Game: Athens & Sparta

Thread: Re: The rules are terrible!

Boss Happy — 2008-07-03T04:26:00+00:00

BROG wrote:

The Curse of the Internet. Giving Voice to Fools . . .

Well said, now let me give you my opinion on something I know nothing about...

:p

Thread: Re: The rules are terrible!

ratbulogg — 2008-07-01T10:19:25+00:00

Hi let me enter thefray hee.
I am Stu Hendrickson, a LONG time block gamer. I have played block games since 1978.
Yes, there is no question that there are a LOT of weird situations involving certain hexes that render the rules 'incomplete'. Anyone who denies this should have their posting license revoked.
Also (I know this for myself and have heard it from a guy who is listed in the rules as a contributor to A&S), you have to be delicate in dealing with Columbia. They do not take well to criticism of their games, in ANY stage of development. As far as I can tell they want sycophants for playtesters. Part of AS's problem is -and this is rumor but it totally makes sense- Craig Besinque, a longtime Columbia designer, made a game. Near the last minute, he got into a fight with the higherups at columbia. They took his notes, and had someone else finish the game, while Craig went to GMT to get his design published. Columbia knew it was in a race with GMT. That may explain the bad rules. But bad rules go back to Gettysburg, and before that. I co-wrote a scathing article in CanadianWargamesJournal in 1994 taking them to task (and as far as I can tell, they have blackballed me ever since for that).
Play balance is not a new issue with columbia either. (Liberty, for one). At the WBC in which it was debuted, they actually admitted that they were tweaking the victory conditions up to the very day they sent it out for final printing. But this is one thing that you can actually solve easily- just introduce a bidding system.
anyway, so as not to make this an anti-columbia rant, let me obvserve that they were extremely generous at Prezcon in the prize giveaways. EXTREMELY generous. Anyone who wants to hear some funny stories is free to contact me offline.
Stu

Thread: Re: The rules are terrible!

stephen newberg — 2008-06-30T05:28:12+00:00

Ignoring Richard's standard bit about only those ordained (mainly by Richard, I guess) being allowed a viewpoint of any value, I think the initial post has a lot to it, and the back and forth afterward contributed useful opinion as well.

We played the game a total of 14 times for a review I promised to do. It was pretty clear right away that there were serious rules problems, and though the V1.01 rules helped a bit, many of the difficulties remain. Additionally, the balance problem is very serious. And, if you care about questions of historical reflection in the path of the game, there are troubles there also. Generally, the game needs a good deal more work and a second rules set needs testing by those not part of some inside group so as to point out problems that the insiders never see.

I do think the game has lots of potential, though. On the Columbia support site in their Forum folder for the title, there have been many threads suggesting fixes for all manner of problems with the game, though thus far nothing official past the V1.01 rules has appeared. Hopefully the powers that be at Columbia will get around to a Version 2.0 set of rules to deal with all this, eventually.

pax, smn

Thread: Re: The rules are terrible!

Liumas — 2008-06-30T05:15:26+00:00

BROG wrote:
I would also ask you (as in "one") how you know exactly how much playtesting was done, ands by how many, and for how long? Facts, not guesses . . . And listing playtesters is rarely indicative of this. (I am gessing" you don't know . . .and that your lack of playtest statement is based on your Dislike of the game's rules as opposed to any specific knowledge.

As V.S. Naipul said (I thinkitwas him), and I paraohrasae, "Opinion is owrhtless unless backed by knowledge and expertise.")

RHB

"Look how the minnows dart hither and thither at will. Such is the pleasure fish enjoy."

"You are not a fish," responded Hui Tzu. "How do you know what gives pleasure to a fish?"

"You are not I," said Chuang Tzu. "How do you know I do not know what gives pleasure to a fish?"

Chuang Tzu To Hui Tzu