Game: Siena

Thread: Re: did the English rules destroy this game?

cymric — 2008-10-14T11:42:54+00:00

I did not care much for this game; despite being clever in its use of a painting it just felt artificial and very contrived, and from some point onwards it reminded me uncomfortably of the Game of Goose. My girlfriend Had To Have™ this game after she saw the huge demo boards at Spiel 2005, and was sorely disappointed these did not come with the tiny box.

Did the rules destroy this game...? I don't think so, not completely, in any case. They were tough to digest, true, but the only confusing part was the beginning where you must purchase cards. After that the rules got better.

Thread: Re: did the English rules destroy this game?

caradoc — 2008-10-14T11:19:14+00:00

There's a better set of rules for download from the Z-Man Games website (on the Siena page).

This game is awesome - long and difficult to get into first game, but just a very different experience. This is not a game I will play regularly - but I am very happy to have it in my collection because it is a well crafted and strangely interesting game. If you do give this one a shot - take the time to savour it like a fine wine

Cheers,

Giles.

Thread: Re: did the English rules destroy this game?

Rokkr — 2008-10-14T11:18:36+00:00

I love the game, but it's insanely difficult to grasp initially. It's not really the rules fault though. It's just got many tough concepts to grasp.
I learned the game with two people who'd played before and I still had a rough time wrapping my head around the rules.

Thread: Re: did the English rules destroy this game?

masdero — 2008-10-14T11:10:39+00:00

Foreword: I like this game.

Problems: (original) rulebook structure and wording, bad finishing on cards (printer's and not author's fault), simple graphics on the board.

Solution: read Zman games or my summary before reading the manual; use card sleeves for cards (but you *always* and *already* protect every game you own, don't you?); the board is not worse than many spartan boards of other games (take augsburg 1520 for example).

Thread: Re: Z-man edition

masdero — 2008-10-14T11:05:19+00:00

may be he refers to the card finishing.

just use some plastic sleeves to protect them.

Thread: Re: Complainers don't know what they are talking about!!!

masdero — 2008-10-14T11:03:48+00:00

papini wrote:
I need to say something about the rules and the cards of my game.

The rules are not good, I agree. I've finished the game in April 2005 and I wanted to present it in Essen in the next October. I had a short time, I prepared the rules by myself, and, unfortunately, I didn’t make any NEW players read them. I mean, only my friends, which had already played the game, read the rules. Probably, NEW players could have complained about them.

The cards are bad, but this fault is not mine. The production factory (a famous german production factory) had the idea to utilize a new supplier for the cards, giving me this bad result.

I’m happy you enjoy the game and I’m sorry for the players which don’t appreciate it.

All the best

Mario Papini

Mario the game is great. As often happens with every game, someone appreciates it, someone prefers another one.

So it is normal, do not worry.

Thread: Re: Using an Inn Card

BugLaden — 2008-08-22T20:24:16+00:00

To further clarify this question

a) Does Calandrino have to be within 3 movement spaces (or more using other movement points) of the Inn in order to take advantage of the Inn card?

Or

b) Can I just play the Inn card and the beggar moves counter-clockwise to the inn no matter where he is, ignoring movement points.

I'm assuming B.

Thread: Re: Kingmaker issue.

the majestic moose — 2008-07-12T08:40:57+00:00

fellonmyhead wrote:
I'm confused; I always thought the play order was set by the rules and not by the players.

For auctions, yeah. For the card-playing part, the +0 player chooses which player will go first, then it goes in initiative order from there, wrapping around if necessary. Or, as the middle of page three puts it:

a) The player whose pawn is located on the +0 space of the Initiative Chart, chooses who’s the first player during this phase.

c) At the end of the first player’s turn, the other players will take their turn according to the increasing order of the Initiative Chart until all players have taken their turn. If, after the player whose pawn is on the highest space of the Initiative Chart has taken a turn, the player whose pawn is on the lowest space of the Initiative Chart has not taken his/her turn, he/she will now take his/her turn. And if the next player on the track did not have a turn, he/she will get one after the previous player is done with his/her turn. Remember, all players must have a turn.

locusshifter wrote:
Experience with the game eliminates these situations, IMHO.

Interesting. How does that work? With experienced players, are those last one or two seven-to-nine-point scoring opportunities unlikely to change the winner? Or are you saying there's rarely more than one player with enough money to be able to grab them? Or conversely, that even the player with the least money usually has enough to grab them for himself/herself, becoming the winner and not a kingmaker?

In the game you'll pay with the money that you have and all the pretty girls will go away anyway, completely satisfied with you.

I guessed that. We had someone get cleaned out by two of them. We let him pay his last 13 florins and call it good.

Thread: Re: Kingmaker issue.

locusshifter — 2008-07-11T14:37:15+00:00

Experience with the game eliminates these situations, IMHO.

We had an issue wtih courteseans when we first played. We actually "broke" the game. Here is a copy of the geekmails between the designer and myself:

Subject: Re: Courtesans
locusshifter wrote:
Mario,

We were at a gaming convention this weekend and had a chance to learn and play Siena twice; once with 4 and once with 5. The 4 player game was awesome. The 5 player game had one issue; at one point we had 18 Courtesans on the board (Zev was laughing his butt off about that), and no one had enough money to pay 10 each for all the courtesans. In this case, once a player has to stop at the inn, what does one do if you cannot pay for all the courtesans?

Fantastic game, thank you ahead of time,

Dave Kudzma

Dear Dave

this is the best opportunity that you may have. Not only in my game but also in your life. Being with a woman who wants you, and having not much money with you.
So you can satisfy her paying less.
In the game you'll pay with the money that you have and all the pretty girls will go away anyway, completely satisfied with you.

Have fun with them.

Mario

This, however, NEVER happened again. Actually, the more we play the more diverse the game becomes.

Thread: Re: Kingmaker issue.

fellonmyhead — 2008-07-11T14:19:08+00:00

I'm confused; I always thought the play order was set by the rules and not by the players.

Thread: Kingmaker issue.

the majestic moose — 2008-07-11T13:28:04+00:00

Just played a five-player game of Siena. The game owner, Linus, had tried to learn the rules and had produced handwritten rephrasings, but none of us, including him, had ever played the game.

We got most of the rules correct. Most of us tried to become merchants and then bankers as quickly as possible, selling goods once or maybe twice per level. (We didn't know about taking a pay cut for senesi.) Linus was last to be promoted, and usually had the fewest florins.

After three hours we had all but one of the artists hired, five stories of the tower built, most of us had contributed to the Duomo, and we'd played probably something like nine rounds. We all had in the range of say 15-35 florins by this point.

Kate: "If you let me go first, I'll end the game."
Me: "This'll be the last round no matter who starts."
Linus: "Okay, Kate, you can go first."

Kate auctions Ambrogio and gets him for about 35. Game over.
Meanwhile I'm sitting in Palazzo Tolomei with 32 florins and a bricklayer, plus sufficient movement points. I would have won by 2. Instead I ended up in fourth, ahead of Linus.

I didn't mind the game's learning curve at all, but I am a bit irritated by the "the player who doesn't have enough money to earn any more VP gets to choose which other player will earn them" rule. Suppose we'd had six levels built and several players had 60 florins? This must have happened to people.

Thread: Re: How is it with two?

Osirus — 2008-06-19T05:56:56+00:00

I realize this is an ancient thread, but having just played with two, I figured I'd answer:

Two players is useful to learn the rules, because if your first game of Siena consists of five new players, it will take forever. Unfortunately, with only two players, much of the allure of the game (in terms of interesting jockeying for position and deciding when to be the first or last merchant) seems non-present. So I'd say play it with two players to learn or teach it, but then stick to larger games -- presuming you've got the time.

Thread: Re: Take it easy; take a senesi

Paul Mackie — 2008-04-16T08:10:39+00:00

Wait a minute... you played this game on purpose?

Ooh - harsh!
My group and I are aware of the negative criticism around for this game, and we even share some/much of the sentiment.
Mechanically, yes, there's a lot here that is clunky, fiddly, over-engineered, and confusing - and it's well recognised that the original English rules translation leaves a lot to be desired.
But where this game might score a 4 or below on mechanics/ease of use, etc., for our group at least, it scores a 7, 8 or even 9 on theme and this is why we like playing it. Not that often mind you (our last game was back in Aug 07), but if you have a group that can be somewhat forgiving on mechanics and are prepared to immerse themselves in the rich subject matter, you can get still get a good gaming experience here.
It's all a subjective thing of course...

Thread: Re: Take it easy; take a senesi

generalpf — 2008-04-15T14:21:10+00:00

Wait a minute... you played this game on purpose?

Thread: Take it easy; take a senesi

Paul Mackie — 2008-04-15T13:29:12+00:00

This game has provided a fascinating experience every time it’s been played and although it’s been a while since this has seen the light of day it was greeted with enthusiasm tonight. We played with a full compliment of five players, which was going to make for some tight competition on the sale of goods and a diversity of strategies…

Pat and Brad were the first to make the leap from Peasant to Merchant, and I followed soon after. I think the three of us were particularly keen to get our hands on as many senesi cards as quickly as possible. Pat kept complaining about his draws - even paying $15 to take a choice of two “1″s. I rarely take these types of complaints seriously, but after he’d taken four of these he chose to show us his hand - yes indeed - all 1s! Bummer for him.

Alex and Neil chose to hang back as Peasants for a bit longer and take advantage of the higher turn-over goods trading. In fact, Alex stayed a Peasant for maybe more than half of the game, at one stage accumulating over $250 in personal wealth! This was with the help of a Mule card on a double-production of corn, wine and oil all at once on the same turn.
For me, life as a Merchant was a bitter-sweet affair; more bitter than sweet. Perhaps I left my wealth level just slightly too high, because I was struggling to get the good income-generating cloth and spice cards. On the few occasions that I did, players moving before me (usually Neil) would trip and reset the commodity tracks, denying me the income opportunities each turn! So I shifted to the Firenze road and used this a few times, but even this was hard work. It also raised a point of controversy: Does road income qualify for senesi cards? We eventually decided that it did, although we think we never played this in any of our previous playings. I ended up scoring a few senesi 2s and 3s from this (sweet), but it was along with wheel-spinning while all the other players progressed comfortably towards Bankership (bitter). I was left as the last Merchant, and to make matters worse I was suckered into spending $26 on a value-1 artista card that I bid sight-unseen on (even more bitter).

I finally managed to jump into Banker world with two turns left to spare - not enough, unfortunately, to get a token into the tower. Inn courtesans stymied my movement, and Pat’s driving of two Calandrinos wound down my cash enough to make building an impossibility for me. I did, however, have enough to outbid everyone on Alex’s last turn of an artista card - a more rewarding value-4 for this. It even left me enough to finish in first position on remaining cash, hence another +2 points.

But overall, while Siena remains an intriguing and richly-themed game, it is certainly hard to play well, especially with 5 players mixing it up. Extra evidence of this is Brad winning (by a whisker!), but unable to say why (ie; unable to explain whatever it was he did consistently that was better than anyone else). And that’s a reflection on the game, by the way, not Brad.
About 30 mins rules and setup, although with much rules explanation embedded in game play. 182 mins game time.
Results: Brad (red): 48 (and the highest level in the tower). Pat (blue): 48. Neil M. (orange): 45. Paul (green): 42. Alex (yellow): 41.

(Originally posted in The Mine Shaft Gap.)

Thread: Re: Z-man edition

greengow — 2007-12-28T07:29:30+00:00

What do you mean by "better"? In comparison to what?

The components are fine. The board is beautiful. Only the cards are a bit flimsy. Other than that the game is beautiful having the old fresco's style and atmosphere. And the theme fits in perfectly.

No need to compare it. Just get it and play it.

Thread: Z-man edition

tiger,tiger — 2007-12-28T02:53:22+00:00

Is the Zman edition different from the original? Are the components any better?

Image

Rokkr — 2007-12-13T21:39:14+00:00

player aid card

Image

Rokkr — 2007-12-13T21:38:02+00:00

main deck cards

Image

Rokkr — 2007-12-13T21:36:40+00:00

senesi cards

Image

Rokkr — 2007-12-13T21:34:54+00:00

artist cards

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Rokkr — 2007-12-13T21:32:38+00:00

fate cards

Thread: Re: Exactly how BIG is the board?

Nuclear Wedgie — 2007-11-06T23:38:32+00:00

Thanks Steve!

That's way smaller than I was guessing - about half the size of Ticket to Ride or Power Grid. We have limited table space at the cafe where my gang meets, so I have to be careful.

- Vera

Thread: Re: Exactly how BIG is the board?

fastfingers — 2007-11-06T00:53:01+00:00

33 and 1/8 inches
by
11 and 1/4 inches

- Steve

Thread: Re: Exactly how BIG is the board?

voynix — 2007-11-06T00:48:49+00:00

The map is actually not that big. It just looks bigger than it is because it is long and narrow. By the way, Siena is an interesting game. Though it isn't my favorite game in the world, I do enjoy it.

Thread: Re: Exactly how BIG is the board?

generalpf — 2007-11-06T00:14:03+00:00

It's not too big to fit in the garbage, I'll tell you that much.

Thread: Exactly how BIG is the board?

Nuclear Wedgie — 2007-11-06T00:10:55+00:00

Wow, I'm amazed at the range of opinions on this game! I dig controversial games, and I really dig games with pretty boards. But it's hard to judge he size of the board from the pictures - some people say it's big, others say it's not so big. Can anyone break out a tape measure and settle the score for me?

Not that size is an issue for me or anything, I just want to know if it will fit on my table =)

Tanx! - Vera

Image

GabryBe — 2007-11-05T17:33:33+00:00

Playing with the Author at "Amici Ludici Game Day" Italy

Thread: Re: Banker's movement and product cubes

Tsaar — 2007-10-11T20:21:01+00:00

papini wrote:
No, if you utilize the upper side of any card, the lower side is ignored, and viceversa.

Mario Papini

Aaah, that makes sense.
Thanks for your commitment!

Thread: Re: Banker's movement and product cubes

papini — 2007-10-11T18:08:31+00:00

No, if you utilize the upper side of any card, the lower side is ignored, and viceversa.

Mario Papini

Thread: Re: Banker's movement and product cubes

Zman — 2007-10-04T21:15:29+00:00

Tsaar wrote:
If a banker plays a product-card for its movement points, are the cubes still added to their product tracks (if there are still peasants and merchants in the game)?

***Yes. According to memory.

Zev Shlasinger, President
Z-Man Games, Inc.
www.zmangames.com

Thread: Banker's movement and product cubes

Tsaar — 2007-10-04T20:39:35+00:00

If a banker plays a product-card for its movement points, are the cubes still added to their product tracks (if there are still peasants and merchants in the game)?

Image

otscotty — 2007-09-23T14:59:54+00:00

Game Room Art - Framed Siena

Thread: Re: Game Room Art - Framed Siena

Great Dane — 2007-09-22T19:09:57+00:00

Absolutely the best use for it.
Great idea!

Thread: Game Room Art - Framed Siena

otscotty — 2007-09-22T18:57:26+00:00

Last year, my wife began converting our guest bedroom into a game room. We've done work as we've been able to afford it. We've painted and put in a new set of bookshelves. We'll need more shelf space and a new table. In the meantime, my wife has been working on game-related artwork. We picked up Siena when it was on sale. I think the frame my wife picked out is perfect. She's working on a couple of original pieces as well. I'll post them when they are completed. Please feel free to post your game related artwork here as well.

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Thread: Re: Siena cards - removal from the game

fellonmyhead — 2007-09-14T05:24:02+00:00

One use only, then removed from the game regardless of what they were used for.

Thread: Re: Siena cards - removal from the game

coolpapa — 2007-09-14T05:00:29+00:00

It's been a while since I've played, but I think the obvious answer is in fact that the asterisk cards are so good that there's no way you'd use them just for movement. Hence I don't think it's really an issue. I would say, though, that they do get tossed out of the game once they're used, no matter what the purpose is. There's no mechanism in place for putting them back into circulation so that seems to be the only response.

Thread: Siena cards - removal from the game

batdog — 2007-09-14T04:44:24+00:00

Seems like I've come late to the party on this game but as my girlfriend is doing a module for her degree on 13th Century art in Siena, Florence and Padua, I thought it may come in useful for her studies .

One rule question: I understand that cards with an asterisk are removed from the game after use. However, as each card has two uses (movement points or action) does the removal of the card apply to either use. Maybe I'm too much in Twilight Struggle mode at the moment (Op points v Event) to see the obvious answer.

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klema — 2007-09-04T14:27:58+00:00

Thread: Reprise

Paul Mackie — 2007-08-30T12:47:43+00:00

A second helping of Siena following last weeks’ experience, with the same five players sufficiently primed to get the most out of this game.
However, I have to report that I was disappointed with my performance overall in this session. I repeated many of my mistakes from last week, and even made a few new ones. One was buying too many Banker cards early in the game - although they may have paid off eventually, due to hand limit restrictions they cut down my flexibility (or at least, perceived flexibility - I never took advantage of the simple rule that you can just discard down if required).

As a merchant I got stuck in the same rut I did last week, as did Brian, of too many turns failing to earn income, points, or pick up good cards. At the time this didn’t seem so bad since all other players also seemed to be moving slowly and not picking up Senesi cards. But while everyone else was a merchant, and eventually banker, Brad stayed a peasant and raced around the money track, even crossing into the 200s. He had no point-scoring Senesi cards, but seemed well-positioned to pick up a bus-load of points whenever he chose to cross into the banker phase. He also managed to score the two “girlfriend” cards, and happily loaded up the inn with Courtesans for the first of us bold enough to cross the banker line. This was Alex, who bit the bullet for $80 to be the first around the city circle. In retrospect a good move.

By the time I moved up to the banker track it was probably too late already, and even worse for Brian who was one turn behind. Critically, I ended up with no tokens in the tower. My last turn ended in the inn, and despite the justified protests from Pat I put another artist work up for auction. The thinking was that unless this was a good card (ie., better than 3) then Brad wouldn’t bother bidding very high on it and I would scrape in a few extra points. It turned out to be a 6, which of course he was going to take and therefore move himself from 3rd to equal 2nd position overall. Damn.

3 mins rules and setup; 130 mins game time.
Results: Alex (yellow): 53. Pat (blue): 49. Brad (red): 49. Paul (orange): 40. Brian (green): 35.

Ratings: Pat rates 5 or 6 for gameplay, but theme pushes it to 7. Paul: 7. Brian and Alex: 7.5. Brad: 6.5.

(Originally posted in The Mine Shaft Gap. Pics by Mijjy.)

Edit: Pics added 1.9.2007

Thread: Rich peasants, poor bankers

Paul Mackie — 2007-08-23T12:54:10+00:00

Pat had been lugging this one in his games bag for weeks now, and it had been tempting me for some time. The opportunity finally arose tonight, and with little resistance the suggestion of Siena was ratified and the box opened (several times in fact - this one has a reproducible and robust box-fart).

Siena has a mixed reputation, and it’s certainly true that on the first playing or so that it comes over as kind of strange. It has much “chrome” - those quirky, individualised rules that apply to certain cards or spaces on the board. To ease some of the quirky rules burden, Pat has produced a player aid using Excel, a task that apparently took him five hours to get right.

I prefer to think of Siena as “richly themed”, and the designer is to be applauded for making such an original game concept work as well as it does. Although I’ve played this only about 3 times is the past 12 months or so, I’ve always enjoyed it, possibly more with each playing.
Unless you’re miles in the lead or way behind, it’s difficult to know how well you’re doing compared to your opponents, and this was certainly true in this instance. After an inscrutable first few turns, I thought I was actually doing quite well in the Peasant phase. This carried through to the Merchant phase, which I jumped into quickly after Pat had crossed over. I got a good result from spice sales - one each turn for a brief period - and my Senesi card collection began to grow. Unfortunately these were mostly “1″s, but I ended up with a couple of “4″s in there too.

Then things ground to a halt, with action on the spice track either shutting down completely, or all the goodness being creamed off by Brian and Pat to leave me nothing for several turns in a row. Brad may have crossed over into Banker phase by this time, while Alex stayed a Peasant (an increasingly rich one), but wasn’t contributing to the spice track. Once both Pat and Brad were on the Banker circuit, I too made the leap on the first opportunity I could, eschewing another shot at a Senesi card in favour of the chance at maybe two contributions to the tower before the game ended. In fact, I only ever got to place one token in the tower.

Brian jumped into the Banker track not long after me, but Alex held his ground as a Peasant for as long as he could, monopolising the outputs of peasant income, and growing his wealth far in excess of anyone else’s - it seemed that he was in the range of 100-180 for much of the game. I think it was only when Brian hopped from Merchant to Banker that Alex decided to promote himself, and then he also moved into Banker almost immediately. As he picked off more Senesi and Artist cards, then finished off the tower, I thought he might have caught as all by surprise and jumped right into the winning position. Almost - this honour was retained instead by Pat, whose experience and familiarity with Siena gave him the edge. Al remarked later that he may have mis-timed his promotion by one turn (ie., too late).

Still, it was rewarding that the final scores were quite close, and for me at least this was a satisfying game experience overall.
28 mins rules and setup; 140 mins game time.
Results: Pat (blue): 51. Alex (yellow): 49. Paul (orange): 47. Brian (green): 43. Brad (red): 39.

My rating: 7/10.

(Originally posted in The Mine Shaft Gap. Pic by Mijjy.)

Thread: Re: Complainers don't know what they are talking about!!!

greengow — 2007-08-20T14:38:53+00:00

Wow, a comment from the designer. I feel honored.

I have to say, that the rules were not all that bad. I think it just take 2 or 3 times to go through them. You just don't want to do it, while people are sitting at the table ready to play.

The way I usually learn the game is not only through reading the rules, but also through actually going through the motions of the game by myself, to get a feel for the game. Sort of like playing with 4 players that aren't there. Then anything that didn't seem clear in the rules, makes sense as you're doing the steps (turns). It helps. Plus it gives you a much better preparation for explaining the game, because you already "played" it.

There are plenty of games that deal with producing resources, spending them and moving up in life (in the game). But this one is the one that grabs me most. I think it's the fresco that makes it for me. Great idea!

Thread: Re: Complainers don't know what they are talking about!!!

papini — 2007-08-18T13:13:00+00:00

I need to say something about the rules and the cards of my game.

The rules are not good, I agree. I've finished the game in April 2005 and I wanted to present it in Essen in the next October. I had a short time, I prepared the rules by myself, and, unfortunately, I didn’t make any NEW players read them. I mean, only my friends, which had already played the game, read the rules. Probably, NEW players could have complained about them.

The cards are bad, but this fault is not mine. The production factory (a famous german production factory) had the idea to utilize a new supplier for the cards, giving me this bad result.

I’m happy you enjoy the game and I’m sorry for the players which don’t appreciate it.

All the best

Mario Papini

Thread: Re: The Greatest gaming injustice of all time?

the_grip — 2007-08-18T05:54:39+00:00

i love this game. It is one of the undiscovered gems out there that really deserves more attention.

i did find the rules confusing, however. Since they are translated, they are not necessarily organized in an "English" way of thinking. i needed many clarifications and aids to get them down, but now i love it.

Thread: Re: Complainers don't know what they are talking about!!!

kvn299 — 2007-08-03T17:00:46+00:00

verandi wrote:
This game sucks. Yep, I'm one of those meritless haters. I love it!

I have it on good word that this man is insane. Completely. Take ANYTHING he says with a huge grain of salt.

Thread: Re: Complainers don't know what they are talking about!!!

BFoy — 2007-08-03T16:05:03+00:00

greengow wrote:
Yes, Scott, I'm that excited about the game!!! <-- was that enough exclamation points? I can't tell...

I know there are people who don't like the game. And I knew that comments such as yours would be written. That's what the forum is for. Yet, I don't think I've misplaced or overused any exclamation points or other types of punctuations nonetheless. Some excitement levels just require it.

I'm Sorry to hear, you don't like the game. I love it.

I was just trying to contradict all the "nay" sayers about the game and hope that people who haven't played it yet, give it a try and enjoy it, because the game is certainly worth the excitement.

This is one of those games with a large upside and a large downside. The game is very innovative, very pretty and it has several interesting strategies. But it is also clunky and not very deep. Some people will be inspired by what the game does well and not notice what the game doesn't do well. The game's problems will ruin it for others. I have friends who really like this game. I will play it but I am ambivalent towards it.

Thread: Re: Complainers don't know what they are talking about!!!

greengow — 2007-08-03T15:20:21+00:00

Yes, Scott, I'm that excited about the game!!! <-- was that enough exclamation points? I can't tell...

I know there are people who don't like the game. And I knew that comments such as yours would be written. That's what the forum is for. Yet, I don't think I've misplaced or overused any exclamation points or other types of punctuations nonetheless. Some excitement levels just require it.

I'm Sorry to hear, you don't like the game. I love it.

I was just trying to contradict all the "nay" sayers about the game and hope that people who haven't played it yet, give it a try and enjoy it, because the game is certainly worth the excitement.

Thread: Re: Complainers don't know what they are talking about!!!

verandi — 2007-08-03T15:19:51+00:00

This game sucks. Yep, I'm one of those meritless haters. I love it!

Thread: Re: Complainers don't know what they are talking about!!!

Scott Firestone IV — 2007-08-03T14:35:47+00:00

First: I don't trust anyone who uses that many exclamation points and question marks. What are you hiding? Are you really that excited?

Second: Complainers about the game have no merit!!! Don't you think that's overstating things a bit? I mean, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but Mike Siggins has rated nearly 900 games and hates this one. I'm pretty sure his opinion has merit and weight, even if you disagree with it.

Third: Superfluous exclamation points and a recommendation from a Geek of the Week notwithstanding, this game sucks. But I'm glad you enjoy it.

Thread: Re: Complainers don't know what they are talking about!!!

locusshifter — 2007-08-03T14:12:09+00:00

I've been singing this game's praises for years.

I also know for a fact that our current Geek of the Week Kevin Wood loves it too.

Thread: Complainers don't know what they are talking about!!!

greengow — 2007-08-03T13:23:24+00:00

I don't know... I may be a little excited here, but here it goes.

So I was apprehansive... I was afraid... I wasn't sure... what about?? Whether I should crack this game open. I mean I've had it now for some 2 months sitting and staring at me in shrink wrap and I wasn't sure if I should try it. I mean, what if I don't like it???? I mean, there were so many complaints about the game from other people, such as:

- the rules are bad
- the game drags on
- it's not interesting enough
- the board is too big

I was like, oh no, this game can be a disaster!!!

Well, yesterday I went through everything I could read about the game. Plus, I read and re-read the rules. What's more, I even translated the re-worked rules from German to Polish for the people I wanted to play with. I even translated the "Peasant's Story" posted on BGG. More, I went and researched the actual fresco's history and pictures and life story of the painter. And viewed many pictures of Siena.

So you ask, why?? Why didn't you just try the game??

Well, for one thing I was mentally preparing myself. For another, I wanted to get to know the game really well before I opened it.

And guess what??!!!....

THIS GAME IS AWESOME!!!!!!

I looked at the board and I fell in love!!!!!!! Weird, no? I mean, I've seen the fresco on so many pictures before. Yet, when I saw the fresco on the board... magic, I tell you!!!

Then I grabbed the rules in the box and read through them. Ok, so I'm not Einstein, but these rules are just fine!!!! Reading through them couple times cleared up everything. I can't understand why people are saying the rules are incomprehensible and leave the game!!!

And what's this about the game not being interesting?? Are people serious??? This games theme is VERY, VERY well tied to the game!!! What I love about it most is that the final winning points are nothing if you don't get to the final stage, meaning you have really go through "life" of the board game stages, mimicking the life back in the days. This is awesome!!! The atmosphere you get out of the game is unbelievable!!

The game drags on??? Does everything else in your life come easy??? No?? Well that is why this game portrays closely life back in the days. Nothing comes easy and you have to work hard and all this takes time!!! But being submerged in all of this doesn't even make you notice the time flying by!!

And what's this about the board being huge??? Has anyone actually opened the box??? The board is tiny!!!! In comparison to so many other board games out there. Did you open Amun-Re recently?? Or Power Grid?? Or Aladdin's Dragons??? Those boards are much bigger than Siena. I was almost disappointed that Siena has such a tiny board, because I love the fresco.

Ok, so I'm done. But I tell you one thing. Complainers about the game have no merit!!! Try the game!! Dive right in it!! You will love it!!
I love it. This is my favorite game now after Ys. It's the whole package together with theme, history and beauty that makes Siena a really great game!!!

I recommend it to anyone, beginners or not!!!!

Thread: Re: The Greatest gaming injustice of all time?

Moti — 2007-06-11T23:49:54+00:00

You know what they say, if you're in a hole stop digging! But I think I'm only upto my chin yet, so hand me that spade.;-)

To reply to John Briers' comment first.
John, all the games I've quote through out this thread, are games I love, and I've only used them as examples. It is not my intention to put down any game.
I may not be correct, but it is my understanding that a game is said to be strategic when you can stick to or follow one plan or road pretty well from the start, and more or less keep to it. Hence in PR I decide on being a corn farmer if I can, and follow that plan as best as I can. Or in PoF, if I get my first jester go for the jester strategy. I may be buffeted but I can more or less stick to my plan.
I take it to mean that when a game is tactical, you're having to follow and react to events all the time. In PoF( one of my favorite games) I don't feel I'm having to react very much at all, in fact many people feel it's rather a solitaire game. Ditto with PR, You almost always know what role you need next, and probably what role every body else is going to take, so you follow your plan and hope it pays in the end.In Siena when played against equal experienced players( as all these games are at their best!)It is more difficult to follow through a strategy, and you are having to react to other players actions.
You put cubes on a track, next player could take the befit and you loose out. The card sales and drafts the same you are always reacting to what people take. The poorest player decides on start player each turn. You could be first you could be last each turn, and you have to react accordingly.
I could go on, but what I'm not saying is that Sienna is better than PoF or PR ( though I would rate it higher than Notre Dame)it is not. But has it got more tactics and less strategy? I think so.

Angelo, quality of components.
Agreed, cards very poor, can be got over with lamination,sleeves etc.
But I buy a game for its game play. The quality is secondary. If some one wrote a really great book, and the cheapskate publisher printed it with weak materials so that after 2 or 3 readings it would look tatty on your shelf, would you pass it by. Yes I mouth obscenities under my breath about the quality of the cards, but thank M Papini for creating a good gaming experience.
No game when I play it do I feel I'm in the period it is set. But considering you are playing on a painting depicting Siena,this must come closest. Out of interest, which game that you play makes you feel you right there where it set?

And last but certainly not least, Ben.
I once read a review on the geek concerning the game BUS and why it had such poor reviews. The author who liked the game came to the conclusion that the people seemed to play it as if it was a simple game and so missed the nuances. Well, I have to confess that I too struggled with bus. But having read the review/session I begun to understand what he was getting at.
I think that applies in bucket loads to Siena.
No one in our group would be allowed to waltz round the Track in the Town. They'd be dragged kicking and screaming into the Inn, made to pay up for a couple of girls. If they're unlucky some one will deposit the beggar in there aswell, not only slow them up but take another 20 F. Lets see how much they can bid for an artist then! I again say that a lot of the major points are to be had from the artists. If your finishing with any money, you'll have been inefficient.

I think this game suffered from group think right at the start of its life, I think it became the ugly duckling, and it became fashionable to knock it often by people who had not played it. I think the rules issue was a good excuse, they're not good, but they're not that bad.
On the other hand if you have played it, given it the attention it deserves, and you still don,t like it, Then you have my respect.

thanks guys
joe

Thread: Re: The Greatest gaming injustice of all time?

Andy Parsons — 2007-06-11T20:37:01+00:00

Moti wrote:
I've probably gone over the top haven't I Andy?

Not at all. A bravura defence of a game you're obviously passionate about.

I'll just pick up on one point because I don't own a copy of the game, the memory is fading, and I really can't face reading those rules again. It's about game length. Now, I'm not one of those people who gets a nose bleed if a game goes over sixty minutes. I've enjoyed seven, eight, nine hour sessions of a single game. What I do crave in a longer game is a tactical and strategic depth that I don't demand of a one hour game. You mentioned Indonesia and Age of Steam as being of similar length to Siena and both have the capacity to keep me interested over 2-3 hours. You've found a depth in Siena that me and John Brier and a few others just haven't. That's the nub of it really (oh, and those awful rules).

Thread: Re: The Greatest gaming injustice of all time?

verandi — 2007-06-11T13:44:10+00:00

Moti wrote:

2.tactical decisions (what card to play, where to move to) straightforward and uninteresting;
Really ? compared to Notre Dame, puerto Rico, PF which I also have and like,Siena has them beat for tactics.

I'm sorry, WHAT?

Thread: Re: The Greatest gaming injustice of all time?

Snooze_uk — 2007-06-11T13:31:14+00:00

Well - we've only played a handful of times now (and all 5p, btw), so I will happily bow down to superior experience.

We found that in all of our games, after everyone had done a single lap of the city, we all had enough money left to build one of the remaining floors of the tower, and enough to pay to get all the way round there in one go - some people even doing virtually a complete lap in one turn just to get in there and build.
Since we all had enough to build at the tower, it made sense to do so (appears to be best VP return). As a result the tower got built in just a couple of turns after the first lap or so was finished.

Thread: Re: The Greatest gaming injustice of all time?

Lajos — 2007-06-11T10:19:10+00:00

Joe,

I agree with everything you wrote in your review and your replies in this thread.

What I keep wondering about, however, is why everyone is complaining about the rulebook. I had no problem with it whatsoever. It may not be the best written rulebook ever, but I've seen far, far worse.

(edit: spelling)

Thread: Re: The Greatest gaming injustice of all time?

Moti — 2007-06-11T08:02:56+00:00

Thats interesting Ben.
In our games its in the final stages where the game comes into its own, and you get the most player interaction. We often finish the game with almost every one on under 15 florins.Money is no good to you at the end.
Are you bidding for Artists? They're big points, and I'll often bid upto 80F for a 6 or 7 point artist. It lowers my cash amount, and then I don't have to donate so much when I get to the church for more VP's. Of course then you may need it to build at the tower, so its a very tight balancing act, specially if every one in the game knows the value of stuff.Its a bit like Princes of florence. Until every one you play with knows the value of jesters etc the game can be a bit disappointing.
I often build my money upto140-150, and I still never seem to have enough.

I play with pals who know the game well, and know all the tricks now, so the games are always quite tense...and terribly funny at times.

joe

Thread: Re: The Greatest gaming injustice of all time?

Snooze_uk — 2007-06-10T23:35:53+00:00

I like Siena, and especially enjoy the first two sections of the game. It's the third section (as bankers) that didn't seem to go quite right - it seems there's too much money available by then so that people can bypass all the interesting stuff and just plough through a full tower build in a matter of a few turns. So the game felt like it ended really suddenly.

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barbate — 2006-11-03T19:24:45+00:00

Piazza del Campo & Torre del Mangia /102m/ and The Game... I like Toscana...

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henk.rolleman — 2006-11-01T20:35:50+00:00