Game: Bazaar

Thread: Re: Tokens: May you hide them, or must they be public?

dcorban — 2008-11-14T06:02:27+00:00

Having actually played the game now, I wonder if hidden tokens would be better. I found myself looking around to see what tokens players had and which ware they were going for. In one instance it allowed me to realize that the person ahead of me in turn order was going to be able to buy a ware right before I would be able to, so I changed my plan and went for something else.

However, I think there is one particular thing that makes it fairly obvious that tokens are meant to be public: the ten token limit. Having the tokens public allows everyone to ensure no one is "cheating" (intentionally or accidentally).

Thread: Re: What to write with? (3M scoreboard)

dcorban — 2008-11-14T05:37:15+00:00

I used a dry erase marker tonight and it worked pretty much perfectly.

Thread: Re: What to write with? (3M scoreboard)

dcorban — 2008-11-12T14:11:17+00:00

I have never used a china marker, so I thought maybe it would be too hard and make permanent dents in the score card. I will check them out.

Thread: Re: What to write with? (3M scoreboard)

Barticus88 — 2008-11-12T07:53:39+00:00

Wow
I thought that was a pad of paper. Well, looking at the picture, I would take that to be a grease pencil/china marker. Stocks & Bonds had a chalk board in early editions, then later went to grease pencil. I don't think a 3M game ever came with a dry erase marker. Dry erase technology dates to about 1970, and was a little pricey until the 1980s, but a dry erase marker might work perfectly with that.

Thread: Re: What to write with? (3M scoreboard)

dcorban — 2008-11-11T21:42:52+00:00

There is already an image showing it:
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Here is mine (my copy actually has two of these):
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dcorban — 2008-11-11T21:34:02+00:00

Erasable score card from 1968 3M edition.

Thread: Re: What to write with? (3M scoreboard)

Barticus88 — 2008-11-11T21:13:46+00:00

dcorban wrote:
What are people's experiences with the original 3M scoreboard? What sort of instrument do you write with?

A dry/wet erase marker?

What about a "china marker"?
Scoreboard? Isn't it just a pad of paper? If you have a board for using a china marker, please upload an image to the gallery.

Thread: What to write with? (3M scoreboard)

dcorban — 2008-11-11T05:20:48+00:00

What are people's experiences with the original 3M scoreboard? What sort of instrument do you write with?

A dry/wet erase marker?

What about a "china marker"?

Thread: Re: Tokens: May you hide them, or must they be public?

dcorban — 2008-11-11T05:07:42+00:00

BSW is never a place to look to for answers concerning public information. They always make anything that is trackable public, since you could just look in the game log.

I never even considered that the coins would be hidden in this game. One thing of note is that Sackson's Acquire also doesn't mention hidden or open assets, however he has been quoted as saying he prefers them hidden.

Thread: Re: Editions?

Lightstorm — 2008-06-27T01:28:21+00:00

I have the "Special Edition." I read the list that says I should stay away from this version (unfortunately I bought the game before reading the list) - I noticed that the list says that DT "dumbed down" the rules. Is there a rule fix that would make my game work properly? Thanks!

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Gibbo — 2008-06-02T03:20:34+00:00

Back of the 3M box. The back of the box is actually blurry, not this photo.

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Gibbo — 2008-06-02T03:17:18+00:00

Close up of the 3M version tokens (pre-dating the gems of later version)

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Gibbo — 2008-06-02T03:03:23+00:00

Box lid of the 3M version of the game.

Thread: Re: How many tokens?

coolio — 2008-05-17T14:24:24+00:00

Links on this game page down below indicate there should be 21 of each. I picked up a copy in a thrift store and it contained 21 of each except yellow only had 20.

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garygarison — 2008-05-13T07:00:40+00:00

3M catalog listing 1970

Thread: Re: Editions?

Barticus88 — 2008-05-09T21:15:11+00:00

See also my post on the list Beware this Version! Games' editions that should be avoided.

Thread: Re: Editions?

Larry Levy — 2008-05-09T20:29:57+00:00

Wow, for a game that's never been considered to be one of the highlights of the 3M line, to have seven versions is remarkable. I've always had a soft spot for the game--looks like others have as well.

Thread: Re: Editions?

thatmarkguy — 2008-05-09T18:36:47+00:00

I know of 7.

"Bazaar" by 3M in North America (and UK?)
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"Bazaar" by Discovery Toys in North America (and UK?)
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"Bazaar Special Edition" by Discovery Toys in North America (and UK?)
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"Bierbörse" by Parker Bros in Germany
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"Bazaar" by Schmidt Spiele in Germany
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"Bazaar" by Klee in Germany
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"Troca" by Estrele in Brazil
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Thread: Editions?

wwscrispin — 2008-05-09T18:05:10+00:00

How many editions of Bazaar were released?

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Flix — 2008-04-04T14:14:08+00:00

Close up of the "Bier Börse" bottle caps used as tokens (5)

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Flix — 2008-04-04T14:13:38+00:00

Close up of the "Bier Börse" bottle caps used as tokens (4)

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Flix — 2008-04-04T14:13:07+00:00

Close up of the "Bier Börse" bottle caps used as tokens (3)

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Flix — 2008-04-04T14:12:03+00:00

Close up of the "Bier Börse" bottle caps used as tokens (2)

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Flix — 2008-04-04T14:11:29+00:00

Close up of the "Bier Börse" bottle caps used as tokens (1)

Thread: Re: Tokens: May you hide them, or must they be public?

Barticus88 — 2008-01-12T05:19:10+00:00

Chump wrote:
It is unclear whether or not tokens in one's possession should be public or can be kept hidden. This makes a difference in how easy it is to decide whether or not to go after a specific Ware.

Public.

Thread: Re: i need these rules!!!!! please?

Barticus88 — 2008-01-12T05:17:57+00:00

Barticus88 wrote:
Bobby4th wrote:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/fileinfo.php?fileid=7030

It is the same game as Bazaar with a beer theme.

Similar, but far from the same.

Actually now that I examine it, the only difference is the end of game condition. You start with four stacks of five, when one stack is exhausted you go into the extra star mode (extra hop in BierBörse). In BierBörse, you then add more cards to the stacks, but in Sid's original rules you don't and when a second stack is exhausted, the game ends.

Thread: Re: Please Post Trade Cards

hokietiki — 2007-11-27T13:13:22+00:00

I'll try to upload that sometime this week. I'm glad it was the same as the newer version.

Thread: Re: Please Post Trade Cards

Twinge — 2007-11-26T01:58:25+00:00

beckientim wrote:
Is this the same as the Discovery Toy ones as well? Are the cards that someone posted in the file section the same as your cards? Thanks so much for doing that for me. That was very kind.

I just double checked, and yes, this is the same in the Discovery Toys edition.

hokietiki, you might want to put this into the file section.

Thread: Re: Please Post Trade Cards

beckientim — 2007-11-26T01:21:05+00:00

Is this the same as the Discovery Toy ones as well? Are the cards that someone posted in the file section the same as your cards? Thanks so much for doing that for me. That was very kind.

Thread: Re: Please Post Trade Cards

hokietiki — 2007-11-25T23:24:06+00:00

For the cards I'll use R, B, G, Y, W for red, blue gree, yellow and white.

Card 1: R=WW, B=YWG, YB=GR, R=BGYW, WG=YYRB
Card 2: G=BR, Y=WBR, YW=RG, GR=YWB, YRW=GGB
Card 3: W=RR, B=YYG, GG=WW, R=BBYY, BB=RRWG
Card 4: Y=WG, RR=BY, GY=RB, B=WWGY, GG=WYRB
Card 5: B=WY, WW=GR, RY=BB, GW=RRB, YYB=GGW
Card 6: Y=BR, B=WWG, YW=BG, YY=BRG, RRW=GYB
Card 7: W=RY, R=BGW, BB=GW, Y=WRGG, WB=RRYY
Card 8: B=GG, W=GRY, R=YBW, RG=BBY, WWG=BYR
Card 9: R=GB, B=RGY, Y=WWR, G=WRYB, WR=YYBG
Card 10:G=YW, G=BRR, W=BYR, GB=WRY, WW=BYGG

This is from the 1968 3M version. It is a quick version of what is on the cards. Each card has five trades, listed above. Hope it helps!

Thread: Please Post Trade Cards

beckientim — 2007-11-25T21:01:21+00:00

Would some kind soul be willing to type out all of the trade cards for me? Not the 54 cards but the actual 10 cards. Maybe you could upload it in the file section. THANKS

Thread: Re: How many tokens?

Barticus88 — 2007-10-22T08:47:11+00:00

rowdyray wrote:
I found a copy of the 1968 edition at a thrift store, but It seems to have a different number of each color token. I don't have the numbers right in front of me, but they varied from 17-19 of each color. I assume this is not correct. Could someone please tell me the correct number of tokens for this game. Thank in advance for any assistance.

It should have 20 of each, but 3M was inconsistent, and it varied by a few. 17 of each is adequate for a four player game.

Thread: Re: i need these rules!!!!! please?

Barticus88 — 2007-10-22T06:32:36+00:00

Bobby4th wrote:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/fileinfo.php?fileid=7030

It is the same game as Bazaar with a beer theme.

Similar, but far from the same.

Thread: How many tokens?

rowdyray — 2007-09-18T02:16:44+00:00

I found a copy of the 1968 edition at a thrift store, but It seems to have a different number of each color token. I don't have the numbers right in front of me, but they varied from 17-19 of each color. I assume this is not correct. Could someone please tell me the correct number of tokens for this game. Thank in advance for any assistance.

Thread: Re: missing two cards...

Twinge — 2007-09-08T09:26:33+00:00

EmeraldinK wrote:
Anyway, I was curious, too, about the distribution of cards, so here is a list from Discovery-Toys 1987 edition[...]

You should post this in a spreadsheet to the files section. There is one card listing up there already, but it's for the 'Special' version, which has a different card set up.

(Looks like the one I'm missing is a YRRWW then. I'll scan+photoshop myself up a card and paste it over one of the 5 extra 'Discovery toys' cards =))

Thread: Re: An underrated Sackson classic

Lindsey — 2007-05-26T03:55:35+00:00

edosan wrote:
... You are trying to trade games to get certain lots which score points...
That’s a fantastic Freudian slip!

Oh, and a good review, too.

Thread: An underrated Sackson classic

edosan — 2007-05-24T19:41:47+00:00

I stumbled on Bazaar out of dumb luck more than anything else. I found a couple copies while hitting the thrift stores and sold one. I kept the other one for a while, thinking "I should at least try this before I sell it off." I'm glad I did! Bazaar is a simple yet fun little game that we pull out from time to time.

The theme is that you're gem traders in the middle east. You are trying to trade games to get certain lots which score points. The version I have (the Discovery Toys version) uses glass beads and cards, as well as a die with several colors on it.

First of all, you pick two trading cards out of the set, which each have several equations like "red green green = white red yellow," for example. This means that if you have a red and two greens in your gem pile, you can trade them for a whit, a red, and a yellow. (It's important to note that it works the other way around!)

The objective is to get a group of gems that matches one of the four piles of cards in the center of the table. For example, one card might have four blues and a white. If you get that combination, you can give up those gems, claim that card, and get points. Points are determined on the rarity of the card (no stars, one, or two stars) and how many gems you have left over after you sell off that lot of five. (This makes it very important to keep the gems in your hand low, because a lot of extra gems in your pile means fewer points.

The turns go like this: on your turn, you can do one of two things:
1) Roll the die. Then you get one gem of the color you roll (if you get a star, you can pick a color).
2) Make a trade using the formulas previously described.

Then, if you can claim a card for points, you do so. The first person to a set number of points is the winner.

This is a difficult game to play with those prone to analysis paralysis, because things can slow down terribly. If played quickly, though, Bazaar is a hectic yet fun game that I have played in several groups with great success. The different trading cards help to make the game feel different every time (in some games, yellow gems are really valuable, sometimes it is red or white).

Notes: If you buy the Discovery Games version at a thrift store, I have found that the glass stones lose their colors badly over time. I went to the craft store and bought several bags of new stones when they were on sale for $1 a bag and they look great.

Thread: Re: Rules Differences?

herman_the_german — 2007-05-23T15:47:50+00:00

Can someone post the Special Edition Rules or email 'em to me? I have the regular DT edition rules, and have recently found the Spec. Ed. with no rules.
The weird thing is that the box says I should have 45 card plus 4 star cards. I have 54 regular cards on the special edition.

The regular edition also has a total of 54 cards, but these include the 4 star cards plus 5 "blank" cards.

I can play it regular, but would like to see the difference.

Thread: 40 years later, Sackson classic still fresh & utterly unique

topherr — 2007-05-13T09:38:48+00:00

I just played Sid Sackson's 1984 Metropolis recently and it got me thinking about his legacy. He's credited with designing 79 games, including some that are still highly rated - Acquire (44), A Gamut of Games (183), Can't Stop (202), I'm The Boss (206), and Sleuth (288).

The thing that confirms Sackson's genius is that, unlike the great designers of today, Sackson couldn't gain inspiration by playing the latest Knizia, Teuber, Kramer, Wallace or Moon. And when I play his games I'm struck by how fresh the mechanics are, not just compared with his mediocre contemporaries but compared with the smorgasbord we have today.

Bazaar, Sackson's abstract filler from 1967, despite a small devoted following, weighs in at the geek at a mere #828. And that's a shame, because not only is it utterly unique and brilliant in its simplicity, it's also a lot of fun - a devilish abstract filler game for 2 to 6.

Rules

The goal of the game is to trade chips for goods. The goods give you victory points.

The chips are in five different colors; each good requires exactly five chips of varying colors.

There are about 40 different goods cards. Twenty are used in each game, divided into five equal stacks. The game ends when two of the stacks are exhausted.

There are about 10 different trade cards, each with five legal types of trades. Two trade cards are used in each game, giving you 10 total legal trades in each game. For example:

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Each turn you either roll a die and take a chip of the corresponding color (or a chip of your choice if you roll a wild) or make one of the ten possible trades. Then you may, if able, spend five chips for one of the four available goods.

Here's the nifty part: when you obtain a goods card, you get victory points based on how few chips you have left - and based on the number of *'s. A small percentage of goods cards include an *. Also, once the first stack of cards is finished, another * is revealed. Thus only after the first stack is gone is it possible to score the ** column. Here is the VP chart:

Tokens Remaining......--.....*.....**
3 of more.......................1......2.....3
2....................................2......3.....5
1....................................3......5.....8
0....................................5......8.....12

GAME REVIEW CHECKLIST:
1. DEPTH/COMPLEXITY 8 of 10
"How many and how compelling are the decisions you make per minute?"
I find myself staring at the trade chart throughout the game, seeing new permutations, new options each time.

In the process of figuring out the trade I need to make a particular purchase I will often think "oh right, I can trade the red to get the green and white I need to buy that card - oh, but then I wouldn't have the red I need." Note that no color may be traded for itself (of course).

For a relatively light starter, which I think this is, there's plenty of meat on the bone.

- Analysis Paralysis/Downtime?
With the "right" group of players, Bazaar takes about a half hour. With heavyweight thinkers, it can easily take an hour. Don't play with them

Because players are vying for exactly the same goods, and b/c information is public, players have near-perfect information about their competitors - everything except for the next die roll. Thus you can tell if a player has any chance of beating you to a particular goods card. A word of advice: If you're thinking of overthinking it, just don't overthink it (I think)

I think the frustration that some players get is that the game may seem to encourage thinking through your zillion or so choices, but the end result just isn't as satisfying as in "heavier" games like Age of Steam. That's true. So if you can't stop yourself from thinking, I guess it really won't be that fun.

But Bazaar is definitely a game you can enjoy without constantly searching for the uberplay, especially because there's enough luck (hello, die roll) to keep it light. One nice antidote for the A/P is that if you ever get tired of searching for that perfect trade, you can just roll the die and take what fate hands you. (This actually happens quite a lot.)

2. MECHANICS 9 of 10
"How intuitive, elegant and flowing are the moves that bring your tactics to life?"
The rules are startling simple, the math behind the victory points inspired. Every good board game has good math behind it. The mathematical progression of victory points here is about perfect.

3. INTERACTION 6 of 10
"To what degree does it facilitate a rich social experience?"
The more you focus on racing other players to particular goods, the more you "interact." I, however, am not at all critical of "multi-player solitaire" games if the down time is relatively low because a large part of the social interaction in our groups has nothing to do with the game. I just think it's fun to watch other player's die rolls, see the wheels turning in their heads, watch what trades they make, etc. I'd put the level of interaction at about the same as Atlantic Star.

4. ORIGINALITY 10 of 10
"How fresh and unique are the strategy, mechanics and theme?"
So yeah, it's abstract. The stacks of cards are supposed to be "market stalls" and that's about as close to a Casablanca bazaar as you're going to get in this game. But amazingly, 40 years after its invention, there is simply no other game that reminds me of Bazaar at all.

What I like the most is how Bazaar makes me think. It's like exercising a muscle you only faintly remembered that you had. In a very, well, abstract way, the one other game that makes me feel like I'm working those long-forgotten muscles is Set. But although Set is also quite original, I actually have a lot more fun playing Bazaar - partly because it's not real time.

- What's the freshest part of the game?
First, the 10 possible trades is different every game. This means that the economics changes dramatically from game to game - sometimes red is very valuable, sometimes green. Note in the game pictured above one green coin can be traded for absolutely nothing; also note that the only single coin to trade for a blue coin is a red coin - nothing else will do.

Second, rather than encouraging players to vie for as many resources as they can, like many games, or limit the number of resources a player can store, like many other games, the game incentivizes having as few coins as possible - ideally zero - after completing each trade (there is actually a coin limit, but it's very high - ten coins). This both increases the tension and makes the trading chart still more interesting because of "reverse" trades which would otherwise be hugely inefficient.

Thus, in the game pictured, you might actually want to trade a white, yellow, green, and blue for a red (instead of the other way around) if that would allow you to finish a trade with 1 or zero coins. This also creates multiple victory trajectories - buying fewer goods (but with minimal coins left after purchase) or buying lots of goods, keeping lots of coins after each purchase, and trying to finish the game quickly before the "minimalist" players can pull off the killer purchase.

5. AMBIENCE 5 of 10
"How much do the theme, aesthetics and bits add the overall experience?"
To be fair, I own a worn original 3M copy that smells faintly of attic. The Discovery Toys version seems much prettier. Probably smells better too.

6. AUDIENCE
"Who would love this game?"
In the "not for everyone" category, I must admit that my friend Curt C (whose opinion is close my own on more games than not, and who is even a Sid Sackson fan) played Bazaar once and rated it a 2, proclaiming "Feels like a game for computers to play amongst themselves." So there you go.

If you like Set, if you crave games that just make you think differently, like Pueblo, like Hamsterrolle, like Set, then you may like Bazaar.

If you crave theme, if you hate guesstimating when a right answer feels just around the corner, if you hate games that combine both possible brain burn and dice, if you dislike "multi-player solitaire," just keep movin' right along.

One mea culpa I should give is that I'm color blind. Horribly so. So maybe the thrill I get from thinking through color combinations is skewed because my little brain noir just doesn't process colors that well. On the other hand, I do see Bazaar touted as something of an "educational game." Fortunately, it's better than that! I do, however, look forward to playing it with my 2-yr old son when he's around 8.

- Does it hit a sweet spot? Which one?
Absolutely. A light, abstract 2-6 player game (with solo variant!) that can be played in half an hour. Also, and this may seem damning by faint praise, it's the kind of filler game that I thoroughly enjoy for the process more than the end result (like Pickomino or Loopin' Louie), and thus am willing to quit if needed to start a meatier game.

Bazaar is also the rare game that lets you think as much or as little as you want to. There are times when I get into the "brain burning" mode and really enjoy puzzling it out (hopefully on other people's turns!). There are other times when I'm happy to just roll the die and take the coin it gives me, then look to see if I can buy anything that turn.

More than anything, it's just a game, like Loopin' Louie, that I can really enjoy even when I'm losing badly. Which is most of the times I play

- Luck (&Chaos) : Player Control
There's a healthy dose of luck, to me it's about perfect for what it is, and I think skill most always wins the day (did I mention I always lose?).

SUMMARY 7 of 10
About 10 years ago, at about 3 am one Saturday night at the Dragonflight convention in Seattle, I met an older gentleman from Portland named Andrew. He had wild hair, a long white beard, and unreasonably kind eyes. He pulled out a tattered old box of Bazaar out of a larger tattered old box. He explained the rules to us in about 27 seconds. It seemed simple enough. But trying to figure out all those weird color combinations on minimal sleep was, well, bizarre (who needs drugs when you've got these potent combinations?). I haven't seen you in a while, Andrew. So thank you for learnin' me Bazaar.

Thread: Re: Help! Which Edition should I keep?

jollypirate — 2007-02-14T18:31:59+00:00

ARRRGH! I just ebayed it a couple days ago. I agree on the pieces, and I liked the box better too...but space, and the few extra dollars it was going for made my decision.

Anyway.

Thanks for the input!

-Frank

Thread: Re: Help! Which Edition should I keep?

ahtitan — 2007-02-14T15:15:29+00:00

The 3M version. The little koku pieces are cooler than generic beads, and 3M games are nice to own. Plus, if you ever get a hankering to play the Discovery version, I have it.

Thread: Re: Solitaire?

Starsunsky — 2007-01-26T15:27:15+00:00

The player chooses 2 Barter Cards and one Merchandise Card. Trade and/or roll the Color Die until the Merchandise Card is matched with * NO * Jewels remaining.

Thread: Solitaire?

martin47 — 2007-01-25T23:43:09+00:00

I was wonder if anyone has ideas about how to play this game as a solitaire?

Thread: Help! Which Edition should I keep?

jollypirate — 2007-01-23T19:41:19+00:00

I have both the 3M version and the Discovery Toys Version, the purple one, which should I keep?

No fair saying both as I need space/money right now.

-Frank

Thread: First Session with Bazaar

ebailey — 2007-01-06T17:22:25+00:00

I got a copy of this game through a BGG trade after hearing that it was something I would enjoy. The game came in yesterday, so I was keen to get it on the table to see how it played!

Michelle Corbin, Earl Bailey (me), and Josh Hunholz were the players. I read the rules ahead of time - they seemed simple enough.

The components of the game were very nice and well-kept. The boards and cards are colorful and easy to read. I reviewed the rules and explained them in 5 minutes or so.

The game is definitely very abstract, and at times I felt the urge to over-analyze my play decisions. The scoring mechanic that awards having fewer gems left over from a completed orders really tempted me into trying to figure out the perfect way of exchanging gems. This might make the game really drag with the wrong group of people. I suppose that some might enjoy the mental gymastics enough that they could deal with the down time waiting for others to take their turns - I think I prefer keeping the game going a little faster.

We found that the orders with stars on them really made a difference in determining the victor of the game. Michelle filled a 2 star order early in the game which was enough to eventually insure her victory. She mostly kept to a strategy of filling the tougher orders with few gems left over.

I tried a churn strategy to see how the game would hold up to it - basically forgoing the bonus for few gems left over so that I could fill orders faster. This landed me second place, and I think it is not a game that is easily 'broken' this way.

We all enjoyed the puzzle aspect of the game and came away with satisfaction, win or lose. Definitely a good addition to the library.

Thread: Re: Tokens: May you hide them, or must they be public?

DougOrleans — 2006-11-09T19:08:42+00:00

For what it's worth, the Brettspielwelt implementation makes all gems public, so that's how I've played the face-to-face game. I think the game has little enough interaction as it is, so why not let people see what others are doing?

Thread: Re: Opting out of rolling Color Die AND Trading

Lancer4321 — 2006-11-09T18:24:32+00:00

Verbatim from the rules of the 3M version (1968 edition) of the game:

"On subsequent turns (i.e. not the first turn), each player may either roll the Color Die for another Token or "trade" Tokens in his possession."

(bold emphasis of "or" is in the rules)

At issue here is whether the designer's intended emphasis is on the word "may" or the word "either." If the emphasis is supposed to be on "may" then it implies that the player does not have to do either action and may, instead, pass (i.e. do nothing). If the emphasis is supposed to be on "either" then it implies that the player is supposed to perform one of the two actions (effectively meaning that you 'must' either roll or trade).

I've been playing the 3M version of the game since 1971, and I've played it with several different groups. I've never seen the option to 'pass' on your turn used; in every case it's always been that you must either roll or trade -- there is no 'pass' option.

With regards to the order of purchasing cards, the rules of the 3M version (1968 edition) of the game state:

"A player must roll the Color Die or trade before he may purchase Wares."

(bold emphasis of "before" is in the rules)

Very clearly stated here, you *must* roll or trade before you can buy. This also tends to further support the interpretation of the previously discussed rules that you don't have an option to 'pass' during your turn.

Finally, there is an OPTIONAL rule (all caps and bold case taken directly from the rules) that states:

"At the start of the game players may agree to allow the purchase of two Wares cards in one turn. The player making this double purchase must return five Tokens to the Exchange for each Wares card purchased. Wares are scored according to the number of Tokens remaining after the double purchase."

Thread: Re: Opting out of rolling Color Die AND Trading

GaryP — 2006-11-09T18:04:29+00:00

The scenario the original poster is asking about is this:

You have five gems from your previous turn.
The player before you purchases a card.
The next card revealed just so happens to match the five gems you are holding.
Can you simply purchase the card, or do you have to roll or trade first?
If you have to roll, you will get less points for the purchase, since you will now have a gem left over.

After typing that out, and now knowing the correct rules, I believe it is better that a player must roll or trade before a purchase. This would mitigate the element of chance by reducing the advantage gained by a player from such an event.

Thread: Re: Opting out of rolling Color Die AND Trading

Blackberry — 2006-11-09T17:50:09+00:00

I can't figure out what is to gain by passing your turn. If you don't want to roll the die because you have a trade to make and don't want extra gems, then why not just make the trade? And if you can't make a trade or purchase, then why not get another gem that may allow you ro trade or purchase next turn?

Thread: Re: Opting out of rolling Color Die AND Trading

Blackberry — 2006-11-09T17:43:23+00:00

Thread: Re: Opting out of rolling Color Die AND Trading

GaryP — 2006-11-09T17:23:02+00:00

Many thanks!

Having told others on multiple occasions to check the Links section (usually for FAQs) before asking questions, I'll just wander off in quiet shame now.

Thread: Re: Opting out of rolling Color Die AND Trading

thatmarkguy — 2006-11-09T17:16:20+00:00

You'll probably want to go here:

http://www.jfab.com/games/docs/bazaar.html

(courtesy the 'links' section of the game entry here - sometimes the file section jsust ain't enough! )

Print what you see and throw the printout in your Bazaar set.

Thread: Re: Opting out of rolling Color Die AND Trading

GaryP — 2006-11-09T17:06:02+00:00

Heh. This is exactly why I need the rules, and likely why I didn't enjoy the game when we unearthed it a few years ago. I may be able to mostly remember how my brothers and I played it when I was a ten-year-old, but I can't expect that ten-year-old to have gotten all the rules right. =)

Thread: Re: Opting out of rolling Color Die AND Trading

thatmarkguy — 2006-11-09T16:58:11+00:00

GaryP wrote:
Even if it said you must either roll the die or trade, is there anything that specifically forbids trading using an equation and then trading again on the same turn using that equation in reverse? I'm not looking for a loophole as much as suggesting that "trading" can mean as few as zero actual exchanges.

Uh, you can only make one trade in a turn. If you trade and trade again on the same turn you've made two trades.

You can, of course, make a trade; and then on the following turn make the inverse trade (landing you back at your original holding, at which point you buy the card in question).

But if you could make more than one trade in a turn - even more than one involving the same equation - Bazaar would be a very different game indeed.

(Discovery Toys rules: "On subsequent turns a player may either throw the Color Die for a Jewel or make one trade. To make a trade, a player chooses one of the ten equations on the two Barter Cards. After announc-ing the chosen equation, the player returns Jewels matching one side of the equation, and then takes Jewels matching the other side of the equation.")

I don't believe you can make *fewer* than one (though that may be an ambiguity of rule text in different printings). But I don't imagine any printing ever allowed the interpretation that you could make more than one trade in a turn.

(For what it's worth, the BrettSpielWelt.de rules and implementation specifically say "A purchase without prior pulling or trading is not permitted.")

Thread: Re: Opting out of rolling Color Die AND Trading

GaryP — 2006-11-09T16:33:21+00:00

It's been a long time since I've played, but I'm quite sure we always allowed a player to skip right to a purchase.

Even if it said you must either roll the die or trade, is there anything that specifically forbids trading using an equation and then trading again on the same turn using that equation in reverse? I'm not looking for a loophole as much as suggesting that "trading" can mean as few as zero actual exchanges.

My Discovery Toys rulebook has long ago vanished, so I may be completely wrong. The "beer" version's rules posted on here have helped in remembering how many wares cards to display at a time, but a scan or transcription of the 3M or Discovery Toys rules would be nice for comparison and having something more "official" on hand.

Thread: Re: Opting out of rolling Color Die AND Trading

LordT — 2006-11-09T07:39:56+00:00

The Discovery Toys 1987 Edition Instructions contains following :
Taking Items
When, after rolling the Color Die or trading, a player possesses five jewels that match the colors of one of the displayed Merchandise Cards, that player may, as part of his turn, purchase that Merchandise Card.

To me the red part means that you first have to either roll a die or make a trade in your turn before purchasing a Ware.

Thread: Re: Tokens: May you hide them, or must they be public?

LordT — 2006-11-09T07:24:15+00:00

The rules don't specify whether the tokens should be public or kept hidden. Because the game doesn't come with anything to hide the tokens, I would assume that the intention is to keep them public.
Nevertheless, I believe you can just choose which way to go before you start playing.
I never played keeping the tokens hidden, but it has certainly has some advantages. For one, it solves the 'issue' of people grabbing a specific ware with lots of tokens left before you can get it with nothing left after lots of trading.

Thread: Re: Tokens: May you hide them, or must they be public?

Blackberry — 2006-11-09T03:06:14+00:00

True, though in my edition, they are rounded glass beads, not exactly easy to stack and not exactly concealed if you flip them over.

Thread: Tokens: May you hide them, or must they be public?

Chump — 2006-11-09T01:58:35+00:00

It is unclear whether or not tokens in one's possession should be public or can be kept hidden. This makes a difference in how easy it is to decide whether or not to go after a specific Ware.

Thread: Opting out of rolling Color Die AND Trading

Chump — 2006-11-09T00:28:59+00:00

Can you?

Can you forgo both rolling the Color Die and trading?

It is unclear whether one must either roll the die or trade during each turn; due to a purchase of a Ware by a player prior to one's turn, one could start one's turn with the ability to purchase a subsequently revealed Ware. Obviously, in this case, one would be in a position where rolling the die or trading would be undesirable, and the rule reads: ' ... each player may either roll the Color Die for another Token or "trade" Tokens in his possession.' There appears to exist some latitude in the interpretation (due to the word "may", which perhaps should have been "must"), although it seems that the intent was that one must perform one of the possible actions.

The rules quote above is from the 1968 3M version of the game--perhaps later versions contain rules which clarify this matter ... ?