Game: Middle Kingdom

Thread: Re: Using the Celestial Dragon to claim cards and not take a goal card works well

Norbert Chan — 2008-11-28T06:01:47+00:00

UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
Go back and get ITYOTD, because it's great too.

Yeah, I have played ITYOTD, that's why I wanted my own copy.
It is indeed a great game. I'm surprised it hasn't gotten more exposure.

Thread: Re: Using the Celestial Dragon to claim cards and not take a goal card works well

UnknownParkerBrother — 2008-11-28T05:04:38+00:00

Go back and get ITYOTD, because it's great too.

Thread: Re: Using the Celestial Dragon to claim cards and not take a goal card works well

Norbert Chan — 2008-11-26T03:21:15+00:00

qwertymartin wrote:
This sounds very much like my first (and only) game. We also had the group-think tie on 6 in the first round. And the player who managed to stay behind and hold the Celestial Dragon won easily. It'll be interesting to figure out how to beat that strategy.

Our first game we were fumbling around. I was trying the early farmer strategy at the expense of all the other suits. Eventually, Don took the farmer majority away from me, and Don also had the Heir, which helped him take unclamied cards.

Jean had the warlord lead, and got the 5 VPs for the Heir at the end of the game. He also had many high scoring nobles.

Don tied with me with most farmers, but he was missing a suit, but he still tied for the win. Our first game scores were:

Jean 36 [14 dynasty cards]
Don 36 (-3 for missing a suit, 20 from farmers) [14 dynasty cards]
Norbert 31 (20 farmers)
Gary 22 (-3 for missing a suit, 5 from farmers)

Thread: Re: Middle Kingdom Review (New Tom Lehmann Game!)

Bubslug — 2008-11-26T02:10:16+00:00

Thanks for the objective review. I was looking for a quick "filler" game for our group and so far everyone's eyes have glazed over every time I try to introduce them to RftG (not going to stop me from trying tho). This game from the same designer attracted me because it accomodates five players out of the box (which RftG should have done), and a promise of a faster learning curve and shorter playing times.

I totally agree with your comments regarding components. I know I'm going to be sleeving my cards and bagging the tokens, so say goodbye to what at first looked like a nice plastic insert. A real head-shaker, but as you say, the price point makes you more inclined to be forgiving. I'm looking forward to getting it on the table to see if Tom has another hit...

Thread: Re: Using the Celestial Dragon to claim cards and not take a goal card works well

qwertymartin — 2008-11-25T15:22:51+00:00

This sounds very much like my first (and only) game. We also had the group-think tie on 6 in the first round. And the player who managed to stay behind and hold the Celestial Dragon won easily. It'll be interesting to figure out how to beat that strategy.

Thread: Using the Celestial Dragon to claim cards and not take a goal card works well

Norbert Chan — 2008-11-24T05:03:47+00:00

Jean had given me his $10 gift certificate to Myth Games, at 34 th Ave and 34 th St. I was going to buy In The Year of the Dragon with it. I had the game already in my hand up to the cash register, then I saw this card game by Tom Lehmann called Middle Kingdom. Coincidentally, it was another Chinese themed game, it was designed by Tom Lehmann who did Race For the Galaxy, which I like, so I decided to buy it instead of ITYOTD for $21.

[BGCOLOR=#0066FF]Quick Synopsis[/BGCOLOR]: In this 2-5 player card game, each player gets thier own bid deck of cards, consisting of value 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7. The draw deck consist of 62 Dynasty cards consisting of 15 farmers, 15 merchants, 12 nobles, 10 warlords, 9 bureaucrats and 1 philosopher. Each round, a number of dynasty cards, equal to the number of players minus one, is flipped up. Players bid by placing a card out of their bid deck face down, and everyone simultaneously reveals their bid card. The highest card gets to claim the first dynasty card, then the next highest card claims and so forth. Note that if there is a tie, the tied cards cannot claim dynasty cards. The tied cards are set aside for next round, in which the player can add to it, forming a stack. Stacks have greater value than a single card, and if stacks tie for total value, the higher card on top is the tiebreaker. Otherwise, tied stacks draw a random dynasty card from the deck. Played bid cards are then put face up into a discard section. The discarded bid cards are only brought back in when a player plays the 0 card, which is a reset card, allowing the player to get their cards back. A 0 card by itself cannot claim a dynasty card.

Dynasty cards are organized into stacks of the same type in front of a player. Once any player has two or more dynasty cards of the same type, they may take the corresponding goal card.

Two famers give the Harvest card: With this power, if you use your reset card, and have three or less bid cards in your hand, you can play an additional bid card.

Two merchants give the Market: this allows the player to play a merchant into any dynasty pile, and it counts as two of that type of person, but the merchant cannot be played if you already have a void in that person.

Two nobles give the Heir, which allows you to claim an additional dynasty card, after all players have claimed, if any are left.

Two warlords give the Emperor, which adds 0.5 to your bid, and finally two philosophers give the Palace, allowing the player to place their bid card after everyone else has placed theirs.

Whoever has the most of that particular type of card can claim the goal card, tying the current owner does nothing.

Finally, there is the Celestial Dragon. The Dragon is given out once at least four goal cards are held, and the dragon goes to the player with the fewest goal cards, and if there is a tie, it goes to the player with the fewest dynasty cards. If there is still a tie, it goes to the person who had it least recently. Before cards are claimed after bidding, the Dragon allows the player to swap for any one of them first; the player cannot take the Philosopher, or a card which he has the most of, unless those are the only cards available. Once the Dragon is swapped, anyone else can claim the dragon as a card, and it is worth 2 VPs.

Nobles range in victory point value from 2 to 4. All warlords are worth 1 VP. The philosopher gives 1 VP for each bureaucrat the player has in his stack. The game ends when there are not enough dynasty cards to start a new round. The Heir, worth 5 VPs, is given to the player with the most warlords. This game also rewards diversity: players missing any one type of dynasty card lose 3 VPs for each missing type. Finally, the person with the fewest farmers discards that them, and everyone else discards that number. Farmers then pay out: one farmer gives 2 VPs, two farmers give 5 VPs, three farmers give 5 VPs, four farmers give 14 VPs and five or more farmers give 20 VPs.

Players: Jean Jodoin, Gary Baziuk, Don Smith and Norbert

This was our second game and it started out funny. There was a 4 VP noble up for bid on the first round. That card was likely worth more than 10% of the final value of your score, so everyone obviously wanted it. But if everyone played a 7 and tied, no one would get it. Well, it turns out, all four of us played a '6'! Talk about double think.

By mid game, I got up to three farmers and got to hold on to the Harvest card. Don had the most nobles and was getting good mileage out of the Emperor by taking unclaimed dynasty cards. Don also happened to have the most warlords, taking the emperor, so he could add 0.5 to his bid. Gary had the most bureaucrats, so he couldplay after anyone else. Jean had no special cards, so he got the Celestial Dragon. Now, Jean was smart. He kept taking a dynasty card so that he would not take over anything, so he could keep holding onto the Dragon. He had around 14 dynasty cards to my 6 or 7 dynast cards at one point.

Finally, Jean took over the farmers from me, to surrender the Dragon, but not before he had a huge lead in cards. (He had built up 3 nobles or so). I am also assuming Jean remembered the rule about not being able to take the suit, that he already had the most of. To be honest, we all might have forgotten about it. But either way, Jean used the Dragon perfectly, only giving it up when he had a large number of dynasty cards,

[BGCOLOR=#FF3300]Scores[/BGCOLOR]:

Jean 34 (25 from dynasty cards, 4 from 2 VP counters, 5 farmers)
Don 28 (16 from dynasty cards, 12 from 2 VP counters,)
Norbert 22 (7 from dynasty cards, 6 from 2VP counters, 9 farmers)
Gary 6 (7 from dynasty cards, 2 from 2 VP counters, -3 for missing a suit).

When I read the rules about the blind bidding, I was a bit worried, since blind bidding isn't my favourite type of mechanism. But seeing that you see everyone's discards, and tied bids form stacks, so you don't lose the bid card, was a neat design. I like it that there are multiple paths to victory, such as pure farmers, or pure nobles, or using the Dragon card, like Jean did in our game. The game plays fairly quick as well.

Thread: Re: Scoring

cdheinrich — 2008-11-23T21:32:23+00:00

That's what I was missing, Thanks!

Thread: Re: Scoring

Zambo — 2008-11-23T21:08:56+00:00

cdheinrich wrote:
Okay sorry for being dense, but I am slightly confused. At the end we score for number of farmers (except the one who got rid of his for the least), ALL the vp's at the top of our dynasty and goal cards, and -3 for any of the dynasty type you are missing. Then there is the warlords and the philosopher.

Finally my question: Are the 18 tokens extraneous? Are they only given out at the end? When do these come into play otherwise.

1. Don't forget that everyone discards the number of farmers that the player with the least number discards; this will change the scoring for everyone else.

2. You have all of the other scoring correct.

3. Each time someone claims the Celestial Dragon, they take one of those 2 VP tokens. That's what they're for.

Hope that helps!
-Steve

Thread: Scoring

cdheinrich — 2008-11-23T20:56:41+00:00

Okay sorry for being dense, but I am slightly confused. At the end we score for number of farmers (except the one who got rid of his for the least), ALL the vp's at the top of our dynasty and goal cards, and -3 for any of the dynasty type you are missing. Then there is the warlords and the philosopher.

Finally my question: Are the 18 tokens extraneous? Are they only given out at the end? When do these come into play otherwise.

Thread: Re: Middle Kingdom Review (New Tom Lehmann Game!)

cdheinrich — 2008-11-22T03:10:22+00:00

My game package had no problems with tokens poorly punched, they all came out clean with nice edges.

Thread: Re: Ties Question

ggambill — 2008-11-20T11:59:39+00:00

Thanks for clearing that up! The ties thing works so intuitively in a two player game (no one gets anything that round unless someone has the heir), but in a three or four player games, the situation I described happens so much more often, and it just seemed strange that a losing bid would actually get first choice based on the higher bid tie. Thanks again! This seems like a great little gem of a game.

Thread: Re: Ties Question

jrebelo — 2008-11-20T06:07:52+00:00

Correct. The player who played a 3 will get to take a card and then the rest are discarded (after the heir receives his tribute, of course, should the card be in play).

Also yes to the second question. The non-tying player will get to select a card before the heir and then the rest are gone.

Thread: Ties Question

ggambill — 2008-11-20T03:54:50+00:00

I played a game with three players. Two of us tied with bids of five, and the other player played a bid of a three. According to the rules, tied bid cards are not removed, but added to the following round. They tied in the bid order, so they claim no cards this round. Does that mean that the player who played the three will actually get first pick of the cards before they are discarded since he was not part of the tie? Thanks for anyone who can help with this question

Also, same question, if in the next round they add the exact same card to their bids, and the third player played their four bid card, the rules state that the players who tied for the second time claim no cards, and draw from the top of the deck, one card each. Does this mean that the player who bid a four gets to claim a card from the auction set before it is cleared away? Thanks!

Thread: Re: Merchants in other piles still count without the Market?

Tom Lehmann — 2008-11-16T23:33:18+00:00

Yes.

Thread: Re: Merchants in other piles still count without the Market?

jrebelo — 2008-11-16T18:40:51+00:00

Yes

Thread: Merchants in other piles still count without the Market?

warrenac — 2008-11-16T17:45:59+00:00

Do Merchants placed in other piles still count as two cards of that type even if the player loses the Market?

Thread: Re: Clarification about merchants as bureaucrats

warrenac — 2008-11-16T01:13:07+00:00

Tom Lehmann wrote:
Merchants in other dynasty stacks count as two cards of that type for determining most of that type whenever this occurs:

* for goal cards, both during the game and during the final scoring (thus, merchants in a warlord stack do count for assigning the Heir).

* for most of a type across a player's cards when determining what cards that player can claim with the Dragon.

Merchants in other dynasty stacks do count as one dynasty card when breaking ties based on a player's total number of dynasty cards.

Merchants in other dynasty stacks do not count as a card of that type when scoring Noble, Warlord, Bureaucrat, or Farmer cards.

Just wanted to say thanks to Tom and Zev for chiming in and clarifying all the questions so quickly!

Thread: Re: Clarification about merchants as bureaucrats

Tom Lehmann — 2008-11-16T00:06:10+00:00

Merchants in other dynasty stacks count as two cards of that type for determining most of that type whenever this occurs:

* for goal cards, both during the game and during the final scoring (thus, merchants in a warlord stack do count for assigning the Heir).

* for most of a type across a player's cards when determining what cards that player can claim with the Dragon.

Merchants in other dynasty stacks do count as one dynasty card when breaking ties based on a player's total number of dynasty cards.

Merchants in other dynasty stacks do not count as a card of that type when scoring Noble, Warlord, Bureaucrat, or Farmer cards.

Thread: Re: Clarification about merchants as bureaucrats

Zman — 2008-11-15T14:49:40+00:00

filou wrote:
From your answer, I assume mutated-merchants don't count as farmers for the final scoring. But do they count towards warlords majority when determining who will get the Heir card at the end?

I believe it only works for goal cards. Not for scoring at all.

Zev Shlasinger, President
Z-Man Games, Inc.
www.zmangames.com

Thread: Re: Clarification about merchants as bureaucrats

filou — 2008-11-15T08:24:19+00:00

From your answer, I assume mutated-merchants don't count as farmers for the final scoring. But do they count towards warlords majority when determining who will get the Heir card at the end?

Thread: Re: Harvest/Reset Question

Tom Lehmann — 2008-11-13T04:21:23+00:00

A) Yes; from the rules "After playing a Reset card, pick up all your set aside Bid Cards at the end of the round and put them back in your hand, even if you used Harvest’s ability and chose a second card."

Note that if the card played with the Harvest doesn't form a tie, then it *does* get set aside during the claim step and therefore does get reset and put back in your hand.

B) No; see above ("at the end of the round").

C) No; the card that formed the original tie was played on the previous round; the Harvest lets you replace the reset card you played this round.

Yes, you will pick up both cards at the end of the round and put them in your hand (as tied stacks never persist and are always set aside).

Thread: Re: Harvest/Reset Question

Zman — 2008-11-12T11:48:01+00:00

swingjunkie wrote:
Ok, so what's the order on the Reset card?

A) When you play the reset card, if you choose to set it aside and play another card, do you still get to reset your cards?

B) Do you pick up cards immediately upon playing the reset card, thereby letting you play one of your previously set-aside cards this round?

C) If you play reset as the 2nd card after a tie, do you pick up the first card as well?

Answers:
A) you do get to reset all but not the card you played from your hand

B)In the case of Harvest, you can only play the cards in your hand. Then you will reset.

c) No, not the first card.

At least that is my interpretation. I could see A and C being the opposite answer but I know B is only the 3 (or fewer) cards in hand as it says that in the rules specifically.

Zev Shlasinger, President
Z-Man Games, Inc.
www.zmangames.com

Thread: Re: More questions

Tom Lehmann — 2008-11-12T10:03:17+00:00

Zev's answers are correct; the order is spelled out explicitly "apply the powers of the Palace, Harvest, and Emperor, if held by players, in this order" in the rules.

Thread: Harvest/Reset Question

swingjunkie — 2008-11-12T10:00:34+00:00

Ok, so what's the order on the Reset card?

A) When you play the reset card, if you choose to set it aside and play another card, do you still get to reset your cards?

B) Do you pick up cards immediately upon playing the reset card, thereby letting you play one of your previously set-aside cards this round?

C) If you play reset as the 2nd card after a tie, do you pick up the first card as well?

Thread: Re: More questions

tempus42 — 2008-11-11T23:58:19+00:00

Thanks a lot, Zev; I really appreciate the quick response.

Thread: Re: More questions

Zman — 2008-11-11T23:54:18+00:00

tempus42 wrote:
1) In what order are the Harvest and Palace special abilities played? (Harvest allows the player to play a 2nd card after playing Reset *if* he has 3 or fewer cards still in hand; Palace allows the player to play his card after everyone else's.) Does the Harvest player have to play his 2nd card *with* his Reset card, or does he get to see the other players' cards first?

********Palce first then Harvest - the rules I beleive give the order by virtue of their placement in the rules.

tempus42 wrote:

2) It's clear that the player of the Celestial Dragon gets first pick of the dynasty cards, but then is it true that that player *also* gets to choose a 2nd dynasty card in his normal bid order as well?

***Yes.

tempus42 wrote:

3) Does the player who finishes with the fewest Farmers (and who therefore has to discard *all* of his Farmers) automatically get the -3 penalty for not having at least 1 of each type of dynasty card?

***No. That scoring comes first. The farmer discard is thel ad=s thing. Follow the order on the score card - that is the order for scoring.

Zev Shlasinger, President
Z-Man Games, Inc.
www.zmangames.com

Thread: Re: More questions

tempus42 — 2008-11-11T23:23:04+00:00

warrenac wrote:
I
1) The play bid cards section of the rulebook has the order things get resolved: Reveal, Palace Reveal, Harvest can add, (emperor gets his autobonus)

Yes, at first we wanted to read it that way strictly as well, but then upon closer examination, we realized that the wording doesn't really explicitly say that the bullets dictate ordering. It's sort of implied, but I wanted to confirm that. (Just to avoid the argument, we actually played that the Palace and Harvest holders revealed their cards simultaneously after seeing everyone else's, which worked ok, but I suspect that's not what was intended.)

For such a simple little game, I've been really surprised how many questions we had about the rules. On first glance they don't *seem* to be that ambiguous...

Thread: Re: More questions

warrenac — 2008-11-11T21:08:20+00:00

I found answer to Q1 in the booklet:

1) The play bid cards section of the rulebook has the order things get resolved: Reveal, Palace Reveal, Harvest can add, (emperor gets his autobonus)

The rest boggle my mind...I want to play so I can be boggled in real life!

Thread: More questions

tempus42 — 2008-11-11T20:18:17+00:00

1) In what order are the Harvest and Palace special abilities played? (Harvest allows the player to play a 2nd card after playing Reset *if* he has 3 or fewer cards still in hand; Palace allows the player to play his card after everyone else's.) Does the Harvest player have to play his 2nd card *with* his Reset card, or does he get to see the other players' cards first?

2) It's clear that the player of the Celestial Dragon gets first pick of the dynasty cards, but then is it true that that player *also* gets to choose a 2nd dynasty card in his normal bid order as well? (We played that he does. I know we have only one mere data point of experience, but this ended up seeming to be *very* powerful -- the two players who swapped the Dragon back and forth for the bulk of the game, theoretically "losing" because they didn't have any goal card bonuses, each wound up with nearly double the points of the other 3 players.)

3) Does the player who finishes with the fewest Farmers (and who therefore has to discard *all* of his Farmers) automatically get the -3 penalty for not having at least 1 of each type of dynasty card?

Thread: Re: Middle Kingdom Review (New Tom Lehmann Game!)

jrebelo — 2008-11-07T07:51:17+00:00

As an update, I've had a few more games of this now. Tried the 2 player game a few days ago and had less than exciting results. I can't recommend it if you expect to be playing mostly 2 player. With five players, however, the game was a hit with several players. It played at a good pace and after it was done everyone wanted another round before we moved into the heavier games. As with most bidding games, the more people you have the better with this one.

Thread: Re: Open or closed information?

warrenac — 2008-11-05T22:47:16+00:00

Thanks Tom, this one is rapidly moving up my interest list!

Thread: Re: Open or closed information?

Tom Lehmann — 2008-11-05T10:11:42+00:00

No memory involved -- note that used bid cards are set aside *face up*, so that they can be inspected. From the rules: Bid Cards are set aside face up so that players can see which Bid Cards have been used when trying to avoid or create ties.

Thread: Open or closed information?

warrenac — 2008-11-05T08:37:44+00:00

Just wondering how much of a memory element is involved in the game - is there any closed information in this game (other than the draw order for the dynasty cards)? I guess I'm mainly worried about having to memorise who has played which bid cards...

Thread: Re: Questions

Tom Lehmann — 2008-11-05T00:05:48+00:00

Zev is correct.

1) Yes; the 3 remains (due to the tie) and the rest, being set aside, are picked up. From the rules: "After playing a Reset card, pick up all your set aside Bid Cards at the end of the round and put them back in your hand, even if you used Harvest’s ability and chose a second card."

2) Yes; the Reset card doesn't claim one (as per the reset card rules); the Dragon does (as per the Dragon rules).

3) Yes, the Heir is claimed *immediately* and, thus, will claim a left-over dynasty card in this example. From the rules: [Claiming or shifting] "the Market or Heir can affect how cards are claimed in a round."

Thread: Re: Clarification about merchants as bureaucrats

Tom Lehmann — 2008-11-04T23:42:49+00:00

Zev is correct.

The rules state that a player with the Market can add a merchant to "any other pile with at least one card in it where it will count as two cards *for determining most of that type*" [emphasis added].

They do not count as cards for of that type for any other purpose (in particular, scoring).

Thread: Re: Clarification about merchants as bureaucrats

Zman — 2008-11-04T22:04:11+00:00

jrebelo wrote:
Just wanted to confirm this one. I assume it's a yes, but it is a rule that could swing a game one way or the other, so I want to be sure. If you have merchants in your bureaucrat stack (so that 1 merchant represents 2 bureaucrats), do these bonus bureaucrats factor into philosopher scoring if you manage to take him as well?

The answer is no in my interpretation. Merchants-as-any-other faction only counts for majority.

Zev Shlasinger, President
Z-Man Games, Inc.
www.zmangames.com

Thread: Clarification about merchants as bureaucrats

jrebelo — 2008-11-04T20:50:58+00:00

Just wanted to confirm this one. I assume it's a yes, but it is a rule that could swing a game one way or the other, so I want to be sure. If you have merchants in your bureaucrat stack (so that 1 merchant represents 2 bureaucrats), do these bonus bureaucrats factor into philosopher scoring if you manage to take him as well?

Thread: Re: Any news on release date?

jrebelo — 2008-11-04T08:55:11+00:00

This came in to my local bricks and mortar games shop November 1st and I'm on an island in western Canada. We usually don't get stuff really quickly, so I would assume this is in pretty good distribution by now. However only 16 users owning at the moment, so maybe people just don't know about it. I never heard of it until I saw it coming out of the shipment boxes when I was at the shop to pick up my RFTG expansion and I noticed Tom's name on the box and had a look. Picked it up on impulse because of the price.

Image

jrebelo — 2008-11-04T04:23:51+00:00

Storage problem resolved

Image

jrebelo — 2008-11-04T04:23:28+00:00

Where you planning on putting those VP tokens, kid? Muahahaha!

Image

jrebelo — 2008-11-04T04:22:19+00:00

The contents laid out with tokens punched already

Thread: Re: Middle Kingdom Review (New Tom Lehmann Game!)

Auzette — 2008-11-04T02:40:31+00:00

I've been looking at this game and wondering if it was as good as I'd hoped (I like many of Lehman's games, though none as much as R4TG).

Thanks for the informational review

Thread: Re: Questions

UnknownParkerBrother — 2008-11-04T02:10:46+00:00

Zman wrote:
*******Yes.

At first, I thought you were swearing there.

Thread: Re: Questions

Zman — 2008-11-04T00:50:33+00:00

jrebelo wrote:
1. Let's say I have two cards left in hand. My 0-Reset card and a 3. I also control the harvest goal card. So let's say I play my 0-Reset card and my 3 as well, leaving me with no cards. Another player bids 3, which ties my total of 3. What happens? I am left without any cards in my hand, but my three must stay down because of the tie. Do I get to perform the reset now and take all cards (except for the 3) back into my hand?

*******Yes. The reset card let's you get backk the rest of the cards.

jrebelo wrote:

2. Clarification on the celestial dragon card. The rules state that the player who holds this card must exchange it for one card up for bidding. If this player bid a 0-Reset card on this hand, does the player still exchange for one of the cards before all of the bidding players get a chance to claim cards?

******I say yes.

jrebelo wrote:

3. Assume I was the top bidder in a 3 player game and the other 2 players tied their bids. I claim a Noble which is enough to give me the heir card in this hypothetical scenario. Does the noble take effect immediately so that I can claim the left over card or does it not work for the immediate turn on which it was claimed?

****I say yes.

Zev Shlasinger, President
Z-Man Games, Inc.
www.zmangames.com

Thread: Questions

jrebelo — 2008-11-04T00:28:34+00:00

1. Let's say I have two cards left in hand. My 0-Reset card and a 3. I also control the harvest goal card. So let's say I play my 0-Reset card and my 3 as well, leaving me with no cards. Another player bids 3, which ties my total of 3. What happens? I am left without any cards in my hand, but my three must stay down because of the tie. Do I get to perform the reset now and take all cards (except for the 3) back into my hand?

2. Clarification on the celestial dragon card. The rules state that the player who holds this card must exchange it for one card up for bidding. If this player bid a 0-Reset card on this hand, does the player still exchange for one of the cards before all of the bidding players get a chance to claim cards?

3. Assume I was the top bidder in a 3 player game and the other 2 players tied their bids. I claim a Noble which is enough to give me the heir card in this hypothetical scenario. Does the noble take effect immediately so that I can claim the left over card or does it not work for the immediate turn on which it was claimed?

Thread: Middle Kingdom Review (New Tom Lehmann Game!)

jrebelo — 2008-11-03T23:58:27+00:00

Middle Kingdom by Tom Lehmann

Summary

Middle Kingdom is a game of bidding and set collection themed around ancient China and designed by Tom Lehmann, designer of the very well known Race for the Galaxy. I will only quickly explain the game mechanics just to give you an idea of how it's played before I get into my thoughts on the game and components.

The game is made up of three types of cards. Bid cards, Dynasty cards and 6 Goal cards. Each player has their own set of 8 bid cards. The cards are numbered 0-7 with the 0 valued card being a "reset" card (more on this shortly). The dynasty cards (60 or 70 or so) are a big pile of cards from 5 different sets (types) of cards. The different types are: Beaurocrats, Farmers, Merchants, Warriors and Nobles. Some of the cards have VP values right on the card, while other cards lack a VP value but provide other benefits (such as points at game-end, or the ability to take a valuable goal card). Finally, there are 6 different goal cards. For each of the Dynasty card types, there is a corresponding goal card. To take the according goal card for a given type, a player must have at least 2 cards of that type (such as 2 or more farmer cards) and must also have more than any other player. These are similar to the "most" goals in the RFTG expansion or "Longest Road/Largest Army" from settlers. The goal cards move around between players as the conditions fluctuate each turn, making it sometimes benefitial to pass up a high-vp card to instead take a card which will secure an important goal card.

Each turn, a number of dynasty cards are turned up from the deck depending on the number of players. Each player then secretly places a bid card (face down) on the table and then all bids are revealed. The highest bidder gets first pick from the cards which are available. The next highest gets second pick and so forth. The goal cards can create exceptions to these rules, but that's beyond the scope of this article.

So, as you can see, it's a fairly simple mechanic. You use your bids to claim cards each round. The games ends when the dynasty card stack is exhausted. At the end of the game, you score points based on the variety of cards you collected throughout the game. Of interest here is that for each type of card you have 0 of, you get a -3VP penalty (similar to Agricola), so diversifying is a must.

Here's the real curve-ball. Each time you make a bid and claim a card, the bid card you just played gets set aside in your "used bids" pile. You cannot use that bid again until you reset your hand by playing the 0-Reset bid card. As you use your stronger bid cards, your ability to win bids dimishes and you will be forced to reset your hand. Deciding when to reset is one of the big decisions to make during the game, because resetting a turn or two earlier than the other players can have a very big impact on the next couple of turns. Also, if you play the reset card as your bid, you do not get to take a card that turn, just to make it more interesting! Again, there are some exceptions to these rules, but I won't get into that.

Price

Price is generally not something I even consider with games. If a game is good, I'll pay a fair price for it without balking. In the case of Middle Kingdom, the price is SO low, that it's almost a must-buy for anyone who is a fan of Lehmann's games. I think USD MSRP is $15. I paid just under CAD$20 for it. Probably the cheapest game I own. So, please keep this in mind when I review the components, which I feel could have been a lot better. The game is well worth the price.

Components

This is a Z-Man game and so far I have been mostly impressed with their products. I own the Z-Man print of Agricola as well as Traders of Carthage and have been impressed with them for the most part.

This game comes in a compact box, which is nice. I don't like having a large box for a game that doesn't really warrant it and this is a great little travel game. As with all Z-Man games. The box is very nicely made and well-designed (in an artistic, not practical, way). Once you open the box, this game is not quite as was anticipating. The first thing I noticed is that the card stock is not very great. It seems to be exactly the same card stock used in Traders of Carthage. A few good sessions on these cards and you will definitely notice them wearing fairly quickly. I sleeved my ToC cards immediately and plan to do the same with this game. Again, for the price, it's not a complaint, just an honest review of what's going on in this box. I wish card games would use white edges and more solid stock, like San Juan, but with the shape of an RFTG card. But I can't have everything I want, and this game cost half what RFTG does, so consider that also. The card art also doesn't do much for me. The actualy art is pretty good (the characters). But the designs on the cards are, in my humble opinion, downright hideous. The patterns around the face of the cards looks very digitized and disinteresting. The card backs, however, are the real ugly duckling. It's the most superficial thing to complain about, so please understand I take nothing away from the game for it, but the card backs are about as creatively designed as a deck of UNO cards. I don't know why one wouldn't just have some nice chinese pattern on the back or something.

Another familiar problem from Traders of Carthage became instantly apparent as well. The box insert (a plastic tray with two spots to place the cards) was not very well planned. There are a couple of sheets of VP tokens that come with the game along the top, but once you punch out the tokens, the box gives you no place to allocate them, nor a plastic baggie to contain them. The VP tokens and the cards are free to launch all over the box when it rummages around in your backpack. It becomes somewhat moot as I am going to sleeve my cards anyways which will render the inset useless anyways, but it would be nice if they would consider this before finalizing the packaging design. Even for people who don't sleeve the cards, this inset is useless because the cards are all going to spill out of the trays the minute the box is turned on its side. You're going to need a couple rubber bands to keep the cards in order and a small baggie for the tokens. Not the end of the world, but another thing that could have been taken care of by simply shaping the insert differently beforehand.

My only other complaint on the components front is the VP markers. There's a certain card in the game which can cause players to collect 2VP tokens at various times. The tokens are glossy cardboard circles you punch out of a sheet. Unfortunately, they are not very well punched from the factory and while punching them out, almost every one of them came out a bit messy with untidy edges and in some cases, the glossy backing (there's some strange film layer over the back) even came off completely. It's not a deal breaker, but again, I would have preferred to have plain old matte cardboard tokens which punch out just fine and probably cost less than this glossy stuff which ended up coming out rough. I'll even consider replacing these tokens with something novel just for fun.

Conclusions

Wow, my reviews are too long. My first conclusion is that in the future, I need to cut away the jibber jabber! But with regard to the game, I am very pleased. Despite the complaints I have about the quality of the printing, I wouldn't shy away from the game at all. The game has a very interesting mechanic. It's very easy to teach new people. It plays quickly (which is a plus for me). It's cheaper than two tickets to a movie which is probably going to be a waste of 2 hours in the first place, and each turn poses an interesting decision for each player.

Thread: Re: 2 player

jrebelo — 2008-11-03T18:59:55+00:00

Hey, I also have a clarification question regarding 2 player. I just got the game and haven't yet played, but have read the rules and I just want to make sure I understand this correctly. In 2-player, each player plays 2 bid cards per turn from a single set of bid cards, correct? We aren't meant to each use 2 sets of separate cards?

A few examples to make sure I understand correctly. In all examples, assume that no goal cards are held yet.

1: I bid 5 and 6 while my opponent bids 2 and 4. I claim any two dynasty cards and the third card is removed from play.

2: I bid 5 and 6 while my opponent bids 4 and 5. Because the 5s are a tie, I claim one card first (for my 6) and then my opponent claims second (for his 4) and our fives remain up on the table for the next round.

And so if all of this is correct, the only way for all three cards to be claimed in a 2 player game is for a player to hold the heir and then claim the remaining card?

Thread: Re: Rules questions

Tom Lehmann — 2008-10-29T08:41:20+00:00

Zev's answers are all correct.

Note that the Merchant cards in other piles count as those cards only for determining "most" of that type; during the final scoring, Merchants in a player's farming stack do not count as actual Farmers, etc.

Thread: Re: 2 player

Tom Lehmann — 2008-10-29T08:33:16+00:00

Play them both at once, then reveal (unless you have the Palace -- then you play one before reveal, then another one).

With the Harvest, you substitute for your reset card after revealing your cards.

Thread: 2 player

Bankler — 2008-10-29T02:55:47+00:00

In the two player game, each player plays two cards/round (for two separate 'hands').

Are both cards played simultaneously, or do you play one simultaneously, reveal, then the other. If you have the Harvest card, how does that work? (You may skip either the 1st or 2nd play, or must skip the second). I probably missed this in the rules, as I was trying to read and teach at the same time...

Thread: Re: Rules questions

Zman — 2008-10-29T02:17:34+00:00

I'll try to answer:

tempus42 wrote:
I just got Middle Kingdom, and I had a few uncertainties about the rules. (Apologies if a couple of these questions seem a little pedantic, but I just want to be certain I understand...)

1) Are goal cards taken instantaneously upon claiming dynasty cards? For example, in a 2-player game, say each player has 1 Warlord already, and player A bids 7 and player B bids 6. Say there are 2 Warlords available to be claimed at this point, and both players, in order, claim 1 of them, giving them 2 Warlords apiece. Does A get the Emperor as soon as he claims his 2nd Warlord, or do neither get it?

*******Yes they are taken instantaneously. So A gets it as soon as he has two warlords.

tempus42 wrote:
2) If two (or more) players' 2-card stacks are exactly tied, the rules say they draw a (random?) card from the dynasty deck. Does that mean *instead of* claiming one of the face-up dynasty cards? If there are not "enough cards for all" remaining in the deck, then *none* of tied players get to draw, correct?

*******Yes, instead of claiming. If there are none to draw then none get a card.

tempus42 wrote:

3) Is the Celestial Dragon necessarily assigned *every* turn after the 4th goal card becomes owned (assuming any ties can be broken)?

****Yes

tempus42 wrote:

4) If you own the Market and assign a Merchant to a non-Merchant pile, does that Merchant still count as 2 cards of the appropriate type even if you subsequently lose the Market? Or do your Merchants all have to revert back to being normal Merchants if you lose the Market (which then might possibly return the Market to you)?

*******Yes they still count.

Zev Shlasinger, President
Z-Man Games, Inc.
www.zmangames.com

Thread: Rules questions

tempus42 — 2008-10-28T19:22:23+00:00

I just got Middle Kingdom, and I had a few uncertainties about the rules. (Apologies if a couple of these questions seem a little pedantic, but I just want to be certain I understand...)

1) Are goal cards taken instantaneously upon claiming dynasty cards? For example, in a 2-player game, say each player has 1 Warlord already, and player A bids 7 and player B bids 6. Say there are 2 Warlords available to be claimed at this point, and both players, in order, claim 1 of them, giving them 2 Warlords apiece. Does A get the Emperor as soon as he claims his 2nd Warlord, or do neither get it?

2) If two (or more) players' 2-card stacks are exactly tied, the rules say they draw a (random?) card from the dynasty deck. Does that mean *instead of* claiming one of the face-up dynasty cards? If there are not "enough cards for all" remaining in the deck, then *none* of tied players get to draw, correct?

3) Is the Celestial Dragon necessarily assigned *every* turn after the 4th goal card becomes owned (assuming any ties can be broken)?

4) If you own the Market and assign a Merchant to a non-Merchant pile, does that Merchant still count as 2 cards of the appropriate type even if you subsequently lose the Market? Or do your Merchants all have to revert back to being normal Merchants if you lose the Market (which then might possibly return the Market to you)?

Thanks for any help!

Thread: Re: Losing stack and celestial dragon question

Tom Lehmann — 2008-10-28T03:29:25+00:00

1) Yes.
2) If you have a tie for personal most, then you can't take any of those types of cards with the Dragon (unless you have no other choice).

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Rainforhar — 2008-07-24T08:59:08+00:00

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Rainforhar — 2008-07-24T08:57:47+00:00

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Rainforhar — 2008-07-24T08:56:36+00:00

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simonh — 2008-02-14T05:28:06+00:00

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