Game: Liberté

Thread: Re: 'French' flag on the cover...???

MrSel — 2008-08-30T09:29:05+00:00

Even though horizontal stripes might be an accurate choice, historically speaking, it feels a bit disturbing...
And the choice of town names for provinces names (instead of provinces themselves) feels odd. Does anyone know why these have been chosen?

Thread: Re: Counterrevolutions - How common, and how preventable?

MrSel — 2008-08-30T09:16:49+00:00

Played my first game yesterday, roaming the BGG and seen this topic.

Twas a 5-player game, with one veteran and 4 newbies. We got our heads around the mechanics after Turn 1, and some other player and I had whored all the Royalists leaders. We ended up teaming to force a counter-Revolution (our odds to win had improved from 1/5 to 1/2).

Victory by counter-Revolution in turn 3 - with turn 2 and 3 ending only after round 2 ! Looked like we were in a position to force a quick one on our opponents if they did not teamed up properly. It felt great that this game - which normally takes 2 hours or so to play - could end prematurely if not enough attention is paid to counter-Revolutions.

We'll probably do better next time, but the threat of a quick counter-Revolution is a great thing - in many ways similar to Punic Wars in Republic of Rome.

Thread: Re: Counterrevolutions - How common, and how preventable?

Unitoch — 2008-08-29T23:46:40+00:00

Thank you for the responses. It's good to hear that CR victories are an aberration rather than the rule. That's what I figured, but I was becoming dispirited.

So, how do people generally go about combating the royalists? This is what I can think of off the top of my head.

- Tie stacks of royalists, which serves two purposes - Forces players to advance royalists to win ties, and clears all royalist blocks out of provinces.
- Use special cards to target royalist leaders.
- Don't idly put royalist blocks in CR provinces unless that is your eventual strategy.

Any other ideas that we might be missing?

Thread: Re: Counterrevolutions - How common, and how preventable?

otrex — 2008-08-29T18:39:15+00:00

The best way, in my opinion, to discourage a CR victory is to point out to other players the growing potential for such a victory. Generally only one, and maybe two players are interested in the CR victory, so pointing it out, especially to new players generally shuts it down.

In my experience with the game, I would say that 10% or less games end in a CR victory, and perhaps 20-30% end in a red revolution.

Thread: Re: Counterrevolutions - How common, and how preventable?

cymric — 2008-08-29T06:53:18+00:00

I think you're trying to make your players run before they've even begun to learn how to walk. Liberté is a game which really takes an effort to learn, and that effort must be made in person. Telling how the game works helps a little, but the eb and flow is so different from other titles that the only thing which will speed the process is playing more. There is no need to invent variants to slow down the royalists, nor should you keep pointing out that a counterrevolution is a real possibility. The latter is just words at that point.

Let the players get used to the various block placement mechanics (if necessary by not doing a CR or RL); then let them figure out where good points are to be had; and only then point out to people who are are far behind in points that there are two alternative means of ending the game. Yes, they are a gamble of sorts, and probably need some unspoken form of agreement (and thus some experience in recognising the signals), but they sure as heck weren't going to win relying on the 'normal' point sources, where they? Only then does everything come together, but you'll be at least five games further. Liberté is simply a hard game to learn.

Thread: Re: Counterrevolutions - How common, and how preventable?

Windopaene — 2008-08-29T05:52:09+00:00

I don't recall ever seeing a white victory. I've seen a couple of red ones. You've just got to impress upon the players that CRs are possible, and not that hard to pull off. And even if every game ended up this way, what's wrong with that? You still have to play well to pull it off AND be able to win doing it.

Thread: Counterrevolutions - How common, and how preventable?

Unitoch — 2008-08-29T04:59:44+00:00

I just got done playing my fourth game of Liberte, and the third that has ended in a successful counterrevolution (the fourth was called at the end of the third round due to time, and was also hovering on the edge of CR end conditions). I was playing with two newbies, and one person who had played once before, and I ended up surprising everybody with a counterrevolutionary victory on the second round of the third turn. It was nice to win, of course, but it felt a little bit bittersweet, as it felt a little like I was pulling a fast one over on the rest of the players, despite the fact that I warned them quite strongly both in the initial rules explanation and a bit later in the first round that such a victory was a possibility to watch for.

So, with that background, here are my questions.

1. Are counterrevolutions really as common as they seem to be in our games? Three games of four ending in a counterrevolution is beginning to make me despair in ever bothering to do anything other than get white cards. If CRs aren't as common as in our games, is it because we are failing to prevent them effectively? What should we be doing to slow down the royalists?

2. How can I impress upon newbies the fact that a CR is a very real possibility? Do I need to tell them that they need to actively work against CR unless they WANT it to win that way? Any other suggestions for getting the point across?

Thanks for your help.

Thread: Re: End of round trigger

Godeke — 2008-07-28T15:39:16+00:00

Long dead post I know (we finally got around to play here), but I think the simplest interpretation is that the order of card play determines the outcome. As you can play special cards before or after the main card, I think treating the cards as independent acts makes it your choice. Play the terror first and the pool of blocks was never exhausted, play terror second and they were (however temporarily) exhausted.

Thread: Re: Valley Games - Liberte Preorder Information

Basiliv — 2008-05-01T22:44:16+00:00

I just emailed VG asking about this yesterday, and today I received this reply:

The game is not ready for preorder just yet that's why you won't be able to order when you go to the website. We are hoping for later this year to get that game to production but it could be early next year as well.

Keep checking you radar and sign up for our newsletter for all of our updates that we post.

So I'll sign up for the newsletter...and keep my fingers crossed.

Thread: Re: Valley Games - Liberte Preorder Information

cymric — 2008-04-24T08:42:21+00:00

According to VG's site, Liberté is scheduled for 2009, any further dates left unspecified. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this game were quietly shelved somewhere along the way: the last count of preorders was at 136 out of 750, and that's nearly a year after VG announced it was going to try and release this title.

Thread: Re: Valley Games - Liberte Preorder Information

Admiral Fisher — 2008-04-24T08:02:21+00:00

Any more news on this? I've lost track of what's happening at Valley. I know there was a deal being muted, but then I heard nothing about this game and others. Anyone know?

I'd preorder this, but not if it's going to be a massive delay etc.

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Capitaine Grappin — 2008-04-02T02:00:00+00:00

Thread: Re: Dagger Variant

CortexBomb — 2008-03-08T18:30:44+00:00

Club cards are not treated differently in my plays, they just happen to be more useful because they're wild.

So sure, play two club cards, play one personality and one club card, draft one club and one one block personality card, &c..

They do gain extra utility with the Dagger rules, and having several of them can allow you to influence several places on the board at once, but that's fine in my experience.

Thread: Re: Any ideas?

Kubigaruma — 2008-03-07T16:27:55+00:00

Thanks Michael (and whoever uploaded it!), this is exactly what I was looking for.

Thread: Re: Any ideas?

cymric — 2008-03-07T15:46:13+00:00

The fumbling you fear you will experience has very little to do with the cards, but much more with Liberté's unique feel. There are only two colours which are easily confused, and the background map art is sufficient distinction. Point it out a few times, and if necessary create a simple player aid showing which card belongs where, and how to tell (!). Oh, and make sure each player has sufficient light: the pastel colours become kind-of similar in darker environments. I played Liberté in a café once, and with hindsight that wasn't such a good idea .

Thread: Re: Any ideas?

CortexBomb — 2008-03-07T15:41:02+00:00

http://files.boardgamegeek.com/geekfile_view.php?fileid=2597

Player aid that shows the colours...print these out and hand them to your players. I still have to use this when I play the game.

Thread: Any ideas?

Kubigaruma — 2008-03-07T15:26:22+00:00

Does anyone have any idea for making our first game of Liberte play smoothly despite the color matching problems? Or do you just have to point out the background map art that is on the cards (ignoring color) and fumble through a game? I am not above marking on the cards in some way if that has helped anyone's group play more easily.

Thanks!

Thread: Re: New Cards

Thommy8 — 2008-02-16T22:50:37+00:00

Page 2 of rules, column 2, paragraph 4:

"A player can have more than nine cards in his hand, (this will occur at the start of a new turn when he picks up cards from his Personal Display."

Page 1 of rules, column 2, last paragraph:

"After taking the opportunity to discard cards a player then refills his hand to seven cards, unless he already had seven or more remaining in his hand."

Thread: Re: Placing faction blocks. Must you place all in same province?

Drew1365 — 2008-02-16T22:32:03+00:00

Well, Tom, . . . I guess you got a copy finally.

Thread: Re: Placing faction blocks. Must you place all in same province?

Thommy8 — 2008-02-16T22:28:19+00:00

Polydor wrote:
On a similar note. If there were only two faction blocks left, could you play a three-block card in order to place them?

Yes, on page 2 of the rules, second column, first paragraph, it says:

"A player may not be able to place all of the faction blocks on the card, due to there not being enough such blocks left, in which case he places as many as he can."

Thread: Re: Liberté, egalité, fraternité!

cymric — 2008-02-08T20:43:53+00:00

That's what you get from thinking you know a foreign language, of course . I think I picked up the sentence from a comic way back when, and no, it wasn't that kind of comic. 'Kicking Liberté's shins' a better phrase then?

Oh, and if you think it a very good review (thank you for the compliment), you might want to consider... eh... 'thumbing it up' .

Thread: Re: Liberté, egalité, fraternité!

sshawmd — 2008-02-08T20:17:44+00:00

cymric wrote:
You might wonder why I am going down on Liberté's ass so much.

Very good review, but this sentence provided some disturbing imagery.

Thread: Re: Vote totals

GeoMan — 2008-02-04T00:13:21+00:00

On the other hand all players in my group count the votes. You can figure out how some ties will be resolved by looking at the cards in front of each player.

You never have perfect knowledge but it is important to know how each faction is doing so you can plan your future moves.

Because of the counting our last game ended with one player wining the game and 2 points behind him there was a triple tie for second position!

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m_hamburg — 2008-02-02T04:36:18+00:00

The box showing the front and art on the sides.

Thread: Re: Liberté, egalité, fraternité!

GeoMan — 2008-01-31T00:24:56+00:00

Very good game and excellent review!

Watching carefully your opponent's card draws can tell you a lot about their plans!

In our last game and during the third round, a player was picking up every white-influence card lying face up. It was then obvious that he was preparing for a counter-revolution and we were able to stop him in the last minute (15 controlled provinces and the following battle was a sure tie)!

Thread: Re: Stagnant Draw Fix by Bobby Tweaks

GeoMan — 2008-01-26T19:09:57+00:00

hurstdm wrote:
Isn't the easiest and simplest fix just not to use face up cards for a draw option?

That will severely limit your planning options and control.

Thread: Re: Valley Games - Liberte Preorder Information

wolfpack95 — 2008-01-23T22:04:03+00:00

What is the current status of pre-orders and the pre-order bonus?

Thread: Re: Dagger Variant

Hedric3248 — 2007-12-20T20:45:24+00:00

With this variant do you include 1 block club cards?, in other words taking two cards with maximum 1 block would include the Club cards?

Also playing two cards, can they be a combination of 1 block Club and Personality cards?

How do you all play this...

Thread: Liberté, egalité, fraternité!

cymric — 2007-12-16T20:43:56+00:00

1. INTRODUCTION

Liberté is a boardgame for 3 to 6 players, designed by Martin Wallace, and originally published by Martin's own label Warfrog in 2001. The game takes you back to the chaotic upheaval of the French Revolution of 1789 and its aftermath. The goal is to have the highest amount of points after the fourth and final game round; these points are predominantly obtained by having the largest amount of influence in the party winning the general elections held at the end of every round. There are but 3 political parties, but final result of the elections requires establishing the result in approximately 30 separate provinces first. Influence in a party in a particular province is gained by playing a card: this indicates how much influence---in the shape of wooden blocks---you are allowed to add. However, to keep everyone on their toes and prevent the game from deteriorating into a somewhat dull adding-blocks-wherever-you-can routine, Liberté features two sudden death-victories with completely different victory point calculations. All points you obtained by other means are worth nothing in those cases!

Historically, the French Revolution is a period of resounding importance for both France as well as the rest of the world. If you're interested, just ask Wikipedia for 'French Revolution' and dig in. Don't forget to play the occasional boardgame, though!

2. GAME MATERIAL

Liberté comes in an attractive dark box with an appealing cover which leaves little doubt as to the game's theme. In the box you will find a lot of wooden blocks (in 3 colours) and discs (in 6 colours), some markers, 2 decks of playing cards, a big game board featuring a stylistic representation of France and various tracks and boxes, a rule book and 2 extensive player aids.

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At first sight the game material appears perfectly fine, but soon various errors become apparent. In one of the pink provinces near Paris a '2' is missing, for example. Downright annoying is the fact that the colours of the playing cards do not always match the colour of their corresponding regions, and can in fact easily be confused for a different region alltogether. In less than perfect light this is an endless source of questions and confusion. Fortunately (or coincidentally) there is another distinguishing mark, but it tends to take a while for new players to remember. (I have since learned that the cause is two separate printing companies using 'standard' colours which apparently are not so standard.) You get used to these little oddities, but they still set your teeth on edge a little. The cards themselves have black edges (*sigh*) and feel a little awkward, as if their coating is somewhat off.

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Here you see the problem I alluded to. I understand that Valley Games is working hard to make sure their reprint doesn't have such blemishes.

Despite the French title (meaning, of course, liberty) Liberté is an English game. The rules booklet comes in three languages (English, German, French), but the game material itself is English. The rules themselves are for the most part clear and do a good job of explaining the game. However, sometimes a new concept is already used before it is properly introduced, and some lexical constructs are confusing. Then there are a few minor issues with some game situations which are not truly important nor occur very often, but for the sake of completeness should have been documented just the same. There are just a few examples, but the game is straightforward enough to do without them---at least for me. All in all: a good and readable guide with a few sharp edges.

3. GAME MECHANICS

Liberté revolves around victory points for having the most influence in the party winning the general elections. There are 3 parties: red radicals, white royalists and blue moderates. The elections are made up of approximately 30 provincial elections. In each province the result is tallied with the winning party (nearly always) scoring 1 point. Afterwards, the party with the highest amount of points wins the general elections and forms the government; the runner up becomes the opposition.

Establishing which party wins in a given province boils down to checking which player has the highest stack of influence blocks there. The checks are made in a fixed sequence starting in the northwest of France and then meandering to the southeast. Whoever wins in a provice takes a block from his stack and lays it in front of him. At the end of the provincial elections---when it is now known which parties form government and opposition---the player who got the most blocks in the government party receives victory points. Points are also rewarded to the runner up in government blocks, and the owner of the majority in opposition blocks.

Players place the influence blocks by playing a card on their turn. This card not only indicates number and affiliation of the blocks, but also the region where they must be placed. A region is simply a collection of provinces: there are 6 in this game. The players are not limited to playing a certain region or party: they can spread their influence at will. The player can distribute the infuence blocks amongst the provinces of the region as he sees fit; however, he may only have at most one stack of at most 3 blocks in one single colour in there. He may always add to his own stacks provided they do not grow too tall; he may not move or remove stacks. Stacks of other players are taboo. It is entirely possible for multiple stacks of the same block colour to be present in a province: such stacks can be thought of as rivalling party members competing for the position of top dog in the area.

Usually a played card is discarded, but a player can also opt to place it in his personal display: a fancy name for 'in front of him'. Such cards help break ties between stacks: the maximum height of 3 blocks ensures that this happens quite often, sometimes even between stacks of the same colour! At most 4 (sometimes 5) cards can be saved this way. In case of a tie the involved players may play one of their displayed cards to 'strengthen' their stack with the number of blocks on the card. If the tie remains then the elections are declared undecided: noone gets the influence block. The cards are now also discarded. However, no matter what the outcome of the tie-breaking, the province is always completely cleared of its blocks. This is different from a 'normal' victory where nothing is removed save for the 'winning' block.

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Closeup of the 'personal display'. Hey... Card sleeves. What a wonderful idea. Gotta make a note of that---this will ensure the cards in my copy will live a lot longer!

Playing cards from the personal display is the way in which all ties in this game are broken. Usually it's just a single card, sometimes several; usually only the involved players, sometimes everyone; etcetera. Because ties occur quite often it is important to consider whether it is truly necessary to win a particular tie. Not only are cards thus played discarded, but any card left over on the personal display at the of a round is added to the player's hand for the next round, and can thus be used to place influence anew. It can sometimes make for a tough decision.

There are other ways of obtaining victory points. From the second game round onwards it is possible to use cards to place your own markers in the battle box. You require a rarer card with a small cannon on it to do this. If supported by a general in the personal display (recognised by his silhouette), a player can then 'win' the battle for that round and score a substantial amount of victory points. There is no actual combat or anything: the combination of markers and a general suffices. A second way of obtaining extra points is for winning the elections in a small number of provinces; but this method is not available until the third round.

Next to the normal cards there are also special cards with imaginative names such as Terror, Purge and Guillotine. These allow a player to remove blocks and at times complete stacks from the board, or to 'guillotine' a card in someone's personal display. It shouldn't come as a surprise that such a card is then permanently removed from the game. These cards are not valid at all times: sometimes you need to have 'government presence'---meaning you won at least one provincial election for the current party in the government---and sometimes the government needs to be of a particular colour.

Liberté ends in one of three ways. The first is finishing the game in the fourth game round and then determining who scored the most points. The other two are sudden death-victories. In the first case the radicals have such a dominant presence that they score 17 election points or more. Now only the amount of red blocks under a player's control (actual blocks, on the board, and on cards) is decisive. In the second case a certain number of marked provinces is controlled by the white royalists, who then immediately launch a succesful counter-revolution. This can only occur in the third and fourth game rounds, and now the amount of white blocks under a player's control determines his score.

4. GAME PLAY

With the game mechanisms in mind the game itself is really very easy to play. The players get a set of cards at the beginning of the game and then take alternating turns in which they can either play a card (placing influence blocks, adding to the battle box, etcetera), draw a new card (either from the closed deck or from an open trio), or pass for this turn only. It is not possible to keep drawing cards until you have half the draw deck in your hand: at some point you must first discard two cards before you can draw a new one.

Play continues until one stack of influence blocks is exhausted: this signals the end of the current game round. Everyone gets to play until it is the starting player's turn again. If necessary the 'battle' is resolved; then the elections take place. Victory points are awarded immediately.

The players take any remaining cards in their personal display back in their hand, discard whatever they want and then draw up to a certain amount. All blocks in the provinces remain where they are, and a new round begins. This process continues until the game ends in one of the three previously mentioned ways.

5. DISCUSSION & OPINION

When playing Liberté for the first time you will quickly notice that it resembles other games in little, and that it has a rythm all its own. Only at the end of the first game will you have an idea of the general mechanisms, and then at least a few more games await you before you have a good sense for its subtleties: how to win the elections, what point goal to strive for, and when to try and steer the game towards a sudden death-victory. Coupled with a longer-than-average playing time which in my case never dropped below 2 hours, you are looking at a genuine gamer's game for the larger group of serious enthusiasts who are willing to invest a lot of time and effort in one and the same title.

The second thing you will notice is that it is hard to concoct a plan of action and see it through. The general strategies are quite easy to describe, but stringing the required tactics together is not always an easy job. Occupying provinces worth victory points is easy, and so is winning a battle. But elections are more difficult already. For starters, you are limited by the cards in your hand. Similarly, even if you had cards of the right political faction, on your own you cannot place sufficient influence to win the elections. You need the help of other players. However, you must be careful in how you help them: if your goal is a general increase of influence you should not force a tie between yourself and a 'cooperating' player. And so forth. Really difficult is winning by means of an alternate victory condition: not only must you resist the Pavlov-like tendency to go with the flow; you must also silently cooperate with another player to pull it off while at the same time working against your silent partner to make sure that it is you who wins.

On basis of the above you would expect Liberté to be a strenuous and chaotic game in the sense that you are completely at the mercy of other players. Well, yes and no, although it will take a few games for the 'yes' answer to partially subside and for the 'no' to take root. For example, placing influence for political gain is an incremental activity, meaning that the situation on the board doesn't change radically in between turns. This allows for more control than you might think. Second, there are only three parties to play. The so-called pigeon hole principle ensures that players more or less help each other even if they don't want to. Third, provinces are equal, the only major difference being the order in which the election results are established. This order is fixed and doesn't change throughout the game. It doesn't really matter to the end result whether the radicals won in Normandy or in the Languedoc. That said, the order might matter to the players as they must consider conserving cards to break ties; additionally, some regions clearly favour one political party over the other: the region of Paris has strong radical tendencies, for example. If your goal is just to help a certain faction to power, then it of little concern where you place your influence. Things are a lot more complex if you're specifically targetting a province, but that's not a regular occurrence. Fourth, if I neglect the special cards for a moment then direct competition between players is remarkably diffuse. Overall there will be a noticable number of ties, but not many of these affect you directly. In other words, you can steer your own game to the extent where your contribution more or less pays off as planned. But even with the special cards the game doesn't change all that much. Their effect is rather pinprick-like in nature, meaning that they should be timed just right for maximum effect lest they just result in shrugged shoulders. Finally, there is a way to deal with (temporary) bad luck of the draw: if your chances of making a significant contribution to the elections or battles are slim to begin with, you loose nothing by drawing new cards to the point where you have a sufficient number to attempt a different way of ending the game. This is the hardest and most opaque of all lessons to be learned with Liberté: namely to understand that you do not have to sit around doing nothing while others are placing influence blocks left and right. Of course there are no guarantees, but since the alternative was not going to work out anyway...

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It might be tricky at first to 'read' this position within a few moments, but practice does make perfect.

These factors (and I haven't even mentioned them all) see to it that Liberté is not an easy game to pick up. Well, it might if someone tells you all the little things I just told you in the above paragraph, but as I had to find these out on my own I was only getting comfortable with the game after my fifth play or so. (Perhaps I'm a slow learner.) An unpleasant side effect of the steep learning curve is that an alternate ending of the game will leave a somewhat sour aftertaste in the first game or two---you've been successfully working them politicians for a good while and now all of a sudden someone else wins. The trick is to suppress the feeling of 'F*** this game!', and attempt it anew. Once you understand the subtlety involved a well-executed landslide or counter revolution commands a much greater deal of respect, and is thus appreciated much more. Unfortunately, the time this takes may be too much for many of today's casual gamers who favour quicker gratification.

You might wonder why I am going down on Liberté's ass so much. This is not because I think the issues I highlighted result in an unplayable game---they do not---rather, I want to make it quite clear what is facing you if you buy this title and put it in front of your gaming friends. In the class of 'eurogames' Liberté is, I think, a bit of an odd duck: it boasts a rather original combination of mechanisms which take some getting used to. However, if it's just the newness of mechanics which interest you, you'd better stay clear from this game because it simply won't work for you. Liberté requires more than average patience, enthusiasm, and effort to show off its good qualities. In fact what I wrote above is exactly what draws me to Martin Wallace's offspring. Gameplay is rich and challenging, with various viable strategic options to pursue. You have a subtle sense of control over your own destiny: not too much (because of the card draw and influence of other players), but not too little (see above) either. Second is that I managed to get better at it all on my own, and learn how the internals all fit together. As I played more, my understanding of how to use the systems in place improved to the point where I could make them work for me. It has been a rewarding experience to play Liberté, and I'm curious to find out what other bits of tactical knowledge lurk beneath its somewhat chaotic exterior.

Thematically, Liberté does a good job of portraying the absolute wasp's nest that was French politics in those days. Political control was fleeting, and violence was not shied away from. That said, it is all quite abstracted, and most names on the cards mean little to people without a background in French history. The fun, if a somewhat macabre variety of it, comes in from doling out a pinprick in the form of a Terror or Guillotine special card. However, despite the game dealing with politics, it isn't a political game with lots of diplomacy. One tends to practice silent diplomacy, and even if solid agreements were made, the uncertainty in the card draw sees to it that such deals are likely to be amended in all but the broadest detail.

Speaking of the card draw, there has been considerable debate whether the cards with just a single block on them are not underpowered compared to the ones with two and three blocks. Apart from simply placing a lot of blocks in a single turn, looking at the open draw pile is also an indication: it tends to fill up with single block-cards. The consensus is that the multiple block-cards are too powerful, and that the single block-ones must be strengthened. I used to agree with this idea, but nowadays I'm no longer so sure that this is absolutely necessary. The more powerful ones are always first to fall victim to special cards; in addition, you might be forced to play a strong card to break a tie which was instigated by a lowly, 'worthless' single-block card. (In fact, this might be a way to prevent their reuse, albeit a fairly inefficient one.) Second is that you must consider that the number of blocks on the card is just half the story: where you can place these is just as important. Despite the provinces all being equal as far as the rules are concerned (with a single exception), the political landscape might force you to confine the influence you place to a subset of the available regions. There are quite a lot of single block-cards which allow you to place the influence anywhere. Therefore only a small subset of the cards would be considered 'weak', yet to someone who is practicing targetted provincial control they might be quite powerful---and free for the taking as they are lying there in open view... The balance is quite tricky, and it is precisely this subtleness---a hallmark of Liberté!---that makes me hesitant in applying the most popular fix: playing two single-block cards per turn. There are a number of side effects. The number of ties increases, leading to a more chaotic game. (There are less provinces you know the election outcome of with absolute certainty.) It most definitely speeds things up as the end of a round is tied to the stock running out of a particular kind of coloured block. For the moment I cannot really say whether these changes are for good or for bad, and that is why I am playing the game 'as published' for the time being to be able to pinpoint the differences better. I advise you to do the same when commencing play.

It is somewhat of a disappointment that the game only works well with 4 or preferably 5 players. With just 3 players the participants have a lot of control over their actions, giving Liberté a decidedly analytical character. With the full compliment of 6, it is very hard to hold on to influence you placed in a province, resulting in bitter fights when ties need breaking. It is also harder for leaders in the regular political game to stop determined royalist and radical rabble. I also think that in this case you get too little out of the game with respect to the amount of time you put in. The balance is struck somewhere in the middle of the extremes. If it's just the two of you, I'm afraid I have to say that the game cannot be made to work at that number, not even with the Knizia-trick. Liberté is heavy fare and playing for two exacerbates this to the point where it is no longer fun to do.

So with all that in mind, I must say that I like this game considerably: it's challenging and rewarding. Because it is not an easy game to play, I wouldn't want to pull it out all the time, but if I know I have a group of experienced players at hand who do not mind sitting down for a longer period of time, then Liberté is a serious contender for table time.

6. CONCLUSION

Liberté is a meaty title with a number of original ideas and mechanisms which does an admirable job of casting you back to the chaotic times of the French Revolution. The learning curve is steep and the balance of strategies and tactics subtle. The game has a few sharp edges in the form of a tricky to manage luck of the draw, printing errors and a somewhat confusing game overview: these can negatively affect playing pleasure the first few times. However on the whole the positive aspects of multiple paths to victory, the game being 'learnable' and a lot more controllable despite an initial appearance of chaos, strongly outweigh the negative ones. Warmly recommended (to the point of iving it a try at least once) to the experienced and serious enthusiast who prefers longer and challenging games with their own unique character, and does not shy away from playing the same game more than a few times in order to explore all its nooks and crannies.

7. USEFUL INFORMATION
At the time of writing it has been a few months since ValleyGames announced a reprint of this title. Check out their website for further information.

Thanks to Bryant Ross, Geoman and SeonGyo Lee for their lovely pictures of this game.

Thread: Liberté (session in french)

Capitaine Grappin — 2007-12-14T14:29:20+00:00

Ce n'est pas sans enthousiame que j'ai entrepris cette partie de Liberté, Mathieu (SGCalgary) métodique, avait lu les règles et nous discuttions donc des stratégie à adopter en attendant les deux joueurs manquant, soit David et David, que j'apellerai Détritus, membre de ce forum, pour éviter toute confusion.

Explication des règles, qui fut plus facile que j'envisageais, puis nous commencons la partie. Premier bémol, nous avions oublié le détail que les personnalités doivent aller dans leur province respective...une remise à zéro s'impose, puis nous y voila, prêts pour la partie.

Tour 1 : Je m'attendais à ce que le plateau soit rouge d'extémistes, mais il n'en fut rien, une vague de bleu attaqua le plateau, à un point tel qu'on se demandait si il n'y avait pas une dictature en France à cette époque, d'ailleurs, cette image peut témoigner du manque de diversité d'opinion dans le pays, tout le monde entreprenais la révolution en étant modéré..

Le suite du tour fut sans surprise, et les modérés emportèrent la victoire, avec Mathieu en première place au gouvernement. En tant que seul qui jouait pour avoir l'opposition, j'espèrais marquer quelques points, mais David gagna d'une province. Donc, 0 points, je deviens dernier joueur.

Tour 2 : Convaincu par sa stratégie gagnante, Mathieu continue dans le bleu avec succès, David dans le rouge, et Détritus, dans les deux couleurs, pendant ce temps, je me lance en guerre. En cours de route, David et Détritus diversifient leurs placement, et je sprinte pour l'oppostion. Une fois de plus, Mathieu remporte le pouvoir, marquant le plus de points, encore une fois, le pouvoir est modéré.

Tour 3 : Le peuple en a marre de la modération, Paris se rebelle, et une vague d'insatisfaction prends la capitale.

Les opinions se diversifient, la guerre, bien que moins prestigieuse, se porte bien, loin en arrière, je commence à envisager la contre-révolution, mais malheureusement, je remporte la guerre, ce qui nuit à mon objectif. Par un coup de maitre, David réussit à prendre le controle du pouvoir, en plus du controle de l'opposition! Il n'y a pas à dire, il devient un homme influent, et par conséquent, premier joueur.

Tour 4 : Les extrêmistes sont au pouvoir, pour la première fois. Dans ma main, deux généraux royalistes, deux personnalités royalistes, Robespierre (rouge), et deux terreurs, il n'y a pas à dire, j'ai continué mon mouvement contre-révolutionnaire. David a aussi une main blanche, tandis que Mathieu et Détritus ont beaucoup de rouge et de bleu.

Ce dernier tour fut beaucoup plus lent et prudent que les précédents. Avec ces fous révolutionnaires au pouvoir, le simple fait d'être révolutionnaire peut servir de prétexte pour être accusé de nuire à la révolution.

Sans même tenter d'être subtil, je me lance dans la conquête des provinces loyales à la couronne, tandis que David se lance dans la guerre la plus prestigieuse de l'époque. Détritus continue son petit chemin en soutenant le pouvoir actuel, et Mathieu, un habile mélange de rouge et de bleu.

La contre-révolution aurait pu se faire, mais David, le fourbe, fait guillotiner mon général royaliste, avant même de me laisser le loisir de le trahir d'abord. Mathieu attaque ma contre-révolution, fait exiler mon autre général, faute de points blanc, je tente tant bien que mal d'empêcher la contre-révolution que j'avais amorcé.

Alors que toutes les chances étaient du côté de Détritus de l'emporter, Mathieu prends le controle d'une région contre-révolutionnaire avec un royaliste, joue une pénurie de pain pour qu'une septième région contre-révolutionnaire soit sur le plateau, et la contre-révolution l'emporte.

Après un décompte des points, nous avons eu une égalité entre deux joueurs, David et Mathieu, et une fin très serrée, et nous n'étions pas très loin du ras-de-marée de l'aile gauche que manigancait sournoisement Détritus dans son coin.

Somme toute, un excellent jeu, à quatre joueurs, ça roulait très bien, à 5 ou 6 ça doit être encore mieux

Vivement la prochaine partie, la première était pour tester, mais nous avons saisi et apprécié très vite, il ne reste plus qu'à raffiner les stratégies.

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Soledade — 2007-12-09T12:45:28+00:00

The board at the beggining of the 2nd turn

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Soledade — 2007-12-09T12:41:32+00:00

Moderates winning the election

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brainst0rm — 2007-11-30T12:34:59+00:00

First turn

Thread: Re: Placing faction blocks. Must you place all in same province?

Polydor — 2007-10-31T10:19:26+00:00

On a similar note. If there were only two faction blocks left, could you play a three-block card in order to place them?

Thread: Re: Election track

RaDiKal — 2007-10-30T23:18:44+00:00

Resets after the election but note which party won

Thread: Election track

Polydor — 2007-10-30T23:15:59+00:00

Am I right that at the end of a turn the Election track is set back to zero or is it cumulative?

Thread: Re: Vote totals

Soledade — 2007-10-28T12:11:36+00:00

I'm with Jim on this one. It's much more fun to play the game intuitively.
Apart from the CR, of course.

Thread: Re: Vote totals

ekted — 2007-10-27T19:33:37+00:00

It's more fun for me just playing intuitively. Besides, you never know how ties are going to be resolved until they happen, and with the RL/RCR you don't know what cards players have in their hands, so no count can ever be exact.

Thread: Vote totals

Lindsey — 2007-10-27T19:26:36+00:00

I've played Liberte a couple times, and quite enjoyed it.

But... Especially toward the end of each turn, it's tough to keep track of which faction is ahead in each province. It's all there, face up on the table, but there are enough provinces that there's no way I can tally everything up quickly, even just for provinces where there's a clear majority.

So I just don't worry about the exact counts, and try to guess (well, except for royalist control of counterrevolution provinces, which I do keep track of).

That said, though it isn't really easy to count the election standings, it's easy enough -- and important enough -- that players sometimes do so. I think this sours the game for some of the people in the group, since they might play much better if they take the time to tally the totals, but also know that will slow down the game.

What would you experienced Liberte players suggest? Tell people not to tally votes in the middle of a turn? Use some bookkeeping trick to keep track of rough vote totals? Or are there any other good tricks to speed things along?

Thread: Re: PopeBrain's Card Refresh Variant

Sprydle — 2007-10-09T20:19:37+00:00

I agree, which is why the Dagger variant works so well--it doesn't burn through the deck that much faster, while still encouraging taking those 1 block cards.

Thread: Re: PopeBrain's Card Refresh Variant

ekted — 2007-10-09T13:11:04+00:00

The only problem I can think of is that this could burn through the decks too quickly. The B deck is meant to occur later in the game, not during trhe first round.

Thread: Re: PopeBrain's Card Refresh Variant

B_J_S — 2007-10-09T12:31:40+00:00

PopeBrain wrote:
We've only tried this variant once, but it seems to work - and keeps things pretty simple.

When drawing cards, you must choose one of the three face up cards.

OR

You must refresh ALL THREE face up cards, and then make your draw.

You cannot choose a face down card from the deck.

A variant could be that you may:

Draw card from the three face up cards.

OR

You must refresh ALL THREE face up cards, and then make your draw.

OR

Draw hidden card from the deck

In this, you would still get the hidden part that you draw, and may also leave good cards in the new face up cards newly drawn.

IMHO it gives a bigger to have dynamics in the drawing part of the game.

Good game

//Jonas

Thread: PopeBrain's Card Refresh Variant

PopeBrain — 2007-10-09T06:56:05+00:00

We've only tried this variant once, but it seems to work - and keeps things pretty simple.

When drawing cards, you must choose one of the three face up cards.

OR

You must refresh ALL THREE face up cards, and then make your draw.

You cannot choose a face down card from the deck.

I like that you still are opening up the possiblity of leaving good choices for your opponents, but you get first pick of the new choices.

I don't like that you never draw a card that your opponents haven't seen.

Thread: Re: Valley Games - Liberte Preorder Information

Admiral Fisher — 2007-09-17T11:41:45+00:00

Where does the game fit in with your printing schedule?

I know that Hannibal is almost out, Container is to hit Essen.

What is the likely order of games after that?

Thread: Liberte : Finally got played this one!

MichaelB — 2007-09-05T22:17:43+00:00

This is my second ever session report.

Martin Wallace's (my favourite game designer) Liberte had been on my shopping list for several years, but for reasons unknown this game had always escaped from my play hungry hands.

I still not own Liberte though. My friend finally made a move and bought it. We were ready for gaming session.

Let me introduce the players:

JouniA: The heavier the game, better he performs.
Kinnunen: A kind of a joker. Either wins or finishes dead last, no matter which game he played.
MikkoR: The owner of the game who has really improved his playing skills recently (and extended his game collection big time)
MikkoA: That's me. I love politics!

Noone had played this before but of course MikkoR had familiarized himself with rules very well and for my surprise the rules introduction made all crystal clear quite soon. A simple mechanic which allows for multiple tough strategic moves with a chaotic nature of French revolution as a bittersweet spice.

Until the first scoring we all were a bit confused about how all and everything is going to affect to the rest and the other everything and I found myself a couple of times in a situation where I had absolute no idea what move I should do next. That of course turned against me: Zero points for me from the first scoring. Doh.

JouniA took a lead with ruling the goverment (royalists).

Then everything clicked for me. I had a good hand and I started to use cards way better. Naturally it did not go ultimately perfect. I won the majority of radicals (who won the election) but failed narrowly to lead also the opposition. I had dodged (a good redirective talk needed) a couple of hosing attempts quite well and I still had a good hand for the third scoring round. The battle for battlebox win had been a helluva intense struggle between JouniA and Kinnunen. Kinnunen finally won by placing his sixth!!! influence at battlebox. That was some dedication shown for willingess to rule the war machines.

Third round and that was a fast round. Everybody was playing radicals. I double-terrored the other influence at Paris and got again majority of radicals who almost managed to end the game with the sudden death win condition (I would have then won). Too bad I again did not get any other points. I failed miserably to get any general cards during this round which dynamically made me push Radicals a bit more I originally planned

After 3rd scoring the play situation was: MikkoR: 12p, MikkoA 11p, JouniA and Kinnunen 8p.

Too bad I had mediocre hand this time. My good cards were guillotined last round and I had to struggle with average han...no...that was actualy a load of crap hand. And of course I midjudged badly when the game was about to end, which downspiraled my winning changes down the drain.

Kinnunen played some huge play and won both majority of radicals (who again were at Goverment) and battlebox battle. Add some random points from the board and he had made 12p during the last round for a total of 20.

JouniA got a distant second place with ruling the opposition and getting also 2nd place points from Radicals's influence.

I lost the 3rd place at tie-breakers to MikkoR.

Kinnunen did it again (that's how he wins these games) with winning the game out of the blue. Props for that.

I made some crucial mistakes at the early game and my last minutes of the game were just quality of toilet flush content. But I do not allow myself to be unhappy. It was extremely fun playing. Liberte is a good and almost a great game!

A short review after this first impression:
-------------------------------------------
+ A simple play mechanic which allows for multiple strategic paths
+ Chaotic, Intense and Fun
+ Good components
+ Martin Wallace never disappoints
- Background colors of cards and regions did not match and colors were extremely poor pastel choices (next to impossible for color blinds)
- Cards should have had more variety maybe?
- A bit abstract (even though the theme is very good, I felt the mechanics are quite abstract...may be I expected even more theme?)

I give a strong '8' and I am already looking for another Liberte play session.

Thanks for reading.

Thread: Re: NJ Players

BarryRoy — 2007-09-03T02:16:38+00:00

When is the next meeting?

Thread: Re: NJ Players

BarryRoy — 2007-09-03T02:16:29+00:00

When is the next meeting?

Thread: Re: 'French' flag on the cover...???

Great Dane — 2007-08-16T15:22:53+00:00

This flag was flown by the 17th Century replica ship the Batavia when it visited the Olympic games in Sydney 2002.

I cannot claim to have found an "official" site, but the above pic is taken from the "Flags of the World" website:
http://flagspot.net/flags/nl_prvlg.html

Apparently the flag is used even today by the Secretary of defense:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dutch_flags

Thanks for the IMG tip!

Thread: Re: 'French' flag on the cover...???

cymric — 2007-08-16T14:17:58+00:00

The orange-red thing is understandable from a historic point of view, and is still with us. The Netherlands bounced back from kingdom to republic to kingdom, and the red band is a remnant of the republican era. As a sort-of compromise we still have an orange ribbon now and then whenever someone royal celebrates their birthday. Other people think that the orange was the product of bad textile dyes. Most likely it was those bloody French who simply made the colour 'red', and this more or less sort-of-stuck until it was made official in 1937. But there are plenty of flags around the world which were derived from the flag with the orange band. (The flag of New York, or the old one of South Africa, for example.)

There is even a famous personal journal entry from a Rotterdam notable who wrote in 1796 that the flag was blue-white-red. But this certainly wasn't a widespread phenomenon. At least we don't change the orientation of the stripes from horizontal to vertical---which the French did do.

The flag with colours radiating from the center is a naval flag; it's called 'de dubbele geus'. Smaller ships carry 'het geusje', which is a simpler version. As such, it doesn't really enter into this discussion as we're not talking about the navy.

As for the increased number of bands: I have not been able to find any indication of that, save for on a painting. Not even the site of Dutch Vexillologists makes mention of this oddity. Do you have a source for me, please?

Embedding pictures? Between [ IMG ] / [/ IMG ] tags.

Thread: Re: 'French' flag on the cover...???

Great Dane — 2007-08-16T13:38:15+00:00

cymric wrote:
Apparently people were happy as long as the three colours appeared in the flag:

Allright, I'll concede that the flag on the box cover of the game is 'French', although I will maintain that it's a bloody confusing period for this flag business. You could make anything fly (literally as well as figuratively), as long as white is in the middle...

It is funny to have a Dutchman complaing about this since your own flag have had even further confusion.

It took more than 300 years before you finally decided on the correct colors (red-white-blue) as the first stripe could have any variation from light orange to bright red.

And to add further confusion would the flag sometimes have 6 or even 9 stripes instead of 3 - not to mention the version that had the colors radiating from the center!

PS. How do you embed pictures in a post?

Thread: Re: 'French' flag on the cover...???

cymric — 2007-08-16T09:37:11+00:00

Apparently people were happy as long as the three colours appeared in the flag:

which is a facsimile from a gravure made in 1796---the flags don't even match! Allright, I'll concede that the flag on the box cover of the game is 'French', although I will maintain that it's a bloody confusing period for this flag business. You could make anything fly (literally as well as figuratively), as long as white is in the middle...

Thread: Re: 'French' flag on the cover...???

Great Dane — 2007-08-16T09:07:34+00:00

cymric wrote:
So now we are faced with the problem that apparently there was a hodgepodge of tricoloured flags, and an official one from 1794 onwards. I still say the illustrator should have used the official flag.

How can you use an "official" flag before it has been created?

This original drawing from the period show how the flag could have the colors both ways:
http://www.elysee.fr/elysee/root/bank_objects/libegfragd.jpg

It was found on the same _official_ website you referred to

Thread: Re: 'French' flag on the cover...???

cymric — 2007-08-16T09:02:48+00:00

I can't tell how the staff is oriented towards the cloth on that image, and if I'm any judge, it's even a third variation with horizontal bars with blue on top. I've found some other paintings which resemble the Dutch flag as well, but flag with the vertical bands was made the official flag of the Republic on february 15, 1794, based on a suggestion by the painter David (see here, which I take to be quite a definitive source on the subject!)

So now we are faced with the problem that apparently there was a hodgepodge of tricoloured flags, and an official one from 1794 onwards. I still say the illustrator should have used the official flag.

Later edit: Mik, look how the staff connects to the flag. These aren't vertical bands, but horizontal ones. Not even when you allow for the fact that the staff is depicted at an angle; please compare to the images of the paintings and note the difference in pattern.

Thread: Re: 'French' flag on the cover...???

Great Dane — 2007-08-16T08:44:27+00:00

The boxcover is correct:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/San...

from www.heraldica.org:
The blue-white-red of the French revolution comes from the combination of the royal white with the Parisian red and blue (the latter derived from the arms of Paris, and in use since the Middle Ages); the colors were combined for the first time when the King visited Paris on July 17, 1789, a few days after the taking of the Bastille. La Fayette is often credited with the idea. The new cockade symbolized the reconciliation of the king with the city. It quickly became the cockade of the Revolution. The three colors in vertical stripes were first used as a canton on Navy flags in 1790, and extended to the whole field in 1794. It is quite plausible that the adoption of stripes of colors as navy flag was an imitation of the Dutch flag, although the colors themselves owe nothing to the Dutch colors.

Thread: 'French' flag on the cover...???

cymric — 2007-08-16T08:35:16+00:00

I am not a vexillologist, but isn't the flag of France in the cover actually the flag of the Netherlands? If you orient a flag with the staff left and the cloth itself horizontally to the right, then the French tricolore has vertical stripes blue, white, red from left to right. The depicted flag has horizontal stripes red, white, blue from top to bottom---and I'm quite sure that this is the flag of the low countries.

See for example

It seems quite a silly mistake to make, really.

Image

GeoMan — 2007-06-29T18:18:08+00:00

5 player game

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Soledade — 2007-06-27T20:15:42+00:00

Image

Crockerdile — 2007-06-01T03:50:45+00:00

From historical atlas

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JCwid — 2007-04-09T04:47:13+00:00

Image

JCwid — 2007-04-08T14:42:21+00:00