Game: Julchen und die Monster

Thread: Re: Is it scripted? or broken? - I hope not, but...

Castef — 2008-10-06T20:35:17+00:00

Skanibal wrote:
Hmm.... Has Marcel abandonned Juliet yet? She aint gonna be saved in the end.............

No news here?

I still have to cut the game.

Image

olavf — 2008-03-26T13:18:21+00:00

Home made box

Thread: Re: Is it scripted? or broken? - I hope not, but...

Skanibal — 2008-03-04T22:51:10+00:00

Hmm.... Has Marcel abandonned Juliet yet? She aint gonna be saved in the end.............

Thread: Re: Is it scripted? or broken? - I hope not, but...

Skanibal — 2008-02-29T03:03:31+00:00

Hello Marcel !

So, how is it going ? Have u had time to playtest the game? Have you at least come to the same conclusions as us?

Thanks for your time.

Guilhem

Thread: Re: Is it scripted? or broken? - I hope not, but...

Skanibal — 2008-02-12T22:12:22+00:00

Hi Marcel,
Let me thank you again for being so constructive with us players !

Take all the time you need to perfect a 2-player variant, there aint no rush !

When i played 2 player games, they always ended the same : the player that always draws from his oponent wins.
I must say we were playing it like if we were playtesting a prototype game
You know, trying every strategy to find out how to have more chances to win.

The first obvious problem we encoutered was that the game stalls because there's no rule against drawing undefinitely from each other.

Then we played another game, i decided with my friend that i wasnt gonna draw fom him, and i would only draw from the deck.
I draw a card, he steals it, i draw another one, he steals it, and so on, to the end of the deck
and he wins, i wasnt able to take juliet back from him at all, even when we tried the extra rule you explained.

Then we tried a 4 player game. We decided to draw from the same player a few times in a row, he didnt play at all, he was just having one card in his hand from time to time. But i guess that if the 4 players had played like we've played the 2 player game, that is always draw from the player that is just before you, the game would have stalled too.

Then we stopped playing because we couldnt see a way to enjoy the game.
We've started thinking about how we could change the game to make it work better, no offence meant!

A few ideas came up, like "Name a card and draw from your oponent, if it is correct you keep it, if not you place it back /or your oponent then draws a card from you if your guess wasnt correct."

Another player suggested that you could draw cards from your oponent only from time to time during the game
like every 5 turns (like in Scotland yard )

Someone suggested that we should add new cards in the game, that you can play to steal from your oponent.

We didnt playtest those variants yet, we dont want to change your game too much, if there's some change to be done, it has to come from the author, logical respect !

As i am writing those lines, an idea comes to my mind. Maybe a player could be allowed to play a combination of monsters to perform a certain action, like steal from the oponent.
Or maybe each type of monster could have a special effect when played in pair, besides trying to eat Juliet. Like an different alternative action to attacking.

I am gonna ponder the whole thing a bit more, i hope you will grant us with a great 2-player variant soon!

Best regards from the french gamers community of www.trictrac.net

Guilhem

Thread: Re: Is it scripted? or broken? - I hope not, but...

Marcel Casasola — 2008-02-12T17:44:05+00:00

Hello,

please give me a little bit of time for playtesting. As soon as I am ready I will post my results and probably a 2-player variant.

P.S. What is your opinion? Does the problem still exist in a multiplayer game?

Thread: Re: Is it scripted? or broken? - I hope not, but...

Skanibal — 2008-02-11T19:56:04+00:00

Hi Marcel, thanks again for your reactivity, very appreciated.
If you try to ge tJuliet back from me, ure gonna have a hard time, tho.
Juliet is located very close to the storm cars, so when u steal a storm from me, i am very likely to get it back from you and reaarange my hand again, so your efforts will be in vain...

On www.trictrac.net french gamers community forum, we thot of this rule :

When its your turn, you draw from the deck, then you can
Attack / or draw a card from your oponent but you have to announce the value of the card you think u are gonna steal. if you succeed, you can keep it, if you fail, your place it back where it was.

What do you think ?

What about the fact that the game can stall if two players constantly draw from each other, no one wanting to draw from the deck as it is a disadvantage in the begining of the game?

Best regards from france

Guilhem

Thread: Re: Is it scripted? or broken? - I hope not, but...

Luke the Flaming — 2008-02-11T19:44:42+00:00

Marcel Casasola wrote:
I suppose decisions in this game are not as obvious as said in this thread.
Well, I'll gladly hear any counter-argumentation about my first post (the very first of this thread). I can't see a better strategy (or why someone shouldn't play as I wrote). And "it is not fun to play to win" isn't much of a reply, sorry.

Marcel Casasola wrote:
Personally I wouldn't play like that because it is no fun at all always drawing from my opponent but I know that is not the gamer's way of thinking
I dare to say that "play badly otherwise the game isn't fun" identifies a problem with the game rather than with the players.
The goal of the game is to win (it's written in all rulebooks). The fun should derive from the attempts to achieve victory (the famous "journey that matters more than the goal"). If there's a "dominat strategy", then it's the whole game that has little meaning to be played (it's like Tic-Tac-Toe: once you understand how to play it perfectly, it loses sense to play it at all).

Maybe I've overstimated the whole game, as it is intended to be a mindless filler and nothing more (something at the level of Tic-Tac-Toe or Knock! Knock!). I'd accept such answer.

Marcel Casasola wrote:
Did you ever consider to begin the game with more cards (perhaps 5) on each player's hand?
Yes. The whole reasoning I presented in the first post is still valid and applies. The starting hand size doesn't remove the problem outlined there (drawing from opponent is better than drawing from the deck, etc.).
We also tried some other house rules (like "no drawing from an opponent whose hand is N smaller than yours", with various possible N), but they weren't enough.

I'm glad to have the designer answering here (at last!).
Have a nice day!

Thread: Re: Is it scripted? or broken? - I hope not, but...

Luke the Flaming — 2008-02-11T19:21:13+00:00

Marcel Casasola wrote:
Well let's say you are player A (with the large hand), I am player B (with only one or two cards, because you are always stealing from me).

So if you draw Juliet from me, I'll immediately stop drawing cards from the stack. I will try to get Juliet back on my hand. And if I can steal her from you (don't forget the additional information I get each time when I draw a card from you) I can rearrange my two cards and have a 50% chance in winning when you keep drawing from me. And if you would attack me the chances would be 50%:50% for each side to win.
I must have missed something in your reasoning.
If I (large hand) attack you (two cards - including Juliet), why do you have a 50% chance of winning? If I get Julet, I win. If I do not get her, the game goes on. Your 50% is "not losing" (that's quite different from "winning").
Where's my error? (I'm still hoping to be wrong and that the game isn't broken as it appeared to be)

Thread: Re: Is it scripted? or broken? - I hope not, but...

Marcel Casasola — 2008-02-11T16:07:41+00:00

Skanibal wrote:
My oponent has no chance at all of taking it back, each time i steal a storm from him i rearrange my hand, he never can have pairs of matching monsters...

I think that is not right.

Well let's say you are player A (with the large hand), I am player B (with only one or two cards, because you are always stealing from me).

So if you draw Juliet from me, I'll immediately stop drawing cards from the stack. I will try to get Juliet back on my hand. And if I can steal her from you (don't forget the additional information I get each time when I draw a card from you) I can rearrange my two cards and have a 50% chance in winning when you keep drawing from me. And if you would attack me the chances would be 50%:50% for each side to win.

I suppose decisions in this game are not as obvious as said in this thread. Personally I wouldn't play like that because it is no fun at all always drawing from my opponent but I know that is not the gamer's way of thinking
Did you ever consider to begin the game with more cards (perhaps 5) on each player's hand?

Best regards
Marcel-André

Thread: Re: Is it scripted? or broken? - I hope not, but...

Skanibal — 2008-02-11T11:37:19+00:00

Hello again, tried your new rule.

Doesnt seem to solve the problem.
Let me explain how it goes :

Chances of my oponent to have juliet in his hands and i draw the other card from him: 1 out of (33-7(on the table)-2(in my hand))/2 (cards he has) = 24

1 chance out of 24 that he wins if i draw from him on the first round.

Then 2 things can happen :

[A] i draw a card from my oponent and it is not juliet : my oponent wins if the other one is juliet. End of the game after 1 round 1 chance out of 24

[B] i draw a card from my oponent and nothing happens : it means the other card is not juliet. Knowing this, all i have to do is always draw from my oponent the card he just picked from the deck. As soon as he draws juliet, i will steal her, and place it in my huge hand which i can rearrange. My oponent has no chance at all of taking it back, each time i steal a storm from him i rearrange my hand, he never can have pairs of matching monsters...

Its too bad because i really like the idea of the game, but there has to be a tweak in the rule to make it work nicely !

I hope we can find it !

Thread: Re: Is it scripted? or broken? - I hope not, but...

Skanibal — 2008-02-10T09:54:15+00:00

Hi, thanks for your response.

Ok for this extra rule, but it still leaves far more chances of winning by drawing in the oponents hand if you let him have 3 cards for example, and then draw from him constantly....

Or once you know the two cards your oponent has, and juchen is not one of them, you just have to draw the card he just drew from the deck and you are sure to pick julchen if he draws her....

But i'll try this new rule and tell you how it went.

Thanks

Thread: Re: Is it scripted? or broken? - I hope not, but...

Marcel Casasola — 2008-02-09T07:43:58+00:00

Dear Guilhem,

I think a have to disagree but as I am currently at the International Toy Fare in Nuremberg 2008 I'm not able to give detailed answers from here.

If your assumption really destroys the fun for you try this extra-rule:
- A player wins immediately if he only has left Juliet in his hand.

Best regards
Marcel-André Casasola Merkle

Thread: Re: Is it scripted? or broken? - I hope not, but...

Skanibal — 2008-02-08T05:13:25+00:00

Dude, i come to the exact same conclusion !

It really is better to draw from ur oponent.
start the game : A 2 - B 2
A draws from B
A 3 - B 1
B cant have a pair, thus cant attack, and if B draws from the deck, A draws from him again, indefinitely
A 4 - B 1

A 5 - B 1, until the end of the deck, with 100% chances of having juliet in his hands, lots of pairs, and all the brooms and lights....

Then B must draw from A too, and the game stalls!

The game is flawed, for sure!

I thot we could decide that before drawing from your oponent, you name the card you think you are gonna draw. If it is the card, you can take it, if not you replace it in your oponents hand.

Or say that you cant take from your oponent two times in a row..
But the game is still falwed i think...
Too bad! :-(

Thread: Re: Is it scripted? or broken? - I hope not, but...

Pensator — 2007-12-18T00:42:50+00:00

You can rearrange but you oponnent will follow it with its vision, and then later attack. The rules don't say that you can do it out of vision, only rearrange cards (that in theory are secret). Or i am wrong?

Thread: Re: Is it scripted? or broken? - I hope not, but...

Luke the Flaming — 2007-10-31T18:34:30+00:00

Pensator wrote:
I think this is wrong "while i draw from his hand trying to get some monsters" if you catch juliette in this way , your opponent could attack with two monster next turns and wins because he will know you have juliette and were.
You're wrong. If I draw Juliet from your hand, I can rearrange all the cards in my hand.

Having played the game again recently, we definitely perceived it as flawed (or possibly intended to be played mindlessly and not thinking as I'd have hoped).

Thread: Re: Is it scripted? or broken? - I hope not, but...

Pensator — 2007-10-31T16:39:41+00:00

Luke the Flaming wrote:
I'm talking about games with only 2 players.

This goes on until I draw Juliet, that is immediately taken by him as explained before. At this point, roles reverse: he'll just draw from the deck, trying to end the game as soon as possible, while I draw from his hand trying to get some monsters (to attempt to eat Juliet) and possibly weapons (just to deprive him of them, so my monsters would be able to attack). I do not draw from the deck since to me it's much more convenient to draw from him, as it achieves three goals at once: increase my hand, decrease his hand and do not shorten the game of a turn (as I'd do if I drew from the deck).

I think this is wrong "while i draw from his hand trying to get some monsters" if you catch juliette in this way , your opponent could attack with two monster next turns and wins because he will know you have juliette and were. This is the risk of drawn from the hand of your opponent and i think is the reason because is better to draw from the deck. The only way to draw from your opponent whithout risk if you don't have juliette is attacking with two monster because if you find juliette you wins.

Thread: Is it scripted? or broken? - I hope not, but...

Luke the Flaming — 2007-03-14T15:31:41+00:00

I'm talking about games with only 2 players.

Premise: having more cards in hand is good since you have more chances to have couples of monsters, weapons and it's easier to hide Juliet if you've her. The only drawback is that if you've Juliet, you may have to wait a few extra turns to win the game (but it's just a small problem, compared to having Juliet and only few cards to hide her).

Thus the problem is: drawing from my opponent is always better than drawing from the deck, since my hand is going to increase by one in both cases, but his hand is going to decrease by one as well if I draw from him (AND if I draw from him a Thunderstorm or Juliet, I can reorganize my hand; the same isn't true if I draw that card from the deck).
At the beginning of the game, I can go 3-1 (cards in hands) rather than 3-2 if I draw from him. At that point, it's better from him to draw from me (2-2 again rather than 2-3 for me... that would become 4-1 as I draw from him again!). Essentially, we'll draw the two starting cards of the other (effectively swapping the starting hands).
Then, I'll draw from the deck and his best option is to draw from me the card I just drew. Especially because if it is a Thunderstorm, he can "reorganize" his hand. So my best option would be NOT to draw from the deck (that would lead to a stall... let's assume I'll try a sub-optimal move - i.e. drawing from the deck - just to avoid the game to block indefinitely).
Thus it's now my turn (I've 2 cards, he has 3 and we both know perfectly all of them, but this isn't really important); once more: if I draw from him, the game stalls. If I draw from the deck, he'll just go on drawing from me the card just drawn. Let's assume, as before, that I accept to draw from the deck just as I do not want to block the game (since, if I draw from him, he'll draw from me again... he has no problems stalling the game, apparently).
This goes on until I draw Juliet, that is immediately taken by him as explained before. At this point, roles reverse: he'll just draw from the deck, trying to end the game as soon as possible, while I draw from his hand trying to get some monsters (to attempt to eat Juliet) and possibly weapons (just to deprive him of them, so my monsters would be able to attack). I do not draw from the deck since to me it's much more convenient to draw from him, as it achieves three goals at once: increase my hand, decrease his hand and do not shorten the game of a turn (as I'd do if I drew from the deck).
If I'm so unlucky to draw Juliet early (he rearranged his hand after drawing her from me, so the chance is there), he's likely to attack and win (remember that I've a very small hand size at this point: two cards plus one for each turn elapsed after Juliet appears... while he has two cards plus one for each turn elapsed since the game started).
Otherwise, the outcome is likely to depend by how early (or late) Juliet appears (i.e. sheer luck when shuffling the deck).
Early: his hand would be still reasonably small (and since it is going to be constant from now on, as he draws from the deck and I draw from him, it is likely that I'll be able to eat Juliet within the - several - turns still missing).
Late: his hand would be so great that he is likely to have waepons to defend from a few attacks and besides Juliet will be able to hide well between all those cards (my best chance at that point is to draw from him hoping to get Juliet when only a few turns are left, so he - likely - won't be able to take her back from me).

So, what am I missing?
There's not much bluff and deduction here, since the best move seems obvious (as detailed above) most of the times. (My "possibly broken" doubt is due to the reasoning that, if neither player wants to be the first to draw from the deck - since it is perceived as a disadvantage - the game stalls indefinitely, leading to something that is neither fun nor much of a game.)
I'd like to enjoy this little game, but I cannot if I perceive it has those "structural" problems. I thought about a house rule (e.g. you cannot draw from an opponent if you've two cards more than him; it would lead to some early attacks to "draw from the opponent" in another way, but that would keep both hand sizes down, or at least similar in size if we both draw from the deck sometimes... I'm not sure if it'd be a big difference or not), but before "tinkering" I'm asking to fellow geeks their opinions on my concerns.

Thanks for the attention and the replies (if you'd like to write them).

Thread: Re: eating attack

Spielguy — 2007-03-06T20:28:59+00:00

They are discarded. Otherwise you would always have them and the game would be greatly lengthened.

Thread: eating attack

oskari — 2007-03-06T20:11:28+00:00

After an unsuccessful eating attack, do the players pick up the monster & weapon cards, or are they discarded?

Thread: Two Games

Spielguy — 2007-01-01T06:14:10+00:00

I had received this nice present from a friend and my lovely wife took the time to cut out the cards for me. What a great gift, since I was sure to butcher the cards.

The game consists of 33 cards. There are six types of monsters, each represented four times in the deck, and each type with a unique number. Therefore there are four matching monsters with 0, four with 1, four with 2, four with 3, four with 4, and four with 5. Twenty-four total monsters.

Four cards are numbered 6, and they represent the weapons in the game; a flyswatter, and a flashlight.

Four of the cards are 7. They are lighting storms.

The last is Julchen herself. The object of the game is to either have Julchen when the daylight comes (all cards are drawn and the game ends) or use a pair of like monsters to eat her.

A unique twist to the game is that your cards are in a specific order in your hand and any card you add to the hand only has a few different spots where it can be added. This proved to be the interesting part of the game as you watch where drawn cards are placed.

My first game was with my son, Carson. Two player. He understood the hand placement rules so we got going and just over halfway through I drew Julchen. He tried to attack me numerous times during the game but I had three of the four weapons to ward him off. Before I had drawn Julchen I allowed him to draw cards from my hand. This resulted in a tradeoff in my favor. He had to play two matching cards to get this to occur. Since I was drawing new cards most turns my hand was getting larger. This allowed me to keep Julchen hidden by the massive number of cards in my hand. I won when the day dawned after all seven track cards had been drawn.

We played a second game soon after. This time I got my mother-in-law, father-in-law, and sister-in-law to join us. The five player game was quite different. I explained how cards were to be added to our hands and showed some examples, but one of them got impatient and we just played. Ten minutes later it was over. I had won again. I was able to tell who had Julchen because of the lack of a poker face on my opponents. It took two turns to get the card. Unfortunately for the game the last few players drew out even though it should have been clear that I had Julchen.

Two victories for me but somewhat hollow as we learn the game. I'm looking forward to a few more multiplayer games.

Thread: Re: Any US geeks want to jump in on an order?

AnakinOU — 2006-11-30T21:12:23+00:00

Mine came in yesterday. Thanks, meej!

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stray_flux — 2006-11-04T07:59:18+00:00

Juliet (doesn't she look tasty?)

Thread: Re: Any US geeks want to jump in on an order?

Koryo — 2006-10-28T18:07:08+00:00

me too please.

for two that is.

Thread: Re: Any US geeks want to jump in on an order?

Mr.Baggins — 2006-10-27T20:54:52+00:00

I'd like to jump in. I'm in Mexico, but hey,if it's 2 sheet of paper I'm guessing you can stuff it in an envelope and mail it easily, right? I'll happily pay for any extra shipping.

Thread: Re: Availability

shawn_low — 2006-10-26T02:07:07+00:00

Might I suggest that you make the PDFs available for download? I think that you might be able to charge maybe EUR2 for the PDF?

Thanks,
Shawn

Thread: Re: Any US geeks want to jump in on an order?

AnakinOU — 2006-10-25T22:06:39+00:00

Count me in.

Thread: Any US geeks want to jump in on an order?

meej — 2006-10-25T21:56:48+00:00

Yegods and I plan to order copies from Bewitched-Spiele. To spread out the shipping fees from Germany we thought we'd open it up to see if any one else would like to order a copy. The game is Euro 3,90, and the cost I got from the site for shipping 5 copies to the US was Euro 8,25, plus paypal fees (I don't know how to estimate that yet, if anyone has a clue please let me know). It does add the cost of me shipping it across the US to anyone, but as it is just a couple of sheets of cardboard that should be less than $2, so still much cheaper than ordering it from Germany yourself.

Anyone interested please pm me or reply to this thread. As of now I'm thinking of placing the order on Monday 10/30.

Thread: Re: Availability

Marcel Casasola — 2006-10-25T18:07:10+00:00

You can find English rules here: http://www.casasola.de/spiele3/download/julchen_regel_en.pdf

Thread: Re: Availability

meej — 2006-10-25T17:31:37+00:00

Will you ship to the US?

edit: I see that Bewitched-Spiele will, so I can get it from them. Thanks for the info!

Thread: Re: Availability

Marcel Casasola — 2006-10-25T17:20:43+00:00

At the moment "Julchen und die Monster" is only available in Germany via my website http://www.casasola.de/spiele and via Bewitched Spiele (http://www.bewitched-spiele.de).

Until now I have no information if anyone wants to pick it up for other countries.

Best regards
Marcel-André Casasola Merkle (who saved and got Julchen eaten for several dozen times)

Thread: Availability

meej — 2006-10-25T17:04:12+00:00

Does anyone have any information on when and where this game will be available?

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Gonzaga — 2006-10-25T12:24:10+00:00

Essen 2006

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Gonzaga — 2006-10-25T12:24:02+00:00

Marcel-André Casasola Merkle presenting Julchen und die Monster at Essen 2006

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Gonzaga — 2006-10-25T12:16:39+00:00

Essen 2006

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elSchwabo — 2006-10-23T00:23:58+00:00

Friedemann Friese explains the game at Essen 2006

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Romir — 2006-10-22T11:40:50+00:00

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Michel — 2006-10-22T11:15:56+00:00

Do it yourself version: 2 identical sheets for cutting out the cards, a rule sheet.