Game: Samurai Swords

Thread: Re: Risk: Japan

jkblum — 2008-08-13T21:44:04+00:00

Now that you and your group have some 'practice', it'll take less time. At first my group took about five hours, but now it's about half of that.

Thread: Re: Risk: Japan

_Kael_ — 2008-08-12T12:12:31+00:00

As I said here, Shogun takes the best from both Axis & Allies and Risk and combines it in a better game: the sum of Shogun is greater than it's A&A/Risk parts.

We normally try to gather 19:30/ 19:45, so we start at 20:00-20:15. Game normally lasts to 0:00-2:00 so that's a solid 4-6 hours. But we do finish it. I recommend playing with 5 because with 5 the game will, on average, be shorter than when played with 4, due to the player-eliminated effects.

Thread: Re: Victory Point Shogun session II

Seth_Logan — 2008-08-11T06:26:18+00:00

Viny wrote:
PS: I will be playing your variant this weekend as i want a fun game but not too long and yours seem to cut it even shorter than the Quick Game.

And, how did it work out for you and your group? How many rounds did it take you to play, and how much time?

Thread: Victory Point Shogun Session III

Seth_Logan — 2008-08-10T16:22:32+00:00

On Saturday we played our third game of Victory Point Shogun. A system designed to make the game faster, with increased tension as the experience of the Daimyo’s progress.

Victory Point Shogun variant: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/287256

1st round (12 armies)
With 4 players in a game of Shogun there is a lot of room to maneuver with your Daimyo’s. To some degree they are (or should be) safer from sudden attacks by enemy Daimyo’s. With this in mind the Blue player decided to spread out his armies wide across the board, one in the north and two on the Western side of Central Japan. Opposite of him the Green player made efforts to claim Shikoku (the smallest Island) and the Eastern part of Central Japan. South Japan was covered by Orange with a 3 army presence in the South of Honshu Island. Surprisingly Kyushu was only covered by one Green army. The stage was set and it looked like Blue would have a tough fight against 3 Purple armies in the North, 2 Green armies in Central Japan, and also trying to cover ground with one of its armies in territory to which 2 Orange armies laid a claim. All players but Purple decided to put all their koku in the Levy Units box, so Purple could claim fourth place with one koku in Take Swords. Green got the third place Sword and that proved critical for the things to come. Blue was first and took the lead but didn’t notice the danger it was placing its armies in. Both the Green and Purple player took matters in their own hands; in the North a Blue army was easily cut off from the rest of the field while in Central Japan, Green placed two of its armies next to one of the remaining Blue Armies. With Green and Purple setting up a potential death trap Blue should have been warned, but he didn’t seem to realize the predicament he was in. Orange in the mean time could have profited from the absence of armies in Kyushu, but he failed to do so, only marginally exploiting the Southern peak of the Honshu Island.

2nd round (12 armies)
With Purple as first player and Green as second, things started to look pretty grim for the Blue player. Of course, for a large part this was his own fault, as he decided to put way to much effort in Levy Units together with the Orange player. The technique of harvesting and bundling your force in the three main armies was invented by the Green in earlier games (see both other session reports, in which he did have a different color) and improved in this game. Like Orange and Blue, Green also Levied a lot of units, but unlike the other two players he managed to cluster them together in one of his main armies at the end of his turns. This gave him a lot of ‘umph’ in this important stage of the battle. But first in line for this second round was the Purple player. Again he resorted to building the Shinano castle as a fall back province for depleted armies. He also had outmaneuvered the Northern Blue army which was pocketed in a corner and could not have escaped even if chance would not have given the first player turn to Purple. Oblivious to any threat this early in the game, Blue had done little do further strengthen his (two) threatened armies with anything that could have helped them. In the North this was understandable since it was a strong army, but the one he had placed opposing 2 Green armies was a sitting duck. Purple made the first attack, deploying 8 archers in two armies against a mere 2 from the blue player. Nonetheless some bad throws weakened the Purple army to such a large degree that it knew it would stand on the side line for at least the following round since it’s armies were decimated (but victorious) and needed to recover. Next up the Green player did the army switch and again the Blue player would have to face an army with a superior first line. The attack was short but fierce and as the smoke cleared the Green player was left victorious. Orange, should have exploited the gap left by the Green player and could have claimed more from the Kyushu Island, than he did. He just didn’t understand the pace of the game, like Blue they still haven’t grown accustomed to the fast and furious play that is inherent in Victory Point Shogun.

3rd round (10 armies)
Loosing 2 armies this early in the game put a big price tag on Blue. But even that did not seem to get through to him. The message was however picked up by the Green and Purple player and even the Orange seemed to have a clue. Unfortunately, due to his earlier loses, Purple was unable to participate in the slaughter, but the Orange and Green were ready. It’s simply unbelievable how Blue underestimated the trouble he was in. While both Orange and Green bid for the Ninja, bought Ronin and tried to gain first place by the Take Swords action, Blue did nothing of the above, even providing a simple defense for his army in the form of a castle, was not taken care off. To make things worse he had not calculated the distance from his own remaining army to one of the Green armies (now experience 2) correctly, which made him a sure shot. He was toast, and Green would be the one to smash him. With a full force of 4 Ronin, first player Sword and the Ninja out of the way due to a level bid with Orange, he approached and annihilated the last Blue army and made a successful claim to the Shogunate

Time: 2 hours and 20 minutes

Points:
Green: 9VP Clan, 6VP Daimyo, -VP fortress, -VP castle & 37 Provinces = 52VP
Purple: -VP Clan, 3VP Daimyo, -VP fortress, 1VP Castle & 16 Provinces = 20VP
Orange: -VP Clan, -VP Daimyo, -VP fortress, -VP Castle & 15 Provinces = 15VP
Blue: -VP Clan, -VP Daimyo, -VP fortress, -VP Castle & 0 Provinces = 0VP

Thread: Re: Victory Point Shogun session II

Seth_Logan — 2008-08-07T15:43:27+00:00

Viny wrote:
How did the daimyo get to experience 3 in round 4?
I dun have the army card with me now, but if i recall correctly, for every successful attack on an enemy, the experience will go up one notch. But it takes several notches to gain 1 experience level right?

Yes, you are correct. In the Variant section of this thread you can read about exactly how this variant works. Normaly you would have 3 turns with experience 1, 2 turns with exp 2, 2 turns with exp. 3 and then hit 4. I took away the third 1 step and the second 3 step too make it more intens (and shorten it just a tad more).

Viny wrote:
And for every round, no matter how many successful attacks a daimyo makes, you can only go up one notch.

This has remained the same in this variant

Viny wrote:
Am i right or have i got the rules wrong?

You were right: as said, I took away the third 1 step and the second 3 step.

Viny wrote:
PS: I will be playing your variant this weekend as i want a fun game but not too long and yours seem to cut it even shorter than the Quick Game.

What a coincidence, we will be playing saturday too. Hope you will write a session report about it to tell us if it worked for you and your friends (be sure to mention how many rounds (not perse time) you spent on the game, that interests me most.

Thread: Re: Victory Point Shogun session II

Viny — 2008-08-07T15:33:46+00:00

How did the daimyo get to experience 3 in round 4?
I dun have the army card with me now, but if i recall correctly, for every successful attack on an enemy, the experience will go up one notch. But it takes several notches to gain 1 experience level right?

And for every round, no matter how many successful attacks a daimyo makes, you can only go up one notch.

Am i right or have i got the rules wrong?

PS: I will be playing your variant this weekend as i want a fun game but not too long and yours seem to cut it even shorter than the Quick Game.

Thanks in advance for the clarification.

Thread: Re: desperately looking for colour rulebook in pdf

ovresmot — 2008-08-06T15:38:12+00:00

I agree the MB rulebook is atrocious, it uses examples of pink player, grey player, pink-stripe player and grey-stripe player. They could not have made it more confusing if they tried. There is a re-write of the rulebook here on the geek in the file section, or look on google, that is a pdf. They don't use all the colors, but it's much better and much clearer.

Thread: Re: Risk: Japan

GROGnads — 2008-08-05T06:08:01+00:00

There ARE somewhat similarities as they BOTH have the 'cards' aspects, and "Collecting Armies" is being performed, while you ought to be playing THIS: Samurai and "Battle" on some 'board', while that would BE with an extremely detailed "Advanced" edition no doubt!

Thread: Re: Risk: Japan

Seth_Logan — 2008-08-04T17:38:46+00:00

jschlickbernd wrote:
... The biggest con with the game that you didn't list (and probably didn't see because you didn't finish) is that the players who start on the edges have a huge advantage over the player(s) who start in the middle...

That hasn't happend in our games, quite the opposite, but that might be because we play a variant that is a lot faster. And we haven't played 20 times

Thread: Re: Risk: Japan

jschlickbernd — 2008-08-04T16:51:45+00:00

Would agree that it's not Risk. The biggest con with the game that you didn't list (and probably didn't see because you didn't finish) is that the players who start on the edges have a huge advantage over the player(s) who start in the middle. We found that after 20 games or so, the player(s) in the middle never stood a chance of winning. We loved the actual design and combat, but the map was just too brutal.

Thread: Re: Points System

MikeyMike79 — 2008-08-04T13:09:50+00:00

I think this is a great idea. I've always thought this game took a bit too long and the castles were never the best option... Now, they are essential to build and take over.

However, I'd say that the number of VP to win the game and number of available castles should scale with the number of players.

Thread: Re: Risk: Japan

franklincobb — 2008-08-04T12:30:45+00:00

Samurai Swords/Shogun has probably one of my favorite light wargame combat resolution systems. The long range/short range tiered attack system is awesome and creates tough choices. Do you pay for more elite long range troops, knowing that they cost more and their casualties will hurt tremendously? Or do you swarm with cheaper troops, even though they get shredded by early long-range fire and can't fight worth dirt?

As far as the Risk thing...yes, it's on a map with areas, and has plastic figures, and you take terriroty by dice rolling. That's as far as the similarity goes.

Thread: Re: Risk: Japan

Philip Thomas — 2008-08-04T12:19:39+00:00

This is Risk:Japan in the same way that Axis and Allies is Risk:WWII, or Fortress America is Risk:USA that is to say, not really. The combat system is very different: in the Milton Bradley games you roll 1 die per combat unit in the fight and need to roll a certain number on the dice, independent of the enemy number. In Risk you roll a fixed number of dice which is related to the number of units you have only for small armies and you need to roll higher than your oppponent's roll. Furthermore each time the dice are rolled in Risk a maximum of 2 units are killed, while in the Milton Bradley Games casualties can be very much higher- which makes for a much faster game.

Moreover, there are different types of combat units which cost different amounts in SS and AA (Fortress America has different types of combat unit but they are not purchased). Plus there are a lot of extra bells and whistles- sea combat in AA, Fortifications and ninjas in SS etc.

There's no doubt Risk had some influence on the development of the Militon Bradley Games, but there's a lot more going on.

Thread: Re: Risk: Japan

DrFlanagan — 2008-08-04T08:08:20+00:00

Is there a reason all games with provinces where you roll to attack are "like Risk"? This game is much too sophisticated in gameplay to be considered Like Risk. Like Axis and Allies would be a more accurate statement.

And "lots of die rolling" should mean luck is mitigated.

Sorry, pet peeve.

Thread: Risk: Japan

VixenTorGames — 2008-08-04T07:05:50+00:00

When you start talking about the game Shogun, you have to clarify which one you mean. There's a sort of Euro game out there called Shogun, whose most identifiable feature is a dice tower that doesn't work right. Then there's an old game called Shogun from Milton Bradley that got renamed and called Samurai Swords, and it's so out of print you can mostly only find it on eBay. This review covers that old one, not the new one with the wacky dice tower.

You may be wondering why I'm reviewing a game that's over 20 years old, out of print and not even called what it used to be called. I've got two reasons - first, some readers were talking about the game and asked what I thought of it, so I figured I would give it a spin and tell them what I thought. The second reason is that I've had the game for two years and haven't had a chance to play it, and a review was the perfect excuse to squeeze in a game.

I've been really lucky recently to get a local game group started (if you're in Arlington, Texas and want to play some games on a Saturday afternoon, drop me a line). The people in this group are awesome, but I've decided that just in case they all like me, I need to give them nicknames so that they'll have a good reason to kick me in the shins next time we meet. For the purpose of this review, I'll only be naming three of them, since those are the guys I played with when I was playing Shogun last weekend.

Rockford is a high-school teacher and a mad gamer, and last time we played he showed up in a Hawaiian print shirt that showed off his gray chest hair like an 80's TV detective, only about 20 years older. He's funny, and tricky, and often pulls out moves you never saw coming. Spaz is an Asian student studying at the local university, and he's smart and shrewd and a tough player. He also throws the dice on the floor about as often as he hits the table. And finally, The Shark is an unassuming, quiet dude that seems like he ought to be an easy mark, but he wins just about anything he plays. I've never won a game when The Shark was playing.

So we sat down to play Shogun last Saturday, and the first thing we had to do was explain the rules. Between explaining the rules and setting up the game, we didn't get started for about 45 minutes. It took Rockford three tries to understand how it works to hire the ninja, and Spaz kept slowing me down to repeat stuff I said too fast. So at the start, I was a little worried, because that's a lot of rules.

Then we started playing, and all worries were set aside (except that once he figured out he could hire that damned ninja to spy on us or assassinate people, Rockford got him every time). Hot damn, Shogun is a fun game.

Basically, Shogun is Risk, but in Japan. You can be the Shogun if you can grab 35 provinces (and then you win). There are about 60 provinces on the board, so that means you'll need to do some pretty hardcore smackdowns to win this one. But unlike Risk, where the board gets really messy with all the armies you build, Shogun has three armies on a separate card that let you see exactly what troops are in your mobile military forces.

There are other differences, like the way turn order is determined by drawing plastic swords with diamonds on them, or how, when you lose a province, you have to give up the card showing it and it sits empty on the board until someone claims it. Attacks all have to be declared at the same time, so you can't go, 'wow, that didn't work like I had hoped, I better send in these other guys.' And sometimes you'll declare an attack that might not do any good, just to hedge your bets.

The amount of strategy in Shogun blows my mind. There's a fantastic mix of strategy and tactics, and lots of room for pulling rabbits out of your sleeve. For instance, when I declared a double attack on Rockford's weakened army, surprise ronin popped up to fight me, and then the ninja killed the general of one of my attacking armies, after which Rockford proceeded to stomp a mudhole in me.

There's also lots of dice rolling. When you fight a battle, you go through step-by-step rolls for each kind of combatant - first the bowmen, then the gunners, then the daimyo, and so on, so the dice just keep rolling. Which means that Spaz has plenty of opportunities to stand up, get excited, and then hurl the dice halfway across the room. The odds still work out so that the better player will win - the dice just make things interesting (and even more interesting if you have to keep hunting for them on the floor).

And the best part is that adequate planning and distribution of your armies will make you a really tough player to beat. The Shark quietly consolidated most of the southern part of the main island, and by the end of the third turn, had three huge armies rolling across the country virtually uncontested. In the meantime, Rockford, Spaz and I just kept smashing into each other, which The Shark used to his advantage by striking a couple diplomatic deals and quickly rising to power.

Unfortunately, I can't tell you how the game ends. We played for about two and a half hours, and then Rockford and Spaz had to leave. And at that point, we had just finished three turns. There's no way we would have finished before dark, and we started at 1:30 in the afternoon. Shogun is a big game, and a ridiculous amount of fun, but this isn't the game you should pick if you're short on time. This is a stay-up-late-with-good-friends game. This is not a quick-afternoon-pickup game.

This is also a really pretty game. There are figures for bowmen, gunners, spearmen, and more. There are little plastic castles and a great big board with great art. The colors are subdued (and I'm not entirely sure part of that isn't a little sun bleach on my copy), and the art works wonderfully. Rockford kept exclaiming how much he liked the setup, and we all agreed. It looks great.

I would love to play Shogun again. I had a blast. It's part cutthroat, part planning, part tactics, and all fun. It's a huge game - the box is bigger than any other game I own - and it can take several hours to finish, even if you know what you're doing. But the whole time you're playing, you'll be having a great time, especially if you can rope Rockford, Spaz and The Shark into playing with you.

Summary

Pros:
Awesome pieces
Great tactics
Intense strategy
Careful diplomacy
Incredibly fun

Cons:
Lots of die-rolling means lots of luck
Really long game

Thread: Victory Point Shogun session II

Seth_Logan — 2008-07-09T16:18:26+00:00

Last Saturday we played our second session of Victory Point Shogun.
Victory Point Shogun is a variant in which a player who claims 35VP instead of 35 Provinces wins. Our first game of VP Shogun took us little under six hours but was probably 1-2 rounds away from being finished, but we had to stop. All in all a reasonable time, but this time I wanted the game to be spot on. And this time we achieved in doing so. We played our session in exactly five hours. One hour was for setting up and going through the rules for a newbie. The remaining four hours were spent on four complete rounds of play and the fifth that would produce the winner (the second player to go).
So all in all, for me, this variant is here to stay. The game proceeds towards an ending and does so in an accumulating fashion, building up tension as the game progresses.

The rules for Victory Point Shogun are here:
www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/287256

Victory Point Shogun, makes turtleing redundant, because of the speed at which the game is resolved (I guess it’s much like Risk Revised or Black Ops where this tendency towards continuous build up of tension is also explored). To emphasise this even further we banned the third 1 step and the second 3 step, meaning an army is able to play at level four in 6 rounds rather than 8. Had we not finished our game the turn before that was about to happen with as much as 9 different armies still able to reach level four, then most certainly we would have finished the game in round 6. Which is good for the game, and perfect for our moral!

Round 1 (experience 1-15 armies)
With 5 players the game board gets pretty crowded. The last thing you want to do then is trap one of your armies between opponents with little chances of them getting out if the Daimyo’s get moving. But that’s still what happened to Blue and Red. Both trapped an army on opposite corners of the board. Red in the south-west while the bulk of his provinces were in Kii in the east. And Blue in the north while he held Kyushu (biggest island in the south). Orange and Green had learned from their previous engagements and decided to place their armies more closely together. Green in the north and Orange in the south-west. Purple was playing even tighter and placed his armies in central Japan on or near Shinano and Mino. This set up meant that Orange was going to be pitched against Blue and Red and vice versa, and that Green was going to fight a private war with Purple.

Round 2 (experience 1-15 armies)
All players were very cautious because they knew that this round all daimyo experiences would go up after the final moves. So this was creating some tension as players were trying to place their Daimyo’s in relative safe places, while still being able to strike at others. Also the first castles were popping up at Shinano (Purple) and Buzen (Blue) giving their owners 1 VP. Most players succeeded in doing so but Blue. As predicted the army was trapped in Kazusa in the far north, while trying to escape to Hyuga via Kii (a mission impossible anyway), by a semi-powerful Green army. Blue and Orange swapped some provinces and Purple repositioned his troops, to be able to strike a particular Green army which was dangling to the west of his Mimo, Hida, Shinano triangle.

Round 3 (experience 1-1 & 2-14)
This round proved to be the preliminary to a worthy climax the following round. As safety measures more castles were placed in Kii (Red), Iyo (Shikoku island-Orange), Mino (Purple) while Green maintained a non-castle doctrine (also due to lack of funds) and opened the ball with an attack on the lone Blue army in Kazusa. This was an almost disaster, because he had very few first-line (Bowman, Gunners) and many second-line soldiers pitched against a well equipped and most first-line but short handed Blue army. He won the battle and claimed the first 3VP for killing a Daimyo but Green knew he had given his own army away in the process. Red, noticing the predicament Green was in, shifted his rather weak but probably effective enough army closer to Green’s lone standing Daimyo, eager to shop him down in the next round. Orange and Blue were fighting their mary-go-round war in the south. Switching provinces between themselves with Orange placing more and more distance between his armies and were victory would be decided: the north and north-east of Japan.

Round 4 (experience 2-14)
With 14 armies still in the race something had to give. As it turned out, Green and Red would be the ones doing the giving, Purple doing the taking. First one more castle was built by Red in Hyuga and the first fortress appeared in Iyo (Orange). Being the only player that consistently groups his armies together, Purple was not that big a player in the number of provinces he possessed, but what he lacked in provinces, he more than made up in position(s). And he was going to exploit those in the best way he could. Claiming the first sword choice and the ninja plus some ronin, he was able to go first and plot out a path to take care of the weakened Green army in the north-east, its would be attacker Red, and another lone Green army in Mutsu that had kept itself out of the action, out of range and thus out of a large army in the north due to Purple’s positioning game. Purple was going for gold. In one big swoop he cleaned out 3 enemy armies and because all his armies were going to experience 3 by the end of this round, they could all return to the relative safety of the castles in Shinano and Mino. Green could do nothing to alter the situation, nor take revenge and led his last standing army to the island of Sado hoping, praying and longing for better days to come. Red on the other hand was really taken by the loss of his Red army, ‘cause he had planned to use it as a support army against the Mino castle and Purple army there after it had dealt with ‘his’ Green enemy first. Now he had to engage with his 2 to 1 force against the Purples in Mimo without it. It was doable and he was determined… and so was Purple’s ninja. Just before he declared his attack, but after leaving the safety from his castle, Purple declared an assassination attempt on him, which was successful. All of Red’s plans had fallen to pieces, leaving him with a vulnerable castle, an unsuccessful army and a dead army too. While all this was going on in the north, the south saw some moderate action too, with Blue beginning to feel the loss of its third army and the voluntary entrapment of his possessions on the island of Kyuhsu. For me in particular it looked like Orange was setting himself up to win. He withdrew even further from the north and secured more of central en south Japan, which gave him 7 koku by the end of the turn. I believed he was setting up for the kill in R5.

Round 5 (experience 1-1 & 3-10)
This time around nobody had bothered to hire the ninja. I didn’t need it and apparently no one had bothered to count if someone could win the game this turn (I suppose nobody expected it to happen this soon or something). So the first player to go, Orange, just about made a dead stop at 32VP’s, 3 VP’s shy off winning, but with a huge budget (since the man only had 1 fortress (worth 2VP’s)). Purple was second, but since Orange had neglected to count his own chances for success, he had also neglected to count Purple’s chances. For Purple winning the game was now a mere formality as he only needed 7 more provinces to get to 35VP. He took 10 and the emperor immediately gave him the title of SHOGUN

Purple: 9VP Daimyo, 2VP fortress, 1VP castle & 27 Provinces = 39VP
Orange: -VP Daimyo, 4VP fortress, -VP Castle & 23 Provinces = 27VP
Blue: -VP Daimyo, 2VP fortress, 1VP Castle & 9 Provinces = 12VP
Red: -VP Daimyo, -VP fortress, -VP Castle & 6 Provinces = 6VP
Green: 3VP Daimyo, -VP fortress, -VP Castle & 3 Provinces = 6VP

The game was very successful, and although I both Orange and I do seem to make a clear win when judging from the end score, remember that the other three still had a round coming to them which would allow a swing of at least 14 provinces in other (their) directions.

It was a blast!

Cheers,

Seth

Thread: Re: Victory Point Shogun

Seth_Logan — 2008-07-04T22:06:20+00:00

I deceided on an additional change to further speed up game play.

Thread: Re: Castle bonus - definition of "attacker" and "defender"

mr_wowtrousers — 2008-07-02T11:02:55+00:00

Thanks guys, rephrasing it the way you did made it more obvious.

Thread: Re: Castle bonus - definition of "attacker" and "defender"

_Kael_ — 2008-06-30T14:47:35+00:00

Neither answer is correct, IMO.

The correct answer is:

No, you can't: it's like leaving your castle and crossing the border, invading the enemy provincie and fighting somewhere near the border.

The only way to get the 4 spearmen is when HE attacks YOU: he invades your provincie, your troops retreat into the castle and he has to lay siege and scale the walls - hence the (extra) hits he receives from the 4 sp.men.

There's no 'double troop province', there's only your troops and a castlewall, simulated by adding 4 spearmen to your troops when defending.

In more then 4000 yr of military history, there's never been something like an attacking castle.

Matthijs

Edit: while I was rereading my post, Bulwyf beat me to it

Thread: Re: Castle bonus - definition of "attacker" and "defender"

Bulwyf — 2008-06-30T14:40:38+00:00

mr_wowtrousers wrote:

How does it work if it is your wage war phase and you are attacking from a castle prefecture? The bonus units do not attack, but are they considered when your opponent takes their defending roll?

Example:

My province has a bowman, swordsman, spearman and castle.

Opponent has 2 spearman.

I attack with my 3 units and miss on all rolls

Opponent rolls and scores 2 hits

Can I take casualties from the 4 bonus spearman or are they only given to you when an opponent attacks you during their turn?

My group loves Shogun/Samurai Swords. I still maintain that it was the best of the original Gamemaster Series.

To answer your question, no. You do not get the bonus spearmen or ronin when you attack out of a fortified province. The bonus units that a castle or fortress provide represent the extra difficulty an army must face when assaulting defensive works. Therefore you only get the bonus units when defending such a space. Hope that answers your question and enjoy Shogun!

-Will

Thread: Castle bonus - definition of "attacker" and "defender"

mr_wowtrousers — 2008-06-30T14:21:37+00:00

Being the good mate that I am, I have been getting some friends into Shogun recently after picking up a copy from eBay a few years ago.

Most of the rules are pretty straightforward and this site has been a great help in terms of the clarified rules and variations, but something came up when we played on the weekend.

Now, we know that castles and fortresses confer bonus spearman/samurai when you defending against an attack, that is when you are defending against a declared battle made by an opponent during their "wage war" phase.

How does it work if it is your wage war phase and you are attacking from a castle prefecture? The bonus units do not attack, but are they considered when your opponent takes their defending roll?

Example:

My province has a bowman, swordsman, spearman and castle.

Opponent has 2 spearman.

I attack with my 3 units and miss on all rolls

Opponent rolls and scores 2 hits

Can I take casualties from the 4 bonus spearman or are they only given to you when an opponent attacks you during their turn?

I guess the two ways to look at it are:

No: It is like attacking from a double troop province. You might attack with your army but you do not "defend" with the army+provincial force (while if you are being attacked during an opponents wage war phase you defend with everyone in the province).

Yes: What is the point of a castle if it doesn't defend you at all times? This is the inherent benefit of spending money on a large immovable stone structure.

I'd be glad to get your input

Cheers

Thread: Re: The obligatory 2 player question

drybonestolife — 2008-06-13T05:44:31+00:00

I played the two player game about three times and I have always enjoyed it in spite of the limitations mentioned. Those limitations in fact add to the initial strategy. I agree however that not being able to pass through your ally is frustrating.

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Seth_Logan — 2008-06-07T17:28:19+00:00

Our game of Victory Point Shogun - notice the three flags collected by the Purple player; they are all worth 3VP each in this variant!

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mwhaley25 — 2008-05-26T15:57:28+00:00

Custom mon I created as decals for the Zvezda army

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mwhaley25 — 2008-05-26T14:55:39+00:00

New house rules lead to a signification game redesign...

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mwhaley25 — 2008-05-26T14:53:15+00:00

My new Zvezda replacement armies may take a while to paint...

Thread: Re: Victory Point Shogun

mwhaley25 — 2008-05-07T17:25:58+00:00

My group can take 8+ hours to finish a game. Fortunately, none of us really seem to mind. Most of us have played over 20 times, so it is not due to lack of experience, it is just that some players are so good at exposing every weakness that it takes a lot of analyzing before you are satisfied with ending your buy or combat turn.

We each make very few mistakes, which has a certain price tag on the time needed to complete a game.

Thread: Re: The uncrowned empress of my game collection

_Kael_ — 2008-05-06T13:26:37+00:00

Danny from Tower wrote:
Because defending against naval invasion gives you a bonus, I tend to use castles on strategic islands.Bear in mind though that the extra spearmen (or swordmen) you get for your castle (fortress) do not have a free fire round.

We played that wrong for a few years although the rules explicitly state so.

So if you have 1 spearman and 1 gunner in a fortress on a island, you only roll 2 dice when invaded. Then you add your 5 swordmen and a normal batlle starts, in which you must take the five swordmen as losses, before you choose the spearman (and gunner).

Thread: Re: The uncrowned empress of my game collection

Danny from Tower — 2008-05-06T13:15:15+00:00

The thing about the castle building is that the different levels of castle help you defend a spot BUT if you lose it the castle falls into enemy hands, making it hard to take back.

Because defending against naval invasion gives you a bonus, I tend to use castles on strategic islands. That has such a "Shogun" feel, seeing those grand little fortress models on an island surrounded by sea and guarded by a few musket men and a host of spear men.

Thread: Re: Victory Point Shogun

Seth_Logan — 2008-05-05T07:02:50+00:00

Groups. In every setting I have played the game lasts hours and hours. 4 to 5 would be just right for me.

Thread: Re: Victory Point Shogun

Sphere — 2008-05-04T22:54:12+00:00

Your group must be really methodical. I've never seen a game last longer than 4-5 hours.

Thread: Re: Victory Point Shogun

Seth_Logan — 2008-05-04T21:59:29+00:00

MikeyMike79 wrote:
Sphere wrote:
I'm curious as to why you created the variant. Was there something about the original rules that you didn't like? I personally thought it was a brilliant game as published.

Sounds like a great variant. And for the record, to create a variant and to share it with the online community doesn't mean that there was something "wrong" with the original game. Many times, people just want to play an old game in a different way with the hopes for a different (and fun!) experience!

Let me stress: there is and was nothing wrong with the original game. I love the original game. It just takes too long. This one has cut back playing time to 5 3/4 hours. Probably to be finished within 7-8 hours if we had finished it. A lot of us (3 in 4 hadn't played the game in quit some time. I think the next time the first six rounds we played can be reduced to 45 minutes per round meaning we would be in roughly the same position in less than 4 1/2 hours. That is more or less acceptable since it is in reference with another one of my favourites: Axis & Allies Revised. We were never able to finish this game due to two mayor factors (among others): turtleing and king bashing. The you-go-I-go mechanism threatened to simplify the game to an exercise in self restraint. With these minor changes (just to speed up the game) I hope I can start playing the game within a reasonable time frame. Does this answer your question?

Logan

I am sorry for the robot like response but I’m currently viewing the Matrix trilogy. Watching the lines of the Source kind of gets to the lingo…

Thread: Re: Victory Point Shogun

Sphere — 2008-05-04T21:51:17+00:00

MikeyMike79 wrote:
Sounds like a great variant. And for the record, to create a variant and to share it with the online community doesn't mean that there was something "wrong" with the original game. Many times, people just want to play an old game in a different way with the hopes for a different (and fun!) experience!

Do you mind my asking? There has to be a thought process involved in selecting an element that you want to change. I'm curious about it.

edit: I just followed the supplied link, and see that it addresses the goal as well as providing the rules. Curiosity satisfied.

Thread: Re: Victory Point Shogun

MikeyMike79 — 2008-05-04T21:13:28+00:00

Sphere wrote:
I'm curious as to why you created the variant. Was there something about the original rules that you didn't like? I personally thought it was a brilliant game as published.

Sounds like a great variant. And for the record, to create a variant and to share it with the online community doesn't mean that there was something "wrong" with the original game. Many times, people just want to play an old game in a different way with the hopes for a different (and fun!) experience!

Thread: Re: Victory Point Shogun

Sphere — 2008-05-04T19:53:17+00:00

I'm curious as to why you created the variant. Was there something about the original rules that you didn't like? I personally thought it was a brilliant game as published.

Thread: Victory Point Shogun

Seth_Logan — 2008-05-04T15:49:47+00:00

Victory Point Shogun

So, after a few delays we finally got to play a 4 player game of Shogun. I was anxious to try this new variant I had thought off and which hailed some positive critique from the few people that actually visit this great game's page.
Starting early at 19:00 hours – and on a time limit of no later then 24:00 hours – we didn't waist any time with the obvious turtleing phase that is common to this game. Our time limit was a factor... but it wasn't the largest contribution to what would turn out to be a nail biting experience. We played my Victory Point Shogun system; a system that declares a winner on the basis of achieving 35 VP's instead of 35 Provinces. The larger part of the VP's are still awarded according to 1 VP per Province, but additionally you can claim VP's for building Castles, Fortresses, killing Daimyos in battle and Eliminating players. All in what turned out to be a very subtle addition to the game. It also meant that strategies were going to adapt.

In the early game there were two strategies evolving: Purple (me) and Blue were fighting over the Western (I'm viewing the game on an West-East basis, rather then a North-South one as displayed in an Atlas) part of the mainland and Blue asserted a claim over the 2nd and 3rd islands, in the old fashioned style with moderate Daimyo Armies and stronger border Provincial armies to expand on a larger scale (3 to 9 conquests a turn). The Center and East where dominated by Orange and Green. Both players seemed to 'circle' around each other in attempts to outmaneuver the opponent, thus trying to isolate an enemy army while picking up constant reinforcements for their ever growing armies themselves.
I decided on an early Castle since it benefited a permanent defense and gave me an additional VP. Blue and Purple grew in a steady rate. I had the advantage of always being behind Blue so for the larger part of the early game I had some koku extra to spend. Orange and Green in the meanwhile were starting to pay the price for their ever growing main armies, but poorly garrisoned provinces. Besides the small skirmishes that Blue and I had over the small Islands, and what I had claimed as my Western half of the board, we could grow quit unopposed in the east. Orange and Green – both only earning about 4 koku a turn – knew that this could not last. So Green launched an assault against one of Orange's armies. Orange was defeated with relative ease, and it gave the first glimpse on the real improvement of the system: 3 VP’s were added to Green's score that could never be taken away from him. Both Orange and Green (but in particular Green) had decided on a tactic that would change the way we conduct war in Shogun. His massive armies were on the prowl, looking out for any misplaced Daimyo that could be scooped up for the score. Meanwhile Purple had build a second castle and launched attacks from well within its center, lashing out to outskirt lone provinces, from all (but mostly Blue) players. Blue at this point made a mistake that should have won me the game. In this particular round I was last and – after a few minor attacks – one of Blue's armies settled in the most southern province Kiji(?) and thought he was safe from harm. He wasn't. I jumped to the opportunity to attack and destroy the army and gained my first kill as well as 3 VP's. What I neglected to do was count just how many points I was going to achieve in doing this otherwise I might have stretched out the attacks a bit further. I claimed 32 VP's that turn. 3 for the kill. 3 for castles (I was still the only one who had those) and 26 provinces. Since we play sudden death (or instant victory) I could (and should) have won there and then.
Needles to say that after this turn the tide would turn on me. 5 massive armies swirled towards me as both Blue and Green felt they had to stop me. It was Blue who wanted too much. He launched an attack against one army in my first castle and then attacked another in a second. While being lucky on the first attack and killing one of my precious forces he got some bad dice (and was underpowered) for the second attack. I whopped his ass and sent him back as far as I could.
This crude awakening that the game indeed can be won by having a few castles and killing enemies evoked even the biggest turtle player – Orange – to take a shot at glory. In a pretty desperate (to little to late kind of way) he threw himself at Green who was in a superior position: Island, Castle and Ronin complemented his almost full force. Orange was smashed. But it was only after we warned him that he would lose 3 VP’s to Green too, if he was killed in this suicide attempt, that he decided to back off and lick his wounds.
As a side affect to all this killing and my adaptation to Green's strategy of maintaining larger armies and no provincials, complemented with successful raids and then returning to the relative safety of a Castle, a lot more of them started to pop-up now that their worth was beginning to show.
Right after the illusionary attacks from Blue on my second Castle, Green in a deceitful way kind of betrayed (they had no official deal) Blue and attacked the beaten army which was not placed sufficiently back in order to be fully safe. It was killed at an instant. But then the Greens made (over enthusiastically by his winnings) made the same mistake and placed his armies to close to mine. It was payback time. I attacked both armies that had successfully beaten Blue and walked over them with relative ease. The best part was that by now Green had only one army left with experience one. Blue had one army left but too far away. And Orange had one injured and one distant army. At the end of my turn I claimed a staggering 9VP's for kills, 1VP for a Castle and 2VP for a Fortress, but I only possessed 13 provinces.
What a game! We had just finished the 6th round in 5 ¾ hours and already 6 Armies were killed: 1 Purple, 1 Orange, 2 Green and 2 Blue. 1 fortress oversaw the nation (Purple) and 4 Castles were packed with forces (1 Purple, 1 Blue, 1 Green and 1 Orange). Too bad we had to finish the game since one of us had a race the next day. I think I had a pretty good shot at winning (although no one will ever confirm that), since I held the most kills and still had 2 armies. On the other hand; as had been the entire game, the swings in power shifted from side to side with only the amplitude from the number of provinces switching hands increasing as our experience grew. I am very glad with the way this variant played out and I am eagerly looking forward to our next confrontation!

Cheers,

Logan

For the Variant Rules check:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/287256

In there I posted the rules with the option of scoring after a full round has been done to give everyone a chance, but since we were on a time constraint I opted for a sudden death scenario (which I will keep btw). In the sudden death scenarion scoring for castles etc. is calculated at the end of your turn. If you can claim 35VP's you win instantly.

Thread: Storage Solution - custom box insert plans uploaded

Prodromoi — 2008-04-18T16:21:49+00:00

When my copy of Shogun I bought from eBay arrived yesterday, I was chuffed. In fact I can't remember a more chuff-worthy eBay purchase! But inside the box was an absolute mess of bags and loose stuff. I could see it being all to easy for the fragile components to get damaged. So, having made something similar for my Imperial box a couple of weeks ago, I created my own box insert to to better protect the contents:

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I'm very pleased with the way it turned out; it makes life a great deal easier!

I've just finished turning my notes and scribbles into proper plans in case anyone else is interested in assembling one for themselves or using it as inspiration for their own version. The full plans are available for download from the Shogun/Samurai Swords files section, here: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/file/info/31963

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Prodromoi — 2008-04-18T11:47:28+00:00

Storage solution - custom made box insert (the board rests on top with the styrofoam pieces on top of the board)

Thread: Re: New owner- a simple question

OrangeCat X — 2008-04-14T01:52:57+00:00

That is a GOOD idea.

And it IS a good game. Lost my copy when I moved back to N.A. from Japan.

Thread: Re: World's Fastest Game

Dorque — 2008-04-09T22:27:24+00:00

That's some solid math. Other players will be losing guys on their turns so it could be even more lopsided. Going last on the first turn totally rules.

Would it still be a massacre if they had dropped a spearman in every province? AAA vs AA? Well, then you could too and get AAAA vs AA... Dood, I have to break this out again.

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autumnweave — 2008-04-06T01:10:39+00:00

Samurai Swords being playied at Gamestorm: Seth (Witheredhand) Jon (Quozl) Eldon (Nichol) and John. John (Orange player) won.

Thread: Re: My 9th Favorite Game

mwhaley25 — 2008-04-01T21:34:32+00:00

I must play with very slow people. We do have some variant rules, but they are very well balanced, and we average 6+ hours per game. It is not uncommon to go over 8 hours. None of us mind, it is plenty of food and fun, but I have never understood how you could play the game that quickly.

We spend a lot of time negotiating the politics, but not that much...

Thread: Re: ronin

mwhaley25 — 2008-04-01T19:40:57+00:00

The limit is only one less if you do not add a "ronin revolt" variant. We have been playing that way for years now. I would be interested to hear some feedback the idea some time.

Thread: Re: Beginners guide to Becoming Powerful

mwhaley25 — 2008-04-01T18:03:10+00:00

I agree with the bulk of what you said. My only complaint is you are telling other people about it. It is amazing how some do not realize the intuitive strategies that are an inherent conclusion from the rules, and can't ever figure out why they are losing every game. In my group, I won virtually every game until another strategy guru arrived. Since then, we have each won about 50% of the games, and it has been rare that anyone else has won. We don't play with bad players, and some of them are learning very quickly (and starting to win), but these basic strategies are so important to the game.

The thing I thought was the most important was your comment about future take aways. My group started very civilized, and has become more brutal (especially since the arrival of my friend... It was like Napoleon showing up and revolutionizing warfare). As the game has become more barbaric, however, I have kept one mantra: if I tell you I will do something, I will do it. I will completely deceive people, and frequently mislead them to draw the wrong conclusions about my intentions, but I have NEVER lied. It is the only thing that has prevented our group from completely deteriorating into a free for all. There can only be one winner in each game, but in the interest of winning all games, you have to have a line you will not cross. Interestingly, this does not proclude backstabbing "allies." You just have to be very calculating in how you phrase your deals.

To me, the most important thing to remember about strategy is this: only do things that are in your own best interest. Never declare vendettas over frivolities and useless territory grabs by others. Focus on the objectives that will attain victory, and do not bother with nuisance attacks from people who will have no impact in the final outcome.

Thanks for a great article.

P.S. Five player games are the best...

Thread: Re: Army pick up provincial troops in starting territory?

robmcarthur2001 — 2008-03-30T05:21:56+00:00

Just further to the comments regarding the example. On page 25, for the first combat example, it mentions that the army has 3 gunners - since it started with two and the player levied one into the provicial army on page 15, it definitely seems that the army can pick up starting province units.

Thread: Re: If you like Axis & Allies, you'll love Shogun

SFRR — 2008-03-15T04:56:46+00:00

Agreed. A&A becomes very predictable, Shogun (Samurai Swords) is far superior.

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ecraven — 2008-03-13T14:11:36+00:00

self-made army boards

Thread: Re: Beginners guide to Becoming Powerful

_Kael_ — 2008-03-12T14:26:08+00:00

Smashmaster wrote:
Shogun 5 player is much more deadly then with 5. The board is crowded with generals and troops, and the blood flows quickly. Wiping out a weak player or making them weak is often not a game deciding event, as the victor often becomes the next target.

Shogun 3 player is much more stately. Shogun 4 player seems to be the best version.By the way: I don't agree. 4 players tend to stalemate, each occupying one corner of the board. The game drags on. While with five, there's always one player too many on the board. More action, indeed more deadly, and because of that, more fun!

And most of the times, the game end the turn the 1st player is eliminated, or the turn after.

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ecraven — 2008-03-09T19:56:43+00:00

self-made board

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ecraven — 2008-03-09T18:01:43+00:00

self-made country cards

Thread: Re: Ninja's

Funkypea — 2008-02-27T06:27:01+00:00

_Kael_ wrote:
Funkypea wrote:
_Kael_ wrote:

In Total War:Shogun (which is obviously based upon the boardgame) ninja's can be used in more diverse ways.
I thought this too but I had a chat to Mike Simpson (Project Director on Shogun) a couple of years back and he was actually inspired by the 1988 game, Lords of the Rising Sun.I don't see a "Lords of the Rsing un entry here on BGG
(ergo: the game can't exist! )
What game is that?

Computer game, made by Cinemaware... website still works... http://www.cinemaware.com/clsgame_lords.asp

Gotta love how it has dated... "One of the largest universes ever created on a computer. The greatest graphics and animations ever to appear in a wargame." Admittedly 20 years ago this was all probably true...

Thread: Re: World's Fastest Game

Funkypea — 2008-02-27T00:20:06+00:00

Dorque wrote:
Taking nine territories with no casualties would be phenomenal luck. How could you set up so many lopsided fights when each army can only attack once and you can only place one guy in to each province?

Given the starting position and some basic (but relatively obscure) statistics you’ll find it wasn’t very lucky at all...

Casualties
I actually took 5 casualties - a spearman and a gunner as mentioned along with three of the four ronin I hired
Since I was last player the ronin were useless after my turn so were a no-brainer as casualties

Three Player Starting Positions
Each player gets 22 provinces with 2 leftover
Can strengthen between 12 and 15 (depending on whether you put your armies in provinces with 1 spear or 3 spears)
So at start of first turn there is between 16 and 22 weakly defended provinces for each player to attack

Turn 1 Play
Liz and Tim both spent 2 of their seven koku on building, unsurprisingly they placed them in locations already containing strong forces
During the levying they strengthened attack forces, figuring that it wasn't worth trying to spend too much money on lost causes
I too primarily bolstered my attack forces although I did add a few defensive troops to some regions as well as creating a stealth force by adding a bowman to a one-spear province and adding two ronin
As mentioned they both ignored me totally in the first turn, so there were still lots of slim pickings for me to take… ultimately there were 9 potential targets I could attack in turn 1 (i.e. weakly defended and I had a suitable force available)

Combat Satatistics
It’s funny how much difference first strike and having more units can make to your odds of winning. I ran some numbers on some common combinations of units attacking a single spearman and here are the results rounded to nearest integer
A = spearman, B = bowman, G = gunner, S = sword (samurai or ronin)
WN = win with N casualties, D = Draw (everyone dies), L = loss (enemy survives)

..AAA......58%W0......36%W1......4%W2......................0%D......0%L
BAAA......82%W0......17%W1......1%W2......0%W3......0%D......0%L
GAAA......72%W0......24%W1......2%W2......0%W3......0%D......0%L
SAAA......62%W0......35%W1......2%W2......0%W3......0%D......0%L

So basically if one of the provinces you reinforced at setup attacks a province the enemy didn’t reinforce, you have a roughly 7 in 12 chance of taking it without any losses
If you add a swordsman your odds of winning without casualties go up to better than 3 in 5 whereas adding a missile troop increases it to almost 3 in 4 or 4 in 5.

Obviously using Daimyo armies gives even better odds

So given 9 attacks, 3 of which were with armies, losing 5 troops was actually pretty unlucky...

Thread: Re: New owner- a simple question

cabalzero — 2008-02-25T19:39:57+00:00

Grebnol wrote:
Then it shall be as the legends will it to be: I will not shame my daimyo, the game must not go ronin!

However, are there any suggestions on how to shorten the play time to around 3 hours? My gaming group won't play anything that last longer

Best suggestion I know of is to allow a "trade" phase after placement of the spearmen denoting "ownership" of a province; players may trade provinces with other players one at a time until someone refuses a trade (so make those offers attractive!). This can shave a good hour off play-time.

Thread: Re: Ninja's

_Kael_ — 2008-02-25T10:40:17+00:00

nasofw wrote:
We play the same way with ninja's, its too frustrating to have a daimyo assasinated when he is at a high level. One rule variant we have always used is at the beginning of the game after reinforcements have been placed. we all pick a castle and make at our HQ, it also gives one koku chip. If it is taken over you dont lose, but your opponent gets the additional Koku. We have played that way for over ten years and its never been a rule that is disputed.I like the homebase+1koku-castle idea.

But I don't understand your "its too frustrating": as fas as I can see no player can't be afforded to have a lvl4 daimyo. So in our games most daimyos are killed before they reach that height. It's not frustrating. It's a fact of life. Short life expectancy for such powerful leaders. If a player has lvl4 daimyos and others don't, he'll have a big advantage, if not a gamewinning advantage.

Thread: Re: Ninja's

_Kael_ — 2008-02-25T10:35:42+00:00

Funkypea wrote:
_Kael_ wrote:

In Total War:Shogun (which is obviously based upon the boardgame) ninja's can be used in more diverse ways.
I thought this too but I had a chat to Mike Simpson (Project Director on Shogun) a couple of years back and he was actually inspired by the 1988 game, Lords of the Rising Sun.I don't see a "Lords of the Rsing un entry here on BGG
(ergo: the game can't exist! )
What game is that?

Thread: Re: New owner- a simple question

BagpipeDan — 2008-02-25T08:15:11+00:00

1. Play with "Capitals" (extra Koku a turn, lose if it falls) and allow players to "draft" their empires instead of distributing lands randomly. This gives you more control over your starting situation and also gives a "goal" to defend and attack others.

2. Time limits. A lot of time can be spent planning and thinking but generally there aren't any outright "bad" moves to make (unless you keep bidding on turn order), so a game clock wouldn't be out of the question.

3. Play the regular game but add a turn limit. After 6 turns, roll a d6. On a 6 the games over. After the next turn, roll again and end on a 5-6, etc.

Thread: Re: New owner- a simple question

Grebnol — 2008-02-25T07:21:09+00:00

Then it shall be as the legends will it to be: I will not shame my daimyo, the game must not go ronin!

However, are there any suggestions on how to shorten the play time to around 3 hours? My gaming group won't play anything that last longer

Thread: Re: Ninja's

Funkypea — 2008-02-25T02:15:32+00:00

_Kael_ wrote:

In Total War:Shogun (which is obviously based upon the boardgame) ninja's can be used in more diverse ways.
I thought this too but I had a chat to Mike Simpson (Project Director on Shogun) a couple of years back and he was actually inspired by the 1988 game, Lords of the Rising Sun.

Thread: Re: New owner- a simple question

cabalzero — 2008-02-25T02:01:58+00:00

Grebnol wrote:
I just picked up this game in it's original shrink wrap for $35 from an auction. My question is should I trade/sell it off or is it worth opening and enjoying?

Not that my gaming group might not want to play a 4+ hour game.

Honorable Bret, we shall forego the request for sepukku. This time. In short, play it. Lest I unleash the Ninja.

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janush — 2008-02-25T00:47:29+00:00