Game: Demonlord

Thread: Vassal module for Demonlord available

morvael — 2008-07-25T13:39:08+00:00

What the title says

It's here:
http://vassalengine.org/community/index.php?option=com_vassa...

The wiki is worth looking at, there are some hints how to use various windows available in the module and what each piece command means.

It took a bit of effort to make this one, it's my first bigger work in Vassal. Of course bugs are expected to occur, so please report to me any errors you will find.

Thread: Re: Demonlord: an OOP that deserves some PnP lovin'

stephenhope — 2008-06-17T22:42:00+00:00

Having played this game several times recently, I can say:

1. IMO the game is strongly tilted towards the Demons; and
2. it's not a very good game.

Which was pretty disappointing for us, because both my friend and I remembered it as a fun game from our childhood. But the FUN in the game basically comes down to a big battle on the northern plains. The biggest problems:

1. Siege rules make it very hard to take a castle/city without losing better units than your opponent, even with a significant edge in siege magic/leadership. This makes it much better to retreat and submit to siege than to fight field battles if you are at all outnumbered.

2. The special spells are unbalanced (the Necromon spell gives the Demons a big advantage in the long game; the Light/Darkness spells or whatever the morale-reducing ones are are critical to get because they're used in every big fight) or annoying (Rains is a pain).

3. The lack of unit replacements makes for a game that spirals out of control after a few lucky breaks.

4. Fundamentally, there's not a lot of strategic choice. You stack up your units, recruit or ally as many people as possible, then try to press the advantage along one of the two fairly linear avenues of advance.

It's a shame because there's a LOT to like in the game--the prisoner exchange mechanic is clever, the peace talks and VP system are good though there's some trouble with their implementation, and the combat system is entertaining.

Thread: Re: Demonlord: an OOP that deserves some PnP lovin'

Rliyen — 2008-03-11T12:20:46+00:00

dbucak wrote:
It's been a long time since I played this but I seem to remember there being balance issues. Have you had any problem with one side or the other being stronger?

The "problem" with balance is one of perception, in my opinion. This game is supposed to reflect a strongly held Demon province, with a human uprising occurring. Is it fair? No. Is it insurmountable for the Hosar player? Absolutely not. Granted, the human player starts off in a numerically inferior position, but they're spread out and can cover more ground, and get to more allies, than the Demonlord player. The Demonlord starts in the east and in a more defensive position. Furthermore, the human player has more leaders to start off with that allow units to move at their full movement. The Demonlord player has to use invocation magic to match, or call for reinforcements, and even then he might not get any because of the random draw for reinforcements.

Thread: Re: Demonlord: an OOP that deserves some PnP lovin'

nyhotep — 2008-03-10T14:36:13+00:00

Good review. Reminds me of all the things I really like about this game.

I wouldn't worry about the board too much, it was always strongly coloured. It was also in thick card, with some horrible creases at the folds, and never layed flat (just like other DS games).

Thread: Re: Demonlord: an OOP that deserves some PnP lovin'

pippinite — 2008-03-10T11:29:19+00:00

Thank you. I've been debating wether or not to print this up and I think I will now.

Thread: Re: Demonlord: an OOP that deserves some PnP lovin'

dbucak — 2008-03-10T04:06:11+00:00

It's been a long time since I played this but I seem to remember there being balance issues. Have you had any problem with one side or the other being stronger?

Thread: Demonlord: an OOP that deserves some PnP lovin'

Rliyen — 2008-03-10T02:35:12+00:00

Demonlord is an out of print, yet freely downloadable, game made in 1981 by Heritage USA. It was listed on the Cordwainer Bird Awards as a challenge to have a review written for it. Gladly, I take up the gauntlet to write a review of this sleeper game.

Demonlord is a fantasy wargame for two players. A player can play the Alliance of Hosar (I tend to think of them as the Free Peoples, seeing that this game has the look and feel of Tolkein’s work. There’s a wink and a nudge regarding certain units, “The Balron” aka ‘Balrog’ and “The West Wizard” aka ‘Gandalf’) or the Demonlord Nisshar (Sauron).

”You cannot hide. I see you. There is no life in the void. Only death.”

Object of the game: To destroy or capture the opposing player’s characters, troops, and fortresses. There are two ways to win the game. If the Demonlord player captures Timur (Hosar’s main capital), the human rebellion is put down and results in an automatic Demonlord victory. If the Alliance captures Nisshar (Demonlord’s main capital), the game is won by the Hosar player.

The other way is by garnering victory points at the end of each turn by destroying/capturing more enemies than losing in return in a turn, delaying in requesting reinforcements, having less neutral forces as allies than your opponent, controlling more fortresses than the enemy, and for each enemy city under your control. Victory points are garnered each turn for each condition mentioned above. After amassing enough victory points, either player can attempt to end the game by initiating truce talks. If truce talks are started, the game will end after a certain benchmark, which is a target number to be reached by rolling two d6s and adding the current turn number. On a 20+ total, the game ends the following turn. On a 15-19 roll, the game ends after another d6 turns. During this time, the players can still fight it out in order to earn more victory points before the game ends. If the game ends in a tie, the Hosar player wins. The Demonlord can only win by having more victory points by the end of the game.

”What news from Tor’zem, milord? What does the Inner Kingdom command?”

Components: I cannot comment on the original game components, only the PnP version that I made. To be honest, I’d rather have a “real” version of this game than the one I made, primarily because the map is so. damn. ugly. I tried several different configurations to have it print out in a lighter tone, but they all came out ending the same. As for the pieces themselves, they came out better and are a lot easier on the eyes; but judging by the style of the artwork on the chits, you can tell the game was made in the early ‘80s.

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Anyone who is familiar with any game where a surfeit of information is shunted onto a tiny chit should be able to understand the game easily. The bottom portion of the unit is dedicated to the unit’s missile skill, melee skill, morale value, and movement points. The unit icon designates what type of unit it is and what type of armor it possesses (Heavy, Medium, or none). The chit also designates its movement mode (cavalry, foot, or winged) and the Homeland deployment location where the unit starts the game.

“March to Timur. Leave none alive. To WAR!”

Gameplay: The game is played in turns, comprised of two phases: The Hosar phase and the Demonlord phase. A “phasing” player is the one taking his turn, their opponent is designated the “non-phasing” player. The roles are reversed when the phasing player finishes his portion of the turn.

Regardless of whose phase it is, each phase occurs in the steps listed below. The Hosar player goes first every turn, followed by the Demonlord player.

1.Unit movement: The phasing player moves his units, including moving in reinforcements (if they were called).

2.Invocation: The phasing player may attempt to summon new units at certain locales (For example: Light Spirit, West Wizard for the Hosar player. Pit Fiend Yorgash, Shaman’s Spirit, and the Worm Lord’s entourage for the Demonlord player.)

3.Battles: Phasing player now resolves any battles initiated by him, including any use of battle magic by characters involved in the battle.

4.Sieges: The phasing player now resolves a siege round, this includes any of his fortresses that are under siege by the non-phasing player.

5.Alliances: The phasing player may attempt to become allies with the neutral forces scattered throughout the land of Nisshar.

”You! SHALL NOT! PASS!”

Things I liked:

Victory point tradeoffs: During each turn, victory points are generated for the players. What I liked is that the players had to make choices, sometimes hard ones, to maximize VPs for a turn. If you were being soundly defeated, you could call for reinforcements and/or try to ally with neutral forces that dot the map. But, if you did so, you would lose one VP/per turn permanently (calling for reinforcements) and possibly one VP/per turn temporarily (If you have more neutrals as allies than your opponent).

Initial alliances with neutrals are uncertain/possibility that a set of neutrals will not be available for the game: Sometimes when trying to get the neutral armies to rally to your cause, you run the risk of having a semi-permanent alliance with them at best and an semi-permanent ally to your enemy at worst. The semi-permanence of the alliance may realistically change with the onset of two conditions: the neutrals are defeated in battle (either withdrawing from battle or by being destroyed) or their homeland is taken by the enemy. Either of these conditions may cause the neutrals to rethink their part in the alliance. It may forge a permanent alliance, they may become neutral again, or they may become a semi-permanent ally to the enemy. The uncertainty of the alliances leads the player to use some forethought in order to keep them from leaving or becoming an ally to the enemy. There’s also uncertainty when the neutrals are approached as allies during the Alliance phase and they turn out to be just a myth (the units are removed from the game permanently and their fortress becomes just a village).

Another nifty tactic is to force neutrals into an alliance with your enemy by attacking them. Why? Because if your opponent has more neutrals allies than you do, you get additional victory points and they do not. Normally, I end up doing that with the weaker neutral races (Ancients, for example) and kill off enough to make them useless to the enemy, but encumbering them in a permanent alliance.

Combat system = Pure Genius: The combat system is one of the more innovative aspects of the game that I have seen. When the phasing player attacks enemy units, the NON-phasing player picks the terrain that the battle will occur. This is important since the type of terrain where the battle is fought limits the amount of units in the fight, as well as modifiers to their “to hit” rolls. Then, the phasing player puts up a unit to fight, followed by the non-phasing player. This allows the defense to put up their best fight tactically, as opposed to just counting up the strength of the individual units and doing strength vs. strength comparison like some other games.

Combat is also simultaneous and a breeze to go through. You roll two dice and try to roll at or below the skill of the unit’s melee/missile skill. If successful, you cause a hit and force the unit to roll one die for a morale check. If the affected unit rolls under their morale, nothing happens. A roll equal to their morale score causes the unit to rout; it is then placed in a pile to the side (The winner of the battle gets their routed units back. The loser loses his routed units and they become prisoners). If the morale roll is higher than the unit’s morale score, then the unit is destroyed.

Once an enemy unit has been routed or destroyed, the unit that prevailed is then redeployed against another enemy unit. The beauty of this rule is that there are no uneven fights until one side runs out of reinforcements. Only then will 2+ units vs. 1 unit fights occur. Players can easily see the battle ebb and flow with each round and gives them more than enough options to reinforce a winning battle, or to sound the retreat.

Leaders are important: Leaders in the game are neither uber units, nor are they totally useless. They act as a command element for the stack they are with. If they have Leadership skill, they provide two bonuses: 1) bonuses to morale rolls (which make the unit harder to rout/kill) and 2) allow the units to move at their full movement. Leaders are also the only units that are able to cast magic, so having them gallivant about without protection is tantamount to asking them to get captured by the opposing side.

Hex side payment for movement: This concept was rather new to me and took a little bit getting used to. Instead of paying for movement for cost of the hex you are entering, you actually pay the cost of the terrain located on that hex side. If there are two or more types of terrain (for example, forest and open), the phasing player can choose to go through the terrain that has costs the least.

Truce talks: As described above, this allows the players to force an endgame situation. This is especially advantageous if you're winning.

Prisoner Exchange: After several battles, the players will usually accumulate a gaggle of enemy prisoners. If you have several of your units in the clutches of the opponent, you can request for a prisoner exchange at the end of your phase. Your opponent puts up a unit of his choice and you then can either match it with one of his units. If that is done, then both are freed. If you refuse, the prisoner exchange is over.

Random reinforcements for both sides: The game maintains its freshness with little rules like these. When you call for reinforcements, you don't get all of them and you don't get to pick them. You have to pull them randomly.

Magic has its place, but is far from powerful: At the setup of the game, the player has several options in choosing his spells. He may choose one and draw three random ones or he can choose five at random. The Demonlord player can reduce the morale of the enemy and resurrect destroyed units. The Hosar player can also affect the morale of the Demon troops, and can cast a spell to flood certain hexes to limit movement of ground forces. The remainder of the spells are universal, meaning both sides have the same type spells. These spells can do things ranging from teleporting units to increasing movement.

” I gave you the chance of aiding me willingly, but you have elected the way of PAIN!”

Things I didn’t like:

TWO PLAYER ONLY: Self-explanatory, really.

DATED ARTWORK: If the game ever makes it to reprint, which is beyond doubtful, it definitely needs a face lift in the artwork department.

LUCK OF THE ROLL: Ah yes, the dreaded “luck” factor. Personally, this isn’t a dislike, just a warning. There are *gasp* dice rolls. Winning a fight, casting a spell, and convincing neutrals depend on the die roll. If you don’t mind rolling dice for outcomes, then you’ll be fine. If you detest luck, dice, and/or AT games in all their forms? Keep moving the other way and quickly.

HARD TO ACTUALLY KILL UNITS: The average morale in the game is 4. Short of using magic to cause morale loss or the limited, circumstantial occurrences in combat, the danger of units being destroyed due to rolling higher than their morale level is not very high. More often than not, the units will rout and end up being captured if their side loses.

It’s more dangerous for the characters than units, since characters must be attached to units. If that unit routs, or is destroyed, you have to roll to determine the fate of the character and you have a 1/3 chance of the character dying. The other half of the time, the character will simply redeploy to a new unit and there’s only a 1/6 chance that the character will actually rout. Since a routed unit result happens more often than being outright destroyed, characters end up getting the short end of the stick.

CANNOT KILL PRISONERS: Wait, WHAT? Aw, C’mon!!!! That’s right, routed units captured in battle cannot be executed. They’re only good as leverage to get your own captured units back. During your phase you can proffer a unit to your opponent and trade them one for one. This, in turn, leads to units being brought back into play.

SCRIPTED OPENING MOVES: Just like with any static wargame (Axis & Allies comes to mind), you are usually stuck with the same set of opening moves. For instance, a Demonlord player would be remiss if he didn’t have Lord Erush use Invocation magic on the Temple of Yorgash to summon the Pit Fiend (The strongest magic using character in the game) or to have the head priest of the Temple of Ninnghiz summon the Witch King, uh, the Worm Lord and company. Likewise, the Alliance player would move to Lyung or the Kingdom of Ula to recruit the units there, as well as sending units to reinforce Lojar at the southern portion of the map. It’s not a game breaker, just a nitpick.

”There is but one Lord of Nisshar, and he does not share power.”

Final Result

In the end, if you want a good fantasy wargame for two players; you will not go wrong if you print this bad boy up and play it.

Final rating: 7/10

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The Maverick — 2006-03-01T11:46:26+00:00

Box back, larger scan

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The Maverick — 2006-03-01T11:45:25+00:00

Box cover, larger scan

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The Maverick — 2006-03-01T11:08:38+00:00

Rules Booklet

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Red Dragon — 2006-01-13T07:32:40+00:00

The great dragon from the Demonlord's inner kingdom

Thread: Mini's version

Tisander — 2005-05-18T03:14:40+00:00

I am currently painting/making mini's for this game.(Including a dragon made from dinosaur parts). I am using all plastic and the bits are looking pretty good if I do say so myself. Ill post pics when Im done.

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The Maverick — 2005-02-20T15:21:56+00:00

Sample counters

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dstephens — 2004-07-07T10:21:02+00:00

Units

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dstephens — 2004-07-07T10:20:54+00:00

Mapboard

Thread: Re:Counter Scan Needed

The Maverick — 2004-06-25T15:13:26+00:00

Thought I should update this - the scan was received quite a while back. Thanks to all who offered to help!

Thread: Re:Counter Scan Needed

wtrollkin2000 — 2004-02-29T02:11:05+00:00

Hey Mav given that you've earned alot more geekgold that the rest of us how about offering some for it? I' broke and could sure use more!

Thread: Counter Scan Needed

The Maverick — 2004-02-29T00:24:49+00:00

I am putting together a website, authorized by the current copyrightholder for the Dwarfstar game line, which will offer free downloads of most of the Dwarfstar games. I am trying to get a high resolution scan of an unpunched Demonlord counter sheet for use on the website. Please e-mail me if you can be of assistance. Thanks!

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wtrollkin2000 — 2002-08-18T05:14:05+00:00

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wtrollkin2000 — 2002-08-18T05:14:03+00:00