Game: Princeps Machiavelli

Thread: Ideal number of players for Princeps Machiavelli

RichardAndrew — 2008-07-28T18:14:54+00:00

I've just ordered my copy of Princeps Machiavelli, and I am pretty excited with the prospects of playing my first game in about a week. So, has anyone played this game with 2 players? 3 to 5 players? I am curious as to how this game plays out with different numbers of players.

Thanks

Richard

Thread: Initial Impression

rdsmith — 2007-12-02T00:53:59+00:00

This inaugural Alesia Games offering is difficult to categorize. Which, in my book, is a good thing. It reminds me of CCGs with cards having specific powers, direct player interaction, and hand management. But, in play, it feels more of a family strategy card game that Adlung would produce. And, it’s the only game I can think of that gives you a philosophy lesson while playing! (Each card has substantial passages from The Prince, written by Niccolo Machiavelli.)

First, to give you an idea of play, below is a brief synopsis:

SET-UP:
1. Each player is randomly given -
1 Principality/Prince card (extra Princes are removed from play)
3 Territory cards
1 Citizen Army card (2 if your Prince is Noble)
1 Mercenary Army card
2. Shuffle together all remaining cards. This is placed face down as the draw pile.
3. Your Territory cards are placed in front of you. The remainder of your dealt cards is your start hand which is kept hidden from the other players.

SEQUENCE OF PLAY:
Determine initial player turn order. After each player has taken their turn, the first player of the new turn rotates clockwise.
1. Draw Cards
a. Return all your cards from your Territories to your hand (except Settler cards, Fort cards, and cards occupying independent Territories through previous Conspiracy actions).
b. Draw cards equal to the number of your Territory cards plus 4.
c. Discard any excess cards. (Maximum hand size is 12.)
2. Negotiation
a. Player may exchange cards in hand or those in play with other players, make pacts, etc.
b. Control of Prince cards cannot change.
3. Preparation
a. May place any new Territory cards face up in front of you.
b. May place any or all other cards from your hand onto any of your Territory cards, face down. (Be sure the type of Territory and its crests remain exposed.)
4. Actions
a. The number of actions a player may perform is limited to his number of Command cards in play. (Captain = military action = blue symbol, Councilor = political action = yellow symbol, and Prince = either action.)
b. An action may be performed using any number of cards in a territory against any opposing territory with a matching crest. (Defending is not considered an action.) However, attacking or defending with more than 1 army card in a territory requires a Command card for each card.
c. Simple majority wins each battle.
Winner:
•Gains opponent’s Territory card. Cards used in its conquest are placed with it.
•Conquered Territory cards are destabilized (turned sideways) for the remainder of the game. (The only effect is on victory points.)
Loser:
•Discards all Mercenary armies. All Command and Citizen army cards are returned to hand, but cannot be used until the next round.
•May sacrifice additional Citizen army cards to eliminate random army cards of the attacker, one for one.
Tie:
•Each side loses a random army card.
d. A Prince or Councilor may stabilize a destabilized territory by being in the territory and performing no other action.

NOTES:
1. Revolts and conspiracies are resolved the same way as military battles, but are instigated using a Councilor or Prince.
2. Command cards used in gaining a territory by revolt or conspiracy are not transferred to the won territory.
3. A territory conquered by conspiracy is placed in the middle of the table with the conspiracy card as an independent territory. A player may gain an independent territory by any subsequent successful attack.
4. Military battles by sea (a ship crest) incur a -1 penalty. Revolts and conspiracies by sea do not suffer this penalty.

GAME END & VICTORY:
The game is played to a predetermined number of complete rounds (minimum of 5). The player with the most victory points at the end of the game is the winner. One victory point is awarded to the player with the most:
Territories
Stabilized territories with gold
Stabilized commerce territories
Stabilized agriculture territories
If there is a tie in points, the winner is the player with the most:
1. Stabilized territories
2. Territories with gold
3. Commerce territories

With the typical card draw randomness, and variable paths to victory, PM develops differently during each play. And, with each victory condition being only worth one point, winning is always a close ordeal! Although far from being classified as a wargame, with each force being hidden until acted upon in a “fog of war” simulation, and a very balanced and thematic use of military and political powers, this little gem is quite a mix of pleasant surprises. PM is not The Last Crusade, Anachronism, or any type of wargame in any stretch of the imagination, and it doesn’t pretend to be. My best comparison would be a hybrid of Euro and the Eagles/Dixie card games, but much more family accessible.

Before I heap any more praises on this fine game, it does have some shortcomings:
1. The cards are not playing card quality, and will need to be laminated to endure multiple plays. Unfortunately, they are a very odd size, so sleeves won’t work.
2. It would have been much more player friendly to have more detailed descriptions on each card regarding its use, and shorten the quotes from The Prince.
3. It is a bit expensive for what you get. (But, in Alesia’s defense, it is somewhat expected for a limited edition game.)

I would like to get a few more playings under my belt before passing final judgment, but overall, Princeps Machiavelli appears to be a unique and worthwhile addition to the few fine card games that play like a board game. Recommended.

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Toynan — 2007-11-11T15:58:48+00:00

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Toynan — 2007-11-11T15:36:08+00:00

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Toynan — 2007-11-11T15:34:51+00:00

Thread: Princeps of Machiavelli

-xXx- — 2007-11-01T20:53:45+00:00

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/29218

What is this game, is it worth the money?

Thread: Various rules questions

tool — 2007-09-21T02:39:49+00:00

I'm afraid the revised rules and the tutorial still leave me unclear on several points.

1. Does each player perform all actions at once, before the next player does any, or does each player do one action per turn (going around until everyone has performed all actions)? The tutorial shows the former, but the rules lead me to think the latter.

2. Does a Fort or Settlers have any effect if the territory is attacked before the player has had a chance to take an action to turn it face up? I assume not, but if that is true going first in the round seems a huge advantage.

3. Can any card be played from the hand? Comments in one of the other rules threads implied this, but the tutorial makes me think this is not the case.

4. Can a Prince or Councillor perform an action and also use Punishment in the same round? Can one of them use more than one Punishment (against different attacks)?

5. Does the ship symbol count as a coat-of-arms for attack purposes - that is, if two territories both have a ship, can one of them attack the other? If not making the ship look like the other coats-of-arms is VERY confusing.

6. When does the -1 penalty for a sea battle apply? Whenever a territory with a ship is attacked? What if the territory also has another coat-of-arms and I attack from a territory showing that one?

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fenolin — 2007-08-29T16:07:22+00:00

Page 3 - Home made version; rules explained at card! Aproved by the game designer Borja López

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fenolin — 2007-08-29T16:06:32+00:00

Page 2 - Home made version; rules explained at card! Aproved by the game designer Borja López

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fenolin — 2007-08-29T16:05:41+00:00

Page 1 - Home made version; rules explained at card! Aproved by the game designer Borja López

Thread: Re: Questions on New Rules and Tutorial

Chris Dorrell — 2007-05-19T08:44:09+00:00

Thank goodness.

I think the main thing which is not made clear in the official rules is what's contained in action 1.1 above.

I don't think the rules actually say anywhere that you pick up your non territory cards at the start of a turn. Also having the rule, about Forts and Settlers not moving, in the card description section is fine but it should be mentioned in the main rules as well.

Now we have that fundamental part sorted we'll play test the rest of the rules.

Cheers
Chris

Thread: Re: Questions on New Rules and Tutorial

Borja Lopez — 2007-05-19T01:15:46+00:00

Yes, that’s right.
Perfect!

Thread: Re: Questions on New Rules and Tutorial

Chris Dorrell — 2007-05-19T00:55:30+00:00

Borja,

Thanks for the response.

So let me try and word the relevant rules as I understand them:-

4.1 Before Play

The last sentence should read:-
Each player places his three Territories face up on the table.

4.2 Playing the Game
...
...
1) Drawing Cards:

Each player in turn:-

1.1 Takes back into his hand any face down unused cards and all face up used cards except for Settlers and Forts which must remain in the territories in which they were played. Note also that any successful Conspiracy cards in independent territories in the middle of the table are not picked up by any player. Territories are never picked up once played.
1.2 Discards any unwanted cards.
1.3 Calculates his hand limit. This is the number of territories he owns (stabilised or destabilised) + 4. The hand limit cannot be more than 12. Thus a player with 6 territories has a hand limit of 10 cards and one with 9 territories has a hand limit of 12 (not 13!).
1.4 Draws or discards enough cards to bring the number of cards in his hand to equal his hand limit. Prince cards are included in the hand count.

Then the next player picks up and draws cards in the same way.

Note: On the first turn when no cards have been played, steps 1.1 and 1.2 above are omitted. Also the hand limit will be always be 7 on the first turn (3 territories + 4). This will mean that most players will draw 4 cards as they will already have a Prince card, 1 citizen army card and 1 mercenary army card. The exception is a Noble Principality which will only draw 3 cards as it starts with an extra Citizens army.

Is that right?

Chris

Thread: Re: Questions on New Rules and Tutorial

Borja Lopez — 2007-05-18T21:31:10+00:00

The cards remaining in territories in ROUND 2 (Drawing Cards Stage) are special cards like Settlers Cards, Fort Cards or Conspiracy Card. These Cards can remain fixed in territories.

Player 1 has 6 grey cards which are presumably what he has picked up; he has 4 territories so he is entitled to 4+4=8 cards and therefore picks up 2 more cards. OK so far but why has the Revolt card on the sea bordered territory not been picked up?

Is not a Revolt Card it’s a Fort Card. And this type of card must remain in territory. (See Fort Card in Rules, 5.12.).

Now for Player 2. He has picked up 6 (grey) cards and has 3 territories. He discards 1 and draws 2 bringing him up to 7 which is his hand limit of 7 (3 territories +4). Again OK but there’s a Settler card still on his third territory.

Settler Card must remain in territory fixed. (See Settler Card in Rules, 5.10.).

Thanks.

Thread: Questions on New Rules and Tutorial

Chris Dorrell — 2007-05-18T20:05:47+00:00

OK guys here we go,

First of all the new rules are a lot better. There are a few phrases I would alter and I'll comment on those in another post.

My main concern is that I'm still confused about the "Drawing Cards" phase. Taking this a stage at a time:-

1. Maximum Number of Cards.
My original understanding from version 1 of the rules was that you drew cards equal to number of territories possessed + 4. If this meant you had more than 12 cards in hand then you discarded down to 12. I was unclear whether you had to discard before or after the card draw.

The new rules and tutorial now state that the number of territories possessed + 4 gives the maximum hand size. The 12 maximum only applies if a player has 9 territories in which case he could not have 13 cards.

Is this significant change in the rules intended and have I got it right?

2. Picking Up Cards
In a reply in an earlier thread here on BGG, Borja stated:-
In "Drawing Cards Stage" players must take all the cards on the territories (command and action cards), then, players can discard and take new cards.

In other words I take that to mean that if at the end of a round I have 5 territories, 8 cards on them and none in hand, I pick up the eight cards, discard any I don’t want and draw back up to 9 cards (5 territories +4).

BUT In the tutorial on the “ROUND 2 Drawing Cards" page all of the cards are not picked up!....

Player 1 has 6 grey cards which are presumably what he has picked up; he has 4 territories so he is entitled to 4+4=8 cards and therefore picks up 2 more cards. OK so far but why has the Revolt card on the sea bordered territory not been picked up?

Now for Player 2. He has picked up 6 (grey) cards and has 3 territories. He discards 1 and draws 2 bringing him up to 7 which is his hand limit of 7 (3 territories +4). Again OK but there’s a Settler card still on his third territory.

So do you “take all the cards on the territories (command and action cards)” as Borja stated or are there some card types you can leave behind? In the same thread Borja also wrote: “You can't leave command or action cards over the territories to increase the cards in hand.” But this appears to be what players 1 and 2 are doing in the tutorial!

These card management issues are so fundamental to game play that I think we need to nail down the correct and intended approach before we go any further.

As ever, apologies in advance if I’ve missed something or got things completely wrong.

I look forward to Borja’s reply.
Cheers
Chris

Thread: Revised English rules booklet and new graphic tutorials.

Borja Lopez — 2007-05-17T23:53:33+00:00

You can consult the new English rules booklet in: http://www.alesiagames.com/grafic/RULES%20PRINCEPS%20MACHIAV...
And the graphic game tutorial in: http://www.alesiagames.com/grafic/tutorialPM2.rar

Spanish versions in: http://www.alesiagames.com/grafic/REGLAS%20PRINCEPS%20MACHIA...
http://www.alesiagames.com/grafic/tutorialPMEsp2.rar

Thread: Re: Conspiracies and other questions

Chris Dorrell — 2007-05-16T08:49:37+00:00

Borja,

OK I've downloaded the files and will look at them as soon as I can and give you some feedback.

Cheers
Chris

Thread: Re: Conspiracies and other questions

Borja Lopez — 2007-05-15T20:25:23+00:00

Chris and Mikko,

The revised English rules of P. Machiavelli are uploaded in Alesia Games Web Site (http://www.alesiagames.com/gamesalesia.htm).

Additionally, there is a graphic tutorial in: http://www.alesiagames.com/grafic/tutorialPM2.rar

Sorry for the wait...

Cheers,
Borja

Thread: Re: Interesting Game – but is there enough game for the mone

Borja Lopez — 2007-05-15T20:13:16+00:00

The English revised rules of P. Machiavelli are uploaded in Alesia Games Web Site (http://www.alesiagames.com/gamesalesia.htm).

Additionally there is a graphic tutorial in: http://www.alesiagames.com/grafic/tutorialPM2.rar

Thread: Re: Conspiracies and other questions

Chris Dorrell — 2007-05-10T12:43:32+00:00

Borja Lopez wrote:
We are now making the corrections of the English rules set, and also I am finishing a graphic tutorial to play Princeps Machiavelli.

Thanks!

Borja,

Good news - I'm sure it will be worth your while in the long run.

Are you going to take up our suggestion of having the English rules checked out and play tested?

I haven't received my copy of the game from you yet but when I do I'll be happy to play a few games with the revised rules and give you quick feedback.

Cheers
Chris

Thread: Re: Interesting Game – but is there enough game for the mone

Borja Lopez — 2007-05-10T12:31:26+00:00

Matthew,

The English rule booklet is temporally unavailable because we are making some corrections and a graphic tutorial. I think that in two days the booklet will be uploaded in Alesia Games site.

Sorry,

Borja.

Thread: Re: Interesting Game – but is there enough game for the money?

bigcheese — 2007-05-10T10:12:38+00:00

Chris Dorrell wrote:
I have downloaded the rules and studied them to establish if there is enough game in there to justify the spend.

May I ask from where? I have found the card images and an example of play but no rule booklet.

Thread: Re: Conspiracies and other questions

Borja Lopez — 2007-05-10T01:07:05+00:00

We are now making the corrections of the English rules set, and also I am finishing a graphic tutorial to play Princeps Machiavelli.

Thanks!

Thread: Re: Conspiracies and other questions

msaari — 2007-05-07T03:17:27+00:00

I tried to play the game, but when I started to explain the rules, I realised it can't be done. It's still too much of a mess. I'm putting this aside until there's a thorough FAQ or new set of rules. Just too much questions...

Thread: Re: Conspiracies and other questions

Chris Dorrell — 2007-05-04T10:41:07+00:00

Wow - you two have been busy - this thread is almost an FAQ in it's own right!

I think most of my current questions have been covered. Each answer gives a better understanding of the basic mechanics.

As for the rules, they certainly need to be revised but if the games are already shrink wrapped and ready to go/despatched then I agree with Mikko that a good FAQ would be fine. You could always post up a new set of rules on BGG and your web site in a month or so to replace the FAQ. Given your problems with the translation I would get the FAQ and any revised rules checked by English speaking gamers. I'd be happy to help. Over the years I have seen some horrendous rule translations which have obviously been done by non gamers.

One general issue that needs to be clear for each card is which territories it can affect. For example:-

Current Territory: Fort, Legal Reform .....
Adjacent Territory: Armies, Conspiracy, Revolt .....
Any Territory: Punishment, Machiavelli, Spy?? ....

That's not comprehensive and I'm not sure about Spy. The list might need splitting between own and enemy territories. Just a thought.

I'll be interested to hear how the first game goes Mikko.

Thanks for the replies Borja.

Chris

Thread: Re: Conspiracies and other questions

msaari — 2007-05-04T04:55:07+00:00

Borja Lopez wrote:
When a player was attacked with a Conspiracy the player can use de Punishment to neutralize the Conspiracy. But if the Conspiracy wins the territory is placed in the middle of the table with the Conspiracy Card. This territory was independent and the players must fight with the Conspirators to take it.

Ok. So the Punishment needs to be played with a Prince or Councillor to the area that's the victim of Conspiracy? Makes sense, I suppose.

I also suppose everybody can try to take over the territory once it's independent?

Yes I know. I have a big problem now because I have seen with your comments that the English version of the rules has a lot of errors.

Yes, there are definitely serious problems with the rules. But a thorough FAQ should sort them out.

Thread: Re: Conspiracies and other questions

Borja Lopez — 2007-05-04T04:18:36+00:00

When a player was attacked with a Conspiracy the player can use de Punishment to neutralize the Conspiracy. But if the Conspiracy wins the territory is placed in the middle of the table with the Conspiracy Card. This territory was independent and the players must fight with the Conspirators to take it.

Yes I know. I have a big problem now because I have seen with your comments that the English version of the rules has a lot of errors. The original rules were written in Spanish, and the testers of the game were from Spain. We had paid for a professional translation, but the translation is awful!

I should stop the sales, and contact with the buyers.

Thanks!

Thread: Re: Conspiracies and other questions

msaari — 2007-05-04T03:52:30+00:00

Borja Lopez wrote:
An independent territory with a Conspiracy Card only can be defeated with an army.

So how do you use Punishment then?

Cards in hand must be Number Territories + 4. But if the player has 8 or more territories the maximum number of cards in his hand must be 12.

Ok. This is one of those things that could be made more explicit in the rules.

Thread: Re: Conspiracies and other questions

Borja Lopez — 2007-05-04T03:37:36+00:00

An independent territory with a Conspiracy Card only can be defeated with an army.

Cards in hand must be Number Territories + 4. But if the player has 8 or more territories the maximum number of cards in his hand must be 12.

Thread: Re: Conspiracies and other questions

msaari — 2007-05-04T02:31:09+00:00

Can anybody play Punishment to stop a conspiracy and to take over the territory, or only the player who is the original owner of the territory?

It would be nice if the rules said the initial territories are placed on the table.

How does the drawing actually work? Do you draw (number of territories) + 4 and discard if you go over 12, or is (number of territories) + 4 your maximum hand size? First I thought it was the latter, then reading the rules made me think it's the former, but what you said now seems to imply it's the latter?

Thread: Re: Conspiracies and other questions

Borja Lopez — 2007-05-04T00:49:01+00:00

Hi,

Here are some answers to the questions:

So, how do the conspiracies work? You play Conspiracy with a Prince or a Councillor, attack with strength of 1 (or 2, if you're attacking a Noble territory). Defender can use armies to defend. If you win, Conspiracy is placed on the territory, which is then placed in the middle. Is that correct?
Yes, that is correct. And if a player wants to conquer this independent territory the player must fight against the conspirators (who have +1 strength). And if the Conspirators are in a territory with Fort their force will be +2.

That would be simple, but not appropriate in this game. The rule quote means - I think - that the Prince or Councillor can play the Punishment card in any territory - it doesn't have to be a territory that borders with with the territory suffering from Conspiracy.
The Prince or Councillor can play the Punishment in any territory. The reason of this rule is simple: It's very difficult to know when and where a player is going to attack with a conspiracy, if the punishment could be used only in border territories, players would not conserve the card in their hands, because it would not be sufficiently powerful. The cards in a player's hand never are enough to do all the player's wants and players should choose very well the cards to remain.

I'm glad you raised the question of the Ecclesiastic Principality (EP). This seems way out of balance as you say. Like you, I cannot see how the EP player can be defeated by Conspiracy except in Noble Territories. A third of the territories are Noble but even so it seems a huge advantage. Note that Hereditary Principality has +1 against Conspiracy and Popular Principality has +1 against Revolts so they have half the EP benefit. It's the Noble Prince that is worst off I think. His additional army card benefit could easily be overtaken by the luck of the cards during the game, whereas the other advantages are permanent.
The supremacy of the Ecclesiastic Prince is founded in Niccolò Machiavelli’s thought and for this reason we wanted to show it in the game. But the advantages of this principality are not so decisive in the game play. Councillors and Princes with Conspiracies can’t do many other important actions. Revolts and Conspiracies aren’t so powerful because:
-They need a Councillor or a Prince: to have a Councillor is not so easy and, if the player has not a Captain, the Prince has to command the army.
-With a Conspiracy the player doesn’t gain a territory, and moreover the territory is independent and defended by the conspirators in the middle of the table.
-Conspiracies and Revolts are cards that the player loses once they are played.

The Noble Prince has a Citizen Army Card extra and this card is highly valuable because in battles generally this type of army is not lost.

1. How many cards do you draw on the first turn of the game? You are dealt 3 Territory cards but these are not yet on the table. I assume that you therefore just draw the +4 cards giving you 10 cards to start: The Prince, 3 x Territory, 1 Citizen Army, 1 Mercenary Army and the 4 draw cards. (+1 if you're a Noble Principality)
In the Preparation of game players must have 3 territories on the table, 1 Citizen Army and 1 Mercenary Army (Noble Prince has 3 territories, 2 Citizen Armies and 1 Mercenary Army). In the First Stage players can discard cards and take new cards with a maximum of 7 (3 territories + 4).

Thanks!
Borja

Thread: Re: Conspiracies and other questions

Chris Dorrell — 2007-05-03T11:45:31+00:00

Mikko,

First of all huge apologies - in my comments on territory cards I meant to say the LAST player in the round has the advantage. I'll add a comment to my original post. In fact I suggest that the first player has the disadvantage and then subsequent players have an increasing advantage as more territories are revealed. How this is played may come down to personal preference.

Punishment Card - I agree. I think what we're coming to is that you play the Punishment Card in a territory with the Prince or Councillor and then you can reveal it to stop a Conspiracy in an adjacent or non adjacent territory. Presumably the Conspiracy is discarded. Does the conspiring Prince or Councillor get banished back to the player's hand? If not where is the punishment as the Prince (say) could go on to lead an attack if an army is present?

Rules - I also agree that it may come down to a rewrite. That would not be unusual for a first publication which PM is, as I understand it. Only Borja at Alesia Games can confirm the amount of play testing. You are right, blind testing is important as having the game explained and being lead by the designer allows the sort of issues we're raising to be missed.

Over to you Borja!

Cheers
Chris

Thread: Re: Conspiracies and other questions

msaari — 2007-05-03T11:12:41+00:00

Chris Dorrell wrote:
The Punishment card sounds like a card you can play from hand to just stop Conspiracy dead but that can't be right. It must have to be laying face down in the "attacked" Territory. What does "It can be used on any of one's own territories, without having to border it." mean I wonder?
That would be simple, but not appropriate in this game. The rule quote means - I think - that the Prince or Councillor can play the Punishment card in any territory - it doesn't have to be a territory that borders with with the territory suffering from Conspiracy.

1. How many cards do you draw on the first turn of the game? You are dealt 3 Territory cards but these are not yet on the table. I assume that you therefore just draw the +4 cards giving you 10 cards to start:
Yes, your assumption seems logical. That's the way I read it too.

2. Are Territory cards played face down initially and then all players turn them over simultaneously?
Well, the rules say they are face up (c. 3) and face down (c. 5.14) I'd still play them face up.

Otherwise the first player in the round has the advantage of seeing the border icons and territory types of other players. It looks like this would be a particular advantage when playing the first turn of the game.
I don't think the first player advantage is that big. It's balanced by the fact that in the preparations phase, the first player knows nothing. The last player is in best position, it seems, as he can see what the others have done. Sure, first player gets to act first, but he has to prepare blind.

I think Alesia Games are going to need a PM FAQ on their website don't you?
I'd prefer a completely new set of rules. What they really need is some thorough blind playtesting - I'm pretty sure there was none (or if there was, I suggest getting better playtesters).

Thread: Re: Conspiracies and other questions

Chris Dorrell — 2007-05-03T09:24:07+00:00

Mikko,

Like you I haven't played this yet but it has potential I think and the design and ideas merit some effort in untangling the rules.

I agree with your assessment of the rules they are not clear on a number of issues. You will have seen the thread I posted containing questions which Alesia Games answered very quickly.

I also agree that having flavour text take up so much of the card is a waste.

Your description of Conspiracy play looks right to me as it's pretty much Example 3 on the website.

The Punishment card sounds like a card you can play from hand to just stop Conspiracy dead but that can't be right. It must have to be laying face down in the "attacked" Territory. What does "It can be used on any of one's own territories, without having to border it." mean I wonder?

I'm glad you raised the question of the Ecclesiastic Principality (EP). This seems way out of balance as you say. Like you, I cannot see how the EP player can be defeated by Conspiracy except in Noble Territories. A third of the territories are Noble but even so it seems a huge advantage. Note that Hereditary Principality has +1 against Conspiracy and Popular Principality has +1 against Revolts so they have half the EP benefit. It's the Noble Prince that is worst off I think. His additional army card benefit could easily be overtaken by the luck of the cards during the game, whereas the other advantages are permanent.

Additional Questions:-
1. How many cards do you draw on the first turn of the game? You are dealt 3 Territory cards but these are not yet on the table. I assume that you therefore just draw the +4 cards giving you 10 cards to start: The Prince, 3 x Territory, 1 Citizen Army, 1 Mercenary Army and the 4 draw cards. (+1 if you're a Noble Principality)

2. Are Territory cards played face down initially and then all players turn them over simultaneously? Otherwise the first (correction to original post - I meant to say "last") player in the round has the advantage of seeing the border icons and territory types of other players. It looks like this would be a particular advantage when playing the first turn of the game.

All these questions and we haven't even played yet!

I think Alesia Games are going to need a PM FAQ on their website don't you?

Chris

Thread: Re: Conspiracies and other questions

msaari — 2007-05-03T06:25:30+00:00

There's an example on the web site, which helps a bit. Still, the Conspiracy thing is complicated. What does the "Those receiving the conspiracy can defend with +1 strength." mean?

Thread: Conspiracies and other questions

msaari — 2007-05-03T05:37:30+00:00

The rules are nice, except they are a bit muddy and don't have a single example to set things straight. That leaves some questions. I also think it's unfortunate that the cards are almost completely devoted to flavor text instead of explaining what they actually do. For example, it would be nice, if the Fortress card mentioned the +2 strength after Conspiracy...

So, how do the conspiracies work? You play Conspiracy with a Prince or a Councillor, attack with strength of 1 (or 2, if you're attacking a Noble territory). Defender can use armies to defend. If you win, Conspiracy is placed on the territory, which is then placed in the middle. Is that correct?

What happens when someone plays Punishment? Can anybody play Punishment to remove the Conspiracy and claim the territory, or only the earlier owner?

If a player has Ecclesiastic or Hereditary Principality, is he completely immune to Conspiracies (except in his Noble territories and when Machiavelli is used)? I suppose so, as there's no way to increase to power of a Conspiracy, as far as I can tell.

Is there a particular reason why Ecclesiastic Principalities are so much better than Hereditary or Popular Principalities? Seems a bit unfair: one player will have better benefits without any drawbacks.

Well, I'll hopefully get to play the game this weekend (if I get an answer to the Punishment question), maybe it'll make sense then. Right now I'm a bit curious - can this actually work? It seems like there are very few Councillors and Captains to actually get something done.

How long is a five-round game?

Thread: Re: Interesting Game – but is there enough game for the money?

Chris Dorrell — 2007-05-02T22:50:16+00:00

Borja,

OK I think I have the idea now. Thanks for the explanations.

The game concept, presentation and components sound good. Hopefully others will have gained something from this thread as well.

As I said in my opening post, the value of a game is not simply the components. I know that a major factor is the development cost and if you are only producing 1,000 sets then you're unit cost is bound to be higher.

In the end the proof will be in the playing but I'm happy to give it a go.

Thanks again
Chris

Thread: Re: Interesting Game – but is there enough game for the money?

Borja Lopez — 2007-05-02T22:11:54+00:00

Chris,

Sorry for my bad explanation.

I'm still not totally clear on this. Are you saying that after "Stage 4 Actions" players pick up all cards other than territories. If so how does this fit with your answer to Question 2 where you talk about moving and removing cards. If I've picked them all up in the preceding Stage 4, surely I can only be placing them in the next turn?

OR can you leave command and action cards on the table and thus effectively increase your cards by having less in hand for Stage 2 Drawing Cards.

In "Drawing Cards Stage" players must take all the cards on the territories (command and action cards), then, players can discard and take new cards.

In "Preparation Stage", players place their cards (cards that they want to use in the Action Stage) face-down over their territories.

You can't leave command or action cards over the territories to increase the cards in hand.

You didn't say anything about the way the rules are presented?
The rules are printed in a soft coated paper; also there is an especial card with the game credits and the number of the game (only 1000 copies have been printed).

Thanks,

Borja

Thread: Re: Interesting Game – but is there enough game for the money?

Chris Dorrell — 2007-05-02T20:26:14+00:00

Borja,

Thanks for the quick and comprehensive response. I think you've covered most of my questions OK.

You didn't say anything about the way the rules are presented? Also:-

Borja Lopez wrote:

Game play:
...........
2. In Stage 3 Preparation: Cards can be moved to any territory (own player’s territory) and also can be removed of play remaining in player’s hand.
3. After Stage 4 Actions: player must take the cards already played back into his hand. And in the Stage 1 Drawing cards, each player can discard and take cards (The maximum of cards allowed is equal to the number of territories possessed + 4. And the limit of cards in hand is 12)....
I'm still not totally clear on this. Are you saying that after "Stage 4 Actions" players pick up all cards other than territories. If so how does this fit with your answer to Question 2 where you talk about moving and removing cards. If I've picked them all up in the preceding Stage 4, surely I can only be placing them in the next turn?

OR can you leave command and action cards on the table and thus effectively increase your cards by having less in hand for Stage 2 Drawing Cards.

OR am I just being thick?

Borja Lopez wrote:

Leader syndrome:
With more territories the player can take more cards, but it’s not easy to defend all the territories. Too much territories means too much borders to defend. The player with a very offensive strategy can’t stabilise all his conquered territories and instable territories don’t have a crucial importance in the final count of Victory Points.
Good point.

Thanks
Chris

Thread: Re: Availability?

Borja Lopez — 2007-05-02T18:31:39+00:00

Hi, Peter

The game is published by Alesia Games and it's available in www.alesiagames.com, in Boardgamegeek Market Place and in Ebay.
And it's a limited edition of 1000 numbered copies.

Thread: Re: Interesting Game – but is there enough game for the money?

Borja Lopez — 2007-05-02T18:04:27+00:00

Hi, Chris

Quality of game components:
The cards were printed in offset printing system on a special paper used generally in cards games. This paper has a thin plastic slice to make the material flexible and opaque. And after the printing process the cards were vanished. The corners are not rounded because game icons are placed in corners and we finally decide that the rounded cut was an inconvenient for the cards graphic design and the game design. At any rate we think that our cards paper is sufficiently strong and flexible to resist the play wear and tear.

Game play:
1. Yes, at the start of the game, the Prince cards are randomly dealt. One per player.
2. In Stage 3 Preparation: Cards can be moved to any territory (own player’s territory) and also can be removed of play remaining in player’s hand.
3. After Stage 4 Actions: player must take the cards already played back into his hand. And in the Stage 1 Drawing cards, each player can discard and take cards (The maximum of cards allowed is equal to the number of territories possessed + 4. And the limit of cards in hand is 12).
4. Yes, you can turn over only the necessary armies to win the battle.
5. Yes, with a Prince and a Captain in the same territory you can attack two territories but not with the used armies (faced up armies).
6. The modifier in Prince Cards affect to all the player’s territories.
7. It’s not necessary to play turns counter-clockwise (it’s only a Spanish tradition).
8. The Prince Card must be counted with the other cards in the player’s hand.

Leader syndrome:
With more territories the player can take more cards, but it’s not easy to defend all the territories. Too much territories means too much borders to defend. The player with a very offensive strategy can’t stabilise all his conquered territories and instable territories don’t have a crucial importance in the final count of Victory Points.

Thank you for your interest!

Borja

ALESIA GAMES

Thread: Interesting Game – but is there enough game for the money?

Chris Dorrell — 2007-05-02T14:34:51+00:00

This game looks very interesting but I could do with some help before deciding to buy.

I’ve checked the Alesia web site and the game is available from the company by mail order for 35 Euros plus 10 Euros p&p. That makes it about £30 which is expensive for a card game so it needs to be good.

I have downloaded the rules and studied them to establish if there is enough game in there to justify the spend.

There are some intriguing possibilities with the linked territory cards, card combinations etc. and the game may have some tactical and strategic depth. There are a few questions I have about the game which if answered would help me with my decision. Hopefully Alesia Games will respond.

Components:- (this is obviously just the cards and rules)
1. Are the cards of good quality (linen finish?) with rounded corners?
2. Will the rule set be professionally printed in colour with examples of play etc.

Game Play:-
1. At the start of the game “Prince cards are randomly dealt”. Is this one card per player?
2. In Stage 3 - Preparation, how are cards manipulated? Can cards which are already placed on territories be moved about during this phase?
3. Can you take cards already played back into your hand and if so how does the hand limit work.
(Questions 2 & 3 are key to my understanding of the game mechanics as I can’t see how the Prince, Captain and Councillor cards work if they can’t be moved about.)
4. If you have multiple armies and a Prince (or Captain) face down on a territory, do you have to use all of the armies in an attack or can you just turn over the ones you feel are necessary.
5. If you have a Prince and a Captain in a territory with say two armies, could you attack two territories - one with each army?
6. The Prince Cards have special characteristics some of which are +1 modifiers. Do these relate to all territories of that player or just the territory the Prince is currently in?
7. Why are turns played counter-clockwise?
8. In Section 4.2 – 1) Drawing Cards, it says:
“Each player takes the same number of cards from the deck as number of territories possessed (territories on the table) + 4 (If the player has 3 territories, 3+4 =7 cards, including the Prince card)."
What does “including the Prince card” mean?

Finally a general concern. The card draw is based on the number of territories, more territories = more cards = more options and obviously more power. Will this trigger the runaway leader syndrome?

Any comments or answers welcome, particularly from the folks at Alesia Games.

Cheers
Chris

Thread: Availability?

Peter Pariseau — 2007-04-30T23:25:38+00:00

So when is this going to be available? Is a preorder required, or is the publication date already set? It looks very promising - I especially like the use of quotations from The Prince on the cards.

Image

Borja Lopez — 2007-04-25T21:14:39+00:00

Promotional poster

Image

Borja Lopez — 2007-04-25T03:33:55+00:00

Princeps Machiavelli. Cover.

Image

2007-04-24T22:56:38+00:00

Princeps Machiavelli. Close Shot.

Image

2007-04-24T22:54:28+00:00

Princeps Machiavelli. Close Shot.