Game: Tide of Iron

Thread: Re: Plateau Rules

Fenriz — 2008-05-10T05:21:47+00:00

You could look at the single hex hill in the example as a hillock--a small rise of only .5 in height, thus you get the advantage of seeing over it and the blind hex effect.

...until you have a unit on that "hillock" and it has to shoot over the original hill.

Doh!

Maybe the hills can rise and fall? :D

Sidenote: I count ToI as a fun game, not a realistic simulation. However, these kind of things can kill the "suspension of disbelief".

Thread: Re: Ok.. let's go for mini ASL variant rules!

Chou4555 — 2008-05-09T07:14:55+00:00

Ok ok, the horse is dead and well flogged! So the no suppression variant sucked! But there can't be many people who disagree that moving in the open should be punished a little more heavily than the rules permit at present, and that sheltering from artillery/mortar fire in a wood is gonna get you some serious splinters? !!

As for tank facing... I assume that would be a simple, -1 armour to side shots, and -2 to rear? Nice n simple?

Thread: Re: Stavelot Express Report

scottandkimr — 2008-05-08T07:27:03+00:00

Thanks. If you do play it, please let us know the results, whatever strategy you use. It is an interesting scenario.

Thread: Re: Ok.. let's go for mini ASL variant rules!

7times7is49 — 2008-05-08T05:31:05+00:00

Not to kick a dead horse...

American military manuals and even the great Patton agreed that soldiers were trained to fire at obvious areas of strategic location where the enemy was known to be and not visible. This was meant to scare the enemy, score hits, and suppress their fire while an assault team closed in on their location.

Thread: Re: Wish list for next set/expansion

Sarge77 — 2008-05-08T02:38:44+00:00

Greqt ideas JB. Being not into the Eastern Front (just my own tastes) I would like to see a Pacific Theatre with landing boats, beaches, caves, etc...

A naval versionof TOI would be cool as well. Larger scale. Ships at sea,subs,islands,planes etc... Maps would obviously have to be re-designed but it just sounds cool to me.

Thread: Re: Stavelot Express Report

the tickler — 2008-05-08T09:21:48+00:00

Excellent report and very deep thoughts on strategy.

I will certainly remember this post when I play the scenario.

Thread: Wish list for next set/expansion

Chimaera — 2008-05-07T11:02:48+00:00

Well we all have ideas on what we would like to see as a new set/expansion. I have made my thoughts known below. Maybe others out there would like the same or have other ideas. Why no let everyone know. Maybe FFG will take note.

I think operation Market Garden would be a great theme. Why? See below.

1. Greater audience appeal through the inclusion of British, US, Polish, Dutch, Belgian & German forces.
2. It can be broken in to modules for each phase of the operation providing smaller expansions but maybe more often when it comes to release or they could just produce one massive coffin box.
3. A brilliant tactical challenge that offers varying degrees of difficulity for the Axis or Allies at various points throughout the operation.
4. New tactical challenges brought to the game e.g bridging, mass paratroop drops, airborne resup to name a few.
5. New units. We could see the introduction of new Elites e.g Paratroopers (possibly elite stats with an extra poss cover bonus). More light vehicles e.g Kubelwagen (for Cmdrs). More heavy tanks e.g Sherman Firefly. Specific bridging units e.g bailey bridge. Light boats to simulate those ludicrous river crossings. Special forces units e.g British SAS.
6. New gaming tiles that would have key locations e.g Arnhem for built up fighting or those long roads flanked by woods (Hells Highway). Major river crossings for the bridge scenarios (Nijmegen).
7. Possibly the introduction of key commander cards that could offer some specific tactical bonus e.g Urquart, Browning, Frost, Bittrich, Sosabowski etc.
8. Conceal markers would be great when used with the Airborne modules & maybe we could get some Glider tokens with their own who survives the landings rule & I am sure other tokens/markers/terrain hexes could be introduced.
9. As it is an operation with multiple battles/skirmishes. maybe it could have experience upgrades for troops brought in to the next linked scenario or on successful defenses/attacks.

As you can probably tell I would love to see this theme for an expansion. Not least because I love the Arnhem scenario but also I think it would make very solid expansion material.

I would also like to see a D-Day set/expansion. Once again the potential is brilliant. Gimme more British Paratroopers at Pegasus bridge or Commandos on the beaches.

Anyway time to come down from the clouds.

Chim

Thread: Stavelot Express Report

scottandkimr — 2008-05-07T03:14:28+00:00

I played Stavelot Express scenario for the first time a couple of days ago and it is a good scenario. There are quite a few strategic and tactical options available for both sides. The German forces have a lot more speed and firepower than the Americans but the scoring gives the Americans a good shot at victory. I put a fair amount of thought into the game before playing as Americans and thought I would share some of strategy in the game and the results.

Scoring

A key to playing this scenario well is to understand the scoring system. I know when I first looked at it from an American perspective, my initial reaction was to just place the American trucks on the far northern American hexes and have them move safely off the board. But that is probably not the best way to beat the Germans, giving all their scoring options. Anyway, when I dug down about this is what I determined.

The Germans have a potential of 53 points available. They can come from these sources:
• 20 points from Tanks. 10 tanks can exit the map for 2 points each.
• 6 points from half tracks. 6 half tracks can exit the board at 1 point each.
• 5 points from the first victory marker (on 3A). The first victory marker allows for 1 point per round. If the fastest German vehicle, the half-track, moved at its full speed and encountered no resistance, it could theoretically get to the first victory hex by round 3. If the Germans retained control for 5 rounds, they could get 5 points total.
• 7 points for the victory marker on 1A. If the fastest German vehicle, the half-track, moved at its full speed and encountered no resistance, it could theoretically get to the victory hex on 1A by the end of round 1. If the Germans retained control for 7 rounds, they could get 7 points total.
• 10 points from the hex with two victory markers on 10A. If the fastest German vehicle, the half-track (move 7), moved at its full speed and encountered no resistance, it could theoretically get to the victory hex on 10A by round 3. If the Germans retained control for 5 rounds, they could get 10 points total.
• 5 points are available to the Germans if they capture the 5 point command marker.

The Americans can score up to 35 points. They can come from these sources:
• 12 points from trucks exiting the map. The Americans have 6 trucks worth 2 points each when they exit.
• 14 from half tracks staying on forward map boards. The Americans have 4 half tracks. They score ½ point per half track for each round they end on the board. 2 points/ round for 7 rounds is 14 points.
• 21 points from trucks staying on forward maps. The Americans have 6 trucks. They score ½ point per truck for each round they end on the forward board maps. 3 points/ round for 7 rounds is 14 points.

Use of the trucks take special consideration. It will take a minimum of 4 rounds for the trucks (at movement 4) to move from the most favorable edge of the forward map boards (1A and 11A) and exit the game altogether. So, if they can stay on the forward maps for 3 rounds they would accumulate 9 points. Then they would get an additional 12 for exiting the map. That comes to 21, which is a wash with keeping them on the forward board for the whole game. It is important to remember, though, that if your trucks are in danger and you expect that they will have to vacate hexes 1A and 11A, then you need to start that evacuation no later than round 4 if you want to make it off the board.

The Choke Point Defense (American Strategy)

The Americans face a problem of combating tanks without having any tanks or anti-tank guns (from Desert Fox) of their own. Not only does this mean that the Americans lack equal relative firepower, but range is just as much a problem. Also, putting infantry in buildings makes them sitting ducks for the tanks’ concussive power, so viable cover is limited. The anti-tank squads and machine gun squads need to be at least 3 hexes away to be in normal range. Anyway, what this means is that to combat or slow down the tanks means that the infantry has to get close. Anti-tank and MG squads need to be 3 hexes away to good attacks and non-specialized squads need to be adjacent unless they are on a hill, in which case they can be 2 hexes away.

There are more places to defend than the Americans have adequate resources to defend. That means the Americans will need to choose their strategic goals carefully and concentrate forces in the places that best advance those goals. I chose to make my main stand at a choke point on the second set of boards (second from the German perspective), the 7A, 1A, and 11A set of boards. The two hexes are on 1A. With all the buildings and the tank traps, the Germans are going to be forced to either go through those two hexes or spend three movement points entering the forest hexes on their far left flank. Forcing them to go the forest route is a victory in itself for the Americans, as that slows down the tanks (a Tiger has only 5 movement to begin with) and draws them away from map boards 1A and 11A, where I wanted to have their halftracks and vulnerable trucks gathering victory points. The Germans can shoot through a couple of hexes on 1A and 11A unless the Americans take care of that with smoke.

In our session I used this strategy with good success. As my first activations I used the engineers to smoke the two tank trap hexes on 1A and 11A, which blocked German LOS through those hexes. I then moved the engineers back. I used them the rest of the game primarily for their smoke to block LOS to the trucks, which I had sit on the victory map boards for 3 rounds. For the most part I kept squads behind buildings (to avoid the tank concussive firepower) and out of LOS until the Germans were in position for the squads to get close range attacks. The exceptions were concealed squads with anti-tank specializations, which I put in the 2 building overlay on 1A. I kept them from firing at German infantry or halftracks for quite awhile, which caused the Germans to hesitate with their tanks. They kept most of their tanks back in their territory for a few rounds out of fear of the anti-tank squads. I also had some guys in the forest, as one forest hex gives good LOS to a 3 hex corridor but is out of LOS from most other angles. It is a good place to put MG or AT squads in op fire.

Anyway, the strategy worked well. We played to round 5, at which point the Germans were essentially checkmated. I had accumulated 15 victory points or so by that point and the Germans had only accumulated 3. Because several of their vehicles, including a couple of Tiger, were heavily damaged (and unable to move) and so many others had been so delayed that they could not make it off the board by the end of round 8, the Germans could not score. Once I had heavily damaged a vehicle, I left it alone and focused on other vehicles, as heavily damaging a vehicle means it cannot move, which means the Germans can get no victory points from it. I had lost 1 truck, but the others were well on their way off the board and in little danger, so I was looking at another 10 victory points from that in addition to points remaining halftracks would receive (I think I had 2 left at that point).

The Germans also had not captured the 5 victory point command marker by the end of round 5, so it disappeared. He did manage to get a halftrack there on round 5, but I was able to assault and destroy it, so he did not have control at the end of the round.

Anyway, the Choke Point Defense worked well in this circumstance. The German player afteward said he should have been more aggressive in spite of the concealed anti-tank squads and he should have rushed earlier.

Scott

Thread: Re: Ok.. let's go for mini ASL variant rules!

kixdsky — 2008-05-07T01:30:57+00:00

To tie into what Matthew said, suppressive fire is basic infantry tactics that all soldiers learn in basic training. "I'll cover, you move." which literally translates to "I'll shoot enough lead in the enemy's direction so you can move to the next patch of cover."

If Tide of Iron got one thing right in it's design, it's the rules for suppressive fire.

Thread: Re: Ok.. let's go for mini ASL variant rules!

Burnham — 2008-05-07T01:06:02+00:00

...and the biggie... all fire is "normal" with suppressive fire coming into play if more than one hit sustained. So no silly choices as to whether to aim to kill, or just fill the air with lead to scare 'em. Surely you're always trying to kill if possible, but keeping their heads down or making em run away is a bonus??
A couple points, first off, you've clearly not played the game enough if you think that suppressing fire is useless. Second, suppressing fire is an actual tactic used. The point isn't to kill the enemy (though if by chance, they happen to, that's a bonus), the point is to keep the enemies heads down so they'll ease up on shooting at *certain person/people* so they can accomplish a specific goal (such as get from *here* to *there* for example).
If I remember correctly, there's some good examples of suppressing fire in "Band of Brothers".

Thread: Re: Ok.. let's go for mini ASL variant rules!

fellonmyhead — 2008-05-07T12:54:09+00:00

Chou4555 wrote:

...and the biggie... all fire is "normal" with suppressive fire coming into play if more than one hit sustained. So no silly choices as to whether to aim to kill, or just fill the air with lead to scare 'em. Surely you're always trying to kill if possible, but keeping their heads down or making em run away is a bonus??

Actually no; frequently you are trying to keep the enemies' heads down so you can manoeuvre your own men into a better position to make the kill. If anything it shold work the other way round insofar as suppressive fire should kill on occassion.

Chou4555 wrote:
Hey.. don't chastise me too much.. I resisted armour facing rules after all....

I would personally prefer armour facing rules than all of the above as they would reflect armoured tactics a little better than the current ruleset, whereas the differences induced by most of your suggestions don't really improve anything. The trouble is would I really want to complicate things that much? I don't think so - not for ToI at least.

Thread: Ok.. let's go for mini ASL variant rules!

Chou4555 — 2008-05-07T12:33:44+00:00

I know I'll be shot for this, but I had a couple of very good games with the first scenario using the following rules, to bring in the sensible, and the best of "basic"ASL:

OP fire versus moving infantry = -2 cover (where cover becomes negative, give extra black die to the attacker).

Area fire versus infantry in wood = -2 instead of +2.

The Medic speciality: auto healing, once per turn, nothing else. (Anyone got any sensible ideas how to make this speciality in anyway more "realistic"??

Leaders: re-roll one attack or defence die plus usual

Engineers: +2 in adjacent comabat with infantry, or armour.

...and the biggie... all fire is "normal" with suppressive fire coming into play if more than one hit sustained. So no silly choices as to whether to aim to kill, or just fill the air with lead to scare 'em. Surely you're always trying to kill if possible, but keeping their heads down or making em run away is a bonus??

Controversial? Sure? Fun, yes, and troops can quickly be demolished.. play balance? yes, truly buggered, but popular with the team I play with.

Hey.. don't chastise me too much.. I resisted armour facing rules after all....

Thread: Re: Tide of Iron – The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

Chou4555 — 2008-05-07T12:22:55+00:00

Hi Folks. An interesting string!

I picked up the game as a halfway house between Memoir 44 (too basic/random)and Squad leader (too many rules to remember when you get to ASL basic expansion #3.

I found that it fits the Bill for me in all but a very few places. In fact there are only a few ugly bits, that I cannot ignore, as a hangover from ASL.. namely

the Medic speciality? How soppy is that? I know we can't expect too much realism in a game of this sort, but healing suqds in the field in the short space of a mini-battle, and making them less pervious to suppressive fire??

Secondly, artillery, mortars and area fire on woods. We all saw the effect of that in the Band of Brothers episode outside Bastogne. Trees are a positive danger, not a help when shelled!

Finally, OP fire upon moving troops, especially those moving in the open, must be penalised more than it is! At least an extra black die or two!

But.. much more Good than bad, and not particularly ugly in my book!

Thread: Re: Tide of Iron: For the Motherland

Sarge77 — 2008-05-06T12:17:37+00:00

Tide of Iron: War at Sea :wow:

Would love to see a naval version of this game system. That would be cool. May be to big to do on TOI's small scale. Could be modified though.

I vote for an expansion involving the Pacific. Eastern front a bore to me. Just my opinion.

Thread: Re: Tide of Iron: For the Motherland

Chimaera — 2008-05-05T11:35:42+00:00

On review comments not truly appropriate to this thread.

Thread: Re: half hex question

cooler king — 2008-05-05T11:09:20+00:00

Yes, while half-hexes around the edge of the whole map are unplayable, whole hexes made up of two half-hexes on two adjoining boards are fully playable.
Additionally, if that hex is a VP, reinforcement, exit or setup hex it can be used as a VP, setup/exit/reinforcement hex for either board, but not both. Therefore you get your 1/2VP for each vehicle only once :devil:

Thread: half hex question

scottandkimr — 2008-05-05T08:54:03+00:00

The Stavelot Express scenario provides that the Americans get 1/2 point per transport unit on 1A and/or 11A. Do the half hexes between these and other map boards count too? For example, there is a half hex between 1A and 3A. If a transport were on that hex (half a hex on 1A and half a hex on 3A), would the American get the half point? I would say yes, but curious about whether anyone has a definite answer.

Thanks!

Image

That_Quiz_Guy — 2008-05-05T08:56:27+00:00

American Machine Gun Team, Straight Out Of The Box