Game: Monastery

Thread: Strategy Article at Ragnar Bros. Site

DaveD — 2008-11-08T13:16:42+00:00

I notice this interesting article on strategy at the Ragnar Bros. site.

http://www.ragnarbrothers.co.uk/html/monastery_strategies.ht...

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Richard Breese — 2008-11-07T10:36:11+00:00

Co-designer Gary Dicken (glasses) demonstrates Monastery at Essen 2008

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Richard Breese — 2008-10-29T20:49:52+00:00

Designer Gary Dicken demonstrating Monastery at Essen 2008

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helioa — 2008-10-26T15:47:27+00:00

Game in progress at Essen 2008

Thread: Re: Placing Garden/Field Tiles

punkzter — 2008-10-19T12:02:35+00:00

You are right! Thanks for setting me straight on this one.

~Brad

Thread: Re: Placing Garden/Field Tiles

DaveD — 2008-10-19T11:50:19+00:00

I think you have got confused with the rule. It is that Grey tiles cannot be placed next to Brown tiles, so it is perfectly legal for the Field and Piggery to be next to one another as they are both Brown.

Gardens are grey, however, so may not be placed next to any Brown tile.

Thread: Placing Garden/Field Tiles

punkzter — 2008-10-18T21:03:19+00:00

Obviously, Garden and Field tiles break the rule that brown toil tiles cannot be placed adjacent to each other since these tiles score more points when they are built in groups. BUT, the game example clearly shows a Field tile about to be constructed next to a piggery, which is a brown tile.

Does this mean that Garden and Field (Brown tiles) can be placed adjacent to other Brown Toil tiles?

Thread: Re: Caylus-like play order

GeoMan — 2008-10-06T00:01:16+00:00

I don't see any benefits by changing the turn order. You should try to become Abbot because you get to play first (so players playing after you can help with building construction), you have first choice of letter from the letter grid and you get to imprison a monk if the Prison tile is on the board.

Thread: Re: Tile drawing randomness

r3gamer — 2008-10-06T00:00:26+00:00

I like that Geo. Nice and simple.

I still do like the idea of having some face up tiles for the 'tile-swap' action. You either swap for one of a set number of face up tiles, OR go for a random pull from the bag. The way it's written in the manual, IMO, seems like an expensive option (basically you pass, draw a random tile, and consequently will end up with an extra tile at game end = more VP penalty......[assuming the stable isn't in play])

So maybe do it your way, and always have 1 tile per player face up that resets every few phases? I don't know...

I still haven't been able to try the variant above since my last post here.

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GeoMan — 2008-10-05T23:44:39+00:00

Meeting in the Abbey...

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GeoMan — 2008-10-05T23:42:24+00:00

Monks closeup

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GeoMan — 2008-10-05T23:40:28+00:00

3 player game

Thread: Re: Tile drawing randomness

GeoMan — 2008-10-05T23:31:22+00:00

You can also try:

1. A player with only brown tiles in his starting hand shows the tiles to the other players, discards them, draws 3 new tiles from the bag and then adds the discarded tiles to the bag. Repeat if you get all brown tiles again.

or

2. Give a straight path tile to each player. The players draw 2 tiles instead of 3 from the bag as their starting hand.

Thread: Caylus-like play order

ja_n — 2008-08-19T11:10:35+00:00

Another thought about variants in Monastery - maybe the game could benefit from introducing the playing order mechanism similar to the one used in Caylus? The new Abot becomes starting player, but other players play in the previous order - previous starting player becomes second, previous second becomes third etc. Of course this should be reflected by some kind of pawns or markers somewhere close to the letter chart.

Thread: Re: Tile drawing randomness

r3gamer — 2008-08-18T19:18:47+00:00

ja_n wrote:
The tiles are discarded face up close to the board. Those face up tiles can be drawn just as if they were inside the bag by other players. So deciding to continue drawing you agree to help other players a bit too.

I was in favor of drawing 2 more tiles for each service round, but allowing players the chance to draw from the face up discards is a cool idea too. I'll try it next time.

Thread: Tile drawing randomness

ja_n — 2008-08-18T13:46:10+00:00

The game plays very nice with 3 or 4 players. But after playing a few times with a few players I believe that there is one problem in this game that can ruin a game for some. If you draw only brown tiles in the first Matins round, you might struggle in the first one/two rounds.

My idea is to allow players draw 2 more tiles any time they use the tile bag. If they are not satisfied with tiles drawn, they can continue drawing up to 2 tiles more than in the original rules. Than they must discard as many tiles as drawn additionally (if you draw 5 tiles in the first round, you discard 2 tiles). The tiles are discarded face up close to the board. Those face up tiles can be drawn just as if they were inside the bag by other players. So deciding to continue drawing you agree to help other players a bit too.

Thread: Re: Study and Toil: Early experiences with Monastery

ja_n — 2008-08-18T13:31:16+00:00

Styfen wrote:
There are a few issues with this game that can result in problems, so far we've found that the end game breaks down into blessing swapping - there are a finite number of blessings in the game and if there are none left you force other players to return one each and then collect them.

I believe that it's not other players but all players (including yourself). So acquiring a blessing is not a good way to take points from others.

Styfen wrote:
I wanted to note here that there are exactly enough tiles for every player to get their full quota if you play with four players, so every tile will make an appearance and you're going to have 13 tiles to play during the game to avoid getting negative points.

Every full day in the game includes drawing 6 tiles and laying 6 tiles. But you have the initial Secret way tile behind your screen in the begining of the game. So you will probably end the game with one tile left (if the building with tile laying icon does not appear early enough in the game). This has nothing to do with the number of players or with finishing your quota - that depends on how much points you squeeze out of the tiles you get and how quickly you do it (to get cheaper letters).

Styfen wrote:
You have to be careful with construction tiles as well, don't go filling out a tile if you don't have enough monks to do it yourself on the board without leaving a serious incentive for the other players to finish it (usually the best or second best slot on the tile) because they could quite easily ignore it and leave you trapped there until next service.

Your monks are not trapped there. They can leave the tile next round (monks are allowed to leave a not fully occupied tile if they start the round there). But it certainly costs you points.

Thread: Re: Study and Toil: Early experiences with Monastery

Styfen — 2008-08-12T11:29:33+00:00

dumpty wrote:
I'm not sure I completely understand, having only played once. You are saying that a gray Secret Way is superior to a brown Secret Way. Is that because they can be placed near a gray Study building, which tend to be worth more points for praying?
Sorry for not replying earlier, I forgot to check this review.

That in part is what I'm saying, it's easier to place them near to gray tiles which are worth more. The only time we've seen one of the brown secret ways be effective is when the green SW was positioned adjacent to the farm and the stables. But that required the Green player to have both of those tiles in his set (and it's very hard to manipulate what tiles you have in this game).

The yellow one is awesome, playing as yellow you build two tiles out (preferably gardens or gray tiles) drop down your Secret way and then just expand from it. You tend to end up with a cluster of high scoring buildings that you can walk to straight from the abbey - it's also easy to drop a pathway if you want to create a brown area off it because you're likely to have drawn one by that time because you've drawn at least two extra tiles to assist you in setting it up. It's harder to pull this off with the blue and green ones because you need those pathways to set it up asap (and ideally you want to be at least 3 tiles away from the abbey before you start so you get first claim on everything).

Further play has revealed that the red one is a lot weaker than I first thought; the one exit is seriously limiting, you need to build the cemetery next to a 4 way tile for it to be effective and even then it's not that useful. But Red does tend to go first in the most phases so it balances out.

Basically the tiles are compensation for the normal turn order that the game goes in, so the person who goes last most of the time (yellow) gets the best tile. (The red one still seems to be better than the blue one).

I totally agree on the rulebook, they could do with a couple of independant checkers before they go to print. I also find their rules hard to follow

Thread: Re: Confused re Rules

DaveD — 2008-08-02T08:52:49+00:00

The cost of a tile (or monk) is entirely dependent on the column it was in when you bought it, so if it is the first column you pay the price for that column, in the second the price for that one and so on up. If the first letter I buy is from the 5th column I pay 5 for it, if I later buy form the 3rd column I pay 3 for that one. Normally I would buy monks from the cheapest first, but in the case of letters this is probably not going to be the case.

You don't have to remember how many you have bought because the trigger for the price drop is when all the letters on your personal phrase are covered by tiles. It does not matter whether those tiles were put there by you or another player.

Thread: Re: Confused re Rules

nmrosen — 2008-08-01T19:51:00+00:00

Ok, I think i am almost there. The rule for monks is now clear. However, are you saying that when you buy letters, regardless of its position on the chart, the cost goes up just like the cost of buying monks (using the amounts at the bottom or top of the table)? I guess that means each tiem you buy a letter you have to somehow remember how many you have already bought (because they could be on your own or on other people's inddividual boards after you bought them?

I'm sorry to ask so many questions since you have been so patient. I'm not usually this dense, but these rules are just unusually tough for me to grasp.

Thread: Re: Confused re Rules

DaveD — 2008-08-01T16:11:53+00:00

At the beginning of the game a monk of each colour is placed on each cross symbol on the letter grid. To buy a monk you take it from the grid and the price is that along the top (or bottom if you have filled your phrase).

So your second monk will cost 1, your third 3, fourth 6, fifth 10.

The rules actually say you can buy monks for other people as well, but I find it difficult to imagine the situation in which you would want to.

Thread: Re: Confused re Rules

nmrosen — 2008-08-01T15:29:29+00:00

Although i still find the rules anything but confusing and disjointed, your assistance has helped tremendously. One last question -- I think I now understand how the prices of letters move, but I still don't understand how the prices of new monks are determined. How does the prices on the letters chart affect the cost of getting a new monk or if they are totally independent, how are monks priced throughout the game?

Thread: Re: Confused re Rules

andyl — 2008-08-01T13:53:28+00:00

DaveD wrote:
andyl wrote:
Of course if you buy someone else's letter they get a blessing

If you play a letter in someone else's phrase, you get a blessing, not them.

That's right - sorry been a while since I played it and was going on memory.

Thread: Re: Confused re Rules

DaveD — 2008-08-01T13:43:28+00:00

andyl wrote:
Of course if you buy someone else's letter they get a blessing

If you play a letter in someone else's phrase, you get a blessing, not them.

Thread: Re: Confused re Rules

andyl — 2008-08-01T13:21:54+00:00

nmrosen wrote:
Thank you both for the help. I understand that the different columns in the letters chart show different prices for the letters or monks throughout the chart. Does that mean that if you want to purchase a letter or monk you can decide to purchase any letter no matter where it is on the chart at any allowable time, for the price either at the top or the bottom of the particular column the letter is in or do you have to make your purchases from right to left, buying up everything in a column before you can purchase from the column to its left?

Yes you can buy any letter you want (and can afford) - it doesn't even have to be yours. Of course if you buy someone else's letter they get a blessing - but the section of the rulebook dealing with buying letters is quite clear. You can buy another player's monk - but that seems a waste of money. You can buy more than one letter (or monk, or combination) if you can afford it.

Thread: Re: Confused re Rules

DaveD — 2008-08-01T13:20:48+00:00

The first round of the game is a service round, during which you cannot play any tiles. The only thing you do in a service round is elect the new abbot (skipped on the first round) and collect a number of tiles, which is 3 for Matins (the first round)

So by the time you get to the second round (a study round), which is the first chance you get to play tiles, you will have 4 tiles in total. You may be able to play any of them, but bear in mind the restriction that Brown and Grey tiles may not be played next to each other. 2 of the secret way tiles are brown tiles and so may not be played adjacent to the abbey.

Thread: Re: Confused re Rules

nmrosen — 2008-08-01T13:03:47+00:00

I also am confused by your reply. When you say taht you start the game with your secret tile, does that mean that you play your secret tile and attach it to the large chapel tile in your first turn? Exactly when do you get the other three tiles in the first turn and if you get them before play commences, can you place one of them instead of the secret tile to start with?

Thread: Re: Confused re Rules

nmrosen — 2008-08-01T13:00:54+00:00

Thank you both for the help. I understand that the different columns in the letters chart show different prices for the letters or monks throughout the chart. Does that mean that if you want to purchase a letter or monk you can decide to purchase any letter no matter where it is on the chart at any allowable time, for the price either at the top or the bottom of the particular column the letter is in or do you have to make your purchases from right to left, buying up everything in a column before you can purchase from the column to its left?

Thread: Re: Confused re Rules

taraba — 2008-07-31T20:07:47+00:00

DaveD did a good job answering your questions.

DO you move your monk pieces on that chart?

I'm not sure what you mean by that. You don't move them around the chart. They can be bought just like the tiles with the price being the price listed at the top of the column, or the bottom if you fill your phrase in front of your screen. Monks that are bought are placed on the Abbey where you start the game. Special buildings that let you swap letter tiles on this chart don't let you swap monks.

Thread: Re: Confused re Rules

DaveD — 2008-07-31T13:14:04+00:00

nmrosen wrote:

Where does it specifically say how many tiles you start out with at the beginning of the game.
You start the game with 1 tile (your secret way), but the first round is a service round when you get another 3 tiles.

How does the letter chart work? What is the difference between the values at the top of the chart and at the bottom and when do you use each? DO you move your monk pieces on that chart?
When you score points, you use them to buy from the letter grid (including monks) at the prices shown across the top. When you have completely filled the phrase on your screen with letters, the price immediately drops to that shown across the bottom. You don't move the monks on the chart. (Edited to add mention of monks because I missed that part of the question)

Is there a clear listing somewhere of the sequence of play and what your choices are in each? The summaries I have seen are just not so clear.

Have you looked at this reference on the Ragnar site http://www.ragnarbrothers.co.uk/assets/applets/Monastery_Ref...

Thread: Confused re Rules

nmrosen — 2008-07-31T13:02:02+00:00

We tried to play the game last night and had a very dificult time deciphering the rules. Without the examples of play on the Ragnor Brothers site it would have been completely helpless. Even with that aid, we still suspended play after a while because we could not find some things in the rules.

Where does it specifically say how many tiles you start out with at the beginning of the game.

How does the letter chart work? What is the difference between the values at the top of the chart and at the bottom and when do you use each? DO you move your monk pieces on that chart?

Is there a clear listing somewhere of the sequence of play and what your choices are in each? The summaries I have seen are just not so clear.

Thread: Re: Collecting monks

qzhdad — 2008-07-22T14:34:23+00:00

We thought it might be useful to have another monk to complete a building, but before I spent the points, I'd want to make a deal and I don't think the game would be as much fun with lots of negotiation.

Thread: Re: Collecting monks

barbate — 2008-07-22T11:10:05+00:00

Thanks, for the fast answers...

Thread: Re: Collecting monks

DaveD — 2008-07-22T10:28:55+00:00

The only possible use I can see is to influence the election if a service round is next. Maybe you can arrange to be in a better turn order position for the next rounds.

However this is very short term and I'm sure the long term benefit to the player you are helping would outweigh any advantage you might get. I certainly can't imagine I would do it unless, say I had 4 points left to spend, in which case I could buy someone's 3 point monk and still get a blessing. Even then, though, I don't expect I would do it.

Thread: Re: Collecting monks

SteveK2 — 2008-07-22T10:20:56+00:00

I wondered about this, too.

The only thing I could come up with is that maybe (just maybe) you want to influence who becomes the new abbot - adding player A's monk to the abbey might prevent player B from becoming abbot.

Thread: Collecting monks

barbate — 2008-07-22T10:02:31+00:00

Hello,

I just got this game, and i can already tell i will absolutely love it.

The rules say:
"A player may choose to collect a monk belonging to another player and place it in the Abbey (a useful tactical ploy sometimes). The monk still belongs to to the other player.

I have got a question!
Why useful this ploy?

Thanks for the answer!
-barbate-

Thread: Lost rules...

Midori — 2008-07-17T15:00:08+00:00

Hi there,

Sorry to bother you, but I lost my exemplar of the rules. I only found the German version on the official website (and the FAQ)... could anyone scan them for me ? I know this means a bit of work

Thank you...

Midori

Thread: Re: Things to Remember

dumpty — 2008-07-12T00:26:59+00:00

DaveD wrote:
dumpty wrote:

Icon effects can only be used when the monk is working or about to pray

A monk can use an icon regardless of whether it’s a Study or Toil round.

This is covered in your previous thread, where it is comfirmed that your second statement is true, which means that the first statement is not quite true because the icon effect can be used when a monk is unable to work because it is the wrong type of round.

Of course, you're right. So let's just delete the first line.

Thread: Re: Brewery

DaveD — 2008-07-11T17:09:00+00:00

The answer would be yes. During a service or night round the monk would stand up anyway so he could not be praying.

Thread: Re: Chapel

DaveD — 2008-07-11T17:06:47+00:00

The rules for the Chapel on page 9 state that the requirement to be alone does not apply to the Chapel.

Thread: Brewery

Jester — 2008-07-11T16:42:22+00:00

Is merely having a monk standing in the brewery during a service or night round sufficient to activate the brewery's power? What if the monk is praying in the brewery?

Thread: Chapel

Jester — 2008-07-11T16:41:11+00:00

Normally, in order to pray, you must be alone on a tile during a scoring phase of a study/toil round. For the chapel, must you be the alone on the tile other than praying monks? In other words, to begin praying, must you be alone, then the second player who goes to the chapel to pray must be alone except for other praying monks? Otherwise, if there are 2 different players' monks standing in the chapel, the first one to score would be able to set a monk praying that would preclude the second player from being able to study there. The exact behavior here is a little unclear.

Thread: Re: Things to Remember

SteveK2 — 2008-07-11T16:37:11+00:00

DaveD wrote:
SteveK2 wrote:

- a monk can move off an unconstructed tile if he starts the turn there

A monk that starts the turn on an unconstructed tile can't move off if it is fully occupied.

ooops ... corrected.

Thread: Re: Things to Remember

DaveD — 2008-07-11T16:34:11+00:00

SteveK2 wrote:

- a monk can move off an unconstructed tile if he starts the turn there

A monk that starts the turn on an unconstructed tile can't move off if it is fully occupied.

Thread: Re: Things to Remember

SteveK2 — 2008-07-11T16:23:57+00:00

A few more easily-forgotten things that I'd add:

- you can choose to exchange a tile with the bag rather than place a tile

- a monk cannot move through an unconstructed tile unless it is fully occupied

- a monk can move off an unconstructed tile that's not fully occupied if he starts the turn there

- a monk can move from one space on an unconstructed tile to another empty space on that tile for 0 movement points

- you can leave blessings on an unconstructed tile to encourage another player's monk to join you

- you can only make one monk pray each work/toil round

- praying monks don't count for movement points

- if you buy a tile and place it (face down) on another player's letter grid, don't forget to take a blessing, but remember that this blessing cannot be used in this scoring round.

Thread: Re: Things to Remember

DaveD — 2008-07-11T16:02:45+00:00

dumpty wrote:

Icon effects can only be used when the monk is working or about to pray

A monk can use an icon regardless of whether it’s a Study or Toil round.

This is covered in your previous thread, where it is comfirmed that your second statement is true, which means that the first statement is not quite true because the icon effect can be used when a monk is unable to work because it is the wrong type of round.

Thread: Re: Things to Remember

DaveD — 2008-07-11T15:56:36+00:00

dumpty wrote:
One of the special tiles (the Cathedral?) is an exception to the one praying monk rule and can take up to three monks.

That would be the Chapel.

Thread: Things to Remember

dumpty — 2008-07-11T15:49:42+00:00

I don't want to call this an FAQ, but here are some things you should try to remember when playing Monastery. Please comment on my accuracy.

- - - - -

Because the Abbey is gray, you cannot place a brown building adjacent to it.

You may (and should) leave some of the better scoring boxes available on unconstructed buildings to encourage others to join you in completing it.

During Service rounds, only the praying monks are returned (standing up again) to the Abbey! That's big!

If you join two tile groups together, you need to deal with tile placement restrictions (4 Path, 4 Field, 2 Garden), so you might not be able to join them.

WORK and ICONS

More than one monk can work in a constructed building on the correct Study/Toil round. Each player with a monk there can use the building's icon.

You can work (study) in the Abbey and get 1 point there.

A monk can use an icon regardless of whether it’s a Study or Toil round.

PRAYING

A monk can pray at any constructed building not built the current round, no matter what sort of Study/Toil round it is.

A monk cannot pray in a building unless they are the only monk there.

One of the special tiles, the Chapel, is an exception to the one praying monk rule and can take up to three monks.

Moving a monk to a constructed building that an opponent hopes to pray in will prevent him from praying.

Thread: Re: Clarification on Praying

SteveK2 — 2008-07-10T18:14:15+00:00

I, too, had a little doubt about using the icon when you're neither working nor about to pray, so I emailed Gary Dicken.

He confirmed my understanding - you can use an icon on a tile irrespective of whether it's a toil or a study round.

Thread: Re: Clarification on Praying

DaveD — 2008-07-10T16:27:11+00:00

As I was explained the rules, the icon effects can only be used when the monk is working or about to pray and this seems to be confirmed by the reference sheet here.

http://www.ragnarbrothers.co.uk/assets/applets/Monastery_Ref...

This rules out use when a monk is praying from a previous turn. I also thought that the effects could not be used in a turn when a monk could not work the tile, unless about to pray, but neither the rules or the reference sheet seem to specifically exclude this.

This of course excepts any tiles used at particular times such as the brew house.

Thread: Re: Clarification on Praying

joelee — 2008-07-10T15:48:48+00:00

I read the rules to mean that you can pray at any building that wasn't constructed in the current round regardless of what kind of turn it is as long as that is the only monk present.

As for the icon buildings under the Icon tiles heading of the rules it says: "Each icon tile has an effect which can be used when a monk occupies that tile. Any number of icon effects can be used, but each effect may be used only once per player's turn."

We took that to mean that the icons can be used regardless of what kind of turn it is and in addition your monk may score points if he is praying or working at the appropriate time.

Thread: Re: Study and Toil: Early experiences with Monastery

dumpty — 2008-07-10T14:50:33+00:00

The Rules. I always seem to have trouble decoding Ragnar rules for some reason. Their logic and my logic just don't match up.

Thread: Re: Study and Toil: Early experiences with Monastery

dumpty — 2008-07-10T14:46:41+00:00

As far as the "all browns" starting problem, perhaps a house mulligan rule could be added. If you draw three brown tiles at start, you may discard one and redraw until you get a playable tile--gray, path, or feature. Maybe the one you discard should be chosen at random.

Thread: Re: Study and Toil: Early experiences with Monastery

dumpty — 2008-07-10T14:41:01+00:00

Styfen wrote:

Secret Ways

As you can see the Red and Yellow tiles are both gray icon tiles while the blue and green are brown. This means that the red and yellow tiles are significantly stronger than the blue and green ones, the red one is somewhat limited because it only has one path, but the yellow one is the best secret way in the game. The green one isn't bad as it has 4 paths, but brown tiles are harder to place in this game. I think this is supposed to balance things out as the Red player goes first for three rounds, but in truth the red tile is still better than the blue one and only slightly worse than the green.

I'm not sure I completely understand, having only played once. You are saying that a gray Secret Way is superior to a brown Secret Way. Is that because they can be placed near a gray Study building, which tend to be worth more points for praying?

Thread: Re: rules clarifications

SteveK2 — 2008-07-10T13:45:13+00:00

dumpty wrote:
Taking someone else's letter, I believe, either 1) allows you to place it gold side up for scoring in your display, as long as it's one of your letters too; or 2) allows you to deny points at game end to your opponent by placing it on their display, black side up.

That's correct, though when you say "your opponent" it's not restricted to the player collecting the phrase from which the letter was taken - you can place it black side up on any one of your opponent's displays as long as they need that letter.

Generally, I find it simpler to think of the letter grid as a big pile of letters that don't 'belong' to any player, just take what you need, at the best available price.

Thread: Clarification on Praying

dumpty — 2008-07-10T13:42:40+00:00

I wasn't 100% sure, but when a monk prays, they can do so at a constructed building. The question is, can they do this at any building, no matter what kind of turn it is? For example, can a monk pray at a Study building on a Toil turn and score its points?

We didn't see anything prohibiting this in the rules, whereas in the Work section, it is very specific about such things. I took that to mean that on a Toil turn, the only way to get points out of a Study building, or use its icon, is to Pray. If it was a Study turn, you'd also have the option of Working (less points, but you don't tie up a monk for the next couple of turns).

How am I doing?

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Styfen — 2008-07-01T19:52:20+00:00

The four secret way tiles

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otscotty — 2008-06-28T06:49:49+00:00

Count Your Blessings

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DaveD — 2008-06-05T17:44:18+00:00

The Letter tiles, double sided, one side large letter with yellow border, other small with black border.

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hammo — 2008-06-03T12:39:45+00:00

The turn dial