Game: Power Grid Power Plant Deck 2

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unixrevolution — 2008-11-17T15:23:53+00:00

Step 3, and where has all the fuel gone?

Thread: Re: An improvement on a classic

QBert80 — 2008-10-31T01:10:33+00:00

bought_with_blood wrote:
As the 7 plant is really the best of the starting eight the person who buys last in a 4 player game gets the best plant. Very nice balance.

Actually I would call that the opposite of balance. Giving the best plant to the player who was randomly chosen to play last on the first turn adds turn order disadvantage to a game that never really had it. Since the 04 is the best starting plant in the original deck, all players had a chance to bid on it. If the wily start player bids the perfect amount so he is not outbid, so be it, the plants 07, 08, and 10 are pretty good too.

Thread: Re: An improvement on a classic

Barticus88 — 2008-10-30T23:00:13+00:00

bought_with_blood wrote:
There are however a couple of problems with the base game that are changed in the new deck.

In PG the starting plants are not equally good. The new deck balances this out.
I never saw that as a problem, and see no benefit in fixing it. In the original, the 17 is clearly inferior to the 11 and the 18. So? It's supposed to be a lumpy, bumpy plant market. Sometimes your favorite plant comes up and sometimes you have to decide whether any of the available plants have value. The bigger problem in the original is that the 06 has no value with the original market stocking. This is fixed with Italy, but only with Italy. The 06 is a turkey on all other maps. There should be some value in all the cards, if only rarely. Ideally, the nine starting plants should have value every game, but that's not practical. All the higher plants have a chance of coming up early in a game where their fuel is cheap.

Unfortunately, the and come out slowly with fewer than five players, so those plants are rarely good.

I like that a nuke plant (08) was included in the new starting plants, but with fewer than five players it's a bad plant (except in France).
bought_with_blood wrote:
My favourite change in the strating eight is making the 6 plant 1 garbage for two cities. Making this a viable choice in any game especially so in italy where garbage is much cheaper.
Actually the 06 was already a good one in Italy. The new 06 is the best starting plant with Italy.
bought_with_blood wrote:
Moving the step 2 start to eight cities,bought_with_blood wrote:
Moving the end game to 20 connections is game changing.
Here you are talking about the long game. If you like, you can add the "+" plants the old deck and play with the long game city counts. I know this was a fight between Jay and Friedemann when the game was published. Jay insisted on shortening the game, so we ended up with the original deck. The longer deck and higher city counts are the game Friedemann would have published if he hadn't needed to partner with Jay to finance it.

I think the added length does improve the game, especially with five or six players. The middle game is much richer. However, I think Jay was right that a shorter game was more marketable. It's nice we now have the choice.

Thread: An improvement on a classic

bought_with_blood — 2008-10-30T19:10:11+00:00

Introduction:

The new power plant Deck does some things to change the dynamics of a game that I enjoy very much already. I love power grid and find it to be an interesting game that often goes down to the wire. There are however a couple of problems with the base game that are changed in the new deck.

In PG the starting plants are not equally good. The new deck balances this out.
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My favourite change in the starting eight is making the 6 plant 1 garbage for two cities. Making this a viable choice in any game especially so in Italy where garbage is much cheaper. The more balanced plants also take the first auction away from a fight to be last and make it muck more strategic. As the 7 plant is really the best of the starting eight the person who buys last in a 4 player game gets the best plant. Very nice balance.

As we simply play the new deck using option 3, replacing the old deck with the new deck, that is what I will review.

The More Things Change...

The changes introduced by playing with the new deck are subtle and yet profound. Having more cities in play an moving the step 2 an game end points around changes more than just the tactics.

Moving the step 2 start to eight cities, keeps the jockeying for board position and tense early auctions around for one more turn. In step two the mid-game power plant stall is not so much a drag on game enjoyment as it is something that changes your focus from the auctions to the connections. In the second step you now have to focus on building the largest network.

In games with the second deck rather than hanging about in second or third near the lead it is best to be in first and farthest out in front. You pay more for resources and suffer in the auctions but # of connections is of key importance in the third step.

Moving the end game to 20 connections is game changing. Instead of simply acquiring plants that add up to 17 or 18 connections it is now important in the mid-game to acquire two plants that add up to at least 10 and preferably 11 or 12. This allows you to be in a position of strength as the game winds down. You can now choose to lunge for the finish if you have the most capacity and ability to reach 20 connections, or you can hang around waiting for a power plant to add to your base that will get you to 19 or 20. These tactical plays at the end of the game make all auctions critical be they early, mid, or end game auctions.

Every game we have played with the new deck has had an edge to it on the last two turns that is generally lacking from normal games of PG. Sure sometimes you can see some one running away with it but there are still critical auction and placement phases that can dramatically alter the game, especially if resources are tight.

The More they stay the same...

This is however still PG and if you originally found it mathy or did not like the dependence on auctions this deck will not change your mind. If you like the base game I think that this Deck will only serve to enhance your enjoyment of the game.

Thread: Re: How do you set up Variant 2?

DaveD — 2008-10-24T22:23:56+00:00

The rules say that depending on the number of players you remove a number of plants. With 4 players (for example), you not only discard the first plant with a number, but in the first 4 times that it happens you also discard the second plant of that number (this doesn't apply to plants 1-8). Only after this do you start putting the second plants into the market.

This does mean that when playing this variant, the players will know which plants have been discarded.

Thread: Re: How do you set up Variant 2?

dcorban — 2008-10-24T22:01:49+00:00

ColtsFan76 wrote:
Now you are going to know what is out of the game almost immediately and have a constant reminder of the discards sitting next to you. Maybe it won't affect game play that much, but it does seem a bit odd.

I'm going to go with "won't affect the game play". It is rare that you can delay buying a plant until a "better" plant not only hits the future market, but is available to buy. When you need a new plant, you need a new plant now. This game isn't won by getting a good deal, or getting a particularly effective plant. It's won by either knowing when the game will end, or controlling the game's end.

The "tedious" comment seems rather knee-jerk. First of all, there is only one person in control of dealing out the new power plant each turn, so the other 4-5 players don't even need to pay attention. Secondly, it should add maybe a few seconds to each round, unless the player in charge has the memory capacity of a fruit fly.

Thread: Re: 1st game with a not so grande finale

tickwang — 2008-08-04T03:41:26+00:00

Well, I am going to understand that Power Grid is all about that power plant market, and usually it is not so good.

Thread: Re: Reminder: Remove the cards over 50 in Variants 1 and 2

Grumpf — 2008-07-17T16:15:39+00:00

Jap, we made the same mistake as well last monday, resulting in a full round of halt where everyone basically just earned cash without beeing able to do anything useful. That, of course, caused the game to end immediately in the first round of phase 3, with everyone over 17 cities. I even had enough money to build the full 20 cities and still having lots of surplus cash. The player who went last in the auction round won, beeing the only one able to snatch a plant which could support support 7 or more cities.

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siuchak — 2008-06-24T19:08:41+00:00

New power plan in Green

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siuchak — 2008-06-24T18:58:24+00:00

New Step 3 Card in Green

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siuchak — 2008-06-24T18:57:52+00:00

New chart in Green

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siuchak — 2008-06-24T18:19:51+00:00

back of the card

Thread: Re: Question about Variant 2

gccw1800 — 2008-05-24T05:57:46+00:00

Hi Brian,thanks for your quick and detailed response. Now I got it.

PS. Although I have another team of microbadge, Jim Harbaugh is one of favorite players. The Captain Comeback did great job around 1995 and I still remeber that year's AFC Championship. They were so close.

Joe

Thread: Re: Question about Variant 2

ColtsFan76 — 2008-05-24T02:44:30+00:00

You have it backwards when playing.

The first time you draw a card, set it off to the side.

Then the second time you draw that number, place that card in the market.

Basically, turn 1 is rather lengthy as you will continue to keep drawing until you find your first duplicates. As the game goes on, setting up the market will take less and less time.

What you have quoted is the "set-up rules." In that, you still set aside the first card of any given number. But on top of that, you must discard X cards. So in a 4-player game, I think you remove 4 power plants. So the first 4 duplicates will be completely removed from the game as they are drawn. Once you hit the 5th duplicate, that second card of the pair is the one that goes into the market.

So setting up a 4-player game will go something like this:
* Take the 1-8 cards from Deck 2 and the 3-8 cards from the original deck.
* Shuffle them and flip a card at a time. The first time you see a number (except 1 and 2), set the card aside. The second time you see it, set it in the market.
* Shuffle the rest of the cards and flip a card at a time. The first time you see a number, set the card aside. The second time you see a card, also set it aside. Repeat this 3 more times for a total of 4 pairs discarded.
* Now start the game. Each time a Power Plant is purchased, you must draw a new one to replace it.
* Continue to flip a card and set it to the side if it is the first showing of that Power Plant number. As soon as you find a duplicate, that is the card that goes into the market. Stop and continue playing.
* Repeat the above step each time a Plant(s) is purchased.

Thread: Question about Variant 2

gccw1800 — 2008-05-24T01:54:52+00:00

I am not so sure about the variant 2, using both of decks.

from rule
http://www.riograndegames.com/uploads/Game/Game_226_gameRule...
"...
Depending on the number of players (as in the base game), remove a
certain number of power plants from the game. To do this, take the
second drawn power plant numbers (of course not the power plants for the
starting market) and place them in the separate area for unused power
plants. Do this until you have removed the required number of power
plants. During the first game turn this takes a little bit effort, but
later during the game it becomes easier."

My understanding is:
- if the number of a card is first one (there is no card with same
number revealed), keep the card.
- if the number of a card is second one (there is another card with same
number which already revealed), remove the card and put it aside.
- But, if the card winch already revealed is one of the cards for the
starting market, keep the second one as first one.

Please point it out if I took wrong.

Thread: Re: Please advise the best way to use the expansion

DSHStratRat2 — 2008-05-10T11:42:49+00:00

I've read, heard, and personally experienced the following:

The power plants found in the expansion deck are generally more efficient than those in the original deck. That means they power more cities for fewer resources.

What difference does this make? With the expansion deck, your games are more likely to reach Step 3, and Step 3 is likely to last a bit longer as well.

With the original deck, people reported a lot of games that ended before they even reached Step 3, or games that only had Step 3 last for a single round.

Although I did see more games with abbreviated Step 3's using the original deck, games that ended during Step 2 were pretty rare. That may say more about my group's playing style than anything else...

I love the game with either deck, and all the variations included in the expansion deck rules are lots of fun as well. Personally, I'd recommend starting with the original deck just so you'll get the full joy of falling in love with the game.

I also second the motion of using the Germany map more than the U.S. in your first game or two. The player who starts his "empire" on America's west coast tends to take an expensive beating that can really discourage a new player from playing in the states!

Finally, I recommend getting EVERY expansion board as your love for the game grows. All the maps have rule variations that add all sorts of variety to the game, and the differences in "map strategy" from one country to the next are fun to discover.

Thread: Re: Please advise the best way to use the expansion

Barticus88 — 2008-05-08T16:17:45+00:00

Use the original deck for the first several games.

Thread: Re: Please advise the best way to use the expansion

Seth_Logan — 2008-05-08T13:22:46+00:00

I disagree. The old deck is less forgiving and slower than the new deck. The old deck will see less money being made and at a slower pace. There is a specific phase in this game that's called 'stalling'. It is an important mechanism along with bidding. Both are less 'tense' in the new deck than the old. For a beginner I would recommend the new deck and then the old deck to see how tough it can really get!

Thread: Re: Please advise the best way to use the expansion

freduk — 2008-05-08T12:50:57+00:00

Agree with previous poster. The second card deck is not "better" it is just different, to freshen the game for those who have played for a while. Play with the original deck a few times, then play with the second deck instead a few times (remembering to take out the top-end plants, as recommended in the rules insert). By the time you've played a few games with each, you'll be in a better position yourself to judge how you want to mix them (if at all).
Also, for your very first game, I recommend sticking with the Germany board, as I believe it is more balanced for beginners than USA. and don't forget to use the right number of regions for the number of players!

Thread: Re: Please advise the best way to use the expansion

kowalskie — 2008-05-08T10:48:15+00:00

Imploded wrote:
Hi!

I have just bought Power Grid along with the PGPPD2.
We have never played Power Grid before. Please advise what should be the best way to use the expansion:

1. Play a few games with the basic deck and then add the expansion?
2. Start with the expansion from the very beginning?
3. Other ways?

Thanx!

hi,

my 2p worth:

i would certainly play with the basic deck a few times to get started. it is very 'balanced' and will give closer games...

once you have got a few games under your belt swap to the expansion pack for a change of pace...

after that you can combine the two for an epic game if you want even more power-grid-ing action...

malcolm

Thread: Please advise the best way to use the expansion

Imploded — 2008-05-08T10:32:54+00:00

Hi!

I have just bought Power Grid along with the PGPPD2.
We have never played Power Grid before. Please advise what should be the best way to use the expansion:

1. Play a few games with the basic deck and then add the expansion?
2. Start with the expansion from the very beginning?
3. Other ways?

Thanx!

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puppi — 2008-03-21T16:56:20+00:00

Thread: Re: How do you set up Variant 2?

kungfro — 2008-02-22T17:10:49+00:00

Variant 2 is far too tedious to yield a result that is not all that fun. The two decks aren't really compatible in terms of plant cost and plant efficiency.

Use my variant – it is much easier to set up, and uses the low and the high plants without infringing on gameplay:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/250490

Thread: Re: How do you set up Variant 2?

ColtsFan76 — 2008-02-16T16:48:27+00:00

Werbaer wrote:
The first X duplicates drawn are not used, but placed in the "unused plants" area.

This does seem the most obvious with the way the rules are written (and now that I got some sleep).

But it does seem to take a little bit of the surprise out of knowing what is or isn't available. In the base game, you weren't really sure what wasn't in the deck until you made it to the Step 3 card (and by that time, I usually forgot what was coming back out again).

Now you are going to know what is out of the game almost immediately and have a constant reminder of the discards sitting next to you. Maybe it won't affect game play that much, but it does seem a bit odd.

Thread: Re: How do you set up Variant 2?

Werbaer — 2008-02-16T09:29:11+00:00

ColtsFan76 wrote:
So obviously, the first few turns (especially the first) you will probably burn a lot of cards until you start hitting duplicates. Once you hit the duplicates, you can play the game finally.

Now, this is where I get confused. Depending on the number of players, you have to pull out X amount of cards. OK. When and how do you do this? Do you do this before the game starts?
The first X duplicates drawn are not used, but placed in the "unused plants" area.

Thread: Re: How do you set up Variant 2?

Morganza — 2008-02-16T09:05:34+00:00

I've never really thought about this, but I'd say you secretly pull out some random cards from the mixed deck, so for those numbers, you'll never hit the second plant that stays in.

Of course, there's a chance that you pull out 2 of the same, so you might be playing with one more available power plant. (Just to screw up the people counting cards until you get to Step 3. :-) )

Thread: How do you set up Variant 2?

ColtsFan76 — 2008-02-16T08:38:28+00:00

Perhaps it is just too late, but I am not following how the deck gets set up in Variant 2. I follow this much:

Mix all the 1-8 cards. Turn them over and remove from the game the first instance of each number (except 1 and 2) and keep the 2nd instance of each number to form your markets.

Remove the old 17 and 18 (since they aren't duplicated in the new deck) and shuffle everything together. Now I start ot get a little fuzzy but still think I grasp it so far. You keep the super huge deck together and start the game. The first time you pull a number, you set it aside and then draw again. A Power Plant will only be kept in the game if it has a matching card out of the game.

So obviously, the first few turns (especially the first) you will probably burn a lot of cards until you start hitting duplicates. Once you hit the duplicates, you can play the game finally.

Now, this is where I get confused. Depending on the number of players, you have to pull out X amount of cards. OK. When and how do you do this? Do you do this before the game starts? So that way you already have a "base" number of plants pulled so when you hit the second number they stay? But that doesn't really reduce the number of plants available. So do they get discarded during the game? Or am I completely not understanding how the deck is set up on this one?

Thread: Four involved in tie-breakers as we break in the new deck!

Eric Brosius — 2008-01-28T02:27:34+00:00

POWER GRID [new deck]
(Eric, Anton, Rich, Todd, Dan)

Dan arrived as Race for the Galaxy was finishing up, and with Todd also on hand, we had 5 for the next game. We all agreed to play Power Grid using the new expansion deck, which has been calling to us from the game locker for a few weeks now. If you've played Power Grid frequently, you may know the plants almost by heart (you may even have them memorized entirely.) The new deck puts a shot of uncertainty back into the game, especially if (like us) you haven't played with it yet. Todd explained that he had played the game before, though not nearly as often as we've played it at MVGA, and he was happy to join us. We figured with a new deck we could use the familiar USA board, and we eliminated the South Central region.

Anton led us off by putting the #03 coal plant up for auction. Like the #03 in the original deck, this plant powers one city, but it's more efficient, taking only a single coal to operate. After an opposing bid, Anton bought the plant for $5. Eric then put the #01 coal plant (1 city for THREE coal) up, and he got it for list price. It's hard to run this plant for long, but he figured it only had to run for a single round to do its job, given the low cost. Now Dan put the #04 hybrid up (Dan is a hybrid lover,) but Todd bid $5 and Dan was unwilling to pay more. Dan settled instead for the #06 trash plant, which powers TWO (not one) city for a trash. This left the #07 oil plant for Rich. The plants in the expansion deck are, in general, more efficient than those in the original deck, though there are exceptions.

Eric surveyed the board and built in Chicago, hoping to seize the choke point. Anton surprised us by building in Cheyenne, hoping to get the West for himself. Todd yielded to temptation, building Raleigh in the east. Dan then took NYC and Philadelphia, and Rich squeezed in by building Savannah and Jacksonville. Moans were heard already, and it was only Round 1!

In Round 2, Eric started by auctioning the #14 coal plant, which powers 4 cities for three coal. Bidding was spirited, and Dan wound up paying $20 for it. Eric moved to the #24 nuclear plant, which also powers 4 cities, and this one went to Anton for $25. It was a lot to pay so early in the game, but Anton would have little competition for fuel for some time. Now Eric put up the #16 windmill, and Todd took this for $17. This brought up the #23 coal plant, which powers four cities for two coal, and Rich paid $25 for it. Eric was hoping for a big plant to fall, but had to settle for the #20 oil plant, an efficient number that powers 3 cities for one oil. This round Eric added Cincinnati, Todd took Norfolk and Atlanta, and Dan moved down the coast to DC. Anton and Rich didn't build, moving toward the dim bulb end of the turn order.

By Round 3, the plants on offer were already lousy, and we all passed, so that the #05 was removed from the game. Building was energetic, with Anton taking Denver and Omaha (beginning the squeeze,) Eric Detroit and Pittsburgh, Rich St. Louis and Knoxville and Dan Boston and Buffalo. Todd passed, as there were no more attractive cities for him to connect (the cost of his two builds in the previous round.) In Round 4, the #29 hybrid was on offer, but whereas the #29 is efficient in the original deck, this version takes three fuel to power five cities. Eric's capacity was starting to restrict him, so he laid out list price for it. Todd didn't see anything he really wanted, but the #12 oil plant was attractive enough as a temporary expedient. Todd jumped to Minneapolis and Fargo and Anton took Duluth and Billings. Eric swallowed and jumped south to Tampa, and Rich in turn jumped over him to take Miami. We had now used up all the building sites in the east, and Anton held the key to the west.

Eric had all the capacity he wanted, even though he was burning a lot of fuel, so he passed when it was his turn to put a plant up for auction. Anton did want a plant, and he proposed the #22 oil plant, the twin of Rich's #23. He wasn't the only player who wanted the #22, but Anton paid $28 to take it home. Now Rich put the #31 nuclear plant up, and there was no competitive bidding, as Dan and Todd had decided there was no plant they needed. No one wanted to pay the price to jump over Anton, so Anton built the only city, Seattle, giving him a total of six cities while the rest of us had five each.

This brought us to Round 6, with another sorry set of plants, and we all took the opportunity to pass, resulting in the discard of the #08. Anton chose this turn to make his move, building Portland and Boise to reach 8 cities while the rest of us were stuck at 5. There's often a cost to being the brightest bulb for several turns in a row, but Anton's #24 nuclear plant was insulating him from most of the adverse effects, and he was bringing in more cash than the rest of us.

Round 7 presented a dilemma. There were new spots available for building, but the plants were also attractive. Anton put the #21 trash plant up for bid, and we let him have it, hoping for better options. Rich then paid $27 for the #25 oil plant, a resource hog. It wasn't an unattractive option, as oil prices stayed reasonable all game. Now the bidding escalated. Eric paid $44 for the efficient #35 coal plant and Dan paid $48 for the #36 hybrid, the first plant bought that would power more than five cities. The replacement was the #40 oil plant, which powers six cities for just one oil, and Todd scooped it up joyfully.

It was a building bonanza this time. Dan connected seven cities (Norfolk, Raleigh, Savannah, Jacksonville, Pittsburgh, Detroit and Cincinnati.) We were all hoping for some room as Stage 2 started, but Dan had swallowed most of it up! Now Todd went into action, taking DC, Philadelphia, NYC, Boston and Buffalo. Eric built Knoxville, Atlanta, Minneapolis and Fargo, and Rich took what was left---Tampa, Chicago, Omaha and Duluth. Anton built just one city, Salt Lake City, to move to the back of the turn order despite his large cash hoard.

It was only Round 8, but it was clearly going to be the last round. Dan bought the #32 windmill, but we all needed a bigger plant, and none was available. It was a simple matter of building for Anton, who took Santa Fe, Phoenix, Las Vegas, Los Angeles and San Diego. He had capacity for only 13 cities, but he built to 15 to end the game while he had the advantage. The rest of us could only reach 13 as well, so it was a matter of the cash tie-breaker.

Final scores:

Anton: 13 cities + $11
Dan: 13 cities + $5
Rich: 13 cities + $1
Eric: 13 cities + $1
Todd: 10 cities

Eric's rating: 9. I enjoy Power Grid a great deal, and the new deck is just enough of a variation that we'll have to think about new strategies.

Thread: Re: Too efficient

Pyjam — 2008-01-26T23:05:03+00:00

With this deck, the pace is different. It begins quickly because the first plants are cheaper. Then the game stalls. Because the 5 and 6 cities plants cost more, it's difficult to have 2 of them before step 3. So, players need to upgrade their intermediate plants (3 and 4 cities) to reduce the cost of raw materials. IMHO this is a nice change for the game.

Pyjam

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lestat2099 — 2008-01-14T05:42:01+00:00

18 cities game, 2+ hours, purple surrounding unused cities

Thread: Reminder: Remove the cards over 50 in Variants 1 and 2

toonces — 2008-01-07T18:15:00+00:00

We just played this for the first time yesterday. Unfortunately, I must have skipped over the one point where it mentions that you don't use the 52 or higher cards in variants 1 or 2. We played with the whole deck, and the game game to a halt because for 2 rounds, noone could build 17 cities, and we were stuck in step 2 waiting for the step 3 card to come out. Finally, the step 3 card came out, but the game ended in that building round with the players only able to power 14, 14, 12, and 12 cities.

The confusion is if you flip to the rules for setting up the Variant 1 (or variant 2) deck, that section doesn't mention taking out those 4 cards first.

Thread: Re: Too efficient

DrakeStorm — 2008-01-07T05:26:50+00:00

dcorban wrote:
I also noticed how extremely cheap resources became. I prefer to have more resources used, so there is incentive to buy types of plants other people are not using. I also like having the threat of a total resource buyout, which never even came close to happening with the new deck.

After a few games, I agree that the deck is a bit too efficient. I don't necessarily think it makes the game worse, just different.

I think it all starts with the #6 plant! In the original game its a horrible plant and thus sits around for a few turns clogging up the power plant deck till someone gets to 6 cities and it gets destroyed.

In the new deck, its actually one of the better plants and gets bought up quickly which in turn allows for more plants to cycle through and you get to even better plants quickly. On top of that its a trash plant so now someone is buying 1 trash a turn rather than say 2-3 oil or coal. Over the course of the first few turns that means oil and coal is cheaper for everyone else, which in turn means people can buy more cities and thus end the game quicker. In addition, by the end of the game there isn't really the threat of a total resource buyout in coal because early on not as much coal gets bought and its decent refresh rate keep it in stock till the end.

Having an extra early wind power plant in the game also helps cause this problem, but to a lesser extent I think.

Thread: Re: Too efficient

Aeek — 2008-01-01T09:28:03+00:00

Depends how you play. There are plenty of efficient 4s but you often need those triple 5s. No good being efficient if you don't have the power to win. Having to buy an extra plant or fight for that last 7,8 can blow all your fuel savings.

Thread: Re: Rio Grande base game with 2F Spiele expansion?

jtj608 — 2007-12-30T23:45:51+00:00

Excalabur wrote:

Well, yeah. It also saves Rio Grande having to deal with printers.

Heh, ask Jay at a convention sometime how little he has to deal with printers .

The only game company that does its own printing in our part of the hobby is Ravensburger. They have printing facilities in Germany and the Czech Republic. Almost all the rest of These Games Of Ours are printed at Ludopackt or Scheer. Everybody from mighty Kosmos and Amigo down to tiny Histogame and 2F-Spiele have to deal with one or the other. Ludopackt is about midway between Ulm and Augsburg, Scheer is WNW of Würzburg. They are like tech-solutions providers for game publishers. They figure out what the customer wants, make some of the stuff on their own (usually wood, paper and cardboard), outsource some of the other stuff (playing cards from Belgium (Carta Mundi), plastic pieces from China) and wrap it up in a nice shiny bow for the customer.

Excalabur wrote:

I'm not sure why Mayfair doesn't do this, to be honest. They seem to fiddle with the art on all their Euros for no apparent reason: not wanting to license the art?

My conjecture is this. At first, I believe they did it themselves because they didn't know any better, or they thought the original look of the first batch of German games they published would be offputting. After the debacle that was their version of Tigris & Euphrates, and after Rio Grande made the the boardgame world safe for the look of German games, they at least stopped redesigning all the art. I don't know if they piggyback; when I brought it up on one occasion, Larry Roznai denied that they do so. That was years ago, though, and things may have changed.

Thread: Re: The necessity of the new deck

Barticus88 — 2007-12-29T07:02:47+00:00

Sagrilarus wrote:
It may have been to make money.
Yes, the number one reason for expansions to successful games is to make money. If RGG wants to get another $12 from me every year, I will gladly pay.

Thread: Re: Comparison of the Original with the New Power Plant Card

RicochetRita — 2007-12-25T14:53:32+00:00

Not to steal Richard's thunder, but without having read this, I'd put together an Excel comparison of the two Plant Decks. It graphically shows some of his points, above.

The spreadsheet is uploaded in the file section of the main Power Grid entry.

R³

Thread: Re: Too efficient

Barkam — 2007-12-20T06:40:40+00:00

I think the new deck is really just designed for playing the "long" version.

Thread: Re: Too efficient

dcorban — 2007-12-20T06:28:53+00:00

I also noticed how extremely cheap resources became. I prefer to have more resources used, so there is incentive to buy types of plants other people are not using. I also like having the threat of a total resource buyout, which never even came close to happening with the new deck.

Thread: Re: Too efficient

Morganza — 2007-12-19T23:56:49+00:00

I've played once with the new deck only (US), and twice with the hybrid deck (Italy the toe of the boot, and France the Donut. Yes, I play PG with some weird folks -- this was not our first play of France the Donut.)

I think the mixed deck is more fun, certainly, but I didn't see the new deck as intrinsically broken as a standalone. (I don't remember if we hit stage 3 on the last turn or the next-to-last turn, but that's common in our games anyway.)

Thread: Re: Too efficient

brahman71 — 2007-12-19T23:49:05+00:00

I played the new deck for the first time last night and had the same reaction.

There were always good choices in the auction so prices stayed low. Because everything was so efficient, we used less resources and diversified more than usual. This made the resources dirt cheap the whole game. Cheap efficient plants and cheap resources meant we were always swimming in money . All the tension was sucked right out of the game.

We certainly won't play with just the new deck again.

Image

yid0 — 2007-12-19T18:58:16+00:00

Game with the double deck of power plants

Thread: Re: Too efficient

JeVo — 2007-12-16T19:48:18+00:00

I think you may be right. haven't have enough games under my pillow, but I can follow your thoughts.

Thread: Re: Comparison of the Original with the New Power Plant Card

Demo_Boy — 2007-12-16T18:04:42+00:00

Faster game - check
More plant viability - check
Ability to extend game by means of plants 50 - 60 to return it to the original play length - check

Sounds like an outstanding expansion - now if I could just find it here in Toronto.

Thread: Too efficient

dcorban — 2007-12-16T13:53:10+00:00

From my limited plays (4 times) with the new deck, I feel the plants are too efficient. There isn't any tension in the first auction as in the normal deck. The ramp up is too fast. I have yet to hit step 3 with the new deck, since it plays so fast and efficiently.

Overall, it just feels too easy. There are far, far more viable plants than the normal deck. There isn't that "if I buy this slightly suboptimal plant, it will/may cause a great plant to become available for everyone else" feeling, since the power ramp is extremely fast and there is always something worth buying.

We haven't tried mixing the two decks yet, but I think this may be the way to bring back the uncertainty present in the normal deck.

Image

khesser — 2007-12-15T20:44:36+00:00

PG - New Deck Card Comparison (All Cards)

Thread: Re: 3 players in France with new plants

Excalabur — 2007-12-09T06:54:12+00:00

Note that the power plants above no. 50 should be omitted from the game when playing with "Variant one".

Thread: 3 players in France with new plants

Damanthia — 2007-12-08T23:19:48+00:00

I recently completed my Power Grid collection and now own all the official expansions for the game. Last evening two of my friends, Chad and Don, and myself decided to try out France along with the new Power Grid Power Plant Deck 2.

We chose to play on the western side of the map (the purple, blue and red sections of the board) and with only the new power plants (variant one.) Don grabbed power plant 4 (oil/coal for one city), I took power plant 5 (3 oil/coal for two cities) and Chad took power plant 3 (one coal for one city.) I started off in Paris, Chad chose Caen and Le Havre, and Don took Nantes and Angers.

I got off to an early lead due to my cheap connection costs and the ability to power two cities the first turn. Unfortunately I soon got trapped into the northeast corner since both Don and Chad expanded to block me in. Don grabbed the south of France and Chad grabbed the western edge.

Since we were playing France we quickly bought more nuclear power plants than usual due to the cheap costs of nuclear fuel. Since this was the first time any of us had played with the new power plants, the breakdowns were new to all of us, and it was exciting seeing the new plants come up. Due to the random removal of power plants at the beginning of the game we had a very low number of wind power plants, and we mainly focused on oil and coal with some nuclear tossed in for good measure.

Things sped up dramatically once we hit stage two, and I quickly grabbed most of central France, while Chad and Don spread into the northeast. Things slowed a bit as we waited for Phase three to hit, and most of the biggest power plants had ended up getting cycled through, so we had a few turns where nobody bought any of the middle range power plants.

Once we hit Phase three, it was obvious the game would be ending soon. With the addition of power plants that can power up to nine cities, it became a quick race to grab as many cities as possible to make use of the new capacity.

Chad and I ended the game with a capacity of 19 and Don could handle up to 17. Don had bought cities first on the last round, and bought up to 18. On my turn I bought up to 18 cities as well. Chad was able to buy his 19th city and secure the win.

Final score:
Don 17 cities powered
Katy 18 cities powered
Chad 19 cities powered

We all enjoyed playing with the new map and power plants, and the new power plant variants add quite a bit of variety which is very welcome. The Power Plant deck is a very welcome addition to my ever expanding Power Grid collection.

Thread: Re: First try with PG Deck 2

wmshub — 2007-12-08T06:36:16+00:00

I just got this the other day, and the "play a longer game with both decks" variant looks really appealing to me.

Often in PG I feel that the end comes too fast, you can sometimes make it all the way there with only 5 plant purchases (three original plants, then two replacements). A tiny bit longer would be nice!

Thread: Re: First try with PG Deck 2

Werbaer — 2007-12-08T02:14:31+00:00

i haven't played with the new plant deck myself, but from looking at the numbers, it seems to me that it might be a bit slower during midgame (plants 20-30 a bit worse).
Now you played the game with the fastest possible setup - a 6 player game, which goes quite fast through the deck anyhow. And in BeNeLux, where you speed through the deck.
I assume it will make more of a difference if you play with 4 players on any other map.

Thread: First try with PG Deck 2

gberry — 2007-12-08T00:35:36+00:00

Players: Ray, Charles, Patrick, John , Jim and me.

We had six players and no game to play. We looked around and saw that someone else in the store had their copy of Power Grid so we decided it would work for all of us. Upon popping the game open we noticed that Power Grid Deck 2 was sitting there just asking us to try it, and so after a short debate we chose to play with PG deck 2 and the Benelux board.

The basic rules for the expansion deck seemed pretty simple. Just use plants 1-8 as the starting plants and put 11 on the top and phase 3 on the bottom.

The game progressed through all phases just like any other game of powergrid would. That was the problem. We all thought Power Grid Deck 2 would offer us new things to think about or change the game flow, and it simply was the same as if we played using the standard deck. Perhaps some of the other variants using Deck 2 might change things around but just swapping deck one for deck 2 certainly didn't.

The game turned when I got the 35 plant fairly early on and then a bunch of the low number plants came up preventing the others from efficiently producing power. In the end I won, followed by Charles, Ray, Jim, Patrick and John.

I would try again with Deck 2 as it didn't seem to hurt anything with the hope that maybe one of the variants using it would justify my itch to buy the deck.

Thread: Re: Rio Grande base game with 2F Spiele expansion?

Excalabur — 2007-12-07T20:09:41+00:00

Karlsen wrote:
Excalabur wrote:
Hm. I suppose. However, in general the Rio Grande (English) version is functionally and artistically identical to the other versions it is based on/co-produced with, and is not printed by Rio Grande.

That's called a smart business model.

Let's say for argument you want 5000 copies in German and 5000 copies in English. It is cheaper to print 10,000 copies of the language neutral components of the game (which you will generally find is the majority of the actual game) at once and then do two print runs of the cover sheet for the box and the rules than it is to do two entirely different print runs.

Some companies refine this further with multilingual rules and box covers, so just a single print run is required.

Well, yeah. It also saves Rio Grande having to deal with printers.

I'm not sure why Mayfair doesn't do this, to be honest. They seem to fiddle with the art on all their Euros for no apparent reason: not wanting to license the art?

I find the Queen-style language independent components really annoying: say in Alhambra, where the buildings went from having names to just colours; another good example of done-badly language independence is Bang!. Making language-independent components is non-trivial to do well, over and above making the compoenents work in some language.

Thread: Re: The necessity of the new deck

EulerPi — 2007-12-07T13:01:07+00:00

One of the biggest fixes I think is the generally much reduced cost of free energy. That and a nuclear power plant in the starting 8. Not that Power Grid needed to be fixed, but too many games have happened where Nuclear power was nearly a non-factor because the right ones never came up.

Thread: Re: The necessity of the new deck

Yargo — 2007-12-06T01:14:50+00:00

If you don't like the expansion, no need to buy it. Its not one of those games where its required to get a whole bunch of expansions to get your full value out of the game.

I like the idea of the expansion personally, its also a pretty inexpensive expansion. Adding 8 and 9 power plants? I always thought the nuke plants were a little week, they've been boosted too. And that 8 free energy plant, omg that will go for tons of money in the auction.

Thread: Re: A pretty good combination power plant deck

zefquaavius — 2007-12-04T14:07:06+00:00

Interesting research! I look forward to having the new plant deck and trying your suggestions (as well as others, of course, because I'm a curious sort).

Thread: Re: Rio Grande base game with 2F Spiele expansion?

Karlsen — 2007-12-04T08:14:01+00:00

Excalabur wrote:
Hm. I suppose. However, in general the Rio Grande (English) version is functionally and artistically identical to the other versions it is based on/co-produced with, and is not printed by Rio Grande.

That's called a smart business model.

Let's say for argument you want 5000 copies in German and 5000 copies in English. It is cheaper to print 10,000 copies of the language neutral components of the game (which you will generally find is the majority of the actual game) at once and then do two print runs of the cover sheet for the box and the rules than it is to do two entirely different print runs.

Some companies refine this further with multilingual rules and box covers, so just a single print run is required.

Thread: Re: Rio Grande base game with 2F Spiele expansion?

Excalabur — 2007-12-04T07:55:42+00:00

jtj608 wrote:
Rio Grande doesn't make games:

Ummm, they do. Race for the Galaxy, among others.

More on topic, Power Grid would not have been developed if Jay had not convinced Friedemann Friese to make Funkenschlag playable in about 2 hours. Rio Grande's co-publishing ventures with smaller companies such as 2F are just that, co-publishing ventures.

Hm. I suppose. However, in general the Rio Grande (English) version is functionally and artistically identical to the other versions it is based on/co-produced with, and is not printed by Rio Grande.

Thread: A pretty good combination power plant deck

kungfro — 2007-12-03T19:22:32+00:00

I got all my PG paraphernalia in the mail at the same time, so I was never used to using one plant deck over the other.

When I examined the cards, I noticed a couple of interesting things. Both decks had about the same balance of types of plants. By and large, the expansion deck seemed to be more cost-efficient. Other threads here suggest that this supports the "longer play" variant included in the new deck's rules.

What I really wanted to do was take and use every plant from both decks, but things would get confusing when dealing with multiple plants of the same number. I also wanted to minimize the tedium of removing plants from the deck before and during play as much as possible. I also wanted to use the really low and really high plants from the new deck without having to use the "longer play" variant.

After hours of mulling around with numbers, I determined that on the basis of cost-efficiency, the two decks aren't really compatible to a point where you can make a custom mix that satisfies these conditions:

• No more than one of each numbered plant
• The correct amount of each plant type (within one)
• Any given type of plant gets better as its number increases

In this light, I've decided to use only the new deck, because the new deck has the super-low and super-high plants. But since the super-high plants might upset the balance because they can power so many cities, I've made these changes to keep the game at a normal length:

Use the entire new plant deck (46 plants). But in addition to normal setup and game rules, and "step 2 and game end" rules, consider these changes:

2 players—Players may only have 3 plants. Remove 12 random plants. Step 2 occurs at 9 cities.
3 players—Remove Plant 60, and remove 11 random plants. Game End occurs at 19 cities.
4 players—Remove Plants 60 and 57. Remove 6 random plants. Game End at 18 cities.
5 players—Remove Plants 60, 57, and 54. Remove 1 random plant. Game End at 16 cities.
6 players—Remove Plants 60, 57, 52, and 52. Everything else as normal.

In the 3–5 player versions, some super plants may be available, so the Endgame condition has been increased.
In the 2-player version, players will very likely obtain one, and maybe a second, super plant. Thus, to keep powering tame, the plant maximum drops to 3—but to then compensate for a slower early-midgame development, Step 2 occurs slightly earlier.

I personally use the old 17 and 18 plants to close the gap in the new deck. As a result, I remove 2 extra random plants before the game.

Edit: no I do not do this anymore. There was a non-eco plant that was more expensive than an eco plant and they could both power the same number of cities. Outrage!

Thread: Re: Comparison of the Original with the New Power Plant Cards

Hobbespm — 2007-12-03T00:25:33+00:00

I can see a lot of potential with the extra deck.

You could sort them in three piles, then randomly take the appropriate number out of each "deck" and play a game. You'd have NO idea what plants would be coming up at all!

Image

Nobi — 2007-12-02T13:28:32+00:00

signed by Friedemann Friese at Essen 2007

Thread: Re: Comparison of the Original with the New Power Plant Card

Barkam — 2007-12-01T19:37:45+00:00

tromed2 wrote:
I like that there is more money in the game for making more connections sooner and faster. This makes for a quicker game, which I certainly look forward to.

Is quicker really better?

My biggest concern is, there appear to be more cards, which I would think would cause Phase 3 to start later. Most of the games I've played, including nearly all 4- or fewer-player games, have not gotten to Phase 3 as it is.

What has been the experience so far about Phase 3?

I think your experience has been the exception than the rule. I have played the game 15+ times and I have only experienced 2 games where the game ended before Phase 3.