Game: Traders of Carthage, The

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diddle74 — 2008-09-06T02:32:18+00:00

playing

Thread: Re: Makes a fantastic 2-player game

ooogene — 2008-09-04T02:12:32+00:00

This game is great 2 player! Though I like it with 3 or 4 as well, it is more chaotic that way. I love the timing aspect, trying to set yourself up while not setting your opponent up. Solid thumbs up.

Thread: Re: First Impressions as a Gateway Game

ooogene — 2008-09-04T01:24:12+00:00

I'm really liking this game right now, especially as a two player game! The scoring is the most difficult part to explain, because by the time you get to "divide by 5" you've lost people. I explained it the other night like this: Highest valued card + number of chits = a number. You score according to where that number falls. 1-5 is 1 point. 6-10 is 2 points. 11-15 is 3 points. 16-20 is 4 points. And so on....

Thread: Re: Rules mistake variant

Thomas_de_Monet — 2008-08-28T21:00:56+00:00

I covered this in my Pirate Variant Three thread here:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/334950

It makes a HUGE difference actually.

You'll see as soon as you play the right way.

Have fun!

Stu

Thread: Rules mistake variant

Peepser — 2008-08-26T15:02:15+00:00

First game last night. Played it wrong. Each time a ship got moved into a pirate square, the ship got raided. If a ship was on the first pirate space and moved 2 spaces to Carthage, no raiding.

Game ended tied with 12 vps each, and 8 achievements each. Today, we'll try it the correct way, and only have pirate raids when a ship reaches Carthage. Don't know how much difference this is going to have, but I suspect we'll be holding a lot more cards in hand in preparation for a ship reaching Carthage, causing all ships on pirates spaces to get raided.

Our 'mistake' method seemed to work fine, though we were a bit surprised at the tie score.

Thread: Re: Makes a fantastic 2-player game

Peepser — 2008-08-25T21:43:55+00:00

I just bought this game and read the rules last night. One of the first games in a long time that took only one reading of the rules, and I understood everything. Yet, there is depth here. The cards look great, the art on them and the board itself is really top notch and makes this feel like it's worth more than $19. Looking forward to trying this out tonight! Once again, Z-Man delivers a great looking and packaged game.

Thread: Re: Makes a fantastic 2-player game

Hertzog — 2008-08-25T19:06:31+00:00

Thanks for writing this review!

I was almost certain that this game would appeal to my group of players, but the fact that it also scales well to 2 players makes this an inevitable purchase for me, as I always look for good 2 player games.

Happy farming/marketing/reserving/amphora-ing/buccaneering

Thread: Re: Makes a fantastic 2-player game

wwscrispin — 2008-08-25T15:24:15+00:00

I just got this and finished reading/understanding the rules. This does seem like a good 2P game. I want to play this in the next couple of days. There seems like a lot going on in a small game.

Thread: Makes a fantastic 2-player game

dwrigley — 2008-08-25T14:01:31+00:00

I don't often review games, but felt it worthwhile for this particular little gem, especially as there are only a few reviews so far, and I did want to recommend it to others.

This is a Z-man game, and comes in a small, extremely sturdy box, which holds the deck of cards, a bag of Achievement chips, the wooden player pieces, and a set of wooden ships, together with the game board; which itself is thick and very high quality. All the parts are well designed and graphically look good .... and I must admit to liking wooden pieces in my games!

I won't run over the rules in detail but will try and summarise enoght to give you hopefully a flavour of the decisions to be made. You are a trader and you will try and buy goods from the market of up to 4 different types (grapes, silk, jewels, and wheat), and have them shipped from the port of Alexandria, to the port of Carthage. Each good type has its own colour ship, and it takes the ship up to 5 moves to make it from one port to the other. Each time a player buys goods, the ship moves closer to the destination port - if you bought 1 good, then the ship moves 1 space; if you bought 2 or more goods, then the ship moves 2 spaces.
When the ship gets to Carthage, all the goods of that type for all players are sold, and points awarded, and an achievement chip given to each player who managed to ship goods of this type. The points are in the form of the cards themselves.

The game ends as soon as a player gets 8 achievement chips - and the player with the most points wins!

Sounds a bit easy and a little pedestrian doesn't it?

I thought so too ... until after I played my first game, and then I was hooked.

The cards themselves, in the grand tradition of these things, represent a number of things, either the goods themselves, as the cards are in 1 of 4 colours; a value of the goods, as the cards have a coin symbol of either 5, 3 or 2; money (the coin symbols are used here as well); or can be used to store goods, using the jar/amphora symbol on the cards.

With the use as points - that is 5 uses of a single card ... it must be a record!!

Five cards are dealt face up into the Market, and 3 cards face-up into the Farm. The farm will be moved into the Market when all the cards in the Market are taken ... so you get a heads-up and need to plan your future moves. An additional 2 cards are added to the Market when the Farm is moved to the Market (so there will always be at least 5 cards in the Market). You can never therefore be 100% certain of what is coming up. I am sure the 'randomness' of dealt cards will put off many players ... but I personally do like that degree of chance/unexpectedness to spice things up!

Enough of this!

How does it play?

On your turn you can either take a Card from the Market into your hand as Money, place a reservation marker on the Farm or Market (which means only you can take that card, and be careful, as you only have one reservation marker until it gets returned) or buy all the cards in the Msrket. To buy, you need money, as you take a card as money, then the cost of what is left in the market goes down, and is easier for another player to then buy. Placing a reservation marker also makes it easier for the next player to buy the market. If the other player buys the market - then you get left with a new market, and, unless you have lots of money, a hard task to buy it. As buying the market also moves the ships. you may not want to move a ship that other players have lots of goods on - since you may be helping them and not you. There is definitely some thinking needed here, especially as the designer has thrown in another variable to the pot ... that of Pirates

When a ship reaches Carthage, and players sell goods and receive points, any ships that are in transit and on two special pirate spaces, are raided and players will lose all their goods of that type unless they have been stored. All players get the option of discarding cards from their hand, of the appropriate colour, and with the 'amphora/jar' symbol. You can store as many goods as you have the cards for (and of course you then lose these, and the money they also represent ... but at least the goods are saved from the deprivations of the pirates for the rest of the journey to port)

Am I making sense?

It can make for some very interesting decisions ... and it is all down to making the right Market buys, hence ship moves, at the right time to hit the other players with Pirates. Therefore you may have to reserve, or take cards as money which are not the most obvious (ie highest value) simply in order to reduce the cards of a particular type and therefore restrict other players' Market buys. I know I am probably not explaining this very well

The game plays 2 to 4 players, and I would say that it makes a fantatsic 2-player game. My wife likes this a lot, and so it hits the table quite frequently. It is quick to play, and there are plenty of things to think about and plenty of decisions.

It is physically small, so makes a great travel game, and does not take up much table space. A great game, and was well worth the buy. I would highly recommend this to anyone.

Thread: Re: Pirate Variant Three

Thomas_de_Monet — 2008-08-23T07:29:01+00:00

It depends on how you read the raided rule....

We only move ships back if the pirates are successful and get something off it.

So if the Red ship is raided and three players have red merchandise and all three are able to store all their goods so the pirates don't get anything, then the ship stays put. This way just made sense to us - why would a ship who was effectively left alone by the pirates go back to port?

Also, another way we have been playing is to not use the movement restriction of a maximum of two spaces. If you buy 4 cards of green merchandise, then green moves 4. Its a subtle difference, but it changes EVERYTHING! Try it out.

Thanks for the comment!

Thread: Re: Pirate Variant Three

Choubi — 2008-08-22T17:15:45+00:00

I haven't played the game yet and don't have it but it seems to me that there are two pirat spaces in a row on the board and since the boats are limited to 2 spaces advance each time, it seems every boat would stop on one pirate space and need to go back and therefore no boats could come in at carthage.

I might be wrong, as I said, my only knowledge of this game is through the rules I've read on internet and the photos on BGG...

Thread: Pirate Variant Three

Thomas_de_Monet — 2008-08-22T06:58:00+00:00

Again, not a fix for this game - it doesn't need fixing - just a different way to play.

This one is simple.

When a ship lands on a pirate space on the board (ie: stops there), the pirates attack that ship.

Follow the pirating rules.

Thats it.

Let me know what you think!

Stu

Image

Bola! — 2008-08-21T01:53:00+00:00

Player pieces, in some unusual colors

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Bola! — 2008-08-21T01:52:09+00:00

Merchant ships sail the foamy seas

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Bola! — 2008-08-20T12:30:50+00:00

Achievement tokens for the four commodities

Thread: Re: VPs?

Psauberer — 2008-08-19T20:20:51+00:00

oridyne wrote:
VP's are calculated on the payday as follows:

When a ship or ships enters Carthage there is a payday on goods the same colour as the ship.

You look at all the goods you have of that colour, take the highest valued card and times it by the number of cards you have of that colour and round up to the nearest 5 or 10.
e.g. If you have 4 red cards valued 2,2,3,3 then you would score 15.

You then place cards in your VP stack starting with the lowest value for every 5 VP's you have, if you do not have enough good cards to convert to VP you take them from the draw pile. You also collect an Achievement Token for that colour good. Achievement tokens add 1 point to the highest value card when calculating your VP’s. Then ships then return to Alexandria.

But once you have your stack of VP cards their value does not matter it becomes who has the most cards in their stack is the winner at the end of the game.

My mistake. I forgot that it is the highest value card that counts for the figuring of VPs.

Thread: Re: VPs?

oridyne — 2008-08-19T19:29:36+00:00

VP's are calculated on the payday as follows:

When a ship or ships enters Carthage there is a payday on goods the same colour as the ship.

You look at all the goods you have of that colour, take the highest valued card and times it by the number of cards you have of that colour and round up to the nearest 5 or 10.
e.g. If you have 4 red cards valued 2,2,3,3 then you would score 15.

You then place cards in your VP stack starting with the lowest value for every 5 VP's you have, if you do not have enough good cards to convert to VP you take them from the draw pile. You also collect an Achievement Token for that colour good. Achievement tokens add 1 point to the highest value card when calculating your VP’s. Then ships then return to Alexandria.

But once you have your stack of VP cards their value does not matter it becomes who has the most cards in their stack is the winner at the end of the game.

Thread: Re: VPs?

Thomas_de_Monet — 2008-08-19T05:08:36+00:00

Psauberer wrote:
The way I understand is that each card is worth 1 VP. You get the VP cards by totalling the coin value of the cards and dividing by 5. Round up and that is how many cards you keep out of the stack you are selling. If you don't have enough cards from what you are selling take from the draw deck however many you need to make up that "coin value/5" amount.

Yep, thats right.

I believe that the order of which cards you keep is there to make the later purchases tougher than the early ones. If you are taking the lower value cards out of circulation then the average value of the market will be higher. It should also even out the luck of the draw a bit as the game goes on.

It also makes it a lot harder to protect your merchandise from pirates since the 2s and the 3s have the jugs on them.

Thread: Re: VPs?

Psauberer — 2008-08-18T19:37:04+00:00

The way I understand is that each card is worth 1 VP. You get the VP cards by totalling the coin value of the cards and dividing by 5. Round up and that is how many cards you keep out of the stack you are selling. If you don't have enough cards from what you are selling take from the draw deck however many you need to make up that "coin value/5" amount.

I believe that ther order of which cards you keep is there to make the later purchases tougher than the early ones. If you are taking the lower value cards out of circulation then the average value of the market will be higher. It should also even out the luck of the draw a bit as the game goes on.

The faq says to guess the VPs from the size of the stack becaiuse the cards are stacked up, not spread out. Unless you can remember exactly how many cards each player has collected, judging the relative size of the stacks is the best way to get a rough idea of where everybody stands.

Thread: Re: VPs?

Verkisto — 2008-08-18T19:26:22+00:00

I think you round up all VPs to the nearest 5 points, with each face-down card being worth 5 points apiece. All I've done is read the rules, though, so there's a good chance I'm way off the mark. But that's how I understand the rules based on what I read.

Thread: VPs?

alicious — 2008-08-18T19:15:03+00:00

Maybe I haven't read it right, but the rulebook seems ambiguous about VPs - is each face down card worth one point, or is it worth its coin value? I'm thinking each is worth a single point since there are examples given that suggest this ("brown player gets 3 + 1 = 4VP" for example) and the language used consistently equates a single card with a single VP, but if this is so, why would it matter that the smallest value cards are set aside first, or why would the FAQ encourage players to guess VPs from the size of the stack?

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help us resolve this disagreement...

Thread: Re: Pirate Variant One

Thomas_de_Monet — 2008-08-17T05:02:56+00:00

Coyotek4 wrote:
Correct me I'm wrong (as I only played this game twice today), but pirate spaces don't get activated until someone gets to Carthage, right?

Yes, that's correct.

Does your variant imply that pirates get resolved before any ship sails to the end?

Yes, as soon as you land on the space, if its a pirate token, that ship gets raided.

If so, it would seem that one would do very well to hoard 2s. Also, it seems to make the game a heckuva lot longer.

2s would be good to have, yes. But remember, once raided, goods that have been stored are safe from pirates until you reach Carthage, no matter how many more times the pirates show up.

I don't think it would make the game any longer, since once you are raided and saved some merchandise, you are safe - but - I have yet to actually try this as I have been busy with other stuff since I posted this variant.

Anyone actually tried it yet?

Thread: Re: Pirate Variant One

Coyotek4 — 2008-08-17T01:38:47+00:00

Correct me I'm wrong (as I only played this game twice today), but pirate spaces don't get activated until someone gets to Carthage, right?

Does your variant imply that pirates get resolved before any ship sails to the end? If so, it would seem that one would do very well to hoard 2s. Also, it seems to make the game a heckuva lot longer.

Thread: Re: Any strategies or tips?

Coyotek4 — 2008-08-17T01:35:14+00:00

I played this for the first time today. Two 4-player games; somehow I won both, the 2nd by a score of 13-12-12-9.

Some thoughts that come to mind:

1) Take cards as money which you do not want to see shipped. This is easy when the card in question is a 5, but sometimes it pays to grab a 3 or even a 2 to stop a color that others have much of from travelling too far.

2) Timely placing of the reserve chip is crucial. Again, it allows you to block a particular color from shipping (especially if you can't afford to buy out the cargo at the time); also, it can be a 'waiting move' for you (placing in the farm territory), forcing someone else to make a difficult decision. (Early on, I like reserving a '5' from the farm; later on, though, the action used to claim such a card seems too costly, as the game will often end before your turn comes around again.)

Thread: Re: Pirate Variant Two

Thomas_de_Monet — 2008-08-16T00:30:17+00:00

The two variants I posted came about in the few minutes of cleanup time after a game last night so I have yet to try either of them.

I never thought of mixing them together..... interesting.

Thanks for the comments!

Thread: Re: Pirate Variant Two

trixie1129 — 2008-08-15T20:57:24+00:00

Have you tried this in an actual game? If so, how did this variant play? Would you mix it with the other variant?

Thread: Re: Pirate Variant One

trixie1129 — 2008-08-15T20:54:00+00:00

Interesting variant to Traders of Carthage game. I'll give it a try. Have been playing this game at least twice a day for the past two weeks. It took a couple of plays to get down the scoring. However, if you haven't played the game yet, don't give up on it. This game is very deep in strategy!

Thread: Pirate Variant Two

Thomas_de_Monet — 2008-08-15T05:35:00+00:00

This awesome games needs no "fixing" - this is just for more fun....

Make up 4 tokens the size of the ports on the board - 1 of each of the goods.

Place all 4 tokens face down and shuffle, then place 2 tokens face down on the pirate spaces on the map. The remaining 2 tokens are kept face down at the side of the map.

When a ship lands on a token, turn the token over.

The pirates now raid whatever ship that color is, regardless of where the ship is on the map.

Once that turn is completed, place the turned up token(s) face down with the tokens at the side of the board, shuffle them around and place the token(s) from this pile onto the now empty space(s) on the map.

Let me know what you think!

Thread: Pirate Variant One

Thomas_de_Monet — 2008-08-15T05:30:01+00:00

This awesome games needs no "fixing" - this is just for more fun....

Make up 6 tokens the size of the ports on the board - 3 safe harbors and 3 pirates.

Place all 6 tokens face down and shuffle, then place 4 tokens face down on the ports between Alexandria and Carthage. The remaining two tokens are kept face down at the side of the map.

When a ship lands on a token, turn the token over.

If it is a safe harbor, nothing happens.

If it is a pirate, follow the rules for pirates.

Once that turn is completed, place the turned up token(s) face down with the tokens at the side of the board, shuffle them around and place the token(s) from this pile onto the now empty space(s) on the map.

Let me know what you think!

Thread: Re: a very cool card game

aforandy — 2008-08-14T00:08:33+00:00

voynix wrote:
I give it a solid 8.0

me too, but lets say its an erratic 8 because the luck element of one card replenishment can decide a game eg. you get five market cards of the same colour which are immediately bought & scored.

Thread: Re: a very cool card game

voynix — 2008-08-13T20:21:34+00:00

Absolutely! Indeed I did not really get into that because I don't want to bore everyone with the details of every rule. Nonetheless, I totally agree. If you don't get to keep all your market cards as VP's, you keep the lower value cards and D/C the higher ones; if you actually get more VP's than you have in sold market cards (via achievement token bonuses), you take the additional VP cards straight from the draw deck. Thanks for clarifying

Thread: Re: a very cool card game

Aging One — 2008-08-13T20:10:12+00:00

So lets say the blue ship makes it to Carthage and a player has 3 blue cards (values 2,2,3), that player gets: highest card value (3) X #of cards (3) equals (9) rounded up to the nearest 5 (10) divided by 5 which equals 2 VP's. Thus 2 of the 3 cards are turned face-down into the VP pile.

Actually, I believe it would be the two LOWEST value cards are turned face-down into the player's VP pile and the third card, the '3' is discarded. And, if the number of VP cards the player is entitled to is greater than the number of cards sold in Carthage, I believe the player takes the difference from the card draw pile.

Thread: a very cool card game

voynix — 2008-08-13T19:38:34+00:00

]]>
Traders of Carthage is a game where players buy goods from the market. These goods are then sold when the ship for that particular good reaches Carthage.

The Goods
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There are 4 different goods, each represented as a certain color card. Each card has a value of 2,3, or 5. Higher value cards are worth more, but lower value cards allow for better storage against pirates. Cards are used as goods which are sold when the ship carrying that good enters Carthage. Cards are also used as money used to purchase more cards (goods).

The Market and Farm
The market is represented by a row of 5 face-up cards. A player on his turn may a) buy all the cards remaining in the market or b) take a single card from the market into your hand. Cards in hand are exclusively used as money. The value on the card equals its monetary value. When goods cards are purchased from the market, they are placed face-up before the player. When market cards are purchased, the ships will move (see below).

Above the market resides the farm. This is represented by 3 face-up cards . When the market is empty, these 3 farm cards are moved to the market and 2 new cards are added to the market. Then 3 new farm cards are drawn

The Board
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The board represents a map of North Africa and 6 ports. Ships start in Alexandria and move westward to Carthage. When a ship makes it to Carthage, all players sell that particular good (i.e., when the green wine ship lands at Carthage, all green wine cards are sold). Ships are moved when any player buys market cards. A ship moves westward 1 port space if a card of that ship's color is bought; ships will move 2 spaces if 2 or more cards are bought of that color. When a ship(s) lands in Carthage, it is returned to Alexandria after the sale.

Pirates
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When a ship(s) make a sale, any ships on the 2 spaces just prior to Carthage are plundered by pirates. If this is the case, players lose all goods of that plundered ship's color. To minimize losses, players can store goods by discarding market cards with 1 or 2 pots on them (value 2 cards have 2 pots, value 3 cards have 1 pot). 1 card gets stored for each pot icon. Note the lower value cards have a better storage capacity.

Scoring
When a ship(s) lands at Carthage, all goods of that color are sold and scored. VP's are represented by face-down goods cards kept in a separate pile. The number of VP's (cards) a player gets equals the value of his highest value card being sold X the number of cards of that particular good being sold rounded up to the nearest 5, then divided by 5.

So lets say the blue ship makes it to Carthage and a player has 3 blue cards (values 2,2,3), that player gets: highest card value (3) X #of cards (3) equals (9) rounded up to the nearest 5 (10) divided by 5 which equals 2 VP's. Thus 2 of the 3 cards are turned face-down into the VP pile.

Achievement Tokens
For each sale of a particular good, a player receives an achievement token matching that good. Each achievement token adds 1 to the highest value card in a set of goods being sold. So in the above example, if a player had 1 blue achievement token, he would get:

highest value card 3 + 1 (4) X #of cards # (3) equals 12, rounded up to the nearest 5 (15) divided by 2 equals 3 VP cards.

Note that the game ends when any player receives his eighth achievement token.

Reserving Cards
A player can perform 1 of 3 actions on his turn. The first 2 are mentioned above: 1) buy (all) market cards or 2) take a single market card into hand (to be used as money). The third action is to place a reservation token on any card in the market or farm. By doing this you are guarenteed that card in that no one else can get it. This means that when a player buys all market cards, he is buying all market cards that are not reserved or contains that players reserve token. Each player gets 1 reservation token

My Overall Impression
This is a very interesting game with interesting choices. Its not just about hoarding market cards. The trick is to realize where the ships move as a consequence of acquiring market cards. Ideally, you want to try to score ships where your opponent has minimal or (even better) no goods of that type. At the same time, you want to strategically position the ships so that after a sale, there are ships located in the pirate zones, which in turn cause significant loss to your opponent(s) while only minimizing your own loss. You want to take certain colored cards into your hand (as money) if you don't want that particular color ship to move. Further manipulation can be done by clever use of the reserve tokens.

The more I play this game, the more I really like it. The strategies are somewhat deep. You can really mess up your opponent with careful manipulation of the ships. The game itself takes about 30-45 minutes with 2 players. Admittedly I have not played it with more than 2, but my gut feeling is that I would like it best with 2, since each player has more control over the ships (in a 4 player game, it seems there will be too much happening before your next turn to really be able plan ahead).

The game comes with a nice board and nice wood tokens. The cards are thin; I recommend card sleeves (as usual). The game is pretty small overall and would make an excellent travel game. In fact, this is one of my favorite 2 player card games (I consider it a card game even though it technically has a board). For comparison, some other card games I really enjoy are Up Front, St. Petersburg, Settlers of Catan Card Game, San Juan and Race for the Galaxy.

I give it a solid 8.0

Image

Piazza31 — 2008-08-10T17:11:49+00:00

The ships race towards a safe harbour.

Thread: Re: 10 reasons why you should buy Traders of Carthage

Verkisto — 2008-08-08T12:50:31+00:00

Ajax wrote:
ekted wrote:
skeletodoc wrote:
BTW, the card quality is cheapo...
Can you compare them to another game I might know? I am on the fence with this game, and card quality could easily push me over.

Akin to Pandemic and Escalation! , but nowhere near as bad as Corsari. As far as I can tell, anyway...

The cards are of a thick enough quality (not quite as thick as those in Pandemic, but not NEARLY as thick as R-Eco, or as thin as Corsari), but the coating seemed uneven to me. Maybe I got a copy from a bad print run, but the cards, though coated, were a bit rough, and dusty. Does that make sense?

Regardless, they shuffle well, and will probably hold up to repeated playings.

Thread: Re: Pink Pieces????

Verkisto — 2008-08-08T12:44:23+00:00

masdero wrote:
The cooked-ham hamburgers is a product you can find here in Italy "Teneroni" by "Casa Modena":

Lordy. That looks nasty. And the idea of eating that much ham....

bleargh

Thread: Re: First Impressions as a Gateway Game

atholbrose — 2008-08-07T13:56:12+00:00

I've taught this game to three different groups now. In all three, there was eye-rolling at the scoring rules, and in all three it was second nature by the end of the game, with people just saying "for three VP" and putting the cards in their score pile. It's just really not that complicated.

Then again, I've never seen what was so complicated about Lost Cities' scoring, either.

Thread: Re: First Impressions as a Gateway Game

Isamoor — 2008-08-06T22:54:20+00:00

Lost Cities has an equally annoying score calculation. Lost Cities pretty much only has the score calculation though, there aren't really many other things to worry about.

I can't see that complicated of scoring working in a game that has as many systems as Carthage does. I think most gamers' eyes would just gloss over at that point.

Nice review though.

Thread: Re: First Impressions as a Gateway Game

christophyr — 2008-08-06T19:57:59+00:00

Aha, enlightenment!

I'll need to run that idea past the girlfriend and see if she buys it.

Thanks for the perspective!

Thread: Re: First Impressions as a Gateway Game

atholbrose — 2008-08-06T17:40:43+00:00

I thought the whole thing about taking money directly from the Market was clever, and pretty thematic; if you do that, you've sold that good locally to gather funds to ship some other goods off to Carthage.

Thread: Re: First Impressions as a Gateway Game

Bateman — 2008-08-06T01:50:12+00:00

christophyr wrote:

Multiplying, then rounding, then dividing...and then possibly getting more cards as VP than the number you turned in...it seemed very kludgey, and we both thought there had to be a better way to go about it.

I have received some raised eyebrows when explaining the VP formula for this game as well. It seems unnecessarily complicated at first, but I think it works well in that it encourages: 1) focusing on collecting one color of good, 2) competition for the 5-value cards of a particular good, and 3) selling the the same good multiple times.

Incidentally, this could be considered thematically satisfying as well, as it encourages you, as a merchant, to specialize in selling a particular type of good (set collection), to try to produce the best quality of that good possible (value-5 collection), and rewards you for continued dealings in the same good, i.e. the people of Carthage come to recognize you as the go-to guy for grapes or gems or whatever (achievement tiles).

Considering these factors, I think that simplifying the formula would weaken both mechanics and theme. A good solution, I think, is a small player aid summarizing the VP formula. After one play it wouldn't be necessary, but it sure would help in teaching the game.

Thread: Re: Traders of Carthage -- First Impressions as a Gateway Game

ekted — 2008-08-05T22:32:21+00:00

christophyr wrote:
And quadruple-purpose cards, well, that's just showing off!
See also Oltremare - Merchants of Venice

Thread: First Impressions as a Gateway Game

christophyr — 2008-08-05T21:49:57+00:00

My first session of Traders of Carthage was a 2-player game with a casual gamer, so what follows is a "first impression" review geared toward the game as a gateway experience. Others have explained the game rules and components already, so I'll skip over that.

Introducing the Game

There were some bumps along the way, but I can say the session was a limited success. It earns big points right out of the starting gate for (a) having a very dark/vibrant/pretty color scheme without any cartoony art, (b) being small with very few moving parts, and therefore not being an intimidating game when laid out on the table, and (c) for having a listed play time of 30 minutes. Even if she didn't like it, the girlfriend was willing to give up 30 minutes to find that out.

On my first reading of the rules, the game seemed fairly simple, with a weird bit of math for payday Victory Points but nothing too strenuous. That's one of the reasons I decided this was the game to try, instead of something more complex. Unfortunately, it's a bit easier to absorb rules at a casual reading pace outside a gaming environment than when you're sitting at a table hearing them aloud for the first time. After I thought I might have filled the memory stack, I decided to save the payday and VP explanation for our first payday, after the game was underway.

There were a couple expected conceptual stumbling blocks that were overcome after a few turns. No, you don't own one particular ship, you make them all move, and yes, all players get a payday when one player moves a ship into Carthage. Yes, these cards are goods, so the color matters. And they're money, in which case the color doesn't matter. And they're Victory Points, so you flip them over and don't even care about the numbers anymore. And they're proof against pirates, so color and the urn icons matter.

Theme and VP Issues

After a few rounds, the ideas fell into place from a mechanical standpoint, but there was some grumbling about thematic reasoning. She prefers abstract games, but if she's going to play a themed game then the things you're doing should be analogous to something. Merchandise going from the farm to the market makes sense, and reserving cards could even be seen as making special deals with farmers and merchants, but why do you just get to take money for nothing? Why don't you have to sell your goods for money? Why do the ships flow in one direction only? She was having none of it.

And of course the payday conversion to VP was our final hurdle...let's just say that math was an unwelcome guest at the party, even if it was simple math. Multiplying, then rounding, then dividing...and then possibly getting more cards as VP than the number you turned in...it seemed very kludgey, and we both thought there had to be a better way to go about it. Using the cards themselves as VP objects is an elegant concept, but I think a casual gamer would have been happier and more in their comfort zone adding up delivered goods on a scrap of paper and skipping the multiply/round/divide stuff. Eventually, though, we got past that pain and got on with the game.

Gameplay

From our early rounds, when we were just getting the hang of things, it was clear that as a 2-player game, Traders of Carthage can be very static and samey if no one brings any strategy to the table. You take turns increasing your money supply, one of you is able to buy the market first, and then blows their money on the market. The one who didn't buy the market has enough money to be the next person to buy the market, and so on. Assuming a well shuffled deck, ships progress at similar rates, and the lead ship gets a payoff while the others get pirated, the leader goes back to Alexandria to give the others a headstart, and the next color or colors get their turn...for most of the game, we were not only holding the same amount of achievement tokens, we received the same exact tokens from the same exact payday events.

At some point, though, the strategies became apparent. Collecting enough of a trailing ship color to protect yourself from pirates, or preventing your opponent from doing the same. Keeping track of other player's money so you can capture value 5 cards as merchandise before they can, or take them as money to prevent them from becoming merchandise for someone else. Using the reserve piece to help you, without being stuck with a market that's too expensive for you to buy, but cheaper for the other player. Sometimes using your reserve action merely to stall for time and see what your opponent's next move will be, or to keep them from moving one color of ship into pirate territory when they buy the market.

And all this just in a 2-player game--I'm sure there's more to consider and prepare for with more players.

Finally, we might have succumbed to a bit more analysis paralysis than was warranted in such a small scope game, but our 2-player game definitely did not play out in anything close to 30 minutes. It took north of an hour. I enjoyed figuring out a new and somewhat novel system enough that I didn't mind the time vs. game weight ratio, but it was starting to tilt the fun equation the wrong way for my partner, and she was a bit relieved when the 8th achievement token was acquired.

For all her hesitancy about the game, it ended close: 15 VP for me, 14 VP for her. When you consider that I knew the payday scoring but hadn't explained it to her until our first trip to Carthage, I would call that a draw, or even a win for her.

Conclusions

In the end, we both agreed there was a good game here, with a cumbersome VP scheme and some issues with thematic coherence. It seems that, for whatever reason, dual-purpose card mechanics tend to highlight mechanics at the expense of theme logic. And quadruple-purpose cards, well, that's just showing off!

Personally, I was a lot more enamoured of the game than the casual gamer was, and I liked the fact that it's got a "little board game" feel despite being essentially a card game with some wood scoring bits. It's unfortunate that the packaging only fit the achievement tokens when they were on unpunched sheets, and that there's no thumb cut-out on the lid to help pry the tight box open. But it's a very pretty box. Assuming repeated plays and less agonizing over each turn will bring play time down significantly, I would definitely get it to table again. And a house rule or two for simplified payday scoring might improve its chances as a gateway game as well.

[Edits: For accuracy, changed mentions of "payoff" to "payday" and changed achievement tiles to achievement tokens. Removed a mistaken statement about their usage as well. Took redundant title out of Subject.]

Thread: Re: Traders of Carthage: A Review

mreissig — 2008-08-04T17:44:47+00:00

Hopefully the first of many designs! I'm looking forward to the next one! :-)

Thread: Re: Traders of Carthage: A Review

UniversalHead — 2008-08-02T14:01:03+00:00

I'm most gratified that you appreciate the graphic design. 'Traders' was the first time I'd designed all the components of a game. Nice review too!

Thread: Re: Traders of Carthage: A Review

denverarch — 2008-08-02T12:44:29+00:00

mreissig wrote:
Something about the fact that a card can be money and a "good" and an "Alien Robot Sentry" just limits my immersion in the game's theme. "San Juan" and "Race For the Galaxy" are both great games that I own and enjoy, but somehow I prefer to keep my goods and my Alien Robot Sentries a bit more separate. "Traders of Carthage", like those two games, is both a card game and a game with multi-purposed cards - and still I think it's highly entertaining and well worth a purchase.

Best quote on BGG in a long time.

Thread: Re: Traders of Carthage: A Review

scottsnew1 — 2008-08-02T07:57:43+00:00

Excellent first review! a pleasure to read, and very well written.

Thread: Traders of Carthage: A Review

mreissig — 2008-08-02T06:50:40+00:00

First, a disclaimer: this is my first review for Board Game Geek.

Second, another disclaimer: I am not the biggest fan of cards in strategy games. Don't get me wrong - I play and really enjoy all sorts of strategy games with cards. In general, though, I prefer to play strategy games with limited card use and to keep my card gaming a bit more traditional (like bridge).

Why is this? One reason I don't usually prefer games that heavily rely on cards is that there is often a bit of a learning curve for new players. "Torres" and "El Grande" are fantastic games, for example, but it's hard to be good at them until you learn what cards are available, read them all, and then learn how to use them. The second reason is reserved for card games with multi-purposed cards - "San Juan" and "Race For the Galaxy" being two prime examples. Something about the fact that a card can be money and a "good" and an "Alien Robot Sentry" just limits my immersion in the game's theme. "San Juan" and "Race For the Galaxy" are both great games that I own and enjoy, but somehow I prefer to keep my goods and my Alien Robot Sentries a bit more separate. "Traders of Carthage", like those two games, is both a card game and a game with multi-purposed cards - and still I think it's highly entertaining and well worth a purchase.

To begin with, let's discuss the components: to me, they feel, well, "rich". The board is tiny but unexpectedly beautiful. It's sturdy and has a great finish and fantastic artwork. Even the box for this game is really, really attractive. Plus, the game has wooden ship bits that actually look like ships. Nothing pleasantly distracts me from the fact that I'm playing a card game about suit promotion like a beautiful board and cool wooden bits. In a game where the theme could feel just a tad tacked-on, excellent production values really help.

The cards are nicely-sized and fairly sturdy, with the same stellar artwork. They come in four suits and three denominations, and play a variety of roles. Cards can be goods (face up in front of you), money or "goods storage" (in your hand), or victory points (face down in your victory point pile). What streamlines things a bit is that no detailed reading is really necessary, as the cards don't represent specialty actions or include any tiny text. One quick glance at a card tells you what it's all about. The card's "suit" only matters when it's behaving as a good or storage, and its value only matters when it's used as goods or money. Neither matters for victory points. The whole mechanism of promoting suits and then cashing them as victory points reminds me a bit of "Bohnanza", but I find the theme and gameplay in "Carthage" a lot more compelling.

Every turn you have only three real options. The first is to use your reservation token to reserve a card in the market or farm. Cards in the market are available for immediate use, and cards in the farm are available after the current market is essentially sold out. The whole "farm" concept is a bit reminiscent of the futures market for power plants in "Power Grid", and the fact that the farm represents at most 60% of what's going to show up in the next market adds just the right amount of chance into the mix. Figuring out which card you want to reserve and what you eventually intend to use it for is important. Whether or not to reserve a card is also important, because reserving a card means you only have two options left on future turns, and you may not even be able to afford take a certain one of the two that are available. Since this is the case, it's sometimes possible to squeeze other players into doing something they wouldn't ordinarily want to do.

The second option is to take a card from the market into your hand, and use it as currency. This presents an interesting dilemma, because the natural inclination is to take the high-value "5" cards. Doing this makes it a lot easier for other players to afford to buy the contents of the market, though, because when you buy goods (the third option) you have to buy every card in the market that is not reserved by another player. Since buying goods is the only way to get victory points, making it easier for other players to buy out the market isn't always a great idea - especially if it means they get to sell a load of valuable goods and you end up having to dump yours.

"Traders of Carthage" is really all about suit promotion, which is represented by the position of the ships. Buying goods in the market moves the corresponding ships closer to Carthage, though there are limits on that movement. Ships that make it to Carthage allow all players to sell their goods of that type and cash them into victory points. Selling a type of goods also provides a player with a token that serves as an additional multiplier for future sales of those goods. (In a somewhat elegant mechanic, these tokens also determine the length of the game.) When one or more ships land in Carthage, pirates raid the ships that almost (but don't quite) make it. Players who own goods carried by raided ships are forced to dump or store their goods, both of which can be expensive propositions.

In the end, "Traders of Carthage" is a "game of deltas", and ship position is the key. You'll win if you sell more goods in Carthage and if you have fewer goods that you have to dump or store. I've heard both "San Juan" and "Race For the Galaxy" criticized for lack of player interaction, and even heard them compared to multiplayer solitaire. "Traders of Carthage" surpasses both of those games in this regard, because it's extremely important to keep track of the goods owned by other players and also the funds they likely have available. When choosing a card as currency, for example, it can be important to choose cards that you don't want to see other players buy as goods. These are usually goods in which you yourself are not heavily invested. When buying out the market, it's likewise important to realize the impact on ship position and the results (sales and raids) this will have for other players. It's extremely satisfying to land a ship in Carthage that earns you a rich haul of victory points and simultaneously forces all of the other players to dump their own valuable goods. By the time you factor in ship positions, the goods owned by yourself and the other players, the amount of money you have, the composition of the market and the future opportunities available in the farm, each turn really provides a lot to think about.

PROS:

-Streamlined play but with some deep tactical considerations
-Easy to learn and quick to play
-Excellent production values
-Relatively inexpensive
-Plays well with any number of players (2-4)

CONS:

-Some could consider the theme a tad "tacked-on" (though I really like it)
-Math for converting goods to VP's initially seems a little alien
-We found a couple small parts of the manual a little ambiguous, but soon sorted things out

CONCLUSION:

This game may not be currently ranked quite as highly as "San Juan" or "Race For the Galaxy", but it's an excellent game that's easy to recommend, and in my gaming group it's currently getting more plays than either of those fine games.

Thread: Re: Possible to play with 5/6 players?

TangentZ — 2008-08-01T17:39:25+00:00

Good point about the starting money... I'll try increasing it to 10 or 12 (instead of 8) to see how it goes.

Thread: Re: Possible to play with 5/6 players?

themothman421 — 2008-07-29T17:08:44+00:00

Yeah I think something like that would work.

Maybe give each player more starting money as well, since buying the market would be a more costly expenditure

Thread: Re: A four way tie for first place

lorna — 2008-07-27T18:40:59+00:00

Norbert Chan wrote:
Hi Lorna,

Yes, you are correct. After a payday, all ships on a pirate port go automatically to the port (Cyrenaica) which is two squares back from Carthage.

Thanks for catching that!

ah, I see what you were saying, and misread the way you were counting. sorry!

Thread: Re: A four way tie for first place

lorna — 2008-07-27T18:38:57+00:00

dwrigley wrote:
I actually really really do like this game. Not expensive, quick to play, and did work well with 2 players - but will also work with more.

I'll have to try with 2 again. So far I have played it most with 3 and I think works quite well with that number.

Thread: Re: A four way tie for first place

Norbert Chan — 2008-07-27T16:46:55+00:00

Hi Lorna,

Yes, you are correct. After a payday, all ships on a pirate port go automatically to the port (Cyrenaica) which is two squares back from Carthage.

Thanks for catching that!

Thread: Any strategies or tips?

chicagometh — 2008-07-27T16:18:27+00:00

Upon first play, I didn't catch on to anything in this game. I figured there wasn't very much control or any steadfast strategies, but, like Alhambra, there were some high probability tactical tips that could be employed to fair pretty well. Does anyone have some of these tips they would like to share?

Thread: Re: A four way tie for first place

dwrigley — 2008-07-27T15:33:19+00:00

We bought this game recently and had a quick few 2-player games in succession. It soon became apparent that there are a few subtleties in the game play, and is not as simple as the rules would suggest. There are many decisions to be made between which cards to take as coins, should I reserve merchandise, or will this make it too cheap and my opponent will buy the market.

I actually really really do like this game. Not expensive, quick to play, and did work well with 2 players - but will also work with more.

Image

Rainforhar — 2008-07-17T07:19:58+00:00

sample art

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Aingeru — 2008-02-28T13:32:01+00:00

Game in process

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UniversalHead — 2008-02-16T06:42:25+00:00

Traders of Carthage: box cover

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Zman — 2008-02-16T01:24:53+00:00

Sample card

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Zman — 2008-02-16T01:24:25+00:00

The board