A Pass Option is used when your Allies, on the same front as you, wish to use an Offensive Option and you don’t. With a Pass Option you are allowed to move units on that front but are not allowed to participate in combat. The Offensive Option is the most expensive selection as you have to pay 15 BRPs each time you launch an offensive on each front. Offensive Options do give you the chance of the most spectacular successes as they allow you to active naval and air units, launch counter air operations, airborne operations, invade beaches and initiate exploitation movement and combat after the initial combat phase is complete.

Fleets can be used to provide transport between friendly ports, transport for amphibious assault, strategic redeployment of land and air units, and bombardment in support of land combat, supply of land units and interception of enemy fleets.

Air units can fly missions in support of land units (both offensively and defensively), to attack enemy air-bases or intercept enemy air units.

Units must maintain a supply line or face elimination.

]]>
Only armour units exert a Zone of Control into adjacent hexes – entry into a ZOC is free but exit from a ZOC costs an extra two movement points.

There are rules for strategic warfare, intelligence, political variants and many other items.

The basic rules for movement and combat only take up 8 pages of the rule-book. Another 6 pages is taken up with the specific details of how to use specialise units (air, naval, airborne, partisans and reserves). The remaining 22 pages are taken up with ‘special’ rules (or chrome, if you prefer that time) that only come into effect for small part of the game, or only in a particular locations or only in particular situations.. To play the game you only need to understand the first 14 pages – to play the game WELL you need to understand the whole rule-book. What this means is that it is fairly easy to learn the mechanics and to start playing the game. I have played the game over 50 times and for the first 25 games I learnt something new about the rules every time that I played.

I find the rules fairly well set out and easy to read and understand. The easiest way to learn the game is by starting to play it. The detailed specialised rules can be looked into at the appropriate time.

Winning the Game

Victory in game terms is usually achieved by control of objective hexes. There are 14 such objectives on each front. For the small major powers (France and Italy) victory in the campaign game is achieved by not being eliminated from the game by a particular date.

Each major power can be taken out of the game if their opponent can occupy the power’s capital and hold it for a complete game turn.

]]>
Playing the Game

I find the game to be exciting, tense and, on some occasions, gut-wrenching. It works well as a two-player and also works well as a multiplayer game.

One of many interesting aspects to the game is the Construction Phase. Each nation has it's own unique counter-mix. Part of the fun of 3R is actually coming up with a plan, and then building the force that most effectively allows you to put your plan into effect. You need to work out do you need expensive offensive units, or cheaper defensive units. If you are on the attack you still need some cheaper units to absorb losses. It can be a fine line between how much is too much and how much is not enough.

If you are on the attack it is exciting to try to manage the nation’s economy as well as the military forces and to come up with a plan that allows all facets of the nation to work together. It is not good enough to be winning on the battlefield if your economy is crumbling.

If you are on the defence it can be quite tense as you try to hold off the enemy where he is in strength and at the same time look for opportunities where you can put him off balance and thereby throw him off of his schedule.

When playing it is usually a matter of looking forward several turns and seeing what opportunities you can create to later take advantage of. To be honest, the player with the better knowledge of the rules certainly has a lot more options to choose from and consequently the more experienced player should win most of the time.

Having said that however, I can remember one game where luck was against me. During an offensive if the attacker has 2:1 odds there is only one chance in thirty-six that the attack will fail. I was in a multi-player game and I was controlling the Axis. Early in the game I attacked Paris at 2:1, and lost the attack. It slowed me down but I continued on. In the mid-game I attacked Moscow at 2:1, and lost the attack. It was a turning point and the Axis went on the defence at that time. Late in the game we had been pushed back and the UK/USA had invaded Western Europe. I was able to launch an unexpected airborne assault against London at 2:1, and lost the attack. It is a great gaming experience to have luck against you so badly (and each one at such a crucial point) and yet to have the ability to keep fighting back, trying to drag victory from the jaws of defeat.

On two occasions, when playing the Germans, I have been able to capture Paris on turn 1. It gives a great sense of satisfaction to spend 30 minutes setting up the game and seeing your opponents discussing their initial deployment and then take only 15 for your first turn, capture Paris and have your opponents surrender immediately.

]]>
Third Reich? Love It!

“Dead Men Tell No Tales!”

Thread: Re: Reglas en Castellano

cloro — 2008-03-22T10:08:09+00:00

¿Nadie tiene las reglas del Third Reich en español que las pueda postear aquí? Muchos las andamos buscando, además que contribuiría a expandir la afición por este fabuloso juego.

Thread: Re: rules on the web

saxon357 — 2008-03-18T23:56:46+00:00

www.wargameacademy.org has 4th Edition Rules for download. Need to use color printer for clarity. 55 pages.

Thread: Re: From Berlin to Glasgow, Ankara, Jerusalem and back.

masaakunokouchi — 2008-03-14T14:33:51+00:00

wow this is an old session report...

Thread: Re: From Berlin to Glasgow, Ankara, Jerusalem and back.

SFClinken — 2008-03-14T13:00:45+00:00

Great, I just replied on a 2 year old comment...

Thread: Re: From Berlin to Glasgow, Ankara, Jerusalem and back.

SFClinken — 2008-03-14T12:59:55+00:00

mejustjustin wrote:
Cool, I want this game Did u make up your own time scale or does the game have it's own? I heard supplies were in this game, how does that work? How do u know how many units u get each turn?

Well the supply rules are rather simple. If you can trace a line free from ZOC from your troops to a supply source in the end of your turn you live. If not you die...The number of units you can build depends on your economy (BRP) wich grows with the number of countries you control.

Thread: Re: Quick Comments

dunne — 2008-03-13T12:16:54+00:00

J_Andrew_Evans wrote:
Anyone fancy working out how to play online?

It's perfectly straight-forward to play by e-mail really. I've done it a few times, even organised a multi-player game once (although I'll grant people did drop out before the end).

Image

MoraleCheck — 2008-01-19T21:50:03+00:00

Box sides of the 1st/2nd Eds. (L) and the 3rd/4th Eds. (R)

Image

patrel — 2007-09-10T15:00:36+00:00

Third Reich 2nd Edition AH boxfront